After reading Team Yankee on holiday, I've started a new campaign on Combat Mission Shock Force.
The particular campaign I've started is the NATO Dutch Campaign...though for "general tactics", I don't think the campaign matters really.
So here's the situation. I've got to 4 recon vehicles and I have 20 minutes before the main force arrives. I have a road going South with an old fort half way down the road and another fort at the end.
I have to use my recon units to recon the first fort, bring in the main force and whilst they're taking care of the old fort, I've to go and recon the main fort.
However - every single time I move my units, they seem to get hit. I've tried hunting, using fast to get behind a building and deploy the recon troops...but nothing works. I just end up losing 4 Fenneks.
So here's my question...HTF do you recon in this game. If I sit the units back with enough height to fully view the terrain, they pick out one or two things. Once those are taken care of, I move again and this time I get stung with a unit that's hiding in the grass.
What do I have to do to see units? How exactly do you effectively recon? I almost always get hit before I see where it's come from...even if I've sat there surveying the battlefield for 10-15 minutes - as soon as I move, there's an unseen unit.
How do you recon properly in this game? 'cos I'm lost
i think smoke is your friend here JD, like you did to me on the big rush
Well if I've got a battery for smoke and I wanted to move troops forward then I would definitely think about using smoke - but my query is more about how you use scouts.
As you don't know where enemy units are, I was hoping that I could "pop" a unit (either in their Fenneks or out) over a hill - kind of hull down - to survey the area and them be able to spot some enemy. Currently, the only way I can find enemy units is by moving my scouts forward - and then it's all over for them.
So - what use are scouts if they don't seem to be scouting? Should you give them an arc? Would that help them to identify hidden units? I really don't know what to do with them because regardless what I try - the only way they find most enemy units is by exposing themselves. (RUDE!)
Currently There's a hill with a two story building on it. I had move a scout unit up there and put the scouts on the roof. I left them there for about 4 or 5 minutes and as they hadn't spotted anything else, I rushed one of the Fenneks to the side of the a building lower in the "valley" to put the spotters in a building and they were taken out by an AT team.
Funny thing was - where the enemy unit was, not only would I have expected my scouts (if they are scouts at all!) to see that AT team, but I would definitely have thought with the AT team firing, that they would then become apparent.
So - from my perspective - they are pretty useless and the only way to find enemy units seems to be exposing yourself to the enemy.
Now - I am totally willing to be told the right way to use them - but my argument is - if I move them, they die - so how do they scout at all??
what about just using the recon troops as dismounts and moving forward on foot.
The reason I left them in the vehicles was two fold...
1. They had access to the heavy weapon on the Fennek if they did spot anything (without them in there, the weapon was useless as there was only the driver)
2. I presumed, being Recon, they would have better optical ability within the vehicle
But I'm no expert on the Fennek or Recon (as it happens - though you may have guessed).
I am far from the expert here, but I have learned through a combination of hard experience and YouTube videos that cruising around in the thin skins anywhere near the enemy leads to BluFor corpses. The other thing that I've deduced...and it shouldn't have proven as hard as it did...is that you have much more time in most CM scenarios than you think. It was hard at first but I got better at dismounting, skulking, and, more important, waiting to spot the bad guys down range. I'm still horribly impatient at times and it uniformly gets me killed. Not saying this is your particular problem, but,a s far as Recon was concerned, it certainly was mine...
It's possible the vehicle design is broken, or that the vehicle just sucks at scouting per se. What are real-life tactics with this particular vehicle? Is it meant more as a mobile support unit for its dismounted troops, than as a scouting platform for mounted troops?
I assume from your description that there is only one 'squad' and a driver in the vehicle, so that the vehicle becomes useless for supporting scouts when the squad is dismounted to scout: I own SF but have never installed it. However, if it only comes with one scout unit and the driver, and assuming it's not meant as a scouting platform, I'd recommend the following two solutions.
1.) Bring more scout infantry. I don't know how many squads can ride in it, but it may be intended to carry several yet only come with one in the game. This sounds like a fixed scenario so if that isn't feasible...
1.2.) ...concentrate scouting assets. Surge any footscouts the game gives you and hold the vehicles back a little for support with their alternate scouting crew inside to man the guns. If the mission doesn't give you any footscouts...
1.3.) ...try denuding half the vehicles of their scouts, and keep the driver-only vehicles in the rear while sending the footmen forward supported by the crewed vehicles. This is admittedly a gamey solution.
2.) Another possibly gamey solution would be to try splitting the scouting squad attached to the vehicle, and sending one detachment ahead while leaving one behind to man the guns in support. Or, for all I know, that's the standard field tactic for this unit after all. (Or for all I know Shock Force doesn't allow the player to split squads, although I know other CM games do.)
Briefly poking around on the internet suggests the Fennik, in scouting kit, is meant to operate like a Kiowa chopper with Longbow optics: it isn't meant to spot infantry in grass or in a fort, it's meant to mask behind a hill and laser tanks which can then be attacked from cover (possibly by other Fenniks.)
One of the true mysteries of the world is how spotting works in Combat Mission. You just never know. Sometimes you can spot the enemy from across the map, other times you cant see the enemy right in front of you. Your best bet is to always assume you are being observed and that you wont see the enemy till he fires at you from 5 meters away :)
Quote from: bboyer66 on August 27, 2015, 11:51:51 AM
One of the true mysteries of the world is how spotting works in Combat Mission. You just never know. Sometimes you can spot the enemy from across the map, other times you cant see the enemy right in front of you. Your best bet is to always assume you are being observed and that you wont see the enemy till he fires at you from 5 meters away :)
Heh...sounds a lot like real life.
My opinion on recon vehicles in CMSF...those are really strategic recon units. Meant to find large concentrations of troops and support units with advanced optics and electronic surveillance. They are not the best tactical scouts. Guys with binos and wide field-of-view thermals are best at getting at infantry in built up areas.
Also check the soft settings of units. It impacts spotting units and spotted units.
JD,
You're doing it right!
The purpose of recon forces is to gain & maintain contact with the enemy. You've already done that, so you're off to a good start and at least now you know a) what your probable line of contact is 2) where you need to apply firepower with your main element.
Now that you've located the enemy start looking for either a bypass or a hole in their lines that you can exploit.
It is not the job of recon troopers to close with and destroy the enemy (that's what grunts are for) but in the meantime you should be employing indirect fires to neutralize or destroy enemy counter recon or high payoff targets.
As you employ recon units, ask yourself these questions...
1) where is the enemy?
2) how can we get around them?
3) where is their weakest link?
Once you answer those questions, you can develop an effective plan for your main body.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 27, 2015, 07:38:34 AM
After reading Team Yankee on holiday, I've started a new campaign on Combat Mission Shock Force.
The particular campaign I've started is the NATO Dutch Campaign...though for "general tactics", I don't think the campaign matters really.
So here's the situation. I've got to 4 recon vehicles and I have 20 minutes before the main force arrives. I have a road going South with an old fort half way down the road and another fort at the end.
I have to use my recon units to recon the first fort, bring in the main force and whilst they're taking care of the old fort, I've to go and recon the main fort.
However - every single time I move my units, they seem to get hit. I've tried hunting, using fast to get behind a building and deploy the recon troops...but nothing works. I just end up losing 4 Fenneks.
So here's my question...HTF do you recon in this game. If I sit the units back with enough height to fully view the terrain, they pick out one or two things. Once those are taken care of, I move again and this time I get stung with a unit that's hiding in the grass.
What do I have to do to see units? How exactly do you effectively recon? I almost always get hit before I see where it's come from...even if I've sat there surveying the battlefield for 10-15 minutes - as soon as I move, there's an unseen unit.
How do you recon properly in this game? 'cos I'm lost
Are you playing WEGO? One thing I learned in Shock Force was to play real time with pauses and do some reversing after spotting anything suspicious. Of course I haven't played Shock force in 7 years, BUT I've also never played WEGO again, so I suspect something about WEGO could help with the scouting thing. Also I may be confusing the virtues of a quick reverse with endless ARMA1-3 sessions where such things do work.
Thanks for the feedback....I'll try and respond as best as I can recall
Cyrano - thanks. I kind of guessed what was the point of the vehicles if they have to get out - and I guessed they'd have all the kit on the vehicles as they were recon. I would say perhaps there is credit in what you say - about getting out and skulking around...but don't forget I said I had taken a unit out the Fennek and put them on top of a building...a building which had a great amount of view across the battlefield...they were on the roof of a building AND the building was on a hill
Jason
1.1. It's a campaign so I've got what I've got...four Fenneks with 4 drivers and 2x4 man recon squads, split across the Fenneks (2 in each)
1.2. I have no extra recon units - just the 2 recon squads
1.3. This is a possible solution
2. There's only 2x4 man recon squads and they are already split into 2 man units and in the Fenneks - so further splitting is not an option
I get you on the Fennek description and perhaps that's it. Perhaps I have to dismount (though as I said above to Cyrano - I already did that and spotted nothing)
RyanE - thanks - but as mentioned, I had already dropped a unit on a hill on the roof of a building and they spotted nothing more than they had done in the Fenneks (an ATGM unit and a MG bunker - and those were spotted in the Fenneks)
Apocolypse31 - I take comfort in the fact I'm doing it right - however - I would not have thought a recon units job is to detect the enemy by attracting (deadly) fire. Like I said - the Fenneks are taken out immediately. That's all well and good, but it dropped my recon level to half in minutes
MengJiao - I am a convert to WEGO. I don't think I could go back to RT.
So - does anyone use their recon units with greater success? If so - how do you do it? Bear in mind I don't have any troops to walk ahead and attract fire. The first 20 minutes of this mission is to recon with the 4 Fenneks and 2 Recon squads split across the mobile units.
I'm certain I've played this mission...must go home and refresh myself as to what in blazes it is that I did...
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 27, 2015, 03:49:52 PM
Apocolypse31 - I take comfort in the fact I'm doing it right - however - I would not have thought a recon units job is to detect the enemy by attracting (deadly) fire. Like I said - the Fenneks are taken out immediately. That's all well and good, but it dropped my recon level to half in minutes
Recon by death is still recon, unfortunately. :P
I despise some of the CM level-designs. Sometimes I feel that the player doesn't get enough breathing room to develop a decent plan. I noticed this mostly in the CMBS scenarios; in some instances your forces are immediately in contact.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 27, 2015, 03:49:52 PM
the Fenneks are taken out immediately. That's all well and good, but it dropped my recon level to half in minutes
I've never preferred mounted recon for offensive operations. Need to get dismounts on the ground to do the leg work. Its tedious, but will pay off more. I have rarely seen a CM scenario large enough for mounted recon - which is traditionally done more as a Rapid/Hasty method to clear large areas in a hurry. In your case, its more stealthy/deliberate.
Mounted versus Dismounted - you need to assess the threat weapons and their associated ranges. A T-72 can fire upwards of 3k range, and a 14.5mm can fire 2k. Most CM maps are too small to give you enough room to employ mounted recon assets.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 27, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
The reason I left them in the vehicles was two fold...
1. They had access to the heavy weapon on the Fennek if they did spot anything (without them in there, the weapon was useless as there was only the driver)
2. I presumed, being Recon, they would have better optical ability within the vehicle
But I'm no expert on the Fennek or Recon (as it happens - though you may have guessed).
Blind fire and destroy every suspected building. Do you have firepower?
You have four vehicles - they are only armed with a 12.7 mm - so not necessarily Armageddon for all they meet and certainly not worth risking your men in.
Use your teams as dismounts (arm them up with the panzerfausts) and scout on foot slowly. You can even dismount the drivers and use them as well which gives you 8 teams to move forward with.
You also have two apache helicopters so call them in on the two forts as they spot as well.
You have over two hours in this scenario which is plenty of time to take things careful. Also - your main force arrives in twenty minutes - you can always wait for them ... just get out the vehicles and move slowly if you do scout.
Quote from: jomni on August 27, 2015, 06:04:44 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 27, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
The reason I left them in the vehicles was two fold...
1. They had access to the heavy weapon on the Fennek if they did spot anything (without them in there, the weapon was useless as there was only the driver)
2. I presumed, being Recon, they would have better optical ability within the vehicle
But I'm no expert on the Fennek or Recon (as it happens - though you may have guessed).
Blind fire and destroy every suspected building. Do you have firepower?
Take off and nuke it from above...it's the only way to be sure
Remember my Company commander saying " We know we will have made contact with the enemy when the Bradleys start blowing up"
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 27, 2015, 03:49:52 PM
Thanks for the feedback....I'll try and respond as best as I can recall
Cyrano - thanks. I kind of guessed what was the point of the vehicles if they have to get out - and I guessed they'd have all the kit on the vehicles as they were recon. I would say perhaps there is credit in what you say - about getting out and skulking around...but don't forget I said I had taken a unit out the Fennek and put them on top of a building...a building which had a great amount of view across the battlefield...they were on the roof of a building AND the building was on a hill
As mentioned above, recon vehicles - within the scope of the size of firefights depicted in this game aren't really for scouting, they're taxis designed to quickly move scout troops to concealed position from which to start a dismounted advance. Maybe, in the right situation, they provide a bit of long range fire support. As Apoc said, it isn't their job to duke it out, they're there to find the enemy and keep eyes on.
To that end, stay
low as much as possible. In CMSF in particular but most CM games in general being on top of a building is not a good place to be. If you're going to try and spot from inside a building go to the floor below the roof and keep your guys prone. Leave them there for a few minutes/turns, and they
will start spotting. While your scouts are creeping around, keep the vehicles well back and unspotted. If you don't, they're grease. If you put your scouts on top of a building, and particularly if they aren't hiding, you're going to take losses.
When you move your scout teams, don't move them over high ground, stick to the lowest terrain possible, move them in short bounds, and always end the move with them going hidden. Take your time, and split the teams up so that they bound past each other but stay within fire support range. Don't move too far each time but move them fast if in open terrain, ending with a hide command. Hunt works better in forest or built-up terrain.
Flow like water. Very
slow water.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 27, 2015, 03:49:52 PM
So - does anyone use their recon units with greater success? If so - how do you do it? Bear in mind I don't have any troops to walk ahead and attract fire. The first 20 minutes of this mission is to recon with the 4 Fenneks and 2 Recon squads split across the mobile units.
I can't emphasize this enough: go slowly. You have 20 turns to do this before you have reinforcements show up. Creep. Never move both scout teams at the same time and never move both into an exposed position at the same time. Your smoke is limited, but don't hesitate to use it to screen a particularly dangerous move if need be.
Never expose the vehicles. Think about it - the battlefield here is only a couple of klicks long and wide. You aren't doing operational recon here, this is up-close-and-personal tactical stuff. A Fennec with great optics sitting hull down at 5000 m or more is a great asset for observing enemy movement. That's not the situation in most CM scenarios, the time for that sort of recon has passed. The vehicles are very vulnerable at these ranges. RPGs will mess up a Fennec or other light recon vehicle at the less than 1K engagement ranges we're dealing with here. So, what you actually have are mobile VP producers for the opfor. Hide them!
Yep, it's all about slow-walking in this one.
This might, in fact, have been the scenario that finally had me shrieking at my CM:SF install to the effect: "I thought you wanted me to DO something, for heaven's sake..."
Thanks all.
Jomni - I did not have any arty until 20 minutes in - when those 155 bad boys showed up, I took some buildings out in the fort...just in case. I do have a couple of Apache's which I used to take out the bunker I found.
Zulu1966 - the problem I have there is moving slowly is incredibly taxing on the troops and tires them out very, very quickly. Loading them with PFs just increases their fatigue
mickeck - best suggestion so far - however, no TacNukes available at present
bboyer66 - scary
panzerde - great advice and very much along with what other people suggest (get out move, on foot, scenario being unsuitable for vehicles) - I guess although the Fenneks may have great optics suitable for scouting, the crew inside maybe aren't going to hear any movement or opfor orders in a moving Fennek
Cyrano - exactly. My problem is always that also - lets get moving...what's with the slow crawl.
Anyway - update. I moved a couple of units across to the left of the map (near the building on the hill). One I left in the Fennek. They spotted a bunker and took it out (Apache and MG). The other unit up there I put on a roof and then after a while started hunting forward...they came across nothing.
The other two I moved across the right side of the map dismounted. Sure enough, they did come under fire at various locations. They were hunting though so went to ground and suppressed. I was able to call in the Apache's for a couple of sections.
My main force then came into play. They came across some wee nasties, but were able to deal with them. I did lose an APC which was sent forward to help a recon unit pinned by a rifle squad. I send it forward, fired smoke, and used Assault to get the troops into a building ready for the smoke to clear and destroy the enemy. I thought that had been taken care of when another APC came under fire from a building to the left. I rather stupidly moved the APC that had just dropped off the troops to the left, turning my back on (what I thought was the destroyed) rifle squad - AYG straight in the arse.
But so far so good. Though as I said - the recon teams are constantly on pause seemingly (automatically) because they are tired now from hunting forward a few hundred metres.
I think CM units can take a while to spot and resolve what they have spotted - it might require getting them into a position with overwatch / line of sight and then leaving them alone for a turn or two to do some spotting. Their ability to spot improves over time "Over time the unit may be further identified and will display a specific floating icon."
Been a while since I've played Shock Force, but I'm loving Black Sea.
smith
Good tactical recon is tiring, so that makes sense. O0
Previous comments support what I was thinking along the lines of (1) this type of mission is NOT the role of the Fennik; and so (2) the mission may have been mis-designed by including Fens as expensive VP generating battle taxis. More likely their in-game role in CMSF is to be ambushed during a convoy run. ;)
The report that one recce squad already divides between two Fens makes my head hurt, and lends credence to my suspicions. :buck2:
Most designers don't know how to use Fennik-like vehicles. They are built for longer range recon. I used to build those missions for myself. I used huge maps with a small recon element that used the "detect unit" victory condition. I then loaded up an enemy recon screen that was supposed to stop them. I used a high level HQ unit that was in a building. If the recon unit detected and IDed the HQ, they basically won. There are a huge variety of ways to do this type of mission.
Sometimes I would set it up that a follow on heavy recon unit was on call if the initial recon unit got into trouble. But that becomes a little too complex for my skill set. I did give the recon unit gobs of air support and artillery to use if they got in trouble.
A big factor in designing these scenarios is setting initial intel level as a guide for the units and player. In CMBS, I also use a lot of drones for recon.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 28, 2015, 01:08:26 AM
Thanks all.
Jomni - I did not have any arty until 20 minutes in - when those 155 bad boys showed up, I took some buildings out in the fort...just in case. I do have a couple of Apache's which I used to take out the bunker I found.
Zulu1966 - the problem I have there is moving slowly is incredibly taxing on the troops and tires them out very, very quickly. Loading them with PFs just increases their fatigue
mickeck - best suggestion so far - however, no TacNukes available at present
bboyer66 - scary
panzerde - great advice and very much along with what other people suggest (get out move, on foot, scenario being unsuitable for vehicles) - I guess although the Fenneks may have great optics suitable for scouting, the crew inside maybe aren't going to hear any movement or opfor orders in a moving Fennek
Cyrano - exactly. My problem is always that also - lets get moving...what's with the slow crawl.
Anyway - update. I moved a couple of units across to the left of the map (near the building on the hill). One I left in the Fennek. They spotted a bunker and took it out (Apache and MG). The other unit up there I put on a roof and then after a while started hunting forward...they came across nothing.
The other two I moved across the right side of the map dismounted. Sure enough, they did come under fire at various locations. They were hunting though so went to ground and suppressed. I was able to call in the Apache's for a couple of sections.
My main force then came into play. They came across some wee nasties, but were able to deal with them. I did lose an APC which was sent forward to help a recon unit pinned by a rifle squad. I send it forward, fired smoke, and used Assault to get the troops into a building ready for the smoke to clear and destroy the enemy. I thought that had been taken care of when another APC came under fire from a building to the left. I rather stupidly moved the APC that had just dropped off the troops to the left, turning my back on (what I thought was the destroyed) rifle squad - AYG straight in the arse.
But so far so good. Though as I said - the recon teams are constantly on pause seemingly (automatically) because they are tired now from hunting forward a few hundred metres.
I presume you are using the hunt command judge ? . Yes I think the fatigue it causes is overdone. Generally I use it sparingly. Walk command is useful for moving slowly without fatigue. I know that leads to issues with the tac AI but I generally find it does an OK job if you start getting shot at.
Hello Judge Dred,
I too just started the Dutch campaign and have finished the first mission.
There are approaches that are covered and ways to sneak into position.
I lost one vehicle and a few scouts but was able to move recon to good locations and call in artillery.
In CMSF you have get in close to see some trenches and gullies. From a high view they are not apparent.
Moving your troops using the slow command will only tire them as that mode simulates crawling.
Give them a small fire arc so they will not fire and give their location away. Then use the move command until you are very close and finish with the slow order.
I can give you more information but I am hesitant as I do not want to spoil the scenario for you.