If not appropriate for this forum, mods feel free to move or delete....saw this at a couple of different places where Apple is removing games with the confederate flag, such as Ultimate Gettysburg. I don't really have an opinion on it right now, but I guess it is like where the Swastika flags were banned in certain countries too. I am wondering if this will extend to other game distributors such as Steam and Matrix.
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-bans-confederate-flag-apps-2015-6
It's been discussed here, among a variety of socio-political issues, in this thread here
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=14001.0
that said, if you want to focus just on the software store policy and avoid the other sociological discussion, we'll leave this thread open for now.
I feel the flag issue is much like the swastika issue, like you.
Being a history nut, I want them included in games.
Although I can see the other side of the issue with them.
Their are gamers that refuse to play the Germans in WWII, no matter which way they are represented.
I can understand that point as well.
I absolutely see both sides of it...I find it interesting that Apple said this is the clause it violated....
"We have removed apps from the App Store that use the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways, which is in violation of our guidelines,"
For the civil war games removed, they all seemed to be historical so not sure how they fit in that clause.....Apple still kept books and other things available for purchase that has the flag, plus if I had to bet they are still offering Civil War related movies through iTunes....seems to be a fine line.
I'd wager that I'm pretty far to the left of most folks around here, and this move on Apple's part strikes me as arrant stupidity.
Context matters. Context makes all the difference.
It is the case, for example, that although Third Reich symbolism is banned in Germany, it is permitted in some contexts, for example, a book cover or museum exhibit.
I don't see how it's remotely arguable that the Confederate Flag should *not* be allowed on a game depicting the Civil War. And I say that as someone fully in favor of removing the flag from the South Carolina statehouse. The contexts, in my opinion, are in no way equivalent.
2 points here
1. There are still things like Ken Burns' documentary The Civil War that are for sale in the iTunes store
2. The reason the Nazi flag is not used in a lot of other games is that there are nations where it is outlawed. While the Confederate flag may come under significant and intense public scrutiny and commercial boycott in the US, it will never be outlawed as any such legal attempt will miserably fail a first amendment challenge and never get out of the gate.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on June 25, 2015, 07:25:37 PM
I absolutely see both sides of it...I find it interesting that Apple said this is the clause it violated....
"We have removed apps from the App Store that use the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways, which is in violation of our guidelines,"
For the civil war games removed, they all seemed to be historical so not sure how they fit in that clause.....Apple still kept books and other things available for purchase that has the flag, plus if I had to bet they are still offering Civil War related movies through iTunes....seems to be a fine line.
You have to ask really what the context is? Games "simulating" history is not the same as promoting political ideals. I noticed on another thread that Amazon has followed the same policy, and yet look what they are happy to promote on sale:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mein-Kampf-Adolf-Hitler/dp/817224164X
Does it all not reek of politically correct hypocrisy? :idiot2:
Personally, I think that these companies should not act as censors. I don't even have a problem with them selling Mein Kampf, if anybody wants it. I don't agree with Nazism, but if we lose free expression we go down, slowly but surely into the '1984' police state, which is a state of affairs that the Nazi's would have liked! Why is it that the image of the Confederate flag is considered more heinous than the murderous Nazi and Soviet regimes to these companies?
Far better to have stuff we don't like out there and challenge, or ridicule it, than drive it underground where there is no debate, and no honest criticism.
See also http://www.infowars.com/amazon-staff-government-ordered-us-not-to-sell-confederate-flag/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/24/amazon-bans-confederate-flags-still-sells-nazi-merchandise/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregoryferenstein/2015/06/25/as-apple-purges-the-confederate-flag-the-nazi-swastika-stands/
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/national-anthems-soviet-union/id753173379
http://www.amazon.com/USSR-Air-5th-MSD-Professional/dp/B00JOTISHK (With best wishes to all from Apple who were sent to the Gulags, or murdered by this 'wholesome' regime!) :uglystupid2:
Quote from: sandman2575 on June 25, 2015, 08:04:51 PM
I'd wager that I'm pretty far to the left of most folks around here, and this move on Apple's part strikes me as arrant stupidity.
Context matters. Context makes all the difference.
It is the case, for example, that although Third Reich symbolism is banned in Germany, it is permitted in some contexts, for example, a book cover or museum exhibit.
I don't see how it's remotely arguable that the Confederate Flag should *not* be allowed on a game depicting the Civil War. And I say that as someone fully in favor of removing the flag from the South Carolina statehouse. The contexts, in my opinion, are in no way equivalent.
There are a couple of topics that I personally fall a bit to the left of center on as well. Still..
I just took up L&L on their offer of the free Lee@Gettysburg game. in the 'comments' section I put:
"I may choose to play the Northern side but I know the difference between racism and history.
Thank you."
Boggit - careful on your sourcing
I wouldn't believe anything that Infowars published. They're so far out in whacko-land it's embarrassing. Look up their Jade Helm insanity if you're curious.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 25, 2015, 08:26:14 PM
Boggit - careful on your sourcing
I wouldn't believe anything that Infowars published. They're so far out in whacko-land it's embarrassing. Look up their Jade Helm insanity if you're curious.
Thanks for the warning. I might check that Jade Helm thing out for a laugh.
They're not a source I have read before. I was looking to see just how prevalent the policy was, and they came up along with a lot of other hits confirming the anomalies in the Confederate image issue.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 25, 2015, 08:26:14 PM
Boggit - careful on your sourcing
I wouldn't believe anything that Infowars published. They're so far out in whacko-land it's embarrassing. Look up their Jade Helm insanity if you're curious.
LOL! Thanks for the hint. Talk about conspiracy theorists! :idiot2:
http://www.infowars.com/caught-in-a-lie-jade-helm-15/
Good comments so far.
Political correctness is unavoidable, but unfortunate. Its just a hot-button issue right now and there will be overreaction. I personally understand the argument that the confederate battle flag is not a racist symbol. On the other hand, a nuanced argument about why the battle flag isn't racist won't get any real traction because taking a pro-flag stance automatically is going to make the arguer a potential racist. Its getting to where any white person in America is default a racist, leading to one-upmanship to prove they aren't racist, hence this thread.
Speaking of conspiracy theories, there are some really nutty ones out there. I remember googling some alien occupation/infiltration conspiracy theories awhile back. These were not just people joking around. People with mental illness can make web pages too.
Quote from: Swatter on June 25, 2015, 09:17:31 PM
Speaking of conspiracy theories, there are some really nutty ones out there. I remember googling some alien occupation/infiltration conspiracy theories awhile back. These were not just people joking around. People with mental illness can make web pages too.
Ghosts. Commie ghosts what don't know they're dead. Hoping to steal our rockets so they can fly up and paint the moon pink and draw a Lenin face on it. I seen one of them disappear and reappear before my very eyes. Although being a scientist, I have to admit I might've just blinked for longer than usual, what with the shock of seeing a commie ghost and so forth
Quote from: sandman2575 on June 25, 2015, 08:04:51 PM
I'd wager that I'm pretty far to the left of most folks around here, and this move on Apple's part strikes me as arrant stupidity.
Context matters. Context makes all the difference.
It is the case, for example, that although Third Reich symbolism is banned in Germany, it is permitted in some contexts, for example, a book cover or museum exhibit.
I don't see how it's remotely arguable that the Confederate Flag should *not* be allowed on a game depicting the Civil War. And I say that as someone fully in favor of removing the flag from the South Carolina statehouse. The contexts, in my opinion, are in no way equivalent.
This is pretty much me. I'm 60 years old and from Alabama and I was embarrassed that we had the Confederate flag on our statehouse when I was 8. It's way past high time to remove it from anything government-related.
But this is rampant stupidity. UGG in no way, shape or form promotes slavery or "We ain't forgot" or any of that stuff. Apple's move is more
1984 than it is standing up for racial equality - and yes, I'm fully aware of the theoretical distinction between government action restricting speech and private action restricting speech, but entities like Apple and Amazon are so big that the distinction becomes rather blurred in practicality. I don't want Tim Cook restricting speech - even if he is a good Alabama boy - any more than I want Obama or Ted Cruz restricting it.
The new Nazi's don't like the old Confederates. The Stars and Stripes will be next.
Quote from: Boggit on June 25, 2015, 08:19:25 PM
You have to ask really what the context is? Games "simulating" history is not the same as promoting political ideals. I noticed on another thread that Amazon has followed the same policy, and yet look what they are happy to promote on sale:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mein-Kampf-Adolf-Hitler/dp/817224164X
Does it all not reek of politically correct hypocrisy? :idiot2:
Personally, I think that these companies should not act as censors. I don't even have a problem with them selling Mein Kampf, if anybody wants it. I don't agree with Nazism, but if we lose free expression we go down, slowly but surely into the '1984' police state, which is a state of affairs that the Nazi's would have liked! Why is it that the image of the Confederate flag is considered more heinous than the murderous Nazi and Soviet regimes to these companies?
Far better to have stuff we don't like out there and challenge, or ridicule it, than drive it underground where there is no debate, and no honest criticism.
First up my biases- I am libertarian and believe in equity.
But this censoring games with the confederate flag is nuts. There's plenty of historic people that could take an exception to many flags, Stars and Strips, Union Jack. I will not patronise you people here with historical examples.
Ultimate general has been removed?
Quote from: Boggit on June 25, 2015, 08:19:25 PM
I noticed on another thread that Amazon has followed the same policy, and yet look what they are happy to promote on sale:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mein-Kampf-Adolf-Hitler/dp/817224164X
Does it all not reek of politically correct hypocrisy? :idiot2:
Personally, I think that these companies should not act as censors. I don't even have a problem with them selling Mein Kampf, if anybody wants it.
Just received my copy of Military History and found these in the news section :
- Parade Antiques (Plymouth UK) lists a blue service uniform worn by Reichsmarschall Herman Gôring. Asking price £ 85.000.
- Germany recently approved the re-issue of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf for the first time in 70 years.
The new edition will be heavily annotated with critical commentary.
I don't think this is about political correctness gone mad or censorship, it's about these companies sniffing something on the wind (ie social media) and making a financial decision.
I can see both sides of this. The main issue to me is context of how the flag is used or portrayed. I also think there is some rewriting of history going on in the south...that flag design was not a universal symbol of the south or even its military. It might behoove some designers to really look and see what flag they should be using anyway.
Quote from: Father Ted on June 26, 2015, 05:16:27 AM
I don't think this is about political correctness gone mad or censorship, it's about these companies sniffing something on the wind (ie social media) and making a financial decision.
It might also be an attempt to avoid costly though spurious litigation, sad to say; but I agree, this is more a financial decision, though in reaction to a perceived financial threat from PC gone mad.
Although since Amazon isn't a single person making choices on everything, we could easily be seeing PC mad employees interpreting a new company policy in crazy ways. Someone in the other thread, I forget who (sorry), pointed out that Amazon has stopped selling some combat figurines, used in miniature wargaming, which carry a Confederate flag. How this uses "the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways", even God probably doesn't know. ;)
Somewhere, an anti-troll has surely just finished posting a note to Amazon about how it sells a fair number of products featuring the ruinous banners of demonic Chaos, and is chortling to himself, "Now we wait..." >:D
From the developers of Ultimate General: Gettysburg: Our game has been removed from AppStore (http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/our-game-has-been-removed-from-appstore).
I wonder how much my big box Civil War PC games with the cover art displaying the Confederate flag will be worth now?
I remember when being a modeller seeing a lot of model builders upset that some model companies would remove the swastikas from German Aircraft's rudders. where in reality it was displayed on most.
But I guess the companies couldn't sell in the countries where it was outlawed, so it really was a necessity on their part. Gave a boost for third party decal sets in their luftwaffe lines.
I'd like to think that most of us (gamers) are rather more enlightened than the average citizen, when it comes to military history and symbology. I can understand these companies making a business decision in this regard, but I in no way support it, and that decision is also in no way, shape, or form considering their target audience - namely, us.
Granted, some games might be aimed towards a more casual gaming crowds, but anyone interested in, say, Civil War: 1862 by Hunted Cow is going to already have a mild interest in the Civil War and therefore more of an understanding than the idiots on television. At least that's my hope, but perhaps I apply too much common sense (or not enough).
What's funny is just a week or so ago I pulled out my copy of American Civil War by Eagle Games, as it's been probably more than 10 years since I even opened the box. Now all this stuff explodes. I'm in the mood to do a War Between the States AAR on this 15-year-old game. :)
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on June 26, 2015, 06:55:11 AM
What's funny is just a week or so ago I pulled out my copy of American Civil War by Eagle Games, as it's been probably more than 10 years since I even opened the box. Now all this stuff explodes. I'm in the mood to do a War Between the States AAR on this 15-year-old game. :)
Yes, do it! But you have to use pictures of the game as it progresses. :coolsmiley:
And don't worry, I won't mention any of this to the thought police...
Quote from: sandman2575 on June 25, 2015, 08:04:51 PM
I'd wager that I'm pretty far to the left of most folks around here, and this move on Apple's part strikes me as arrant stupidity.
Context matters. Context makes all the difference.
I used to think I was the most Confederate-descended person imaginable. Then I found out most of my well-known ancestors in Texas were Indians, who spent the Civil War acquiring unsupervised livestock and making moonshine and becoming (secretly) wealthy and building churches. It was difficult to get to the bottom of their deeds since they have always figured the less said the better. I'm pretty sure my ancestors would have said, "hmmm" on the topic of Confederate flags or something even more cryptic.
Quote from: Father Ted on June 26, 2015, 05:16:27 AM
I don't think this is about political correctness gone mad or censorship, it's about these companies sniffing something on the wind (ie social media) and making a financial decision.
I think Father Ted highlights a subtle but profound issue here. When many of you talk about censorship, you seem to be implicitly talking about
political censorship. Apple's move is purely profit-motivated, as they figure that they are likely to piss off a larger customer base by retaining the title than by removing it.
I don't agree with the decision as relates to
UG: Gettysburg, but it's not like the government had any role here. Social censorship is an issue, but let's just be really certain not to confuse the two when we use the word "censorship".
That is a great distinction. In Germany, the nazi flag thing is government censorship (and possibly rightly so). Here its peer/business pressure.
Quote from: Father Ted on June 26, 2015, 05:16:27 AM
I don't think this is about political correctness gone mad or censorship, it's about these companies sniffing something on the wind (ie social media) and making a financial decision.
With all due respect to you, I must politely disagree.
The financial decision is being driven because of PC run amok. Were the US not in the grip of PC-mania no financial adjustment would be necessary.
Quote from: Father Ted on June 26, 2015, 05:16:27 AM
I don't think this is about political correctness gone mad or censorship, it's about these companies sniffing something on the wind (ie social media) and making a financial decision.
It's ultimately a negative sum financial decision. They aren't making more by offering less.
The decision is a move to capitalize on the latest PC sensationalism in an attempt to portray the company leadership as morally supreme, in an era where moralization and victimization are given highest regard in the media whilst large business is widely considered an evil entity by default.
It's for the PR and headlines, not some quick money making scheme.
I was just wondering what the Confederate Air Force was going to do, and looked them up to see they changed their name to Commemorative Air Force. In 2002. Missed it byyyy that much. :uglystupid2:
Quote from: Nefaro on June 26, 2015, 11:42:03 AM
Quote from: Father Ted on June 26, 2015, 05:16:27 AM
I don't think this is about political correctness gone mad or censorship, it's about these companies sniffing something on the wind (ie social media) and making a financial decision.
It's ultimately a negative sum financial decision. They aren't making more by offering less.
The decision is a move to capitalize on the latest PC sensationalism in an attempt to portray the company leadership as morally supreme, in an era where moralization and victimization are given highest regard in the media whilst large business is widely considered an evil entity by default.
It's for the PR and headlines, not some quick money making scheme.
I don't think another post is needed. THIS is the answer!
Did a quick search, and mentioned it over in the other thread.
A completely not watered down version of Wolfenstien 3D is and has been for some time available in the iTunes Apple store.
Ironic no?
That's some good Nazi killin' there.
Quote from: LongBlade on June 26, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
The financial decision is being driven because of PC run amok. Were the US not in the grip of PC-mania no financial adjustment would be necessary.
Latte-sipping Northeastern bleeding heart that I am, I usually roll my eyes at all the "PC is run amok!" AM radio hue and cry. But in this case, I must agree. A serious but highly specific issue ("is it right for US government institutions to fly the Confederate Battle Flag?") has indeed lapsed into mindless PC hysteria ("Quick, eliminate all images of the Confederate Flag everywhere now now now! Context be damned! No time to lose!").
sanity returns - Ultimate General returned to the App Store
http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/our-game-has-been-removed-from-appstore
"thank you" cards may be sent to the Groginatti at your leisure
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 26, 2015, 03:38:43 PM
sanity returns - Ultimate General returned to the App Store
http://www.ultimategeneral.com/blog/our-game-has-been-removed-from-appstore
"thank you" cards may be sent to the Groginatti at your leisure
Weren't there many others? Is this the only one restored thus far?
The Groginatti do not tell
Quote from: LongBlade on June 26, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: Father Ted on June 26, 2015, 05:16:27 AM
I don't think this is about political correctness gone mad or censorship, it's about these companies sniffing something on the wind (ie social media) and making a financial decision.
With all due respect to you, I must politely disagree.
The financial decision is being driven because of PC run amok. Were the US not in the grip of PC-mania no financial adjustment would be necessary.
I appreciate the respect and politeness! I shall try to clarify my point. To my mind political correctness and censorship are enforced by the state, but what's going on here is that companies are deciding to pull certain products because they fear a social media witch-hunt will hurt their bottom line. There's no legislation against displaying the confederate flag and I don't think they're doing this because their directors feel that it is morally wrong. So not censorship or PC.
I see what you're saying - that perhaps they're living in fear of PC - and I guess I'm splitting hairs, but my point was that I don't think that it's the companies which are being PC or are guilty of censorship.
Actually I think PC is an overly-maligned phenomenon, but I suppose that's food for a different thread...
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on June 26, 2015, 11:54:48 AM
I was just wondering what the Confederate Air Force was going to do, and looked them up to see they changed their name to Commemorative Air Force. In 2002. Missed it byyyy that much. :uglystupid2:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Funcyclopedia%2Fimages%2F7%2F73%2FCSAFflag.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%2Fscale-to-width%2F250%3Fcb%3D20070506215818&hash=744ccae9d161b6504275c97025aefc8028f5b2c9)
Do the Grogniatti include Paul Giamatti?
Quote from: Gusington on June 26, 2015, 09:30:08 PM
Do the Grogniatti include Paul Giamatti?
no, but we got his dad to ban Pete Rose, so there's still a familial tie-in there
I think I knew that.
Some of you may feel like the anti-Confederacy social group is going overboard and (dare I say it?) oppressing you and others. But that's a different discussion from whether Apple's decision was motivated by ideology or hard-headed, practical business criteria.
Apple's decision could have been motivated by apparent promotional gain, or perhaps protection -- but as someone noted above, that's admittedly responding to ideological pressure, so the ideological pressure is still the root cause.
It is also entirely possible (as I think I mentioned somewhere) that people in Apple took the opportunity to do this in a fashion that pushed an ideological point they agreed with.
I'd say that's even more than probable, since their stupid form letter accuses publishers outright of definitely doing something immoral, despite there being no possible way that this could have been checked other than simply having a Confederate flag somewhere (despite the form letter saying that they weren't removing products only because of the flag but because of definite wrongdoing in how the flag was used. :uglystupid2: :tickedoff: )
That simply would not have happened if ideology wasn't driving at least how the ban was implemented, and maybe why the ban was put in place to begin with.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 27, 2015, 12:42:32 PM
It is also entirely possible (as I think I mentioned somewhere) that people in Apple took the opportunity to do this in a fashion that pushed an ideological point they agreed with.
I'd say that's even more than probable, since their stupid form letter accuses publishers outright of definitely doing something immoral, despite there being no possible way that this could have been checked other than simply having a Confederate flag somewhere (despite the form letter saying that they weren't removing products only because of the flag but because of definite wrongdoing in how the flag was used. :uglystupid2: :tickedoff: )
I agree completely, Jason. This possibility has seemed very likely to me from the outset.
Having said that, my experience with companies like Google and Apple as someone in the industry suggests another possibility. All of these big tech companies offshore most of the day-to-day of their operations. I've encountered plenty of situations where a policy was enforced to the exact letter of the law, despite such enforcement being totally nonsensical. The non-US staff simply don't understand due to language barriers and a lack of knowledge of US culture, so they do
exactly what they're told. It may be that some offshore group was told to remove any instances of the CSA flag in games that violated Apple policies and standards, and they just pulled it all out of ignorance.
In other words, Hanlon's Razor: not malice but incompetence.
Quote from: panzerde on June 27, 2015, 07:57:50 PM
In other words, Hanlon's Razor: not malice but incompetence.
An excellent point!
Why wouldn't Apple immediately explain that's what happened afterward, though? ???
Also, surely Apple wouldn't have sent them instructions to look over games in a complex manner for indictment (not simply for having a flag but for immorally using a flag, per the form letter's explanation), knowing from long internal experience the instructions would be simplified in execution?
It seems more plausible to me that four thousand offshore maintenance workers were handed a sheet saying, in effect, "Go look through the 40 thousand applications on the store and if any of them feature a Confederate flag in the artwork or in the game, take it down, and send this form letter to the publisher. Here are the ten applications you personally should look into, [insert computer generated list of apps here]. Make sure you install and run each app for a few minutes to look around in it." And then some of those four thousand Indians and/or whoever they subcontracted off in Brazil figured out it was easier to simply delete anything to do with the American Civil War without even seeing if a Confederate flag showed up at all (since the vast majority of such applications on that topic would surely have one somewhere.)
I noticed those Civil War games by Hunted Cow are back in the App Store.
But the Confederate battle flags have been replaced with Rainbow Gay Pride flags. And the South has been rendered unable to win. In fact in the next version of the game, there will just be two Union armies facing each other and they won't fight. They will resolve their differences by meeting in the middle of the map and agreeing to reduce their respective Carbon Footprints. Won't that be fun? I'm sorry if this post offends anyone or anything. I don't want to be labeled a War Criminal. :-X
Could be worse. They could be resolving their differences in a fashion consonant with the new Rainbow flags... >:D
That's an image I can do without.