Having read about Kickstarter I visited the site.
I don't understand why people donate money for game startups (I'll ignore the rest). I really don't.
The donors really get nothing. There may be "prizes" or "rewards" listed - but it would be darn hard to enforce a contract. I'm guessing that only bad online word-of-mouth would be the only real risk if the developers stiff an individual donor.
I can see why a developer would do it. You can take advance orders - and refuse to follow them if the project dies. Or, if the project actually works you have a built-in initial level of presold games. The developer has less cash at risk from starting the project. From a developer standpoint, the only real risk is potential bad word of mouth (unless there are less risky/expensive ways to raise capital).
A developer can also generate relatively free advance publicity for a project.
So, as a business professor I understand the overall cash flow model. I understand how the people who own kickstarter make money. I understand why developers might find it financially attractive or a good source of advance publicity.
But why someone would be a "donor" is frankly utterly beyond me. It is not really an investment. You have no ownership. You have probably no enforcable contract rights. And it all ultimately may be vaporware (or the noncomputer game equilivant). It seems like the equally insane opportunities to buy "stock" or "bonds" in pro sports teams that convey no ownership, property rights, or other benefits other than a sense of "belonging" and perhaps a pretty piece of paper to put on the wall.
I've donated to the Wasteland 2 project. I get the game Wasteland 2 when development is done next year.
The project is one of the top earners on Kickstarter and has Obsidian Entertainment, Brian Fargo and a number of other high profile computer gaming legends signed on. They are very transparent in their progress and the thought that they would just stiff us donors is utterly unthinkable. Sure, it could happen but the chances of it happening with this particular project are very low. It's the only Kickstarter project I've given money to...my amount of trust is higher for Wasteland 2 than any other project I've viewed on Kickstarter.
I suspect the bigger problem is going to be (and already is, in a few cases) totally inexperienced developers who have never had to figure costs or logistics before. There are Kickstarted board games totally printed and ready in China, but the people behind it are only now realizing they have no idea how to get them to the rest of the world. Or you have board and computer game devs promising dozens of freebies, only to later realize that those freebies cost A LOT of money, and make the item more expensive to ship.
I can understand people backing something like a new Wasteland or the other big name projects, because those are being run by experienced people. I will never cease to be amazed at the fact that people will give hundreds of dollars to projects run by a self professed 'idea mean' with no industry background and a lot of nebulous promises that he clearly doesn't know how to make in to reality.
I must be missing a lot over at Kickstarter...what the heck is being touted over there??
Quote from: Gusington on April 30, 2012, 08:21:51 PM
I must be missing a lot over at Kickstarter...what the heck is being touted over there??
Take a look through some of the ones that failed, or are about to. Seriously, some of the most ridiculous pitches of all time, and yet they STILL got a few idiots to promise them money.
Ok so those are the ones that Airboy alludes to in the OP. It's a far cry from those to Wasteland 2 though.
If you read the website, they stand behind nothing. It is totally up to the developers. It is all based on a promise. There is no accountability.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see another Wasteland or a new Gabriel Knight type game (both of which are projects).
But if you read the "promises" on the website - you "donate" your money and if the developer does not live up to the agreement you are totally without recourse.
I agree with Airboy on this one completely.
Couple of direct quotes from the "accountablity section"
- Kickstarter does not investigate a creator's ability to complete their project.
- How do I know a project creator is who they claim they are? = At the end of the day, use your internet street smarts.
- Project creators are solely responsible for fulfilling the promises of their projects
- What if I don't get my promised reward? - If the creator hasn't posted an update, send a direct message to request more information about their progress, or post a public comment on their project asking for a status update.
And they very, very clearly state that if you "back a project" you have no ownership. The project developers keep all of the ownership.
Airboy, what you posted is not strictly true.
Donors do get several things. First, they get the assurance that the project that they supported will actually see the light of day. Kickstarter has allowed three great projects - Tim Schafer's new adventure game, the Wasteland sequel, and a Shadowrun PC game, to come to fruition without any large production house's oversight.
Two of those three projects were blocked at the publisher level. Through normal channels, the development house would go to the publisher, give a pitch, and the publisher would say yea or nay, then - if yea - would front them development money. But in this age of video gaming, publishing companies only invest in what they feel will be extremely profitable - FPS games, console games, or tried and true brand names. We all bemoan the fact that TBS and classic RPG are either dying out or only being produced by self-funded indie companies at low budget.
Kickstarter changes that. Developers can pitch demanded ideas that do not fit the "profit model" of the big-house publishers to the fans and solicit their aid. One fan can't give enough to make a difference, but a multitude of fans can fun a development with enough money to make an almost AAA-level of quality. This isn't strictly a pre-order, it is an investment deal - you invest in the idea you want to come into fruition and you get in on the ground floor when it releases.
This isn't just useful for the PC gaming industry, it is used in the board game industry with a lot of success. The developer-publisher relationship in the board game industry is fairly strange and complex, but there are a few companies that allow for developers to self-publish and self-print high quality board games. People who have great board game prototypes may lack access to capital, and may not know how popular their idea will be. These developers can't afford buying a huge print run and then not selling all their inventory - so Kickstarter allows them to hire artists, pay the printer, and find out exactly how many copies to order to still make a profit. Fans get exclusive rewards (if you don't believe fans get anything, look at the rewards for the upcoming Deluxe Edition of Steve Jackson's Ogre), and often early copies.
I have participated in several Kickstarters and I have yet to see one where the investor did not get the promised reward. To me, this is a brilliant step forward for self-publishing and independent game development. You better believe that the big names like EA and Atari got a sudden interest when they saw that Tim Schafer's adventure game got over $1 million in support within the course of a day. This will change the face of game development and hopefully break the entrenchment of console and FPS as the "profit gods" in the minds of the big companies.
And it lets fans have a choice for what games get developed. Not only that, but fans get to see projects that were abandoned or forgotten, but still loved, get revived under the terms of the fans and the developer - without some profit-hungry publisher dictating how it is done.
EDIT:
And you DO have ownership, if you pay enough. What I mean is, you will own a copy of the game (for instance), as if you purchased it from the store.
Sure, you should be discriminating about which projects you support (i.e. support those that you think are legitimate) but I have yet to see one fall through.
QuoteI suspect the bigger problem is going to be (and already is, in a few cases) totally inexperienced developers who have never had to figure costs or logistics before. There are Kickstarted board games totally printed and ready in China, but the people behind it are only now realizing they have no idea how to get them to the rest of the world. Or you have board and computer game devs promising dozens of freebies, only to later realize that those freebies cost A LOT of money, and make the item more expensive to ship.
Arctic Blast, do you have examples of this? I haven't seen this happening. I have seen board game developers have unforeseen problems with printing delays in China, but largely these people are getting the product to their supporters. Can you back this up or did you mean this as supposition? I also don't see a lot of problem with the freebies (which aren't actually free, given you pay higher levels to get more stuff). I follow the major projects and all-in-all people have been pleased over at Board Game Geek (and they are a tough bunch to please).
Son of Monfort:
Understand what you are saying.
Although you stated that: "First, they get the assurance that the project that they supported will actually see the light of day." This is simply not true. The website is very clear on this.
Seems like people pay up front for a game that may (or may not) ever be made. It is like putting your money on potential vaporware.
The only thing that you "get on the ground floor" of as a donor is potentially being in a beta test or getting a first printing of the game. But I can pre-order any game that "goes gold" on Amazon, Steam, etc.... and never pay a dime if the game ultimately does not ship.
Your other arguments make great sense - if I'm a developer. I just don't see where the donors win on this.
You are free to spend your money however you wish and if it makes you happy please continue.
Glad it's not just me who's cautious about Kickstarter. I would be much more comfortable putting up a little bit of money for a board game, which at least have low development costs. But Kickstarting a computer game? You have to hope that the developer won't just finish the game, but will also support it.
By the way, take a look at the Matrix/Slitherine site and see how many computer games have vanished into vaporware, or are still under development years after their alleged release date. And that's with a modest degree of support from an established publisher.
Kickstarter is fan-based venture capital for gaming. But it's worth remembering that there have been lot of great game concepts, backed by hefty budgets, that still produced lousy games. Caveat emptor.
Michael
Quote from: airboy on April 30, 2012, 08:51:46 PM
The only thing that you "get on the ground floor" of as a donor is potentially being in a beta test or getting a first printing of the game. But I can pre-order any game that "goes gold" on Amazon, Steam, etc.... and never pay a dime if the game ultimately does not ship.
Your other arguments make great sense - if I'm a developer. I just don't see where the donors win on this.
You are missing one thing - if the game never gets made because it can't be funded any other way, you will never be able to pre-order said game anywhere else. And Amazon and Steam require a product before listing it as a pre-order (so you can't use this to fund the game development in the same way as Kickstarter). So, if you pre-order Shadowrun or Wasteland 2, I expect some thanks... it would not have been developed at all any other way.
In Board Games the Kickstarter folks often get a first and limited print run months before the general public. So this is very much "ground floor."
I would like for you to name for me one of the projects that didn't deliver that must be giving you pause. I can name about 20 or so that delivered and delivered well.
It isn't for everyone. I think it is a little sad that so much mistrust exists today that we question giving a small amount of money to help foster entrepreneurial spirit among independent and small development groups. The idea is really quite neat, IMHO, and represents the spirit we so seek to recapture of the halcyon days of yore.
Absent of any assurance of the project being completed, I suppose it's a degree of faith. But I think you're being unnecessarily cynical on not knowing if the developers are who they say they are on the site.
Donors win with the bigger projects on getting a completed game that would not have been completed otherwise, i.e., blocked by traditional publishers.
Quote from: Gusington on April 30, 2012, 09:07:34 PM
Absent of any assurance of the project being completed, I suppose it's a degree of faith. But I think you're being unnecessarily cynical on not knowing if the developers are who they say they are on the site.
Donors win with the bigger projects on getting a completed game that would not have been completed otherwise, i.e., blocked by traditional publishers.
I have yet to get burned, and I wonder from where this cynicism stems. Are people aware of a project that defrauded its backers? With the notable exception of Steve Jackson's Ogre, I haven't given enough money to one project to get overly burned anyway (and I know Steve Jackson will deliver).
Please note, GMT Games and other war game publishers have been doing this for years, calling it P500.
P500 is different. They won't charge your card until the game is finished and in the printers. there is no loss when they cancel a project.
There are many failed projects in Kickstarter if you google it.
some of the successfully funded projects are done by pro's and well known names: Wasteland, Ogre, Tim Schafer, Shadowrun.
their renome is at stake here. if they do not deliever they will get hell from the gamers. i think that's no small cost for a
developer. same thing happened for years by the way of pre purchasing. and there were some fails too.
i love the idea, that's one of the great things that the net makes possible. i am also sure some projects will fail badly and
there's also already one case of fraud documented on the rock paper shotgun site. but i guess in a year or two we will see
a lot of good stuff coming only because there was public funding.
i would also expect that our niche hobby could profit by this kind of funding. monster turn based historical games aren't done
by large firms anymore. Kickstarter would fans allow to support small niche producers.
Appreciate the discussion. I have a better understanding of why people who contribute to Kickstarter for PC game development.
I put money into Wasteland 2 because I believe its a sure thing down the road and a must have game for me. I will put money into Dead State because I love the concept and think they have a shot at making it work. Dead State may never see the light of day and I accept that, so it's a bit of a gamble, but without something like Kickstarter it may have no chance. I like the concept of Kickstarter, but like anything I put my money into, I make choices and try hard to make them informed choices.
Quote from: airboy on May 01, 2012, 08:16:35 AM
Appreciate the discussion. I have a better understanding of why people who contribute to Kickstarter for PC game development.
In accounting terms, I believe it's called "goodwill."
The value of a brand, if you will.
Kickstarter seems to do something remarkable: establish the faith in a brand before the product exists. It creates goodwill before the product.
IMHO that's a bit of an extraordinary development in marketing.
Quote from: jomni on May 01, 2012, 04:41:30 AM
P500 is different. They won't charge your card until the game is finished and in the printers. there is no loss when they cancel a project.
There are many failed projects in Kickstarter if you google it.
Jomni, I wasn't talking about failed projects. If a project fails to make its goal in Kickstarter, the donors are never charged (you are only charged at the end, if the project is successfully funded, fairly similar to P500). We were talking about projects where people paid, but that the developer "ran off" with the donors' money or the project was untenable. I haven't personally heard of any of those.
So note, there is no loss if the project gets cancelled or fails to meet its funding goal.
IMHO, LB, it is more than that - it allows for small level investment to be made at the fan level. This is NOT selling a pre-order, i.e. not wholly a marketing thing - rather it is courting grassroots support for a proposal similar to charity or political fundraising. In a way, this lets consumers "vote with their wallet" for what will be developed.
Yeah, that's part of it, too SoM.
It's a release of sorts for what is called "pent up demand."
^That's the best part of it, really. To have in-demand projects born and see the light of day that would have otherwise been tossed out by big publishers.
There was a excellent interview with one of the founders of Kickstarter on Marketplace just last night (if you are interested you can download the podcast).
Speaking of Kickstarter fraud:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/05/01/kickstopped-the-strange-case-of-mythic-gods-men/#more-106454
Not good.
Quote from: Gusington on May 01, 2012, 12:18:25 PM
Speaking of Kickstarter fraud:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/05/01/kickstopped-the-strange-case-of-mythic-gods-men/#more-106454
Not good.
Of course that popped up right after I made my statement. ::)
The good news is that nobody was charged, since Kickstarter does not charge until the project is over. This gives around a month for people to see through clear fraud (which is exactly what happened here). Some comments at RPS rightfully pointed out that, if trying to commit fraud, doing a PC game Kickstarter is a poor choice, given fan awareness.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on May 01, 2012, 12:41:29 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 01, 2012, 12:18:25 PM
Speaking of Kickstarter fraud:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/05/01/kickstopped-the-strange-case-of-mythic-gods-men/#more-106454
Not good.
Of course that popped up right after I made my statement. ::)
The good news is that nobody was charged, since Kickstarter does not charge until the project is over. This gives around a month for people to see through clear fraud (which is exactly what happened here). Some comments at RPS rightfully pointed out that, if trying to commit fraud, doing a PC game Kickstarter is a poor choice, given fan awareness.
Don't worry about it. Kickstarter has so many things going on that it's unlikely that anyone knows every one. Numerically speaking it is inevitable that something wouldn't be right.
The wonder is why a gaggle of fraudsters hasn't ruined the whole thing yet.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on April 30, 2012, 08:51:17 PM
QuoteI suspect the bigger problem is going to be (and already is, in a few cases) totally inexperienced developers who have never had to figure costs or logistics before. There are Kickstarted board games totally printed and ready in China, but the people behind it are only now realizing they have no idea how to get them to the rest of the world. Or you have board and computer game devs promising dozens of freebies, only to later realize that those freebies cost A LOT of money, and make the item more expensive to ship.
Arctic Blast, do you have examples of this? I haven't seen this happening. I have seen board game developers have unforeseen problems with printing delays in China, but largely these people are getting the product to their supporters. Can you back this up or did you mean this as supposition? I also don't see a lot of problem with the freebies (which aren't actually free, given you pay higher levels to get more stuff). I follow the major projects and all-in-all people have been pleased over at Board Game Geek (and they are a tough bunch to please).
The Glory to Rome Black Box Edition is a pretty good example. The game is done. They've already missed two earlier promised ship dates, despite the fact the game was done for the second one of those as well. But the games are all sitting in China, because they haven't been able to ship them out. Now they say somewhere between June - August. Well, THEY don't...all of the publisher guys seem to have vanished and are too busy to respond on BGG, but the guy who works for them on a volunteer basis gets to face the firing squad. Lucky him. Will it ship? Of course. But my point is that it has been held up for a minimum of half a year because the game designers don't know how to finish the project.
Logistics and shipping is something a lot of people don't really understand the insane complexity of, simply because they don't have to deal with it on a regular basis. That's going to include game designers, many of whom have never dealt with actually sending out a finished product before. It's not easy, particularly when you're talking about mass quantities (which is something I thankfully only have to deal with on rare occasions) moving from one international location to many others. Now, some of the people promising physical extras are computer game devs, and not industry veteran types either. Do you really think they've all considered the fact that they now need to ship a physical product? Or that every time they add another little trinket to that product, they've increased their packaging and shipping costs for potentially thousands of boxes?
And while I have no problem with Kickstarter itself, it's NOT really comparable to a P500 program for one important reason.
-If I pledge money to a Kickstarter project, my money is taken once it reaches it's FUNDING goal by the end date of it's funding period. Development doesn't even have to have started on it.
-If I pledge money to a P500 game, my money is taken once the game is finished, or nearly finished. Development is pretty much done, and the product's release is imminent.
Finally, I have to question the legitimacy of some of the funding for bad projects that pops up from time to time. There was an MMO project (I wish I had bookmarked it, because I don't even remember the name) that was a complete disaster. The guy behind it described himself as someone who has played a lot of games and is an idea man. Nobody involved seemed to have any development background. They had all of these videos with the idea man promising this grandiose vision that sounded like an un-programmable nightmare. No level caps, but the game would somehow continue to offer challenge to players of every level. Plenty of quests developed for characters on a customized basis by the system itself. All kinds of nonsense. Now, it failed. It didn't come anywhere NEAR success. The guy wanted $1 million, and he got about $25,000.
But $20,000 of that came from a pair of $10,000 backing bids. Either his parents are quite well off and threw some serious pity money at junior's dream, or those two 'bids' were complete fiction designed to make it look like there might be interest, because I can't imagine ANYONE promising that kind of money for that mess.
AHA! Found it! Apparently it still has 42 hours to go. It has a total of $31,300 in funding, most of that from THREE $10,000 bids.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/120873716/your-world
^Good post. I was going to post that my money has been already taken from my account for Wasteland 2, while development has barely started yet. Important distinction.
And just to be totally clear, I'm not necessarily against Kickstarter. I just have some trepidation about it, particularly projects being run by inexperienced people.
^You and I are on the same page. I have no issue giving to Wasteland 2, but it's the only project I have donated to so far. See Toonces' sig for more details.
Yes Arctic, but no money will have been charged for that train wreck of an MMORPG project, as it won't reach its goal.
I hadn't heard that the Glory to Rome Black Box had hit production problems, I wondered what happened with the project but I didn't like the art so I never supported it. The thing is, with board games, Kickstarter or no, delays in shipping are relatively common. The benefit here is that the people will eventually get the game (which would not have been produced without Kickstarter) even though not in a timely fashion. Even the big producers, Fantasy Flight Games, has 4 month delays (they just don't update people with any information regarding production, printing, shipping, and arrival until it is almost in stores).
I agree, Kickstarter is a caveat emptor situation and one should only choose to support projects that are done by familiar and trusted faces. But also Kickstarter is a system of fairly limited loss - most normal fans only pledge $15-50 or with some boardgames $50-100.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on May 01, 2012, 04:24:24 PM
Yes Arctic, but no money will have been charged for that train wreck of an MMORPG project, as it won't reach its goal.
I hadn't heard that the Glory to Rome Black Box had hit production problems, I wondered what happened with the project but I didn't like the art so I never supported it. The thing is, with board games, Kickstarter or no, delays in shipping are relatively common. The benefit here is that the people will eventually get the game (which would not have been produced without Kickstarter) even though not in a timely fashion. Even the big producers, Fantasy Flight Games, has 4 month delays (they just don't update people with any information regarding production, printing, shipping, and arrival until it is almost in stores).
I agree, Kickstarter is a caveat emptor situation and one should only choose to support projects that are done by familiar and trusted faces. But also Kickstarter is a system of fairly limited loss - most normal fans only pledge $15-50 or with some boardgames $50-100.
Initially the new version of GtR ran in to production problems. It was due to arrive last Christmas. In late December, when some people on BGG and Kickstarter began asking what was up, the head of Cambridge Games Factory pops up and says that they didn't get the new art to their printer in time, so it was no go. He didn't say anything until he was pretty much forced to. And he admitted that the primary reason for the missed date was that that they hadn't been corresponding with their printer for MONTHS. Nobody had bothered to check in and make sure that things were proceeding. They weren't...the printer had a number of questions that apparently went totally unanswered.
Now, the game has been printed and boxed up for a couple of months. It's no longer a printing problem, it's a "We have no clue how to get this out of China" problem. Part of the issue is that the same head of CGF has been stuck working long hours at his day job. Now, nobody in their right mind is going to argue that he should ignore that job. But at the same time, they got tens of thousands of dollars in Kickstarter money, and he's apparently so busy that he doesn't even post on BGG anymore. The only communication is from an unpaid lackey. And they've missed a second release date by a mile. They now promise May to June, but considering it's May and the shipment hasn't happened (aside from Origin orders, which are being air shipped. And I'm sure that was a lovely little unexpected expense), it doesn't seem very likely.
Now, this doesn't mean that CGF are bad guys. It DOES point to the fact that A LOT of these projects are being run by people without the faintest idea of how to deal with the day to day part of running their idea AS A BUSINESS. The fact that nobody apparently had figured on having to transport the finished product or put much thought in to it is, frankly, ridiculous. Major game publishers also suffer from delays...those delays don't tend to be because someone forgot to check in with the printing company for several months.
As for that insane MMO, my question there is about what I see as some very dubious 'donations'. I can't see any reason that 3 people would have bid $10,000 for that mess, and yet there are 3 bids sitting there for that amount. What is to prevent someone from pledging a maximum amount or two for their own project to make it look like it has a better chance of success? After all, if it doesn't reach the required level, it costs them nothing. And they can pull their 'pledge' at any time to avoid any actual cost to themselves, or even use the funds contributed by other, more legitimate backers to cover the cost. What is to prevent someone from doing something along those lines to absolutely game the entire system?
I have believed from the beginning that there will be some failures (there have to be. Not every funded project is going to succeed, just like not everything in any other line of business is going to succeed). But while other people are more concerned about unscrupulous types using the system to defraud people, my worry has always been totally well meaning, but totally unprepared, types who get their project funded and then don't have the tools, skills or experience to pull it off. And that might actually be more damaging to the whole concept in the long run.
Not to diss the OP...but I think some of things that a traditional "rational, logical" ROI evaluation of Kickstarter misses is the very thing that more-often-than-not proves to be critical element in brand / product success: participation, loyalty and community identity. Kickstarter is "cool" because it allows participation at a very early (and therefore critically important) stage in a product life-cycle, and usually for very niche products where brand loyalty and identity are quite high.
Not to get all Seth Godin on yer ass, but tribes (and therefore tribe association and totems) are an increasing potent factor in product success. The value ascertained through traditional ROI (and even CBA) is somewhat elusive for niche or cache products. For example, there really was no ROI for a social website that allowed Harvard students to message each other on where to get drunk on Friday night. Nevertheless, Facebook somehow caught on, and became a major brand.
Now, granted, one could argue (and I'm sure you will) that facebook and twitter didn't require any sort of capital contribution by its users or prospective audience, whereas Kickstarter does. However, I would also argue that making a contribution to a kickstarter project allows someone to contribute not only financially but also in spirit to a product that they may believe in. Call this concept what you may - altuistic capitalism, philanthropic investement, risk-less venture capitalism - it is obvious that more than a few of us are willing to help out a start-up concept not in expectation of great reward, but because it provides us with a tangible sense of well-intention action. I would also argue that given the choice between kicking in $20 to help develop Ogre 2.0, and posting the kind of stuff that one tends to see on facebook, I would almost certainly risk a couple of sawbucks.
^ A good and deep commentary Jack.
Arctic,
The irony in your story is that Cambridge Game Factory is not exactly a "newbie" operation, they are the original publishers of Glory to Rome (and several other games). Now maybe they have never had to deal with the sheer numbers of orders as with the Kickstarter project, but they *should* know how to deal with print runs and distribution. Are you sure it was CGF that ran the Kickstarter? IIRC, it was some Polish guy who did the art and got the nod from CGF. Very strange that CGF, who has been printing GtR for decades now, wouldn't know how to effectively get product from the printer to the consumers.
As to the MMORPG, I don't think there is anything stopping a person from creating a fake account and dumping money into a project to grease the wheels. But... it didn't see to work for that guy. Yes, inexperience developers may not be able to deliver adequately (I'm a little worried about that StarDrive project, which seems to have gone silent). But the investments are typically small.
Jack... err... the buy-in for "Ogre 2.0" is a bit more than $20, at least if you actually want a copy of the game. Try five times that amount. ;)
This is from the GameBanshee interview with Brian Fargo about Wasteland 2.
GB: Unfortunately, role-playing games have lost much of their original identity in recent years, thanks in part to the popularity of first-person action RPGs. How do you convince a newer or younger RPG fan who has grown accustomed to the action-focused titles to give Wasteland 2 a shot?
Brian: Well here is the beauty of fan funding... we don't have to convince some younger RPG player of anything. I am making this game for the wonderful fans who put their money behind us and not some nebulous group of new people. Let's make the game they all expect and let the chips fall where they may. There is just no way I'm going to consider anything that could let down the core.
***************************
Again - I see the great deal for developers. I also see how this makes games that are not profitable in a traditional funding perspective become viable via this method of raising capital.
Brian Fargo is stating in the interview that he wants a turn-based, party oriented, CRPG that is isomorphic. Given Fargo's track record of Fallout 1, Fallout 2 and Wasteland this is pretty exciting to me personally.
Hope this works out.
Fargo is defining his core audience as those who put in the startup capital. He is aiming at a specific, narrower market niche instead of appealing to the broad market of RPGs that we have today (great graphics, single person, not turn based, and largely linear and often (think Dragon Age & the Witcher and to a lesser extent Vampire Bloodlines) with only one path to follow.
Being an enthusiast of the Spiderweb software games currently, I really hope Fargo makes a bunch of money and will continue to create good product.
^So did you donate?
I did not donate. Nor will I in the future. I don't provide charity for potential projects.
I still hope that it works out and will appreciate those who paid to make it happen.
Will you purchase Wasteland 2 when it's released?
Quote from: son_of_montfort on April 30, 2012, 09:11:03 PM
Quote from: Gusington on April 30, 2012, 09:07:34 PM
Absent of any assurance of the project being completed, I suppose it's a degree of faith. But I think you're being unnecessarily cynical on not knowing if the developers are who they say they are on the site.
Donors win with the bigger projects on getting a completed game that would not have been completed otherwise, i.e., blocked by traditional publishers.
I have yet to get burned, and I wonder from where this cynicism stems. Are people aware of a project that defrauded its backers? With the notable exception of Steve Jackson's Ogre, I haven't given enough money to one project to get overly burned anyway (and I know Steve Jackson will deliver).
Please note, GMT Games and other war game publishers have been doing this for years, calling it P500.
SJ Games???? You play Ultracorps????????????????????????
Quote from: son_of_montfort on May 02, 2012, 02:01:52 AM
^ A good and deep commentary Jack.
Arctic,
The irony in your story is that Cambridge Game Factory is not exactly a "newbie" operation, they are the original publishers of Glory to Rome (and several other games). Now maybe they have never had to deal with the sheer numbers of orders as with the Kickstarter project, but they *should* know how to deal with print runs and distribution. Are you sure it was CGF that ran the Kickstarter? IIRC, it was some Polish guy who did the art and got the nod from CGF. Very strange that CGF, who has been printing GtR for decades now, wouldn't know how to effectively get product from the printer to the consumers.
As to the MMORPG, I don't think there is anything stopping a person from creating a fake account and dumping money into a project to grease the wheels. But... it didn't see to work for that guy. Yes, inexperience developers may not be able to deliver adequately (I'm a little worried about that StarDrive project, which seems to have gone silent). But the investments are typically small.
Jack... err... the buy-in for "Ogre 2.0" is a bit more than $20, at least if you actually want a copy of the game. Try five times that amount. ;)
Yeah, the more I read in to the GTR Black Box mess, the worse CGF looks. Their Production person left, so they replaced her with someone who doesn't speak Chinese, despite needing to deal with Chinese manufacturers, and has never done import/export or so much as filled out a customs document, despite that being 90% of her job description. Um...just wow.
They did run the Kickstarter themselves. Not sure about this Polish person? Maybe you mean Carl Chudyk, who designed the game? On a completely different note, it actually IS a pretty good card game. You should check it out...the standard version is about $15-$20 online. ;D
Anyway, let's just put my overall feeling as 'Kickstarter = good idea, but I have concerns'. The next year and a half or so are going to really make it or break it, because there are a LOT of Kickstarted projects due out in that period of time.
Arctic,
The wife and I love GtR, and I didn't support the KS for the black box because I liked the silly artwork and cheap components more than a "prettied up" version!
I think I was referring to Heiko Günther, (German, not Polish) who seems to be the point man for the art on the black box version. I don't know exactly what Carl's role in the KS was, but I was under the impression that Chudyk rarely messed with GtR anymore and that he just sort of participated when he wished. The story behind CGF is a bit weird, if I remember correctly, but I am still surprised that they are so inept with this black box. I guess they only know how to do low-end level publishing, and granted GtR and Barony are pretty low-tech.
No Windi, the only SJ games I have played is Illuminati and Munchkin. I'm very excited he is going back to Ogre, however.
@ St. SoM,
Ultracorps is a good MMO turn based wargame though....
Quote from: son_of_montfort on May 02, 2012, 10:00:42 PM
Arctic,
The wife and I love GtR, and I didn't support the KS for the black box because I liked the silly artwork and cheap components more than a "prettied up" version!
Totally agree. I don't actually like the new 'serious' look. I also kind of question how it's suddenly worth $50 a copy.
Quote
No Windi, the only SJ games I have played is Illuminati and Munchkin. I'm very excited he is going back to Ogre, however.
I'm hoping he gets back in to Car Wars. It sounds like a series I would be in to, and a new edition run might be something I'd be willing to drop some dollars on.
Quote from: Gusington on May 02, 2012, 07:06:29 PM
Will you purchase Wasteland 2 when it's released?
I will absolutely buy it if it is released and functional.
^I don't blame you for being cautious and skeptical. I am with most of the projects on Kickstarter.
Quote from: Windigo on May 02, 2012, 10:08:26 PM
@ St. SoM,
Ultracorps is a good MMO turn based wargame though....
I'll check it our Windi. Do you play?
Quote from: son_of_montfort on May 03, 2012, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: Windigo on May 02, 2012, 10:08:26 PM
@ St. SoM,
Ultracorps is a good MMO turn based wargame though....
I'll check it our Windi. Do you play?
no.... not now ;)
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 02, 2012, 10:13:50 PM
Totally agree. I don't actually like the new 'serious' look. I also kind of question how it's suddenly worth $50 a copy.
I saw the black box advertised on an online retailer for $26. I remember the KS campaign it was ~$50. I sense a disturbance in the force!
Quote from: son_of_montfort on May 03, 2012, 02:46:12 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on May 02, 2012, 10:13:50 PM
Totally agree. I don't actually like the new 'serious' look. I also kind of question how it's suddenly worth $50 a copy.
I saw the black box advertised on an online retailer for $26. I remember the KS campaign it was ~$50. I sense a disturbance in the force!
Hmmm...it's possible that because it's still a preorder, they're just showing the listed price for the time being.
If not, REVOLUTION!
Or, you know, something.