I thought this article was interesting and worth a discussion here.
Its a bit simplistic and generalizes much too much but the basic presmis I think is accurate in order to push back ISIS there has to be a non state/government solution something that is quasi military/religious and autonomous but broadly aligned and supported by a nation state (or states) with training, equipment, funding and recruits. Part of the difficulty will be how to control this after ISIS is defeated.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/knights-templar-maps-plan-fight-130000317.html
Con
Well, he's clearly suggesting that this will become a war of religion. I'm not sure it will become that or needs to become that but it is interesting as a thesis.
Beat me to it. And used the same thread title I thought of, too ;)
So, if it's non-states fighting this, what's the outcome?
I'm not convinced the role of the state is over. Daish currently resides in Failed State Central. None states are succeeding because the states there were never really states - everyone agrees that the lines on the map don't correspond to natural, ethnic boundaries but arbitrary lines created a century ago by people half a world away. It's hardly a surprise that those lines are being erased...the surprise to me is that it took this long to happen.
So, does it settle around religious or secular /ethnic lines?
Quote from: LongBlade on March 22, 2015, 09:45:26 AM
Well, he's clearly suggesting that this will become a war of religion. I'm not sure it will become that or needs to become that but it is interesting as a thesis.
the problem here is that it already is a war of religion for the other side.
I think that the ethnic lines will delineate the boundaries of the areas of control and provide a common unifying area to allow everyday life to continue (farming, buying bread, some industry, and some social services like police/courts etc). The religious aspect will be used from outside groups to try and destroy these enclaves by a larger previously established system like a government/religious movement that wishes to maintain and or grow its power and sphere of influence.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 22, 2015, 10:08:17 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on March 22, 2015, 09:45:26 AM
Well, he's clearly suggesting that this will become a war of religion. I'm not sure it will become that or needs to become that but it is interesting as a thesis.
the problem here is that it already is a war of religion for the other side.
Exactly. Obama and the French government can deny the role of Islam all they want, but when the terrorists are screaming "allahu akbar" before blowing up a bus full of schoolchildren or attacking a Jewish deli, it's obvious to anyone with eyes to see that this IS a religious war from their perspective. Not to mention the fact that THEY say it's a religious war....politicians simply choose to ignore that inconvenient fact.
Why is it a bad thing for the west to acknowledge its a religious war
the pc police would think that its racist. ::)
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 22, 2015, 10:39:29 AM
Why is it a bad thing for the west to acknowledge its a religious war
No one in politics wants to offend their own Muslim population by linking the two.
Because declaring the conflict a religious war would reinforce what IS-Hole is saying to the the world's Muslim population and set the implication that both sides will now be killing folks just because what belief system they identify with. That is essentially what a religious war is- exterminate the Heretics and Unbelievers. We don't kill the IS-Holes because they are Muslim, we kill them because they are murderers and serial rapists.
And that is a different kind of war entirely.
so if it isn't a war against Islam it's a war against naughty Muslims?
I had the misfortune to be sent a piece by someone who advocated a like for like policy - specifically it was linking the fact that we know where jehadi johns family live and probably now pay for his families protection whilst he beheads westerners - the point raised was that Isis wouldn't hesitate to kill as many family members as they could - it's not something I'm sure I advocate but it made me think
A long time ago there was a newspaper article suggesting that the IRA were only brought to the negotiating table when the UDF and others started killing a catholic for every Protestant that was killed
thats what the Linebacker raids did to the North Vietnamese.
the problem isnt so much the lable, its the spine to get really fucking dirty for a few weeks knowing that youll have decades of peace afterwards.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 22, 2015, 11:13:14 AM
thats what the Linebacker raids did to the North Vietnamese.
the problem isnt so much the lable, its the spine to get really fucking dirty for a few weeks knowing that youll have decades of peace afterwards.
one could do that without going too public surely?
carpet bombing B-52s aren't what one would call covert. :2funny:
I was thinking more surgical but I get your point
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 22, 2015, 11:28:39 AM
carpet bombing B-52s aren't what one would call covert. :2funny:
But using a B-52 with thermobaric bombs in combination with a loudspeaker that talks about gods wrath and fire from above might convert a few of the survivors :)
Speaking of Templars...
QuoteSons of Liberty International (SOLI) is the first security contracting firm run as a non-profit. SOLI provides free security consulting and training services to vulnerable populations to enable them to defend themselves against terrorist and insurgent groups. The dedicated staff, volunteers, and funders of SOLI believe that all people have the right to self-defense and liberty regardless of their financial circumstances, and they strive to create a world in which the innocent are protected.
Recognizing the failure of the international community and governments to adequately protect the defenseless and support those struggling for freedom around the world, SOLI founder Matthew VanDyke realized the need for rapid on-the-ground action to help those whom the international system had failed. SOLI was created to enable those abandoned by the international community to take action in defense of themselves and their people, and to combat those forces that seek to harm and oppress them.
http://www.sonsoflibertyinternational.com/
^ Sounds like they ought to recruit Col. Hannibal & co...
Gus Team: seal
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 22, 2015, 10:39:29 AM
Why is it a bad thing for the west to acknowledge its a religious war
Because it gives ISIS more credibility than they deserve. We need to keep them labeled as terrorists and not give them EXACTLY what they want which is to promote this as a war between Islam and the infidels.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-23/elliott-the-problem-with-modern-lawrences-of-arabia/6341560
Little Boys going to fight.
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 22, 2015, 10:39:29 AM
Why is it a bad thing for the west to acknowledge its a religious war
With the attitudes of many in the west when it comes to religion, they're more than likely to cheer on ISIS than be outraged.
It is a religious war, Sunni vs. Shiite.
Quote from: jejo68 on March 23, 2015, 01:08:16 AM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 22, 2015, 11:28:39 AM
carpet bombing B-52s aren't what one would call covert. :2funny:
But using a B-52 with thermobaric bombs in combination with a loudspeaker that talks about gods wrath and fire from above might convert a few of the survivors :)
That was kind of my proposal from a few weeks ago in another thread: choose a military camp, or even a hill near a military camp, conventionally nuke it to high heaven for 30 minutes (a couple of kilotons equivalent), explain that that was a warning shot. Give people nearby an alert beforehand so videos of the event can go viral.
Make it mythopoeic. It wouldn't have to be specifically religious, they'd interpret it through that conceptual framework anyway.
Then start doing it to military camps (if the first wasn't a camp). We have the tech now to be pretty precise. It'll screw with their ability to mass firepower effectively at the very least, and remove soldiers and any leaders foolish enough to be there when it happens.
(In effect it's what the 'genocides' in the Biblical Canaan campaigns were about. The language was genocidal, because that's how national chronicle was reported in the Ancient Near Middle East; the effect was far more focused on military centers with an eye to getting civilians out of the way first.)
The Nusra Front takes the provincial capital of Idlib in Syria.
http://news.yahoo.com/al-qaida-syria-seizes-large-parts-northern-city-102702400.html
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 22, 2015, 10:51:25 AM
the pc police would think that its racist. ::)
It is not about race, but culture.
Like you say the pc police would think it racist, because they cannot think wider than that with their limited mindset.
Culture is not race, but it deals with identity and mindset, essentially the way you think about yourself. Religion, and race can play a part in it, but racism is not really what this is about.