QuoteOnce a sleepy, sun-soaked backwater, this air base on the southern island of Okinawa has become the forefront of a dangerous test of wills between two of Asia's largest powers, Japan and China.
At least once every day, Japanese F-15 fighter jets roar down the runway, scrambling to intercept foreign aircraft, mostly from China. The Japanese pilots say they usually face lumbering reconnaissance planes that cruise along the edge of Japanese-claimed airspace before turning home. But sometimes — exactly how often is classified — they face nimbler Chinese fighter jets in knuckle-whitening tests of piloting skills, and self-control.
"Intercepting fighters is always more nerve-racking," said Lt. Col. Hiroyuki Uemura, squadron commander of the approximately 20 F-15 fighters stationed here at Naha Air Base. "We hold our ground, but we don't provoke."
The high-velocity encounters over the East China Sea have made the skies above these strategic waters some of the tensest in the region, unnerving Pentagon planners concerned that a slip-up could cause a war with the potential to drag in the United States. Japan's refusal to back down over months of consistent challenges also represents a rare display of military spine by this long-dovish nation, and one that underscores just how far the rise of China and its forceful campaign to control nearby seas has pushed Japan out of its pacifist shell.
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/09/world/in-a-test-of-wills-japanese-fighter-pilots-confront-chinese.html
Japan, our first line of defense in the coming war with China.
Japanese Prime Minister Abe has been working on getting Japan back to it's normal self fo some time. It's not 1995 anymore. And as long as they lay off the fascism I think everything will be alright.
seems the JAF is very busy.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/chasing-chinese-planes-400-times-a-year-stretches-japan-top-guns
Quote from: LongBlade on March 08, 2015, 11:47:01 PM
QuoteOnce a sleepy, sun-soaked backwater, this air base on the southern island of Okinawa has become the forefront of a dangerous test of wills between two of Asia's largest powers, Japan and China.
At least once every day, Japanese F-15 fighter jets roar down the runway, scrambling to intercept foreign aircraft, mostly from China. The Japanese pilots say they usually face lumbering reconnaissance planes that cruise along the edge of Japanese-claimed airspace before turning home. But sometimes — exactly how often is classified — they face nimbler Chinese fighter jets in knuckle-whitening tests of piloting skills, and self-control.
"Intercepting fighters is always more nerve-racking," said Lt. Col. Hiroyuki Uemura, squadron commander of the approximately 20 F-15 fighters stationed here at Naha Air Base. "We hold our ground, but we don't provoke."
The high-velocity encounters over the East China Sea have made the skies above these strategic waters some of the tensest in the region, unnerving Pentagon planners concerned that a slip-up could cause a war with the potential to drag in the United States. Japan's refusal to back down over months of consistent challenges also represents a rare display of military spine by this long-dovish nation, and one that underscores just how far the rise of China and its forceful campaign to control nearby seas has pushed Japan out of its pacifist shell.
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/09/world/in-a-test-of-wills-japanese-fighter-pilots-confront-chinese.html
Didn't y'all have USN and/or USAF bases on Okinawa at some point in the recent past? Or are they still there?
Yes but we dont police Japanese air space.
Interesting symmetry between Russian aerial incursions in Europe and Chinese ones in Asia. Aren't both running about 400 intercepts a year? Wonder if they've discussed mutual strategy.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 09, 2015, 10:27:07 AM
Yes but we dont police Japanese air space.
You'd think that it would be a bit of a deterrent to the ChiComs, no?
Apparently not.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 09, 2015, 09:30:28 AM
seems the JAF is very busy.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/chasing-chinese-planes-400-times-a-year-stretches-japan-top-guns (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/chasing-chinese-planes-400-times-a-year-stretches-japan-top-guns)
Quote"It's practically every day," Suzuki, dressed in a uniform of white shirt and dark blue trousers, said in his office. "It's absolutely extraordinary to ask one squadron to deal with more than 400 scrambles a year. It's an extremely heavy burden."
QuoteIt's not just a lack of numbers that hampers Naha's 83rd Air Wing. The base shares a single runway with the adjacent civilian airport. While scrambles take priority over passenger flights, fighter jets embarking on daily training sessions must wait in line behind planes taking visitors back to Shanghai and Beijing, as well as Taiwan and the Japanese mainland.
The Japaneses really do need to ramp up investment in their military. 400 scrambles by a single squadron from a base with a single strip shared with a civvie airport? Ouch.
Obviously, there are some in China that don't remember what happened the last time they got into a war with Japan.
Not that there would be a 'Rape of Nanking II' in the cards or anything, but a 'Rape of Chinese air and naval power' would undoubtedly be a close second.
For what its worth Japan has a larger military then any NATO country and I think the largest navy besides the US globally.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on March 09, 2015, 11:45:58 AM
Obviously, there are some in China that don't remember what happened the last time they got into a war with Japan.
Not that there would be a 'Rape of Nanking II' in the cards or anything, but a 'Rape of Chinese air and naval power' would undoubtedly be a close second.
The Great East China Sea Turkey Shoot?
IIRC Jomni recently modeled the Naha airport in Xplane and has screenshots in one of the threads here.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 09, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
For what its worth Japan has a larger military then any NATO country and I think the largest navy besides the US globally.
I think you're right about the JMSDF. Know you're right about their military compared to NATO members.
I think a lot our allies are rethinking their defense budgets. Or should be anyway.
What are the odds on open conflict between the Chinese and someone by 2025? If the ChiComms are faced with serious internal unrest, I think they will look to an external conflict in an attempt to rally domestic support.
Worth a read:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/great-war-the-east-china-sea-why-china-japan-could-fight-10877
Quote from: mirth on March 09, 2015, 12:02:08 PM
Worth a read:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/great-war-the-east-china-sea-why-china-japan-could-fight-10877
If this is true:
Quote
Let's start with China. As I have argued elsewhere, China's primary aim is to strengthen its leadership in Asia and undermine America's. The best way to do that without confronting America too directly is to weaken the alliances and partnerships that underpin U.S. regional leadership. It therefore wants to persuade U.S. allies that Washington is no longer willing to stand up for them against the growing power of China. (Whether Beijing would be right to assume that without U.S. support they would more willingly accept Chinese leadership is a separate question, of course. As far as Japan is concerned, I think they are probably wrong, but that is a separate issue.)
Then would it not be in Chinese interests to provide unlimited financial support to the Libertarian Party in the US?
Quote
"We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual." The platform emphasizes individual liberty in personal and economic affairs, avoidance of "foreign entanglements" and military and economic intervention in other nations' affairs, and free trade and migration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)
If the Chinese want to bankrupt their economy trying to convince people in the US to vote Libertarian, I welcome it.
I don't know what Libertarian party/PAC coffers are like, but any progress that the Chinese can subsidize (if they really are wishing the US to retreat from the Pacific) would be money well invested.
I don't car how much they spend, no one is going to to vote Libertarian. Look at the numbers in that Wikiepdia link you posted. Libertarians are beyond fringe :P
And dont' get me wrong, I have many Libertarian sympathies/leanings. Isolationism is not one of them however.
Quote from: mirth on March 09, 2015, 11:56:13 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 09, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
For what its worth Japan has a larger military then any NATO country and I think the largest navy besides the US globally.
What are the odds on open conflict between the Chinese and someone by 2025? If the ChiComms are faced with serious internal unrest, I think they will look to an external conflict in an attempt to rally domestic support.
Sounds like the plot of Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising. I'm pretty sure there's a novel out there that covers similar scenarios.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flashpoint:_Dragon_Rising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flashpoint:_Dragon_Rising)
Quote from: endfire79 on March 09, 2015, 04:41:52 PM
Quote from: mirth on March 09, 2015, 11:56:13 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 09, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
For what its worth Japan has a larger military then any NATO country and I think the largest navy besides the US globally.
What are the odds on open conflict between the Chinese and someone by 2025? If the ChiComms are faced with serious internal unrest, I think they will look to an external conflict in an attempt to rally domestic support.
Sounds like the plot of Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising. I'm pretty sure there's a novel out there that covers similar scenarios.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flashpoint:_Dragon_Rising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flashpoint:_Dragon_Rising)
This for a book
http://www.amazon.com/Bear-Dragon-Jack-Ryan-Novel/dp/0425180964/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425947622&sr=8-1&keywords=tom+clancy+bear+and+the+dragon
I didn't like that book nearly as much as Red Storm Rising. Then again I compare all of his subsequent 'war' books with Red Storm Rising. O0
that was the book that made me stop reading Clancy books.
Quote from: mirth on March 09, 2015, 11:48:26 AM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on March 09, 2015, 11:45:58 AM
Obviously, there are some in China that don't remember what happened the last time they got into a war with Japan.
Not that there would be a 'Rape of Nanking II' in the cards or anything, but a 'Rape of Chinese air and naval power' would undoubtedly be a close second.
The Great East China Sea Turkey Shoot?
@Banzai Ha!
@Mirth Ha!
Bear and the Dragon was decent. Pretty much the last Clancy book I would say that about. He fell off a cliff after that with mostly 'co-authored' crap.
Glorious Mission Online. Chinese made FPS. http://kotaku.com/chinas-first-person-military-shooter-has-a-terrible-me-1026025398
Quote from: Centurion40 on March 09, 2015, 01:53:54 PM
I don't know what Libertarian party/PAC coffers are like, but any progress that the Chinese can subsidize (if they really are wishing the US to retreat from the Pacific) would be money well invested.
In the USA, it is illegal for people who are not US citizens, non-US companies, and foreign government to make political contributions to candidates or political parties. This was one of the many Clinton scandals - they had a bunch of contributions from Chinese nationals during his Presidency. The "Clinton Foundation" has also taken tons of contributions from foreign governments.
So Chinese contributions to the Libertarians would not be allowed under US law.
Quote from: Gusington on March 09, 2015, 09:18:56 AM
Japanese Prime Minister Abe has been working on getting Japan back to it's normal self fo some time. It's not 1995 anymore. And as long as they lay off the fascism I think everything will be alright.
+1
I think it's very interesting how those clever chinese test japans defenses to the breaking point by launching all those sorties. You don't do something like sending out harassing sorties every day if you don't intend to go to war at some point.
sure you do. the Soviets did it for decades. what I dont get is why the Japanese don't rotate squadrons through on a regular basis.
Quote from: airboy on March 10, 2015, 08:25:57 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on March 09, 2015, 01:53:54 PM
I don't know what Libertarian party/PAC coffers are like, but any progress that the Chinese can subsidize (if they really are wishing the US to retreat from the Pacific) would be money well invested.
In the USA, it is illegal for people who are not US citizens, non-US companies, and foreign government to make political contributions to candidates or political parties. This was one of the many Clinton scandals - they had a bunch of contributions from Chinese nationals during his Presidency. The "Clinton Foundation" has also taken tons of contributions from foreign governments.
So Chinese contributions to the Libertarians would not be allowed under US law.
Good to know.
But here's a question: would it be legal for Samsung USA, Toyota USA, Nokia USA, etc. to make contributions? In other words companies that are fully American subsidiaries of clearly foreign corporations? Could the Chinese buy Monsanto, then use that to influence the US political landscape?
Eliminate lobbyists and campaign contributions. Those would be worthy events and highly entertaining to watch as the political fur flies as the geezers in Congress try to figure out what the fluck to do with themselves.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 08:40:30 AM
sure you do. the Soviets did it for decades. what I dont get is why the Japanese don't rotate squadrons through on a regular basis.
They might, but if there's only a single squadron of 15s that's still a lot of intercepts to handle.
And it sounds like Naha needs upgrading:
QuoteNaha AB currently hosts JASDF units flying modified F-15J/DJ fighter aircraft, Kawasaki T-4 trainers, UH-60J Black Hawk and CH-47J Chinook helicopters. Units of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force are also based at Naha, flying the P-3 Orion patrol aircraft. The Japan Ground Self-Defense Force, Okinawa Prefectural Police, and the Japan Coast Guard also utilize facilities at Naha Airport.
As of 2013, funding in the region of ¥0.3 billion has been requested for preparing the base to host JASDF E-2C aircraft, including ¥70million for new repair and maintenance facilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naha_Air_Base
That's a lot of different aircraft and units using a single strip that's shared with civilian traffic.
well Kadena is right next door so if shit gets really serious Naha isnt all by its lonesome.
Quote from: airboy on March 10, 2015, 08:25:57 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on March 09, 2015, 01:53:54 PM
I don't know what Libertarian party/PAC coffers are like, but any progress that the Chinese can subsidize (if they really are wishing the US to retreat from the Pacific) would be money well invested.
In the USA, it is illegal for people who are not US citizens, non-US companies, and foreign government to make political contributions to candidates or political parties. This was one of the many Clinton scandals - they had a bunch of contributions from Chinese nationals during his Presidency. The "Clinton Foundation" has also taken tons of contributions from foreign governments.
So Chinese contributions to the Libertarians would not be allowed under US law.
Huh.
So in a way the Clintons are responsible for 9/11. IIRC the FBI was focused primarily on Chinese donations to Congresspeople when it took place.
Quote from: jomni on March 09, 2015, 09:18:52 PM
Glorious Mission Online. Chinese made FPS. http://kotaku.com/chinas-first-person-military-shooter-has-a-terrible-me-1026025398
From the article:
QuoteWhat was most unsettling to me was that if you were to stand over a downed Japanese soldier, the player's gun starts emptying it's clip on the dead soldier. It's messed up, and I could not confirm that this was by design or a glitch. It was a glitch, a terrible one at that.
Yeah, right.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 10:33:12 AM
well Kadena is right next door so if shit gets really serious Naha isnt all by its lonesome.
Does make you wonder why so many of the intercepts are coming out of Naha. It's not all that much further south than Kadena. Maybe the general at Naha pissed someone off.
Kadena is a USAF base and as far as I know we dont police Japaneses airspace. we dont police UK and Norwegian airspace either. thats why all the photos Ive seen have been non-USAF fighters doing the intercepts and escorts.
I don't think the defense treaty prevents the USAF from patrolling Japanese air space. I'm sure we leave it to them out of respect though. They can handle the mission, just seems like Naha is too small and congested for that level of intercepts.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 08:40:30 AM
sure you do. the Soviets did it for decades. what I dont get is why the Japanese don't rotate squadrons through on a regular basis.
I forgot about how the Soviets used to harass us. Good point.
I was wondering why the Japanese don't rotate their squadrons either. Even if China doesn't intend war, they get free practice for their pilots and they intimidate their neighbors into submission.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 11:12:10 AM
Kadena is a USAF base and as far as I know we dont police Japaneses airspace. we dont police UK and Norwegian airspace either. thats why all the photos Ive seen have been non-USAF fighters doing the intercepts and escorts.
You've policed ours, what with NORAD and all.
do I need to bring up the state of your Air Force?
Quote from: W8taminute on March 10, 2015, 12:47:02 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 08:40:30 AM
sure you do. the Soviets did it for decades. what I dont get is why the Japanese don't rotate squadrons through on a regular basis.
I forgot about how the Soviets used to harass us. Good point.
I was wondering why the Japanese don't rotate their squadrons either. Even if China doesn't intend war, they get free practice for their pilots and they intimidate their neighbors into submission.
Yeah, makes perfect sense. They should probably also (as previously mentioned) construct their own airbase on Okinawa.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 01:02:16 PM
do I need to bring up the state of your Air Force?
No. In my previous post I was going to add "because someone has to do it", but I wasn't in a self-deprecating mood!
During the immediate days after 9/11, our AF temporarily kept a couple of CF-18s at 14 Wing Greenwood (Nova Scotia) and 9 Wing Gander (Newfoundland) because the closest fighter wing was based at 3 Wing Bagotville (Quebec). Take a look at a map of Canada. 3 Wing provides fighter coverage for all of eastern Canada. 4 Wing Cold Lake provides fighter coverage for the western half of Canada. That's right, we have 2 RCAF fighter bases... 2.
You guys should just join the U.S., already. (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.moddedmustangs.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fusa.gif&hash=9baa0699b28272b15af1e47fa46dd3221582e6f5)
We probably have, it just hasn't been made public yet.
If true, I wish that they'd hurry up. I'd like to retire in Florida, west coast.
I've found your hive!
http://www.canadahouse.us/canada-house/contact-us/
I was thinking Gulf Coast, but not bad- as I look out over 8 ft snow banks and side walks covered with 2-4 inches of solid ice. :(
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 01:02:16 PM
do I need to bring up the state of your Air Force?
Easy. They're all vacationing in Florida. Snowbird Squadron 101. You might be tailgating some of them right now ;) Tell 'em to drop the margaritas, get out of retirement and get back in those voodoos (if they can still fit in them).
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 01:02:16 PM
do I need to bring up the state of your Air Force?
Damn I thought our airforce was pathetic, but Canada :o
They got around twice the number of fighters then Denmark for a population 7 times the size and to cover an area... well much much bigger
Yes, ultimately a thread devolves to Blame Canada at some point, must be an internet rule. ;)
Im not blaming Canadistan, just that big brother little brother banter.
Quote from: endfire79 on March 10, 2015, 03:19:26 PM
Yes, ultimately a thread devolves to Blame Canada at some point, must be an internet rule. ;)
Blame Canada? Is that a thing?
I thought you had been given punishment enough when we named Canadian Bacon in your honor. Poutine was self-inflicted, but also counts as punishment.
There are poutine places popping up down here. :tickedoff:
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 03:30:55 PM
There are poutine places popping up down here. :tickedoff:
I guess we can let them eat poutine so long as they do so on French fries and not Patriot fries.
Focus people!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdata2.whicdn.com%2Fimages%2F51407088%2Flarge.jpg&hash=c3d6fecd4eb8e4e4efbd989d0036a67b4cee6868)
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 10, 2015, 03:26:48 PM
Im not blaming Canadistan, just that big brother little brother banter.
'tis a time honoured tradition.
I for one agree with the jejo68's observation about our air force. It would also roll over to our 'navy' state, which isn't that great. Who can forget that row with Denmark & Russia over the North Pole?
Btw, what are 'Patriot' fries??
Quote from: mirth on March 10, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
Focus people!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdata2.whicdn.com%2Fimages%2F51407088%2Flarge.jpg&hash=c3d6fecd4eb8e4e4efbd989d0036a67b4cee6868)
Eyes left! ;)
How many fighters do the Japanese have?
Quote from: Gusington on March 10, 2015, 07:10:10 PM
How many fighters do the Japanese have?
are you counting the ones in the water off of Midway?
And Brant wins the internet for today.
The source link for the wiki page on Japan's aircraft count:
http://pds25.egloos.com/pds/201503/01/13/World_Air_Forces_2015.pdf (http://pds25.egloos.com/pds/201503/01/13/World_Air_Forces_2015.pdf)
copy of the Japan section (see attachment)
Not surprising I suppose...not one non-American type, eh...is there any type of home grown Japanese defense industry at all? Or is that still a big 'NO'?
they have the F-1/T-2 and their FSX program as well as homegrown tanks and their version of Aegis.
And robots.
^Like Voltron?
Homegrown tanks? I thought that was a real big 'NO'...no?
just nukes are off limits.
their Type-90 and Type-10 are pretty decent from what Ive read.
Try not to dump on them too much. As Star noted, they are way ahead of most NATO 'allies'. They are kinda at the pointy end of it geopolitically.
Quote from: endfire79 on March 10, 2015, 04:02:16 PM
Btw, what are 'Patriot' fries??
A few years back there was a kerfuffle internationally and, as they are wont to do, France didn't have the US's back.
Minor protests arose out of the right wing in the US in the form of the expected French-bashing, and one of the things that seemed popular in some circles was to rename "French fries" to "Patriot fries." It was pretty much a fad and passed quickly, but for those of us who remember I thought it might bring a chuckle. (apparently not)
Wasn't it Freedom Fries down in the Pentagon?
Dunno. Maybe.
it was congress.
Yep. Congress' cafeteria carried "freedom fries." ::)
Ok now I remember. Oy vey. That was around the time when MC Hammer was on CNN dancing on Capitol Hill.