Interesting article on RPS about companies like Matrix putting their games on Steam and whether Battlefront should do the same. I have a love/hate affair with RPS...some of their articles are unreadable yet the recurring Flare Path articles can be quite good.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/01/09/the-flare-path-full-steam-astern/#more-261519
I'd love to have CM on Steam. At a minimum it'd clear off a good portion of my desktop. That said, I completely understand why a small start-up like BFC that's "made its bones" in its niche wouldn't want to suddenly come crawling to the lads at Valve and accommodate to its terms.
Interesting read and a good piece.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
I love the convenience of Steam when it comes to installing/re-installing and patching my games, but I understand why Battlefront would be hesitant. It seems like most people on Steam want to pay next to nothing for these games then complain about/insult them and move on after a day or so to play something else. I have and love a lot of Battlefront's WWII games and can tell a lot of work and thought went into them. I think the price is fair. But put any one of them on Steam and watch the complaints start on how it's an old game and should be priced at $10. ::)
Quote from: Cyrano on January 09, 2015, 09:37:03 AM
I'd love to have CM on Steam. At a minimum it'd clear off a good portion of my desktop. That said, I completely understand why a small start-up like BFC that's "made its bones" in its niche wouldn't want to suddenly come crawling to the lads at Valve and accommodate to its terms.
Interesting read and a good piece.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Plus they must have seen what a beating any game can take once it gets into the sights of the hate-a-game industry. Right now I'm reading the TWcenters stuff on Attila and a surprising number of posts go something like:
Is Attila going to have that (insert traditionally hated thing about Rome II)?
Of course it is. Attila is the same game as Rome II (this line holds up even when the same traditional line of hate-a-game says
that a problem in Rome II is that it should have had everything that is in Attila)
(and this goes on despite posts that show the traditionally hated thing never existed even in Rome II).
Or: Attila is incorrect because it has more than one form of Christianity. (This is extremely puzzling because religious controversy and various Christian and/or other sects are the one thing we know for sure was a huge deal for all three of the Empires in the game)
Or: Attila is a horrible game because it doesn't have Hadrians wall (this one is odd because there is a wall, but it seems to follow the shorter line of the Antonine wall -- which isn't noted, but why note anything when you can just work on hating the game even before it is released -- because: Remember how bad Rome II is (this is a fundamental hate-a-game theme: remember how much you hate that game).
Since battlefront already seems to face a hardened crew of hate-a-game enthusiasts, going on Steam would only feed the hate-a-game industry.
While Steam commenters are-Steam commenters, putting the games on there does give them a wider audience.
Can someone explain what RPS means by "the Flare Path" ?? Is the fact that I'm not a member of the British Commonwealth what prevents me from understanding what the hell it means?
Lemme guess -- it's a Python thing, isn't it -- or cockney slang ? :)
Quote from: sandman2575 on January 09, 2015, 10:03:00 AM
Can someone explain what RPS means by "the Flare Path" ?? Is the fact that I'm not a member of the British Commonwealth what prevents me from understanding what the hell it means?
Lemme guess -- it's a Python thing, isn't it -- or cockney slang ? :)
I understand it to be an aviation term: a path of flares laid out to guide planes in through fog or darkness or both to safe landings on airfields -- back in the days before other landing aids.
So the element of guiding through a fog makes sense for a series of reviews of games.
Thanks Meng -- makes sense -- although, even allowing for RPS's penchant for, shall we say, extravagantly peculiar writing and turns of phrase, the 'flare path' metaphor is a tad... oblique.
Quote from: sandman2575 on January 09, 2015, 10:47:39 AM
Thanks Meng -- makes sense -- although, even allowing for RPS's penchant for, shall we say, extravagantly peculiar writing and turns of phrase, the 'flare path' metaphor is a tad... oblique.
Given what comes up in the flare path foxer, just plain 'flare path' is not as bad as it could have been. there was also a play that came out in 1942 in the UK with that name and it was revived in 2011 in the UK. (thanks Wikipedia!) So maybe not so obscure in the UK. As you suspected.
I don't believe Steam can arbitrarily put games on sales these days, so BF would still have control over their prices. I think the volume of new customers would dwarf any fees paid to Valve, and not just the people who are bothered by BF's wacky DRM. I know the biggest reason by far that I've held out with any of the new stuff is because of the headaches of the DRM. I'm still leaning towards taking the plunge this year, but it'd be a no-brainer if it used Steam's DRM instead of BFs.
Quote from: smittyohio on January 09, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
I think the volume of new customers would dwarf any fees paid to Valve, and not just the people who are bothered by BF's wacky DRM.
Not sure I agree. (Incidentally, it bothers me that Tim Stone's RPS article doesn't take a position on whether BF should go Steam. He seems to imply that "BF is missing out on a big opportunity," but I wish he'd just come out and say what he thinks.)
Would Steam customers really flock to Combat Mission? Have they flocked to Graviteam Tactics since those games became available? I don't know, but I strongly suspect GravTactics remains a very niche Steam offering, and that CMX2 would get a similar reception.
Like all of you, I'd love to have the convenience of having CMX2 on Steam. It would be awesome, no question, to simplify the crazy updating / module adding process (although it sounds like BF is making headway in that direction regardless, thankfully). But BF seems to have pretty sound reasons for believing the drawbacks of Steam outweigh the benefits. They're going to do what's best for their business, after all. If they thought Steam would really help their bottom line, they'd go for it. They're not opposed to Steam on ideological grounds.
Quote from: smittyohio on January 09, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
I don't believe Steam can arbitrarily put games on sales these days, so BF would still have control over their prices. I think the volume of new customers would dwarf any fees paid to Valve, and not just the people who are bothered by BF's wacky DRM. I know the biggest reason by far that I've held out with any of the new stuff is because of the headaches of the DRM. I'm still leaning towards taking the plunge this year, but it'd be a no-brainer if it used Steam's DRM instead of BFs.
I suspect BF's now ingrained terror of dropping such annoying DRM in order to sell stuff through Steam is also a big factor. They're married to it and not getting a divorce anytime in the foreseeable future.
I could enjoy some BF titles if they weren't hamstrung by BF's DRM and packaging nuttery. But they are obviously terrified of ever leaving their comfort zone while denigrating other wargame publishers who've begun using Steam. I see their tact is as honed as usual. ::)
To be sure, Steam has some sucky CS but it
is convenient and absolutely expands a title's exposure to the masses, and therefore sales. If BF wants to use the ,"we are niche and always will be" excuse then that's exactly what they'll be, especially with all the annoyances currently involved. Don't want to boost sales because you're stubborn? Fine. :idiot2:
Quote from: Nefaro on January 09, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Quote from: smittyohio on January 09, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
I don't believe Steam can arbitrarily put games on sales these days, so BF would still have control over their prices. I think the volume of new customers would dwarf any fees paid to Valve, and not just the people who are bothered by BF's wacky DRM. I know the biggest reason by far that I've held out with any of the new stuff is because of the headaches of the DRM. I'm still leaning towards taking the plunge this year, but it'd be a no-brainer if it used Steam's DRM instead of BFs.
I suspect BF's now ingrained terror of dropping such annoying DRM in order to sell stuff through Steam is also a big factor. They're married to it and not getting a divorce anytime in the foreseeable future.
I could enjoy some BF titles if they weren't hamstrung by BF's DRM and packaging nuttery. But they are obviously terrified of ever leaving their comfort zone while denigrating other wargame publishers who've begun using Steam. I see their tact is as honed as usual. ::)
To be sure, Steam has some sucky CS but it is convenient and absolutely expands a title's exposure to the masses, and therefore sales. If BF wants to use the ,"we are niche and always will be" excuse then that's exactly what they'll be, especially with all the annoyances currently involved. Don't want to boost sales because you're stubborn? Fine. :idiot2:
I'd be happy if they were on Steam, but after their sales went up briefly they would be annihilated by millions of people who would be very upset when Sherman tanks turned out to be reasonably good tanks. We would never hear the end of it the first time a Tiger was knocked out at 300 yds by a Sherman (of any kind). Better to let the sleeping Tiger people stay in their various paradises.
On the other hand, think of all the money to be made by a small start-up company that released a good working PC game model of an atmospheric steam engine as a prototiger tank! Like farm simulator 1700, but with uberpanzertruppen!
Not much of an article, just a collection of quotes from Steve at BFC. Not sure the intent, though after reading the thread in question(!) I think perhaps a thinly veiled attempt at indirect pressure?! Apart from BFC and Valve themselves, I really have a hard time seeing someone being 'passionate' about whether BFC's products ever come on Steam or not.
From the regular goings on at Steam re price, likely that is the number one motive for many. The perceived DRM issue is nonexistent and just a dead red flag. I could see some form of streamlining modules, patches etc as that has been cumbersome to date though I understand now, haven't tried it myself, that has been resolved with their new master installers.
Has a game like Operation Star become a hit since migrating to Steam? Interesting question, this would suggest no: http://steamcharts.com/app/275290#6m (http://steamcharts.com/app/275290#6m)
I tend to agree with the "made its bones" comment. BFC were one of the first, if not the first, to go to independent internet sales, so having that credibility and established customer base, it is not surprising they are reluctant to entertain the idea. Unless of course Valve gave them an offer they couldn't refuse. :)
Quote from: MengJiao on January 09, 2015, 12:05:37 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on January 09, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
I suspect BF's now ingrained terror of dropping such annoying DRM in order to sell stuff through Steam is also a big factor. They're married to it and not getting a divorce anytime in the foreseeable future.
I could enjoy some BF titles if they weren't hamstrung by BF's DRM and packaging nuttery. But they are obviously terrified of ever leaving their comfort zone while denigrating other wargame publishers who've begun using Steam. I see their tact is as honed as usual. ::)
To be sure, Steam has some sucky CS but it is convenient and absolutely expands a title's exposure to the masses, and therefore sales. If BF wants to use the ,"we are niche and always will be" excuse then that's exactly what they'll be, especially with all the annoyances currently involved. Don't want to boost sales because you're stubborn? Fine. :idiot2:
I'd be happy if they were on Steam, but after their sales went up briefly they would be annihilated by millions of people who would be very upset when Sherman tanks turned out to be reasonably good tanks. We would never hear the end of it the first time a Tiger was knocked out at 300 yds by a Sherman (of any kind). Better to let the sleeping Tiger people stay in their various paradises.
On the other hand, think of all the money to be made by a small start-up company that released a good working PC game model of an atmospheric steam engine as a prototiger tank! Like farm simulator 1700, but with uberpanzertruppen!
BF, and other wargame companies, already get such steady complaints as your example. It wouldn't be anything new. I suspect you've been around the digital grog community long enough to have seen plenty of that. :D
Even niche games get an obvious boost in sales when they go Steam. Hell.. I've seen a steady influx of new players getting into Rise Of Flight over the past months, since it went Steam, and quite a few of them are so new to proper flight simming that they've never owned a joystick before. If a full-on flight sim can drudge up new fans of a niche genre like that, then it's nothing to blow off lightly. I expect flight sims to be far more "niche" than a real-time tactical game.
I'm sure the BF guys aren't allergic to making more money, only set in their ways. If they don't want to expand their games' exposure, then it's their loss. I think their decision has more to do with control. BF can't bring themselves to get rid of a maligned DRM system and their screwy patch structuring because those would likely be the big bone of contention.
Let's take a very recent example of a niche wargame...Command.
- They started out on Matrix and seemed to do reasonably well.
- The forums were full of what I would call "real" wargamers who really like naval and were willing to pay the price. There was some
discussion on pricing, but about $90 vs $60.
- They went to Steam and according to them, it was very successful.
- They took a huge beating on Steam forums about high cost...$90 vs $10 mostly. Also a lot of discussion on graphics.
- The forum was bombarded with a lot of people who didn't have a clue and were staring to get upset about tutorials and documentation, as well as price.
- The forums have not completely recovered, but have calmed down.
Overall, the devs seem to think it was a good thing. I do think it helps marketing a game, but be prepared for the pain of the Steam forums and the bleed over into your own forums.
But my opinion is that is has slowed down the updates of the game. I am guessing that the overhead of Steam makes it inefficient to do an update every couple of weeks.
That shouldn't bother BFC too much because they don't do very frequent updates. I think the issue is that their DRM is tightly hooked and embedded into the game, it would be a major ordeal to remove it.
Quote from: Nefaro on January 09, 2015, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on January 09, 2015, 12:05:37 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on January 09, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
I suspect BF's now ingrained terror of dropping such annoying DRM in order to sell stuff through Steam is also a big factor. They're married to it and not getting a divorce anytime in the foreseeable future.
I could enjoy some BF titles if they weren't hamstrung by BF's DRM and packaging nuttery. But they are obviously terrified of ever leaving their comfort zone while denigrating other wargame publishers who've begun using Steam. I see their tact is as honed as usual. ::)
To be sure, Steam has some sucky CS but it is convenient and absolutely expands a title's exposure to the masses, and therefore sales. If BF wants to use the ,"we are niche and always will be" excuse then that's exactly what they'll be, especially with all the annoyances currently involved. Don't want to boost sales because you're stubborn? Fine. :idiot2:
I'd be happy if they were on Steam, but after their sales went up briefly they would be annihilated by millions of people who would be very upset when Sherman tanks turned out to be reasonably good tanks. We would never hear the end of it the first time a Tiger was knocked out at 300 yds by a Sherman (of any kind). Better to let the sleeping Tiger people stay in their various paradises.
On the other hand, think of all the money to be made by a small start-up company that released a good working PC game model of an atmospheric steam engine as a prototiger tank! Like farm simulator 1700, but with uberpanzertruppen!
BF, and other wargame companies, already get such steady complaints as your example. It wouldn't be anything new. I suspect you've been around the digital grog community long enough to have seen plenty of that. :D
Even niche games get an obvious boost in sales when they go Steam. Hell.. I've seen a steady influx of new players getting into Rise Of Flight over the past months, since it went Steam, and quite a few of them are so new to proper flight simming that they've never owned a joystick before. If a full-on flight sim can drudge up new fans of a niche genre like that, then it's nothing to blow off lightly. I expect flight sims to be far more "niche" than a real-time tactical game.
I'm sure the BF guys aren't allergic to making more money, only set in their ways. If they don't want to expand their games' exposure, then it's their loss. I think their decision has more to do with control. BF can't bring themselves to get rid of a maligned DRM system and their screwy patch structuring because those would likely be the big bone of contention.
They are a small company and they have no outside "publisher"-derived problems (like say CA apparently has with SEGA). The administrative burden of dealing with Steam and some kind of public relations in the world of steam must seem like a complete waste of time. Why make more money if your game company is already doing okay and you have no investors or publishers to satisfy? The extra pressures and trouble are probably not worth the extra money.
Quote from: Zonso on January 09, 2015, 12:11:09 PM
Not much of an article, just a collection of quotes from Steve at BFC. Not sure the intent, though after reading the thread in question(!) I think perhaps a thinly veiled attempt at indirect pressure?! Apart from BFC and Valve themselves, I really have a hard time seeing someone being 'passionate' about whether BFC's products ever come on Steam or not.
From the regular goings on at Steam re price, likely that is the number one motive for many. The perceived DRM issue is nonexistent and just a dead red flag. I could see some form of streamlining modules, patches etc as that has been cumbersome to date though I understand now, haven't tried it myself, that has been resolved with their new master installers.
Has a game like Operation Star become a hit since migrating to Steam? Interesting question, this would suggest no: http://steamcharts.com/app/275290#6m (http://steamcharts.com/app/275290#6m)
I tend to agree with the "made its bones" comment. BFC were one of the first, if not the first, to go to independent internet sales, so having that credibility and established customer base, it is not surprising they are reluctant to entertain the idea. Unless of course Valve gave them an offer they couldn't refuse. :)
That chart says nothing about sales.. You know how many people have 'bought' games on here, that haven't played them!
Quote from: RyanE on January 09, 2015, 12:27:32 PM
But my opinion is that is has slowed down the updates of the game. I am guessing that the overhead of Steam makes it inefficient to do an update every couple of weeks.
Due to NDA I can't say much but my impression as a member of the beta team is the game being on Steam has not slowed development. I could be wrong, maybe the devs are dealing with things on the back end that we don't hear about.
It might be coincidence, but updates were monthly and smaller. Last took almost three months and was bigger. My assumption is that the overhead of managing steam updates means they wait longer for bigger updates to put them out. Just an uneducated guess from things I have see with other devs.
Quote from: MengJiao on January 09, 2015, 12:28:20 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on January 09, 2015, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on January 09, 2015, 12:05:37 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on January 09, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
I suspect BF's now ingrained terror of dropping such annoying DRM in order to sell stuff through Steam is also a big factor. They're married to it and not getting a divorce anytime in the foreseeable future.
I could enjoy some BF titles if they weren't hamstrung by BF's DRM and packaging nuttery. But they are obviously terrified of ever leaving their comfort zone while denigrating other wargame publishers who've begun using Steam. I see their tact is as honed as usual. ::)
To be sure, Steam has some sucky CS but it is convenient and absolutely expands a title's exposure to the masses, and therefore sales. If BF wants to use the ,"we are niche and always will be" excuse then that's exactly what they'll be, especially with all the annoyances currently involved. Don't want to boost sales because you're stubborn? Fine. :idiot2:
I'd be happy if they were on Steam, but after their sales went up briefly they would be annihilated by millions of people who would be very upset when Sherman tanks turned out to be reasonably good tanks. We would never hear the end of it the first time a Tiger was knocked out at 300 yds by a Sherman (of any kind). Better to let the sleeping Tiger people stay in their various paradises.
On the other hand, think of all the money to be made by a small start-up company that released a good working PC game model of an atmospheric steam engine as a prototiger tank! Like farm simulator 1700, but with uberpanzertruppen!
BF, and other wargame companies, already get such steady complaints as your example. It wouldn't be anything new. I suspect you've been around the digital grog community long enough to have seen plenty of that. :D
Even niche games get an obvious boost in sales when they go Steam. Hell.. I've seen a steady influx of new players getting into Rise Of Flight over the past months, since it went Steam, and quite a few of them are so new to proper flight simming that they've never owned a joystick before. If a full-on flight sim can drudge up new fans of a niche genre like that, then it's nothing to blow off lightly. I expect flight sims to be far more "niche" than a real-time tactical game.
I'm sure the BF guys aren't allergic to making more money, only set in their ways. If they don't want to expand their games' exposure, then it's their loss. I think their decision has more to do with control. BF can't bring themselves to get rid of a maligned DRM system and their screwy patch structuring because those would likely be the big bone of contention.
They are a small company and they have no outside "publisher"-derived problems (like say CA apparently has with SEGA). The administrative burden of dealing with Steam and some kind of public relations in the world of steam must seem like a complete waste of time. Why make more money if your game company is already doing okay and you have no investors or publishers to satisfy? The extra pressures and trouble are probably not worth the extra money.
Iirc this is the essence of steves objection to steam
QuoteThey are a small company and they have no outside "publisher"-derived problems (like say CA apparently has with SEGA). The administrative burden of dealing with Steam and some kind of public relations in the world of steam must seem like a complete waste of time. Why make more money if your game company is already doing okay and you have no investors or publishers to satisfy? The extra pressures and trouble are probably not worth the extra money.
Sounds like a smart move. They don't want to dilute their community with new comers who can bash their products and take the game to a different direction. Those left playing their games throughout the years are loyal fans who just buys everything that they put out. :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: I unfortunately stopped buying their games for one reason or another. And I guess there are people like me.
I think the main comes down to is their base is made up of four segments...1) the "I'll buy anything" BFC builds, 2) the "I stopped after CMXX" for any number of reasons, 3) noobs just discovering BFC, and people who would never buy because they hate BFC, their DRM, or the game.
Then their are is the fifth segmant of people who just don't know about them but might buy if exposed to a real marketing campaign. So lets put out an opinion on each...
1) Don't worry about that base except for the risk it is slowly dying away. Look at the average age poll on the BFC forums.
2) Steam might not mean much to these guys except if the game gets a little easier to manage, but its a long shot.
3) Some noobs will keep buying...or not. And there just don't seem to be a lot of them on the forum.
4) Steam might have an impact here if DRM is the issue. Maybe pick up a couple dozen outliers for BFC.
5) Steam might draw some exposure for BFC. But as stated, this can be a double-edged sword for a pretty basic marketing group.
I think BFC would see a pretty decent surge from segment 5 if they loaded everything in the catalog on Steam. I still think they have so deeply embedded their DRM that it will be no small task switching to Steam.
With or without Steam, If I were BFC...I would take all my old games, maybe everything up to CMBN 3.0, and slash the price to $10, including CMBN 2.0. I would sell CMBN for $20 but keep the modules at a much higher price. They can't be selling many of the old games and at $5/$10, I would think they could push some CMBB out the door and get people interested in the niche. Any solid business man can tell that once your sunken costs are made up, if the product is just sitting on shelves, discount to keep cash flow. Have a $50 10-year old game that a few people a year buy can't compare to having maybe 100 throwing a disposable $5/$10 and giving your company exposure.
But they would have to seriously upgrade their marketing skills. Steam users would come after them about so many things and Steve is not the best marketing/PR guy in the world.
Last time I bought a bfc game was CMBB back in 2004 I think. I stopped for a long while due to work. I admit when i heard they were charging for patches, I wasn't crazy to come back. I liked the original game though.