Guys,
I need your help. I'm getting ready to buy a new desktop PC, and, despite by best efforts, I'm still very confused about what I should get.
For a bit of background, my current rig is ancient (it runs on Vista, has 3 GB of RAM and has a chute in the back where you shovel in the coal that powers it). My work laptop runs Windows 7, so I'm comfortable with that. I don't play any FPS games or anything of that sort (no Skyrim, for example). The most graphics intense games I'm likely to play are RTS, RPG, driving sims and flying sims. I will also need to use this new computer for work, so I'll need to run that sort of software. I don't want to buy another computer for a minimum of 5 years, as I expect this one is going to be steep.
Based on my (admittedly totally inadequate) research, here are the proposed specs I've come up with so far:
Intel i7 processor (but I'm not sure which one - their nomenclature is baffling)
16 GB RAM (or would it be smarter to go with 32?)
2 TB Hard Drive
NVidia GTX 970 (I think - their nomenclature is baffling as well)
Is this anywhere in the ballpark? Am I missing something obvious?
Also, I have a few very specific questions:
The most obvious question is what operating system should I go with? I'm familiar with and comfortable with Windows 7. I've found several pre-built desktops for sale online that meet the specs I set forth above, and are loaded with Windows 7 Professional. Many of these has a free option to upgrade to Windows 10 when its released. Or should I consider Windows 8.1 despite the numerous horror stories I've heard?
Second, do I need a separate sound card. My desktop is my primary music source (and I listen to music almost all day, most days). When I bought my current computer, integrated sound was crap, but I get the sense that this may not be the case today. Many of the pre-builts that I looked at didn't even make a stand alone sound card an option.
Finally, does anyone have an opinion on pre-built vs. custom? Keep in mind that you could put everything I know about computers in a shot glass and have room left over for the lime juice. Therefore, this needs to work right out of the box. Is there enough price savings in a custom to make it worthwhile?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
Skwerl
There are some guys around here who will be able to give you a lot more technical detail then I can, but your general specs seem right on target to me. My current rig is an i7 processor with 12 GB RAM, 1 TR HD and GTX970 with 4GB RAM. The system cooks everything on ultra detail, so your system will be top of the line.
Most techies will tell you to build your own system, but then you have to worry about a lot more, ie. power supply, motherboard, cooling fans, case, ethernet card, etc. All the stock systems will have this stuff and you don't have to worry about it. The only thing I research for a stock system, beyond the basic specs that will effect performance is the power supply. You definitely want 500w at a bare minimum. Most out of the box systems are underpowered, but a good one will have at least 500, perhaps even 550w.
I've used out of the box systems for at least the last 15 years and I have really had no problems, and you pretty much know I play everything. The only thing I personally upgrade from an out of the box system is typically the graphics card. In my current system I've gone through 3 different generations of cards.
I'd be surprised if you could find a stock system that does not have Win 8 on it. I think we are passed the days where you can buy a system with the last gen OS. Its really not necessary anymore. I have Win 8.1 and it works just fine. Takes some getting used to, but I use it in desktop mode anyway, so its not much different from the predecessors.
Good luck! Buying a new computer is one of the most exciting things us old guys get to do for ourselves these days, and you are long overdue for an upgrade. Let us know what you decide!
I'll write a fuller response when I'm at home but I just want to agree that off the shelf is the way to go, for many reasons. Also your proposed spec is just fine.
I agree with JH though, make sure the Power Supply is sufficient. I've always built mine and my kids PCs. But when I've spec'd Pre-Built ones out of curiosity, one thing you see a lot is under powered rigs. This is usually on the 'deal' type rigs, but in those deals you know they're skimping somewhere!. Insufficient Power could cause unexpected shutdowns, running underpowered could put a strain on the power supply itself causing it to fail at some point. Also as JH said, the one of the things you most likely could 'upgrade' in the future would be Graphics Cards, and in that case, you probably do want power to 'grow'..
Good luck and have fun (wish I could upgrade to a system like that)!
My very amateur 2 thoughts:
1. How much RAM you put in there should be a function of how comfortable you are upgrading it yourself later. If you're OK poking around in there yourself, then save a few bucks now and upgrade later when you can find some RAM on sale and put it in yourself.
2. Remember that hard drives only come in one size: full. Get the biggest one you can afford, even at the expense of trading off elsewhere. Even if you're comfortable changing out your own HD, it's a pain in the butt to move all the content and reinstall all the software.
I know there are folks here who will be far better versed in the tech side than I am.
However, I do upgrade systems periodically so I have some familiarity with specs.
First I'll +1 Jarhead and Huw - your specs look fine. JH's observation about power supply is excellent, and something we often overlook when we shouldn't.
As for the CPU, these days figuring out the CPU specs isn't quite as critical as in the past. They seem to have reached a point where they're really fast. That said, some are faster than others. The first thing you want to look at is the number of cores. Typically they are double or quad. In effect that means you actually have either two or four CPUs working for you. More = better, so go for the quad core in every instance.
The other number will be the bus speed. Suffice it to say that more = better again, but I can't actually tell you much beyond that.
As for sound cards, no you don't need a separate sound card. There is an excellent article in the archives written by Andy Mills that goes into the story of sound cards. Well worth the read.
Ah, took a bit but I found it. It's a series of articles, actually.
http://grogheads.com/tech-sound1.html
http://grogheads.com/tech-sound2.html
http://grogheads.com/tech-sound3.html
I'm not an IT engineer, so take anything I say with a huge grain of salt.
About a year ago I bit the bullet and got a new computer.
I really liked Windows XP, but it was becoming a nuisance to use it because everything you encountered seemed to assume you were running on something more recent.
I have a lot of old programs that work on Windows XP but that would probably not work on Windows 8 (or Windows 10 for that matter).
The cost of getting newer versions of those programs is probably at least a thousand dollars in total, and some of their more modern equivalents are not all that user friendly in the sense that I would have to invest a lot of my time and energy into learning how to do something that I can already do with the old software. This nuisance factor is not trivial, because learning the new version of Paint took some time and frustration (and it's still not as good as the old Paint which I can't go back to), but that issue pales to insignificance when I think about having to abandon my trusty old Photoshop 7. And all of my office software is about 15 years old (some of it older), but so far I've been able to patch over most of the differences with Apache Open Office (which is great if you can't make PDF files with your old software).
So that's why I got Windows 7 Professional. I was looking for forward and backward compatibility, and I don't think Windows 8 has that. And from what I've seen, it's a crapshoot as to whether Windows 10 has it either.
I expect to have some adjustment problems two or three years out, but right now I'm pretty happy with it. I still prefer the way Windows XP (and Windows 2000) presented a lot of information, but there are enough things that Windows 7 does better that I don't mind losing a few comfortable old routines (apart from how they messed up Paint because the changes were made by a software designer, not a software user).
And if I had to buy a new computer this year knowing what I now know, I would still buy Windows 7 Professional rather than Windows 8 without hesitation. Note that I would not buy the regular Windows 7, because it doesn't have the backwards compatibility feature.
What I can add:
16 Gig ram should be very adequate.
650 minimum for power supply
Windows 10 is unlikely to run XP programs but supposedly will run anything designed for 7, 8.
Consider an SSD hard drive, big enough for your OS and a bunch of games. The load times will wow you.
If you get a stock system, and are given the option, spend the ~$18 to upgrade the CPU conduction ointment. The stock stuff wears out too quickly.
Pre-built or custom build is really same/same if you are getting the core components you want. The custom just lets you tweek some features, i.e. more less RAM, type of case, name brand of components...onboard sound is usually very good get some good speakers and that should be sufficient. Windows is offering a free upgrade to everyone who has a copy of Win7 or Win8 or Win8.1 to Win10. If you do a prebuilt/custom, I'd go with a know PSU over the generic they offer. Corsair is an excellent brand IMHO. I'd also go with a minimum of 8 GB RAM, but usually you find deals that offer 16 GB for no additional cost. Good luck and have fun shopping.
I didn't see budget anywhere. What you are looking at should run most games pretty well, but i7 processor PCs can vary widely in cost...laptop vs desk top...etc.
btw, cusious what games run on win7 that don't run on win8?
I purchased an Acer Aspire Predator AG7750-U2222 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883103274) about five years ago and it still runs everything I've thrown at it.
Thanks for all the help!
To other advice I'll add:
1.) Power supply is important, but so is cooling. (Think heat sinks for your mech. :coolsmiley: ) Fortunately, desktops can have plenty of room for cooling, but it isn't always easy to estimate how much cooling is needed and how much cooling is really being supplied. That's if you're doing it yourself, and if you're trying to gauge what a manufacturer is doing compared to what they ought to be doing, well, cheap computers made with the expectation that you'll need another computer a year or two from now, are going to skimp in various places on purpose, and that doesn't count whether the designers and assemblers are competent to figure this out honestly in the first place.
So if you're building, research or get advice on how to calc and effectively supply your cooling (remembering that cooling adds its own power load). If you're buying, research whether customers report overheating on a half-regular basis.
(Or go with a boutique build with loads of experience and high reputation for reliability, like Falcon-Northwest, for whom I don't work but whose computers I love, plug, plug. :smitten: )
2.) Pre-built computers often come with bloatware. Or worse. This can affect performance among other problems, but the bloatware helps subsidize a cheaper cost; my Dad bought a really cheap Toshiba PC years ago, and it barely ran once he got it despite the specs he was so proud of, but damn it was cheap! :2funny: I had a hard time explaining to him the issues involved here. ;)
3.) It's important that your system architecture has been instructed to use your graphics card (GPU) instead of your central processor (CPU) for various relevant purposes. You'll have to do this yourself if your supplier doesn't do it.
4.) Are you getting backup copies of the software which comes with the computer? (I mean the software you actually want, not bloatware.) So if something happens you can reinstall it? Including core operating system elements?
5.) Back to system architecture: your computer will work significantly more efficiently if someone is designing it and putting it together who knows how to manage the flow of information back and forth between various components. This also applies to physical wiring. Which shouldn't be shoddy, and should be designed and installed in its layout so as to keep out of the way of anything you or a technician may be doing inside the computer later.
6.) If Win 8.1 is stable and competent enough for elite boutique operators who live and die by the reputation of their computers, it's good enough for me. However, they're likely to install it fairly 'clean' without a lot of pointless overhead. Also, I recommend picking up the OpenStart shell so the computer will boot to a proper desktop with a proper start menu (and which allows the 'Explorer' user interfaces to work in modes going back to XP). I have never yet run into an old program that actually wouldn't run on 8.1, although sometimes programs have to be forced into compatibility mode and 8.1 explicitly goes back to XP (and maybe to ME, I forget). DosBox takes care of anything older, and it definitely works on 8.1.
That being said, who knows what Win 10 is going to do or not do? Possibly God alone at this point. ;)
Not sure of your budget, but:
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=13243.0
If you are getting 8 Gig of memory make sure you have 'open' slots to add more, so that you don't have to throw out memory when upgrading if you choose to do so. Another thing bargain prices systems might do is use smaller sims taking up all available slots, which means you'd be throwing out memory if you wanted to upgrade.
Most pre-made systems I don't think give you operating system disks anymore, I think they give you a tool to make recovery disks now adays.
Yep, consider getting an SSD drive as well as your 1TB drive. A 120GB SSD drive is pretty inexpensive.
Install Windows on the SSD and just windows alone. No other programs.
Then, change your Program Files registry entry to point to your normal drive.
All your programs will then be installed into your other drive.
You will get a super fast boot-up, and all programs will run like silk.
Also, if you increase the page file size on Windows, the empty SSD space will cope with any maxing-out of video memory or RAM super-fast.
Guys,
With your much appreciated assistance, here's what I've settled on:
HP 850 SE
4th generation i7 5820 hex core CPU
3 TB Hard Drive
256 GB SSD Drive
16 GB RAM
500 Watt Power Supply (this is the only option offered with this package)
Liquid cooling
NVidia GTX 970 graphics card
Windows 7 Professional 64 (with a free upgrade to Windows 10 when it comes out)
Any last thoughts? I'm going to pull the trigger on this tomorrow.
Thanks again for all your help!
Seems legit! Power may be a little low...? Can't quite tell, but like you said the only option available.
(I'm glad someone mentioned the SSD, especially for your OS drive -- I meant to include it but got distracted. :-[ )
Yeah I'd worry about the PSU as well
I too would try for a 600 or 650 watt PSU but other than that it is identical to what I am going to purchase, more or less.
I just rechecked. Apparently the power supply is 600 Watts. Will that work?
Seems good even though I have no idea what an HP 850 SE is :)
Minimum power requirement for the GTX 970 is 500W. (http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-970/specifications) Do you know which manufacturer it is, or is it just a vanilla nVidia model? Either way, 600W should be OK if you aren't doing anything too exotic with your PC, especially since you've gone for liquid cooling. I'd be a little more comfortable at 650W but that's with future-proofing in mind.
Anyway, your proposed spec is excellent. It's definitely high end and you won't have a problem running anything, and it should serve you for a few years easily. I'm jealous. ;)
Quote from: Huw the Poo on June 27, 2015, 03:23:12 PM
Minimum power requirement for the GTX 970 is 500W. (http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-970/specifications) Do you know which manufacturer it is, or is it just a vanilla nVidia model? Either way, 600W should be OK if you aren't doing anything too exotic with your PC, especially since you've gone for liquid cooling. I'd be a little more comfortable at 650W but that's with future-proofing in mind.
Anyway, your proposed spec is excellent. It's definitely high end and you won't have a problem running anything, and it should serve you for a few years easily. I'm jealous. ;)
I bet he doesn't sully it all up with that Linux stuffs :P
Quote from: Bison on June 27, 2015, 03:26:27 PM
I bet he doesn't sully it all up with that Linux stuffs :P
Hahahaha, quite an ironic comment, considering Windows PCs are invariably loaded with crapware and NSA backdoors etc. :P
Quote from: Huw the Poo on June 27, 2015, 03:28:27 PM
Quote from: Bison on June 27, 2015, 03:26:27 PM
I bet he doesn't sully it all up with that Linux stuffs :P
Hahahaha, quite an ironic comment, considering Windows PCs are invariably loaded with crapware and NSA backdoors etc. :P
I like to only put up a minimal resistance against the all knowing overlords.
Again guys, thanks for all the help!!
Quote from: Skwerl on June 27, 2015, 05:02:16 PM
Again guys, thanks for all the help!!
Any time. That's one of the reasons Grogheads was created - to help the gaming community.
^And donuts.
Skwerl did you purchase yet?
I'd just add, as Dell screwed me on this one a while back: Make sure your PSU is a "standard form" type (meaning, it's the same physical dimensions as everybody else's PSUs). I got a PC with a non-standard form PSU a while back, and as I was looking at trying to upgrade it, I realized I'd need to pay about $200 more than for a standard-form PSU.
Or, if this is too much technical detail, you can just roll the dice. I don't think non-standard PSUs are very common these days.
I thought people no longer did the proprietary components because they got slammed for doing it. How many years ago was it (I could be wrong and some companies still do it).
Gus,
I just ordered it! It should be here in a couple of weeks.
Nice, where'd you wind up getting it from?
Directly from HP. Their prices were very competitive.
Hmm I would never think to consider them.