What is the story on these two? I recall reading that one was the best Total war game and the other was the worst. Help?
Quote from: solops on June 29, 2015, 12:52:44 PM
What is the story on these two? I recall reading that one was the best Total war game and the other was the worst. Help?
They are both awesome, although that won't stop some people from whining and moaning about one thing or another. Generally, I think most would take the position that Napoleon is the more polished of the two.
but with a much smaller scope
Love them both as well!.. Seems like a lot of people do not like these versions, but I have had spent many hours of fun playing both of them!
I liked Empire the most, but I didn't find it worth playing without DarthMod.
I'm one of JH's moaners...wait...never mind.
Suffice it to say that in every aspect of Napoleonic warfare that I find relevant, N:TW fails and that rather badly.
Troop scale, ground scale, terrain scale, weapon effectiveness (particularly relative one to another), troop formations, and even some of the purposes to which different troop types were put are all poorly done...and that leaves the rubbish of the naval game to the side. It's an ancients system that was never intended for the black powder era and it shows at every turn.
I also, and this is a personal grievance I'll warrant, could never get either E:TW or N:TW working properly on my home rig even though I can easily run Rome II at all the highest settings with no problem whatsoever.
Strangely, perhaps because I care much less about the Lace Wars era, I wasn't driven half so mad by the experience of E:TW and even managed to finish an entire Grand Campaign.
At the least, there's absolutely no need to pay anything approaching Steam retail for either game as they go on sale for less than $10 fairly frequently. If you're not looking for anything approaching historical verisimilitude, there's a lot of game there for that price. I think of both games as the gaming equivalent of pixie sticks.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
I'll second what Swatter said. Darthmod is a big plus for both games and I liked ETW better than NTW. The hits on Empire relate to the game being very broken at release. I thought Shogun 2 was a bit better than both the aforementioned but it's close. Empire's world map is probably the largest of any TW game. Napoleon's combat maybe better than Empire.
I liked Empire and Napoleon the least in the series...it's been so long since I played either I can't even recall why.
Quote from: Cyrano on June 29, 2015, 02:13:23 PM
I'm one of JH's moaners...wait...never mind.
Suffice it to say that in every aspect of Napoleonic warfare that I find relevant, N:TW fails and that rather badly.
Troop scale, ground scale, terrain scale, weapon effectiveness (particularly relative one to another), troop formations, and even some of the purposes to which different troop types were put are all poorly done...and that leaves the rubbish of the naval game to the side. It's an ancients system that was never intended for the black powder era and it shows at every turn.
I also, and this is a personal grievance I'll warrant, could never get either E:TW or N:TW working properly on my home rig even though I can easily run Rome II at all the highest settings with no problem whatsoever.
Strangely, perhaps because I care much less about the Lace Wars era, I wasn't driven half so mad by the experience of E:TW and even managed to finish an entire Grand Campaign.
At the least, there's absolutely no need to pay anything approaching Steam retail for either game as they go on sale for less than $10 fairly frequently. If you're not looking for anything approaching historical verisimilitude, there's a lot of game there for that price. I think of both games as the gaming equivalent of pixie sticks.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
See, but this critique is not fair in my opinion. The game was never meant to be an ultra realistic simulation of 18th and 19th century warfare. If that is what you are looking for, then yes, might was well not bother...but I don't think it is right to knock a game for being what it is not, and what it was never meant or advertised to be.
its one thing to say it is simply not your cup of tea and then pass on it, but its another thing completely to attack the game and urge someone to avoid paying retail for it because it is not what you wanted or hoped it would be. Quite frankly, I've certainly received my money's worth, and then some. And to say its the "gaming equivalent of pixie sticks"? Come on...that is just gratuitously inaccurate and offensive to those who enjoy it.
I think the critique is fair, but I do not dispute for a moment that there's a whole lot of "courses for horses" where the critic is obligated to explain why a game like this hacks him off. In fact, last time I slagged N:TW hereabouts one of our forum colleagues contacted me off-line and asked, in effect, "dude, why so angry?"
I did want more from these games because I wanted them to be at least different if not better than they turned out to be. Others here and elsewhere have judged N:TW and E:TW within the confines of the TW series which, of course, comes with its own set of assumptions, and found them wanting. For me -- although I've played every one of the damn things from Shogun forward -- that really wasn't ever an option. Maybe, because of my love of the era, I couldn't bear the system's cheats and abstractions anymore. They were always there, but it was all so damn pretty. Maybe, on the contrary, I'm just a fun-killing, aging git. I note in passing that these are not mutually exclusive. Whatever the case, I can't bear the thing for reasons aforesaid.
That others have enjoyed it and some immensely is unquestionable and perhaps I even envy them a bit.
Best,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
I hated Empire for its strategic AI, which badly suffered from the "Black Knight syndrome" even worse than most TW titles (and was never really fixed from what I saw).
I like them both...Empire is more for me because of the time period and scope. In the end...its total war, not Histwar. It's like complaining about Panzer general because it's nort War in the East
I just bought Empire Total War last weekend for $5 on the Steam sale. It had overall good reviews both by users and by critics.
Both are good games in my humble opinion with Napoleon being slightly more polished than Empire. These games are not to be taken seriously and if you just play them to have fun they're both good. I prefer Empire simply because the map covers pretty much most of the civilized world at the time.
To be fair, you can't tell how seriously not to take the games from their marketing campaigns. ::)
From the stated intentions of the publishers they were meant to be taken seriously as strategic games for the period, and as tactical games for the period. If we have to plant our tongues firmly in cheek to enjoy playing them, they still failed to meet the expectations generated by Creative Assembly marketing -- in that broad sense. (They also failed to provide a particularly stable game for Empire on release, and for a long time afterward.)
As gorgeous games which feature a lot of somewhat-relevant strategic/cultural management and tactical action, I think they undoubtedly succeed, assuming you can get them to run stably. ;) There have been many competitors but the Total War series is still, very deservedly, the champion for this kind of game, despite its frequent warts and aberrant mutations.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 29, 2015, 04:02:44 PM
To be fair, you can't tell how seriously not to take the games from their marketing campaigns. ::)
From the stated intentions of the publishers they were meant to be taken seriously as strategic games for the period, and as tactical games for the period. If we have to plant our tongues firmly in cheek to enjoy playing them, they still failed to meet the expectations generated by Creative Assembly marketing -- in that broad sense. (They also failed to provide a particularly stable game for Empire on release, and for a long time afterward.)
As gorgeous games which feature a lot of somewhat-relevant strategic/cultural management and tactical action, I think they undoubtedly succeed, assuming you can get them to run stably. ;) There have been many competitors but the Total War series is still, very deservedly, the champion for this kind of game, despite its frequent warts and aberrant mutations.
Sorry...only a fool would look at the promotional materials and think they were going to get an authentic historical military gaming experience. Especially in light of the past offerings in the series. Empire and Napoleon were what? Games number 5 and 6 in the Total War series? The world was well on notice. The games do offer an undeniably strategic experience in terms of campaign and tactical battles. That may not be an entirely authentic strategic experience, but I don't think that makes their marketing disingenuous.
If you want a good RTS that has the look of the era represented and isn't terribly taxing to play, these are good games. I'd agree that these are not wargames that reflect the military realities of the periods represented, but they can be good fun. There are some interesting tactical and strategic situations that you can run into, from a kind of general perspective.
TW:N seemed more "finished" to me on release, but as someone else mentioned TW:E turned into a decent game, especially with the Darthmod added.
So, I guess it depends on what you're after. The TW games are a series of great RTS games that provide period flavor. If you really want to play something that's more accurate to the period, these are probably not it, but if you want the spectacle of that period, these'll do.
I dunno, from their very own Steam page:
Advanced weaponry enables new tactical options and even more exciting real-time battles on an epic scale, while the highly detailed environments and improved battlefield buildings guarantee a realistic recreation of famous historical battles.
::)
Of course, I kid...
In case anyone here is interested, I give you...Victoria: Total War (open beta):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?693179-DOWNLOAD-VICTORIA-TOTAL-WAR-0-2-OPEN-BETA-DOWNLOAD
Quote from: Gusington on June 29, 2015, 07:40:23 PM
In case anyone here is interested, I give you...Victoria: Total War (open beta):
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?693179-DOWNLOAD-VICTORIA-TOTAL-WAR-0-2-OPEN-BETA-DOWNLOAD
Seems like it has a long way to go.
I played ETW only once. Played as Indians. United India, resisted the British and conquered the Persians... The game ended with me extending my empire to Jerusalem. As for other TW games, I played several times but only won once. My problem with Empire was the AI. It was a cake walk but it was quite fun.
Quote from: Cyrano on June 29, 2015, 07:39:31 PM
I dunno, from their very own Steam page:
Advanced weaponry enables new tactical options and even more exciting real-time battles on an epic scale, while the highly detailed environments and improved battlefield buildings guarantee a realistic recreation of famous historical battles.
::)
Of course, I kid...
Lol. Yeah, well Chrysler says they build quality cars too but you know what your getting.
My biggest problem with ETW is that the AI doesn't seem capable of moving forces from Europe to either India or the Americas and this makes it pretty easy for the player to roll both of them up in short order.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on June 29, 2015, 08:35:25 PM
My biggest problem with ETW is that the AI doesn't seem capable of moving forces from Europe to either India or the Americas and this makes it pretty easy for the player to roll both of them up in short order.
[/quote
With Darth Mod I have seen forces moved from Europe to both the Americas and India. ]
Quote from: Gusington on June 29, 2015, 02:23:09 PM
I liked Empire and Napoleon the least in the series...it's been so long since I played either I can't even recall why.
I didn't like anything about them at all. I gave up on the whole Total War series until I played the Shogun2 demo. I've been a total
fanboi from then on.
Quote from: mikeck on June 29, 2015, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: Cyrano on June 29, 2015, 07:39:31 PM
I dunno, from their very own Steam page:
Advanced weaponry enables new tactical options and even more exciting real-time battles on an epic scale, while the highly detailed environments and improved battlefield buildings guarantee a realistic recreation of famous historical battles.
::)
Of course, I kid...
Lol. Yeah, well Chrysler says they build quality cars too but you know what your getting.
And that was my point. No one thinks Chrysler succeeds in meeting their marketing, and so
in that sense the cars "fail". But adjusted for experienced expectations they do okay -- and Creative Assembly has a much stronger position in their market than Chrysler, for good reasons.
I like Empire a great deal, but only when it is patched.
In comparison with the AI from Atilla or even Rome 2, Empire's AI still does weird things sometimes.
And because of the absolutely huge campaign map I find it sometimes hard to focus on key frontlines. But that is a problem I have with more TW titles and their strategic maps. :)
What I *really* love about Empire is its naval Warfare.
Those big wooden behemoths clashing at Sea is to me what Longobeards on land are for certain other individuals! Loin moistening greatness! ;)
Forgot that Empire TW was the first in the series to offer naval combat...for.that it should get some credit.
I love ETW.
Is NTW worth a purchase if I already have ETW?
It certainly is worth 5€ : http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-NTWB/napoleon-total-war
Quote from: Gusington on July 02, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
Forgot that Empire TW was the first in the series to offer naval combat...for.that it should get some credit.
It was the biggest reason I was looking forward to it.
I still would like to see Empire 2, if it can be done right. Fix the AI (especially regarding diplomacy), fix the land battles, and bring back either Jeff van Dyck or Ian Livingstone & Simon Ravn to do the music (no offense to anyone who liked it, but Empire's soundtrack sucked big time).
Quote from: solops on June 29, 2015, 12:52:44 PM
What is the story on these two? I recall reading that one was the best Total war game and the other was the worst. Help?
Like the Empire TW time frame & scale more. But the vanilla version had some terrible battle behaviors, unfitting for the period, and stupid AI diplo and army management on the campaign layer. Napoleon TW fixed some of those issues, but not all.
The leap in quality from Napoleon to Shogun 2 was huge.
^I have to agree.
If I had to choose, I would take Napoleon over Empire.
Also, I have been hoping for a Victoria: TW forever. Done by CA, never mind the mods.
Bizarrely enough, even though I found Empire to be disappointing, it's the Total War game I put the most time into. It had limitless potential, and even though Napoleon is the better game, objectively, Empire is always the one I go back to when I'm visiting an older Total War.
I actually reloaded it this week to finally give the Imperial Splendor mod a try. So far, it's very interesting as it features early period units and a lot more variety in nation rosters. The lack of early, middle and late units really got to me in the vanilla game, and IS fixes that.
The new tactical realism submod for IS also changes things up, but it seems to be in early stages. Musketry in the submod has been made essentially useless, which is a bit of an overreaction. Fatigue has also been turned into a cohesion mechanic, which forces the commander to very sparingly use units lest they break from lack of organization. Even though it needs tweaking it leads to some more realistic opening era battles, where the issue is decided more by a carefully timed charge than it is by plugging away with musket fire and never closing. It has a lot of potential. I'm not sure it's better than Darthmod, but it's absolutely worth a look.
Quote from: Gusington on July 02, 2015, 04:21:23 PM
^I have to agree.
If I had to choose, I would take Napoleon over Empire.
Also, I have been hoping for a Victoria: TW forever. Done by CA, never mind the mods.
Yes Shogun 2 Fall oF the Samurai already has some Victorian elements.
I have to say...Medieval War II, with the Viking expansion is still my favorite. Nothing like the raiding parties from the north..and the very cool game mechanic of allowing them to retreat back out into the ocean when threatened.
I wanted an ACW version for Empire or Fall of the Samurai. There's a mod in the works for FOTS but I'll probably never live long enough to see it. And a mod for Empire that's never been finished I think. FOTS Would be perfect with the Ironclad warships.
Hey, I can say something positive...cool...
+1 to Dennis. M:TW (II, particularly) got its hooks very deeply into me and has never let go. I still have two GCs floating around in my hard drive that I poke at from time to time. Like most 4Xs, though, you get to that tipping point where you're certain to win but you start to debate if the flame of victory is worth the candle of finishing. As I suggested earlier, this system is better built for this era and ancients and trying to smuggle it into black powder was smacking a square peg really, really hard into a round hole.
It was the original Medieval: TW that had the Viking expansion, fyi.