Generally I don't get too bent out of shape over game prices. I understand and accept that new board games run in the $40-100 range at the LGS, but man some times the game doesn't seem to justify the cost.
For example today I was looking at a copy of 1775: Rebellion (I think is the title) and was about ready to just pull the trigger and use it as the oldest's introduction to wargaming. And then I saw the price and was like no freaking way. $70 and the box was just larger than a cigar box. Unless the components are super stellar I just cannot justify the cost.
I don't even want to think about any of the FFG titles, but at least you know there are a good number of quality components to help justify the cost.
I've always looked at board game pricing a little differently. How many hours of enjoyment do I get from the game? If I can play a game 4 or 5 times at least, that puts it on par with going to movies. Sadly, there are some boardgames that don't really cut it by this criteria.
I agree with the value of entertainment. As you say compared to other activities, the price of board game will more than be made up for if it sees the table regularly. And I think that is the crux of my issue. I'm trying to be deliberate with my board game purchases not only because of the cost, but the space to store and ultimately will the game be played often enough to justify the price. I like to do research on my games. Read forums, reviews, watch let's play and unboxing videos and see how they stack up in terms of quality of components and the style of gameplay compared to similar games. However, I always get a little hesitant to pull out the card to buy a new game because of the unknown factor of "is this something X person will like enough to learn and play". And then I develop a severe analysis paralysis of hemming and hawing and 99% of the time walk away without a game. And in the end, it's the price that is hard to justify if the game doesn't go over well.
Interesting topic and one that I was discussing with a gaming buddy on Saturday while playing at our FLGS. We were talking about how we want to (and do) support our FLGS as there's just not that many bricks and mortar game stores that carry full lines of wargames but those prices! My friend and I discussed that we do support our store, just with reasonable purchases. For example, I spent $60 the other day buying loads of 10mm ACW mini's. I could of saved some by shopping online but with shipping (especially if some of that couldn't be bundled) the savings would of been minimal. But full price plus a little markup for overhead for some games is just too much. For example, the game "1775" that you reference: coolstuffinc.com has it for $48 new and there's sellers on the Geek with "like new" copies for $40. You're just crazy to spend nearly twice that much to get it at a store.
Quote from: Bison on August 04, 2015, 05:35:58 PM
Generally I don't get too bent out of shape over game prices. I understand and accept that new board games run in the $40-100 range at the LGS, but man some times the game doesn't seem to justify the cost.
For example today I was looking at a copy of 1775: Rebellion (I think is the title) and was about ready to just pull the trigger and use it as the oldest's introduction to wargaming. And then I saw the price and was like no freaking way. $70 and the box was just larger than a cigar box. Unless the components are super stellar I just cannot justify the cost.
I don't even want to think about any of the FFG titles, but at least you know there are a good number of quality components to help justify the cost.
Bison,
I perked an interest in '1775: Rebellion' game awhile back, but never pulled the trigger in the end because of other distractions. I read once that the map is beautiful, and it was obvious that thought and consideration were put into the components overall. From pics I've seen myself of the map, it is nice looking. Noble Knight Games has a copy for $55, but admittedly it would probably be reaching for $70 after shipping.
If you're interested in the same time period, I would recommend 'Hold the Line' from Worthington Games as a great introductory wargame. I bought it a few years back with the French and Indian War expansion, and I still pull it it out and play it every few months. It's half the price of '1775: Rebellion'--around $35. Well worth the price imho.
GJK,
Oops! I forgot about the Geek site! :)
Groggy
There are a couple of game systems that I collect and am content to let them sit on the shelf until I can teach my boys or find a regular opponent, i.e. Combat Commander and ASL. But I don't want shelves of games in a collection that don't get played and cost me a ton of money to boot. So will they get played is a major factor.
I'm with you on the LGS GJK. Honestly I'd be more inclined to spend the money, if they actually organized game nights other than MtG and the occasional Star Wars X-wing. But they don't and it's a missed opportunity on their part as far as I'm concerned. I'd spend money on a game there if I thought if nothing else it could get occasional game play there, but I have no expectation that it will. Also you're absolutely right. I can find the same game online for $25-30 cheaper. I don't know maybe if it was $50 I would have pulled the trigger and took the risk.
Quote from: GroggyGrognard on August 04, 2015, 11:15:39 PM
If you're interested in the same time period, I would recommend 'Hold the Line' from Worthington Games as a great introductory wargame. I bought it a few years back with the French and Indian War expansion, and I still pull it it out and play it every few months. It's half the price of '1775: Rebellion'--around $35. Well worth the price imho.
+1 great introductory wargame.
I've not been stopping by the local game store as much as I used to, for a couple reasons.
First, the numerous games or expansions on my want list are rarely in stock when I show up. "We'll get more in next week" or "do you want us to order it for you?" just doesn't cut it for me. I can do that myself, get it delivered to my door faster and a good deal cheaper without having to spend an hour long round-trip to get it. Having things in stock is really the only advantage the brick & mortar has for me, here, because I've never spent time playing anything on their tables.
I don't mind buying occasional items from the local store, at a higher price, but they need to stock the stuff. Unfortunately, the demand has been constantly outweighing their stock orders, so it's been the norm. :-\
I also noticed price tags jump about a year ago, some being priced over suggested retail. The place is always busy when I'm there, and they have more employees than I've ever seen, so it's not like business went suddenly south.
Those two things have kinda pushed me away from shopping there lately. I plan on moving to a different city in another year or two, so hopefully new store(s) will be a bit more to my liking.
^ And you have a great LGS too. They run events, have a huge selection, and it's even clean. You're a grump!
I do find the "can we order it for you?" question to be annoying. Well let me think, is a 1 minute process worth $$ just so I can drive here and pick it up from you? The answer is no.
Quote from: Bison on August 05, 2015, 09:46:15 AM
^ And you have a great LGS too. They run events, have a huge selection, and it's even clean. You're a grump!
I know. I
am a bitch when it comes to many things. >:D
They really are a
friendly LGS and have been around for a long time for good reason. I still drop in for some impulse buying when I'm down there, once every month or two. Lately it's just been a small expansion or a few Vallejo paints, though, since all the titles on my "want soon" list haven't been in stock. Or something I saw there last time, and planned to pick up, had been sold and not replaced. :'( "It's probably for the best anyway", says my wallet.
I'll probably miss it when I move back down to Springfield. Then again, I'll have more old buddies to game against down there so that will more than make up for it.
If I lived a closer, I'd be there every week for one of the game night events and most likely would have picked up a nasty miniatures habit along the way.
Quote from: Bison on August 05, 2015, 11:22:56 AM
If I lived a closer, I'd be there every week for one of the game night events and most likely would have picked up a nasty miniatures habit along the way.
Tuesday night is minis night at Gamers Armory, just FYI. Wednesday is board games. Friday night Magic, plus weekend leagues. Used to be that Mondays were wargames, but some of the can't-make-it-on-Wednesday board gamers have started colonizing Monday nights.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 05, 2015, 11:50:21 AM
Quote from: Bison on August 05, 2015, 11:22:56 AM
If I lived a closer, I'd be there every week for one of the game night events and most likely would have picked up a nasty miniatures habit along the way.
Tuesday night is minis night at Gamers Armory, just FYI. Wednesday is board games. Friday night Magic, plus weekend leagues. Used to be that Mondays were wargames, but some of the can't-make-it-on-Wednesday board gamers have started colonizing Monday nights.
I was actually drooling over their robust gaming event schedule last night. And that's what I don't get about the LGS here. What do they lose by putting out a similar schedule? The worst that can happen is no one shows up for the event. But I suspect they'd get at least a handful of gamers and gets sales in the process. Of course one of the LGS is ran by a guy who has never heard of GMT, I nearly cried after that conversation.
Quote from: Bison on August 05, 2015, 12:00:29 PM
I was actually drooling over their robust gaming event schedule last night. And that's what I don't get about the LGS here. What do they lose by putting out a similar schedule? The worst that can happen is no one shows up for the event. But I suspect they'd get at least a handful of gamers and gets sales in the process. Of course one of the LGS is ran by a guy who has never heard of GMT, I nearly cried after that conversation.
Can't say for others but the ones near here, although over 1 hour away and not really nearby, run things more like a toy store and not a game store. They cater to the CCG and RC car/plane crowds and only seem to keep a few wargames on hand, usually tucked away in the corner of the building.
For The Gamers Armory, I try to order all my games through them. I figure if I can't support a LGS, might as well help support someone elses especially considering the effort Scott and the others seem to put in there.
Quote from: Double Deuce on August 05, 2015, 12:12:04 PM
Can't say for others but the ones near here, although over 1 hour away and not really nearby, run things more like a toy store and not a game store. They cater to the CCG and RC car/plane crowds and only seem to keep a few wargames on hand, usually tucked away in the corner of the building.
This is pretty much the deal here, too. None of the LGS have wargames anymore. There are a couple of clubs and really none of them play wargames, either. I used to pop in and try to strike up a conversation, but if it wasn't CGG or some sort of GW minis, they weren't interested. I'm the same as Nefaro and Bison - if you say "we can order it for you" you've pretty much given up any advantage of having a brick and mortar location.
Yeah, wargames have become a niche within a niche. One of the local shops I play at also has a meetup.com group online so I posted that I was looking for opponents. I've had a few offers to play Axis & Allies and that's about it. There are only two others that regularly show up who are willing to play wargames at all. One of the Axis & Allies guys showed up so we decided to try out what we all thought was a relatively simple beer & pretzels type game,Command and Colours. The poor bugger's eyes just kind of glazed over. He left right after the game ended and posted a negative review of the store an hour later, claiming that it was for die hard history fanatics only.
I have games like Bomber Command, Empire of the Sun, Paths of Glory, Squad Leader, etc that I'd like to play but I rarely get a chance to as the most complex title the majority of the people who show up have been willing to try would be Twilight Struggle or Puerto Rico.
I guess I'm very fortunate here. Open tables and lots of wargamer's at the main LGS with Sundays being any type of miniatures day. You're not going to see a monster game being played though since obviously they can't be finished in a day nor left set up there so you'll see more C&C:A/N type stuff but I have played Up Front there a number of times as well as some small-medium sized ASL scenarios. There's a group of us that meet there regularly (well, them much more so than me) and they've now invaded a new location that used to be only CDG's/Euro's. They invaded that location because they serve beer. :) They convinced the owner that if they pay like a $5 cover, would it be ok to play whatever they like and the owner agreed. Now the group has grown as many onlookers have begun to sit at the wargamer's tables. That and I have my local ASL group that meets every month so I am quite fortunate.
What really helps here is that the store owner (Scott) is a wargamer himself. His wife has even been known to jump into some ASL games on occasion as well, and can competently tag in for him if he has to go deal with a customer issue.
edit: now that his son is old enough, he'll occasionally take the reins if the parents need to handle a business issue.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 05, 2015, 06:20:35 PM
His wife has even been known to jump into some ASL games on occasion as well, and can competently tag in for him if he has to go deal with a customer issue.
That's hawt.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 05, 2015, 06:20:35 PM
His wife has even been known to jump into some ASL games on occasion as well, and can competently tag in for him if he has to go deal with a customer issue.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F500x%2F45052902.jpg&hash=fa50e3764845dfe1488deccf8011f50c512ed958)
Quote from: GJK on August 05, 2015, 06:18:56 PM
There's a group of us that meet there regularly (well, them much more so than me) and they've now invaded a new location that used to be only CDG's/Euro's. They invaded that location because they serve beer. :) They convinced the owner that if they pay like a $5 cover, would it be ok to play whatever they like and the owner agreed. Now the group has grown as many onlookers have begun to sit at the wargamer's tables.
I guess I'm confused why the owner would care what they played if they were buying drinks and not disturbing other gamers.
Quote from: Bison on August 05, 2015, 06:33:57 PM
Quote from: GJK on August 05, 2015, 06:18:56 PM
There's a group of us that meet there regularly (well, them much more so than me) and they've now invaded a new location that used to be only CDG's/Euro's. They invaded that location because they serve beer. :) They convinced the owner that if they pay like a $5 cover, would it be ok to play whatever they like and the owner agreed. Now the group has grown as many onlookers have begun to sit at the wargamer's tables.
I guess I'm confused why the owner would care what they played if they were buying drinks and not disturbing other gamers.
FLGS carries a decent line of wargames. Not everything, but I pinged him yesterday about Wing Leader. He checked his orders and told me two copies were due to arrive today. I'm headed there tonight for some gaming. Not sure I want to pay full retail, but he runs a kick-ass store. Word is he sells a lot of wargames, but I think all the wargamers actually play at home. Have met a couple of guys who claim to be wargamers but in the store all we (including me) play is other stuff.
Might have to change that if I get Wing Leader. It seems to be calling my name.
Do it LB! Bring in the wargaming love to the FLGS!
Quote from: Bison on August 05, 2015, 06:33:57 PM
Quote from: GJK on August 05, 2015, 06:18:56 PM
There's a group of us that meet there regularly (well, them much more so than me) and they've now invaded a new location that used to be only CDG's/Euro's. They invaded that location because they serve beer. :) They convinced the owner that if they pay like a $5 cover, would it be ok to play whatever they like and the owner agreed. Now the group has grown as many onlookers have begun to sit at the wargamer's tables.
I guess I'm confused why the owner would care what they played if they were buying drinks and not disturbing other gamers.
They wanted to play games (wargames) that they don't stock and wanted to just make sure it was cool so they've offered to cover table space rental.
Must be nice to have a FLGS. Not so much here...unless I feel like driving an hour to face double MSRP pricing and a 'delightfully' embittered work force! Huzzah!
On the other hand, there are now two pretty good board gaming cafes in the city, and one of them has a solid selection of newer games. O0
Quote from: Bison on August 05, 2015, 06:39:51 PM
Do it LB! Bring in the wargaming love to the FLGS!
Done. I'll post some pics in the Wing Leader thread sometime today.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 05, 2015, 05:05:29 PM
Yeah, wargames have become a niche within a niche. One of the local shops I play at also has a meetup.com group online so I posted that I was looking for opponents. I've had a few offers to play Axis & Allies and that's about it. There are only two others that regularly show up who are willing to play wargames at all. One of the Axis & Allies guys showed up so we decided to try out what we all thought was a relatively simple beer & pretzels type game,Command and Colours. The poor bugger's eyes just kind of glazed over. He left right after the game ended and posted a negative review of the store an hour later, claiming that it was for die hard history fanatics only.
Wow! I actually laughed about that one.
I left the area of NC where they have nice LGS (the one in Cary had a preview game of the Grand tactical Gold, Juno, Sword game a few months ago!). Maybe there are stores in Boone or Ashville.
Meng - you should've pinged me! I'm at Gamer's Armory a lot :)
We also have 2 other good stores in town here, and another not far away in Durham. We're fortunate, I know.
When I look what I got in the box for The Great War which came at the similar price to a console game I think boardgames offer alot for the money. Considering digital games once made don't require much in the way of production costs I do think boardgames are pretty cheap.
Quote from: TacticalWargames on August 06, 2015, 10:16:25 AM
When I look what I got in the box for The Great War which came at the similar price to a console game I think boardgames offer alot for the money. Considering digital games once made don't require much in the way of production costs I do think boardgames are pretty cheap.
The cost of stamping out a DVD is minimal, but the lead time to get all the code written, tested, and working can be enormous. That's where the real costs lie.
Quote from: GJK on August 05, 2015, 06:18:56 PM
I guess I'm very fortunate here. Open tables and lots of wargamer's at the main LGS with Sundays being any type of miniatures day. You're not going to see a monster game being played though since obviously they can't be finished in a day nor left set up there so you'll see more C&C:A/N type stuff but I have played Up Front there a number of times as well as some small-medium sized ASL scenarios. There's a group of us that meet there regularly (well, them much more so than me) and they've now invaded a new location that used to be only CDG's/Euro's. They invaded that location because they serve beer. :) They convinced the owner that if they pay like a $5 cover, would it be ok to play whatever they like and the owner agreed. Now the group has grown as many onlookers have begun to sit at the wargamer's tables. That and I have my local ASL group that meets every month so I am quite fortunate.
I even did a playtest there for my upcoming game series too. So you never know what you will run into in that LGS.
Good Hunting.
MR
Our niche within a niche may have supply problems with China's largest port recently trying to blow itself apart. I would expect some pretty hefty delays caused by the events of the past couple of days.
Good Hunting.
MR
Funny you post this, because I just received a couple of emails from Bill Gibbs, of OMEGA Games. He announced three games...Singapore, Barbarossa, and Vengeance.
Here's the pricing he quoted to me:
QuoteSingapore's Colonel edition: $417.69 or 3 payments of $163.80 I will determine the postage this week. It will not be anything like it is from another country.
Barbarossa's Colonel edition pre-order price today: $371.28 or 3 payments of $145.60
Vengeance's Colonel edition pre-order price today: $397.80 or 3 payments of $156.00
A PAYMENT plan for board games?
I guess that's where we've been headed for a while now.
Still, check out this excerpt regarding Singapore: if you like monster games, well, this sounds like it's going to redefine the genre.
QuoteSingapore! covers December 1941 through to August 1945, including the Burma, Ceylon, Eastern India, Malaya, Thailand, Netherlands East Indies (excluding New Guinea) and Vichy Indo China (excluding the very far north of Vietnam) utilising 22 maps – 19 of which measure approximately 3 foot by 1 ½ foot. 3 measure slightly less than that – a printing artefact as they are presented in portrait format. The attached PDF map layout shows how the various maps form up. Total map area is approximately 72 Sq Ft, and from the key you can see how you can split the areas up to provide much more manageable (gaming table or coffee table sized) elements. This is a unique product dealing with campaigns that have never before been released as games, and have only rarely been covered even partially in other products, and as such we feel that it is an exceptional introduction to the world of TSWW, which without doubt is the world's premier operational gaming experience.
----
In terms of counters, the game includes 2800 playing and generic counters, representing over 60 division equivalents of troops, about 4000 planes, and some 600 naval vessels that served in the map area during WW2. With a zone that is roughly 2000 miles on each side, it shows the critical nature of combined arms operations, the huge difficulties faced by both sides in gaining sea control, air superiority and winning in hard fought ground combat in some of the worst terrain fought over during WW2.
I mean, holy shit. 22 maps, 19 of which are 3' x 1.5'?
Total map area of 72 square feet?!? 2800 counters? Dayuum. No wonder it's so expensive.
^you know that sounds great, but I have a hard enough time punching, clipping, prepping and playing my non-monster board games.
If anyone else would like to buy a game like that, feel free to get it ready and invite me over for a week so we can play. ;D
I can't imagine the detail on those maps. This is only covering Southeast Asia and surrounding areas. That size (one assumes for a full campaign) would be incredibly huge just for a Pacific campaign, let alone a microcosm of it.
Somewhere betwixt Stratego: Waterloo and this there is a sign that reads: "No matter what your heart tells you, no matter what your soul wishes, you will play this on a computer or not at all.:
I can't even tell you how much I want this just to have it and how equally certain I am that products like this are glorious, glorious nonsense.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 14, 2015, 08:34:24 AM
Funny you post this, because I just received a couple of emails from Bill Gibbs, of OMEGA Games. He announced three games...Singapore, Barbarossa, and Vengeance.
Here's the pricing he quoted to me:
QuoteSingapore's Colonel edition: $417.69 or 3 payments of $163.80 I will determine the postage this week. It will not be anything like it is from another country.
Barbarossa's Colonel edition pre-order price today: $371.28 or 3 payments of $145.60
Vengeance's Colonel edition pre-order price today: $397.80 or 3 payments of $156.00
A PAYMENT plan for board games?
I guess that's where we've been headed for a while now.
Still, check out this excerpt regarding Singapore: if you like monster games, well, this sounds like it's going to redefine the genre.
I mean, holy shit. 22 maps, 19 of which are 3' x 1.5'? Total map area of 72 square feet?!? 2800 counters? Dayuum. No wonder it's so expensive.
Holy fucktits Batman!
I'm almost speechless. Almost.
You guys are certified masochists who make me feel better about my game collecting habits. I believed I was the worst, but you suckaz proved me wrong. Thank you. :))
Nef there's NO WAY in hell I'mma spend that kind of money on a board game.
The only way I'd ever have it on my table is with a free review copy. And I already asked and his (nice but to the point) reply was not conducive to such an arrangement, I'm afraid.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 14, 2015, 11:28:05 AM
Nef there's NO WAY in hell I'mma spend that kind of money on a board game.
The only way I'd ever have it on my table is with a free review copy. And I already asked and his (nice but to the point) reply was not conducive to such an arrangement, I'm afraid.
Well... I don't feel so estranged now.
Maybe it's up to JD to leap that far? :))
Quote from: Nefaro on August 14, 2015, 01:52:51 PM
Maybe it's up to JD to leap that far? :))
Let's get JD! He'll buy anything!
Quote from: mirth on August 14, 2015, 02:30:39 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on August 14, 2015, 01:52:51 PM
Maybe it's up to JD to leap that far? :))
Let's get JD! He'll buy anything!
Are you sure? I'm still waiting on our grog fortress.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 14, 2015, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: mirth on August 14, 2015, 02:30:39 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on August 14, 2015, 01:52:51 PM
Maybe it's up to JD to leap that far? :))
Let's get JD! He'll buy anything!
Are you sure? I'm still waiting on our grog fortress.
I wonder if the "Dare" trick works, without his owner finding out. >:D
Well let's all be freaking honest here there are many, many games board and minis that cost that amount of money. I've got about $300 into ASL and I'm not even close to having just the core sets. I really, really need them to reprint Yanks! This guys just puts it out front this game is going to cost you a car payment. Fantasy Flights Games deceives you with games like Star Wars X-wing, because $15 for a mini doesn't seem too bad until you need 20 of them or the $100 epic ships. Just saying...
Quote from: Bison on August 14, 2015, 05:36:38 PM
Well let's all be freaking honest here there are many, many games board and minis that cost that amount of money. I've got about $300 into ASL and I'm not even close to having just the core sets. I really, really need them to reprint Yanks! This guys just puts it out front this game is going to cost you a car payment. Fantasy Flights Games deceives you with games like Star Wars X-wing, because $15 for a mini doesn't seem too bad until you need 20 of them or the $100 epic ships. Just saying...
For the right game...say six guys playing and able to replay the game over and over...that might pass.
Unfortunately, without a review from someone I trust like BC, I have zero interest in ponying up cash for it.
No I agree with you in terms of learning about the game play, how it works or doesn't, etc...My point is just simply that $300 is not an unheard of amount for a game system. I suspect that the majority here have invested that much money or more into the game. I think it's the upfront sticker shock that really gets people. It's why have haven't jumped at Star Wars Imperial Assault or Twilight Imperium 3 yet. $100 is just so much, but in reality other games cost routinely $40 to $60 for the base game. Anyway the money aspect of the hobby is something that often gives me pause when I'm thinking about buying into a game. Not to mention it better freaking hold my attention and is something that will get table time at some point during my life. :)
Yeah.. FFG definitely has an expansion/add-on thing with some of their more popular titles.
The Descent/Imperial Assault series has, or will have in the case of IA, a lot of expansions. Those big box expansions are a good value IMO, judging by Descent. But they quickly add up in price. Add to that all the small creature/character packs, which have drawn some appropriate criticism IMO, and it can get damn pricey. $10-$13 for a miniature and a small amount of those little cards is :knuppel2: .
I have numerous game systems that cost over $100, generally after purchasing expansions for them. If I'm buying expansions, that means I enjoyed it, though, and it will be used regularly.
I haven't had much of a desire to buy any Imperial Assault expansions. Not so far, anyway.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 15, 2015, 01:02:02 PM
I haven't had much of a desire to buy any Imperial Assault expansions. Not so far, anyway.
Heresy!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 15, 2015, 01:02:02 PM
I haven't had much of a desire to buy any Imperial Assault expansions. Not so far, anyway.
I've not played it yet, nor started painting the minis, since picking it up months ago. So no expansions for me either. Yet. :P
So many toys!
I can't recall if someone made a
Descent module for Tabletop Simulator (PC), but I wouldn't be surprised if
Imperial Assault got one eventually.
My daughter and I played the intro scenario to Imperial Assault, twice. The Rebels are heavily favored in that one.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on August 17, 2015, 12:47:55 PM
My daughter and I played the intro scenario to Imperial Assault, twice. The Rebels are heavily favored in that one.
It's the same for the heroes in Descent 2nd Ed. Pretty much an Easy Mode tutorial. I intend to just skip the first scenario in a Descent campaign and assume the heroes won if nobody needs to learn the system.
I'm not sure how easy that is to do in Imperial Assault yet, but in Descent it's just a very miniscule modification to the second scenario and both sides get some xp reward either way so no big deal.