Apologies for starting a new thread, but I couldn't find the old one.
WITP -AE is on sale at a normal price this weekend.
In the old days I would have just looked at the price and pulled the trigger.
But the problem is that my understanding is that WITP - AE is a monster game.
I don't want to pour thousands of hours into it. But I like the idea and I like the scale of the map.
So I have two questions.
1) Is WITP - AE the micromanagment nightmare that I suspect it is?
2) Are there enough smaller scenarios that you can play interesting parts of the Pacific war without writing off your marriage, your job, and half your life?
I remember wanting to like Uncommon Valor, but being unable to relate to it.
A scenario that covers the Guadacanal campaign would be nice, as would something in Burma and mainland China, but the idea of making sure that every platoon under my command in the Pacific has the requisite number of clips of ammunition for its officers' sidearms is somewhat terrifying.
LOL! ;D I know Jejo68, and Attilla60 have been playing it together for over 4 years. I'd PM them your questions.
It is a monster game, no doubt about it. It is the most complicated game I have ever owned.
Let me say this, if you love this particular topic, they you will probably find the motivation to get over the learning cliff. I just can stress enough prior interest in the pacific war as a prerequisite. If you want to buy it, you should harbor no illusions- it is detailed and then some.
I personally bought the game recently, mostly because I love the topic. I had to read the manual and watch hours of tutorials and do hours of forum research and obtain help and clarification from forum members (the AE forums contain some of the most intelligent people I have encountered on the internet). The pay off is putting together complex operations and watch them play out.
I found youtube tutorials made it possible to learn, and there is a carrier only scenario for beginers.
I think the biggest hurdle for me with this game is that the interface is clunky and information is not presented as well as it could be. I don't think the supply management stuff wouldn't be as big of a headache as I currently find it if one didn't have to open and close several different sub-screens in order to form a task force, select ships, change unit stances for ground troops, order them loaded, double check space requirements, add more ships, add a fudge factor, check port size, check that the transports are docked, etc. I'd much prefer that this could all be done from one screen and have much of it automated with the ability for the player to go in and modify if he chooses to do so.
What would be the complexity/time multiplying factor compared to Uncommon Valor. I played and love that game. Are there any scenarios of comparable size to UV campaigns? Does it have more complexity? My wallet wants to know before it will give up the $40.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 08, 2015, 02:21:45 PM
I think the biggest hurdle for me with this game is that the interface is clunky and information is not presented as well as it could be. I don't think the supply management stuff wouldn't be as big of a headache as I currently find it if one didn't have to open and close several different sub-screens in order to form a task force, select ships, change unit stances for ground troops, order them loaded, double check space requirements, add more ships, add a fudge factor, check port size, check that the transports are docked, etc. I'd much prefer that this could all be done from one screen and have much of it automated with the ability for the player to go in and modify if he chooses to do so.
This sums up the UI issues with the game quite well, as one example.
There are a couple of shorter scenarios. Battle of Coral Sea is essentially the "Tutorial" -- a very small, very manageable scenario. A couple other more manageable ones, Battle of the Marianas. Guadalcanal is a more substantial scenario. But the grand campaigns are the meat of the game, without question.
I've never played UV so I can't compare. There's no question that the game requires a huge investment of time to learn and play. If you find the Pacific Theater fascinating (as I do), then you may well have the motivation to learn the intricacies of this game. If you only have a passing interest in PTO, I'd pass. Although $40 is a steal. I paid over twice that 7 years ago and have never regretted it. This is one of the 'top 10 games I'd take to a desert island' type game, as far as I'm concerned.
To answer the OP:
Yes, it is a micromanagement nightmare. Period. And anyone who says otherwise is a dirty stinking liar.
No, there aren't enough scenarios of a smaller scale. You get Coral Sea which is really a tutorial, Guadalcanal is something like 12 months or maybe 18 months long. I think there might be one or two similarly sized scenarios- I don't have it installed right now to check- but regardless they're not going to satisfy you like a full campaign will. I wouldn't buy it with the sole intention of playing smaller scenarios. WitP vanilla was better in this regard.
I would say it's at least 5 times more time-consuming than UV, maybe 10 times. It's just so much bigger in every way, and the AE version is just micromanagement hell.
I wonder if a game like War Plan Pacific is better for folks wanting a pacific war game but less micro....never played myself but thought people mostly had positive thoughts...currently on sale for $35 and has a demo to try before buy.
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/KE_Studios/WPP/WPP_page.html
WPP is a fun little game. I was in on the closed beta and enjoyed it immensely.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on August 08, 2015, 04:15:57 PM
I wonder if a game like War Plan Pacific is better for folks wanting a pacific war game but less micro....never played myself but thought people mostly had positive thoughts...currently on sale for $35 and has a demo to try before buy.
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/KE_Studios/WPP/WPP_page.html
I picked it up awhile back. Not bad but a bit too thin on detail for my preference.
I would like to give you an honest opinion on some of the needed info that took me a long time just to find out.
1) when you create a taskforce to move supplies from major dumps to smaller dumps, you have the option for the Taskforce to repeat over and over, you can do this all over, reducing MicroManagement
2) you need to set objective hexes before a planned attack, or your units will suffer, wait until 100% ready, I found this to be the biggest secret that I found. this is why you have week turns and day turns, the week turns means you will be ready sooner InRealLife time
3) you have the option to set all units in the hex with the same orders, not just one order but all, eg set all bombers in hex with same orders, this reduces micromanagement.
4) there is a lot of stuff you wont know from looking at the board, you have to get stuck in with micromanagement, but its like no other game you've played, you feel like your really at war and your the commander.
5) I have spent lots time learning things in this game, but I enjoyed it more and more as I learned, you should not miss this purchase its worth full price. I still cant play, but its the journey
Quote from: gameleaper on August 08, 2015, 05:21:49 PM
you feel like your really at war and your the commander.
In a real war, you have your staff doing micromanaging. The game lets you look at every level of the war. This means you're playing the role of several levels of command.
^ This. And believe me, I'm a fanboy of WitP. But I think my head exploded when I pulled my BBs into port for repairs and after a few turns with no repairs taking place I realized I had to go into the base and set repair priorities for each and every ship. You get to a point where it's just too much.
I love the game. I really think, if you're into the Pacific Theater you owe it to yourself to give the game a try. It is the best Pacific wargame out there. But I really believe that the game would be exponentially better if some of it was just automated. Things like allowing subordinates to control repair priorities, set search arcs for patrol planes, stuff like that. It's hard to explain.
Quote from: gameleaper on August 08, 2015, 05:21:49 PM
I would like to give you an honest opinion on some of the needed info that took me a long time just to find out.
2) you need to set objective hexes before a planned attack, or your units will suffer, wait until 100% ready, I found this to be the biggest secret that I found. this is why you have week turns and day turns, the week turns means you will be ready sooner InRealLife time.
Do you know of any links that explain how to do this? I wasn't even aware of the feature.
When you embark a land unit and click on it, there should be a button for "Set Objective" or something like that. Click that and set it to wherever you are going to assault. Then look for a button that says something like "Set All Units in this TF" or "Hex" and that will auto-set all of them to whatever you just selected.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 08, 2015, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: gameleaper on August 08, 2015, 05:21:49 PM
I would like to give you an honest opinion on some of the needed info that took me a long time just to find out.
2) you need to set objective hexes before a planned attack, or your units will suffer, wait until 100% ready, I found this to be the biggest secret that I found. this is why you have week turns and day turns, the week turns means you will be ready sooner InRealLife time.
Do you know of any links that explain how to do this? I wasn't even aware of the feature.
I havnt read-up this feature for a long while, but Toonces has the method above post, be sure to look at the units properties after you do the objective, as it shows in percentage how ready the unit is, ig you have the game on daily turns it will take a long time to get ready for an attack.
The "set future objective" function has the added benefit of helping you organize your theaters and plans. When new units become available that are attached to Unrestricted commands, I immediately try to figure out where they would be most useful, and then set future objective accordingly. That way, after several turns when the unit has finally made its way from the East Coast to San Francisco, I won't have forgotten what the hell I wanted to do with the thing.
Helps too to pay attention to which command the unit's attached to, so that you don't make a complete hash of the OOB -- I.e. set objective to something like Kodiak or Dutch Harbor for units attached to North Pacific Command, not somewhere nowhere near the NoPac, like Pago Pago...
There's no question that, overall, WITP's UI is insufficient for the game's massive complexity. 2nd party apps like WitP Tracker and Combat Organizer are a must for the grand campaign, as is good ol pencil and notebook. I really wish that weren't the case, but I've made my peace with it and now just accept that the game can't be played any other way...
EDIT -- just to clarify -- Set Future Objective isn't just for places you plan to attack. It's equally beneficial for places you want to defend. Once a unit reaches 100 for its set objective, whether offensive or defensive, the unit will start to gain Experience, up to a certain threshold.
As Allies, since you're on the defensive for a while, Set Future Objective is still very useful for defense.
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 09, 2015, 08:00:56 AM2nd party apps like WitP Tracker and Combat Organizer are a must for the grand campaign, as is good ol pencil and notebook.
I see the thread for WitP Tracker at Matrix but where do I find out more about Combat Organizer?
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2456864 (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2456864)
Combat Reporter has less functionality than Tracker, but it's a very handy tool for reviewing turns, since it actually pinpoints on the map where things took place (good example of something the UI should do on its own but doesn't)
Just thinking this over a bit --
I think the real 'issue' with WitP AE isn't so much the "micromanagement problem." I think that's a bit of a red herring in some ways. Yes, the game requires micromanagement, not denying that. Yes, the UI isn't really sufficient to help you do everything you'd like to do in as efficiently a way as possible.
I think the thing you have to accept about WitP -- in terms of whether you're contemplating buying it on sale, or whatever -- is that a lot of the game of WitP consists of *learning how to play the game.* I suppose this is true for a lot of games, but it seems to me the crux of the matter with WitP.
In other words, there's really no way to enjoy WitP casually. It's emphatically not a game you can just "sit down and fiddle around with and figure things out" (...well, you can, but that path leads to much frustration, IMO). The huge manual is essential to read, and take notes in -- and then you have to accept that some of it is out of date (superseded by new patches) and it still leaves things unexplained, and so trawling the vast and poorly organized WitP forum is something you will devote many hours to...
In short, if you don't think you want to put in the effort of learning how to play WitP -- and that's honestly a task I'd measure in months if not years -- then you're not really going to be playing WitP.
I look at the Main screen when I load up WitPAE , and its like staring into the void of not knowing where to begin. What happens to me is I forget what Ive learned, then I surprise Myself with a memory of a feature I forgot. WitPAE IMHO is up there with steel panthers as a Must have for wargamers, I have got my moneys worth just planning on playing after 10hours of learning, but becoming to exauted to play, I cant play that's a fact at the moment, but I liken it to ASL where you always forget something.
How do you figure out which troops provide Aviation Support vs Regular Support? Wish there was a way to search by those two factors, when preparing to load troops for transport to a base that requires both of those.
SDR, you would've seen the 'set objective' mentioned in the tutorial you hated so much! ;), at least I know that's where I learned that lil tidbit.
it will say in the middle of the unit screen - AV support, usually 12,24,48 or 72
Another thing to look for (sounds obvious but easy to overlook) is the military branch of the unit. The "Base Force" and "Engineer" units can all look alike, but a USAAF Base Force is far more likely to have aviation support than a generic US Army BF. Similarly, USN BF more likely to have precious naval support and not just generic support.
Quote from: Tuna on August 09, 2015, 10:16:26 AM
How do you figure out which troops provide Aviation Support vs Regular Support? Wish there was a way to search by those two factors, when preparing to load troops for transport to a base that requires both of those.
SDR, you would've seen the 'set objective' mentioned in the tutorial you hated so much! ;), at least I know that's where I learned that lil tidbit.
you mean the tutorial from the non AE version? I think it was maybe 7 years ago when I last tried to play that. I barely remember what I had for dinner last night. Oh well. Guess the troops are coming off the boats yet again and I'll try for a 4th time to actually move them somewhere.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 09, 2015, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: Tuna on August 09, 2015, 10:16:26 AM
How do you figure out which troops provide Aviation Support vs Regular Support? Wish there was a way to search by those two factors, when preparing to load troops for transport to a base that requires both of those.
SDR, you would've seen the 'set objective' mentioned in the tutorial you hated so much! ;), at least I know that's where I learned that lil tidbit.
you mean the tutorial from the non AE version? I think it was maybe 7 years ago when I last tried to play that. I barely remember what I had for dinner last night. Oh well. Guess the troops are coming off the boats yet again and I'll try for a 4th time to actually move them somewhere.
No it was the one where the guy was following the Forum Post from Matrix.. You said you couldn't stand his manner of speaking (guess I can understand that).. If you want I'll look for the post.. basically it's something on the lower right.. under where you do stance or move type..
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 09, 2015, 10:44:12 AM
it will say in the middle of the unit screen - AV support, usually 12,24,48 or 72
Thanks, I'll look again, there is so much on the unit screens, I was probably staring right at it oblivious. I think I was probably focusing on the left where I saw 'support'. If the unit has none, would their be nothing at all? If so, maybe I was looking at units that didn't have it.
Quote from: Tuna on August 09, 2015, 01:16:16 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on August 09, 2015, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: Tuna on August 09, 2015, 10:16:26 AM
How do you figure out which troops provide Aviation Support vs Regular Support? Wish there was a way to search by those two factors, when preparing to load troops for transport to a base that requires both of those.
SDR, you would've seen the 'set objective' mentioned in the tutorial you hated so much! ;), at least I know that's where I learned that lil tidbit.
you mean the tutorial from the non AE version? I think it was maybe 7 years ago when I last tried to play that. I barely remember what I had for dinner last night. Oh well. Guess the troops are coming off the boats yet again and I'll try for a 4th time to actually move them somewhere.
No it was the one where the guy was following the Forum Post from Matrix.. You said you couldn't stand his manner of speaking (guess I can understand that).. If you want I'll look for the post.. basically it's something on the lower right.. under where you do stance or move type..
OK. I've got that part about changing stances. I didn't know you should pre-select an objective though. I just put the wee fellas into strategic move or whatever it's called and loaded them into the boats.
when you view the combat results youll see all the modifiers in play, + for leadership, - for fatigue etc
readiness or preparation is always a negative for your attack if you didnt prep for the destination
Hi Phillippe
I'm late to the party and there's already enough comments in this thread to give you an impression of the game ... and the frustrations that comes with it :)
Anyway,for what's it worth. Here's my thoughts on your questions:
QuoteSo I have two questions.
1) Is WITP - AE the micromanagment nightmare that I suspect it is?
It's not a nightmare if you ask me. Then again; isn't the definition of what micromanagement is a matter of personal preferences?
In WITPAE The production system, logistics/convoy and pilot training can be controlled by the AI if you want to.
Actually, if you play the Allied you don't have to worry about production at all. They get what they get each month. It's static and there's nothing you can do about it.
Quote2) Are there enough smaller scenarios that you can play interesting parts of the Pacific war without writing off your marriage, your job, and half your life?
LOL!
If you're looking for a game (campaign or scenario) that can be played and finished on a Thursday night. WITPAE is not your game.
QuoteI remember wanting to like Uncommon Valor, but being unable to relate to it.
To be honest Phillippe and don't get me wrong. Even though I've never played UV, I don't think WITPAE is a game for you.
I could be wrong. If so, it wouldn't be the first time :)
attilla60.....it seems that a lot of the micro-management complaints posted here involve the logistics/convoy process. In your post you indicate this is can be AI controlled. How specific/detailed is that control? Is it like Distant Worlds where the AI can basically take complete control of various game aspects, i.e. ship design, diplomacy, etc.??
Quote from: Rayfer on August 09, 2015, 08:19:52 PM
attilla60.....it seems that a lot of the micro-management complaints posted here involve the logistics/convoy process. In your post you indicate this is can be AI controlled. How specific/detailed is that control? Is it like Distant Worlds where the AI can basically take complete control of various game aspects, i.e. ship design, diplomacy, etc.??
Convoys can be automated. You just have to indicate the ports and the ships that are part of the auto convoy scheme. But for those who think that precise logistics operations means winning or losing the war, manual is the way to go. Same with Japanese Aircraft production and Pilot Training. These two can be minor nuances but there are people who claim that Japan's only way to win is to micromanage these aspects.
You can't automate many, many things. You need to move around air groups, combat units, construction units, airbase units, HQs, and fleets of course. Not to mention adding pilots to air groups, converting supply into torpedoes, and a bunch of other small things. You will eventually get everything functioning more or less the way you want it and when you do the turns go by much faster.
Like I said, you need a passion for the subject or the first several turns will be too much to swallow.
Quote from: Swatter on August 09, 2015, 10:04:53 PM
You can't automate many, many things. You need to move around air groups, combat units, construction units, airbase units, HQs, and fleets of course. Not to mention adding pilots to air groups, converting supply into torpedoes, and a bunch of other small things. You will eventually get everything functioning more or less the way you want it and when you do the turns go by much faster.
Like I said, you need a passion for the subject or the first several turns will be too much to swallow.
Thanks for yours and other's honest replies. This is just not a game for me, even at half price. The less complicated yet flawed Strategic Command: WW2 Pacific Theater is more along the lines of what my brain can handle
thankyou guys, this thread stirred my interest again, last night I reloaded the game , watched a few youtube vids on it, and I had a whale of a time.
After filling out the order form and closing it several times, I finally bought it Monday evening. Reminds me a lot of Uncommon Valor; they even kept the ships bell sound when you start a scenario!. Looks like they added a lot of stuff to the industrial side since UV, especially on the Japanese side.
Quote from: bobarossa on August 11, 2015, 06:28:41 PM
After filling out the order form and closing it several times, I finally bought it Monday evening. Reminds me a lot of Uncommon Valor; they even kept the ships bell sound when you start a scenario!. Looks like they added a lot of stuff to the industrial side since UV, especially on the Japanese side.
Good man. You won't (and will) regret it. :)
I've never tried a Japanese campaign, and not sure when I ever will. Managing the Allies is job enough, without having to worry about all Japan's resources and manufacturing headaches...
while I agree with atilla60 (the looser) that you CAN set the AI to micromanage alot of Things, I really fail to see why tbh. This is a game centered around logistics and long time planning and if you dont want to do that, then your cutting most of the game out, so you would really be better off with another game.
And send your damn turn you looser. Yes you Atilla60.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi42.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe320%2FAtilla60%2Fnag_zpsvzeorwcy.gif&hash=c8b60f2353e97a6bcc20b17e8c656f9d0ff9d68a)