http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sheriff-asks-fbi-us-justice-department-to-investigate-spring-valley-incident/ar-BBmt9jX?ocid=spartandhp
Thoughts?
Leon Lott doesn't dick around. If he called the Feds in to investigate, there's a reason. I used to live in Richland County, and he was a no-nonsense, no-politics kind of guy. He just wanted to do his job, and keep people safe. He started up a county-wide undercover anti-shoplifting program over Thanksgiving weekends that cut theft over that weekend about 60-70% over the course of 3-4 years or so.
Good for him. That's quite impressive.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 27, 2015, 04:41:18 PM
Leon Lott doesn't dick around. If he called the Feds in to investigate, there's a reason. I used to live in Richland County, and he was a no-nonsense, no-politics kind of guy. He just wanted to do his job, and keep people safe. He started up a county-wide undercover anti-shoplifting program over Thanksgiving weekends that cut theft over that weekend about 60-70% over the course of 3-4 years or so.
I'm not sure. From the video, it looks brutal, but I don't see anything to indicate outside investigators would be needed. It is a case of potential improper use of force that didn't even require hospitalization. Why would outside investigators be needed (other than for political purposes)? At worst, we are looking at a suspension or termination. I don't think any criminal charges are realistically possible.
What I would like to see the media discuss (after 2 years of heightened scrutiny of police) is exactly what a person's rights and responsibilities are when involved with the police. In this case, the student was actively resisting arrest. Citizens have a legal obligation to follow lawful police commands. If a person physically resists arrest, the officer is trained to use a level of force greater than is being used by the resistor. Once a person is placed under arrest, you will be arrested one way or another and the police will not ask nicely (nor should they).
Its hard to say what is exactly going on in the video. I would imagine some sort of arm bar could have removed the student from her chair, but that would have been brutal also. When a person resists arrest, there will be no happy ending. The police will kick your butt. I would agree that the violence showed could be excessive, but the media and others are going way overboard here.
Two things.
(1) I see no reason for and don't understand why the feds need to be involved so soon. The cop answers to his department, if the department's response is deemed insufficient then the Feds could move in as has happened before.
(2) The video....I see another badge-heavy bully using excessive force that just happens to be caught on camera. I'm sure this is not going to be a popular viewpoint, but a badge doesn't give you the right to kick ass and take names unless the circumstances demand it, which clearly was not the case here. The "if they did what the cop said" argument is old and tired, considering the numerous videos online where they were doing exactly what the officer said but still ended up being brutalized. I come from long lines of peace officers and raised my children to respect the law, but I've also personally known dirty cops, so wearing the badge is never a "once size fits all" situation.
The bottom line? The police will win back the public's respect when they start policing themselves better, which Lott seems to be attempting. Cops decry the code of silence which exists in many neighborhoods, but the same officers are quick to close ranks when one of their own crosses the line. "Snitches get stiches" isn't just a ghetto slogan, they simply call it something different in blue.
To your point #1, the department called in the feds, not someone else
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 27, 2015, 07:59:29 PM
To your point #1, the department called in the feds, not someone else
I understood that. I could have made that more clear in my response. Thanks for the clarification, BB.
I suppose he called in the feds because he wanted the issue to remain apolitical.
The office of sheriff is probably elected. This passes all responsibility out of his (potentially) political hands.
I'm still quite impressed with his impact on shoplifting. That's very cool.
No prob. I figured you knew, but just making sure. Like I said, he was out sheriff when we lived down there, and one of his dispatchers was one of my best friends in the SCARNG. He's not one to play politics. He just wants to get shit done
LB: he is elected
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 27, 2015, 08:04:08 PM
No prob. I figured you knew, but just making sure. Like I said, he was out sheriff when we lived down there, and one of his dispatchers was one of my best friends in the SCARNG. He's not one to play politics. He just wants to get shit done
LB: he is elected
Love to see more like him then. Appreciate your sharing your personal knowledge, BB. We have a good sheriff here in Oklahoma County as well. Of course, I spent the six years prior in Maricopa County, Arizona where the only Dem I voted for was whoever ran against Sheriff Arpaio.
Here's a note from someone on FB with a little more local intel
QuoteFellow students in the class that were interviewed said "The teacher asked the girl to get off her phone, she refused, she was told to leave the class and refused, school administrators asked her to leave the class because she was on her phone and she continued to refuse, the School Resource Officer asked her to leave the room and she still refused, and it resulted in her and one other student being physically removed from class.
Other students reported " He asked her nicely to get up, over and over he did nothing wrong. They asked her to get up but she wanted to show off, To some it looks bad but she wanted to prove she was bad."
The Teacher was asked if he felt bad for what happened to her? his reply: "She should have cooperated."
CNN is reporting Sheriff Lott as saying the student struck the officer after he put his hands on her to get her out of her chair. The Sheriff is still considering what action to take against the officer, in part because of the "troubled history" of the officer in question and the fact that the incident still escalated beyond reasonable force in the eyes of Lott. I stand by my stated opinion about the increased incidents of police brutality and overreaction which have come to our attention because everyone has a camera now, but striking a cop in any fashion is crossing the line and volunteering to get your ass kicked.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 27, 2015, 08:16:00 PM
Here's a note from someone on FB with a little more local intel
QuoteFellow students in the class that were interviewed said "The teacher asked the girl to get off her phone, she refused, she was told to leave the class and refused, school administrators asked her to leave the class because she was on her phone and she continued to refuse, the School Resource Officer asked her to leave the room and she still refused, and it resulted in her and one other student being physically removed from class.
Other students reported " He asked her nicely to get up, over and over he did nothing wrong. They asked her to get up but she wanted to show off, To some it looks bad but she wanted to prove she was bad."
The Teacher was asked if he felt bad for what happened to her? his reply: "She should have cooperated."
How difficult is it to be nice these days? Someone asks you to get off your phone in class - get off!
Officer Friendly comes in and asks you to leave the room - leave the room!
This isn't rocket science.
I don't think Officer Friendly was on duty that day.......Officer Steroids perhaps, but I agree that compliance is generally the best policy.
Well at least he didn't shoot her. ::)
Quote from: mirth on October 27, 2015, 09:11:55 PM
Well at least he didn't shoot her. ::)
There is that.......
Its obvious there was more to the story than the short video showed. I think we should reserve judgement a little longer, perhaps we will see a clearer video later on or hear confirmed eye witness testimony.
+1
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 27, 2015, 07:52:11 PM
The "if they did what the cop said" argument is old and tired, considering the numerous videos online where they were doing exactly what the officer said but still ended up being brutalized.
Maybe it's just me because I haven't watched all of the videos, but in every one I have seen no one is doing what the cop asks them to do.
It looks to me like it's just another incident that is being blown out of proportion.
Quote from: bbmike on October 28, 2015, 05:37:53 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 27, 2015, 07:52:11 PM
The "if they did what the cop said" argument is old and tired, considering the numerous videos online where they were doing exactly what the officer said but still ended up being brutalized.
Maybe it's just me because I haven't watched all of the videos, but in every one I have seen no one is doing what the cop asks them to do.
I really don't want to come off as anti-cop here, because I'm far from it. I simply expect proportional force and reasonably good judgement from those we entrust with such authority. As for the videos, frankly I could post 15 or 20 which are far worse than this incident, including cops over-reacting to people videotaping them (which the Supreme Court has ruled to be legal).
Breaking news reports the Sheriff is terminating the officer for using excessive force. The officer has prior complaints, including a combat vet who sued after having an entire can of pepper spray used on him because he was playing his car radio too loudly.
She allegedly hit him in the face, when he approached her, after she refused to leave the classroom and was verbally disrespectful to the teacher and officer.
If you're dumb enough to take a swing at a cop, you're going to end up in a world of hurt.
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 28, 2015, 09:52:51 AMThe officer has prior complaints, including a combat vet who sued after having an entire can of pepper spray used on him because he was playing his car radio too loudly.
Yep. That'll do it. Unfortunately, some people will see this as vindication of the victim's behavior instead of a pattern of trouble with the officer.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 28, 2015, 10:15:57 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 28, 2015, 09:52:51 AMThe officer has prior complaints, including a combat vet who sued after having an entire can of pepper spray used on him because he was playing his car radio too loudly.
Yep. That'll do it. Unfortunately, some people will see this as vindication of the victim's behavior instead of a pattern of trouble with the officer.
Agreed.
+1
I do see a lot of over-reacting cops in these videos.
I'm not seeing mainstream opinion vindicating the student's behavior. Sure, the wackos will see whatever they want, so why bother with them. As stated before, I think the biggest problem is the average young person not knowing what their rights and responsibilities are (compounded by a cultural disrespect/hatred for police in the case of African Americans). The second biggest problem is that people have unrealistic expectations of police officers (especially in the case of white America). Most people don't realize how freaking terrible that job can be and how much it can bring you down. I have seen it change people completely.
For example, one of the worst memories of my life was a day when my neighbor called me for help because her boyfriend was beating the living crap out of her. I went over to their residence and there was blood everywhere, smeared over the walls, pooled on the carpet, all over both individuals. I broke things up with calm and compassion (was a trusted mediator). Of course I called the police right away. It was an event I would care to forget and never have to revisit. For police officers, stuff like this is just 9 am, or whatever. Both people were ok after brief visits to the hospital, btw.
I think we need to realize, as a society that police work is tough and officers are human beings just like everyone else. They don't have super powers to filter out all the human sewage they deal with on a daily basis. They are human beings and will react and be affected over time by what they experience. This isn't to justify bad behavior, but simply to point out that we can all have bad days. A bad day for a police officer could be a split second lapse of judgement that could end their career or end their freedom (or these days end up in front of a digital lynch mob and a media all to willing to profit off of it).
I think in this case, the officer should have been fired, but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I gave him the benefit of the doubt because the media has no idea that proper use of force can include jarring violence. I think more media scrutiny is a good thing and people should take out their phones (and stay the hell out of the way) when they see an altercation develop. What we also need is intelligent media analysis of individual cases, not lazy narrative driven journalism.
some more info on the officer
QuoteThe officer in the classroom video, Richland County Senior Deputy Ben Fields, was fired Wednesday and is now the subject of a federal civil rights investigation. His history shows he has been particularly hard to reach. Before tipping the desk, he already was the subject of excessive force complaints outside of school settings. In school, students reportedly referred to him as "Officer Slam." He's also a defendant in a federal lawsuit accusing him of targeting African-American students with false allegations of gang membership that is set for trial in January.
Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article41734509.html
To be fair, complaints are lodged against police all the time and the vast majority of them never pan out. This goes back to my earlier point that people need to have a better understanding of how police operate. As I said, police are trained to go to a level of force greater than the perpetrator. This is why people think the police are using excessive force, because in essence they are. Obeying lawful police commands is the surest way to avoid an officer kicking you butt. They aren't going to fight an even battle against someone resisting arrest, they are going to inflict pain until you surrender. It sounds harsh, but if you really think about it, its the only way to handle violent suspects.
What I hate about this story is that it wasn't worthy of national focus to begin with. Once he was fired, there was nothing left to say. That's how shallow the story was.
Quote from: Swatter on October 29, 2015, 04:31:45 PM
What I hate about this story is that it wasn't worthy of national focus to begin with. Once he was fired, there was nothing left to say. That's how shallow the story was.
The national focus was there already and incidents like this are now going to receive more attention than they might have a year or two ago.
Whether or not this one incident was excessive, it's fair to debate police use of force and also the placement and role of police officers in public schools.
That said, I completely agree with you about how police are trained and can be expected to respond to resistance or opposition. Like I posted before, if that girl struck the officer then I am not surprised at all by the response. Was it warranted or excessive? Those questions are part of the larger debate we, as a society, are now having.
Certainly the video didn't look good and the officer's own history doesn't help the assertion that his response was not excessive.
Quote from: mirth on October 29, 2015, 05:17:06 PM
Quote from: Swatter on October 29, 2015, 04:31:45 PM
What I hate about this story is that it wasn't worthy of national focus to begin with. Once he was fired, there was nothing left to say. That's how shallow the story was.
The national focus was there already and incidents like this are now going to receive more attention than they might have a year or two ago.
Whether or not this one incident was excessive, it's fair to debate police use of force and also the placement and role of police officers in public schools.
That said, I completely agree with you about how police are trained and can be expected to respond to resistance or opposition. Like I posted before, if that girl struck the officer then I am not surprised at all by the response. Was it warranted or excessive? Those questions are part of the larger debate we, as a society, are now having.
Certainly the video didn't look good and the officer's own history doesn't help the assertion that his response was not excessive.
What Mirth said.
Camera's vindicate more police incidents than not by a wide margin. So false complaints tend to disappear when the video evidence supports the officer. All this is very good. But the other shoe to drop is that police brutality, bad shootings and the bad apples are being exposed. This incident, like the girl at the pool party in Dallas, was fairly minor but made major by the gross overreaction of a responding officer and a camera being nearby. Neither had to happen. When you give a man a badge, a gun and the amount of authority a policeman has, integrity and sound judgement is everything.
The other extreme is this http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/13/1431428/-Bloody-strapped-to-chair-video-shows-police-tasering-Matthew-Ajibade-in-the-testicles-before-death (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/13/1431428/-Bloody-strapped-to-chair-video-shows-police-tasering-Matthew-Ajibade-in-the-testicles-before-death)
It's not pretty and it's not fit for small eyes or the workplace. But it's an example of things that happen that shouldn't by those we trust most.
That is just evil.
99% of police officers are honest, hard working people trying to help. The problem is that the other 1% are violent douchebags who think a badge and a gun gives them a right to do whatever the Hell they want. The BIGGER problem is that far too often absolutely nothing is done to remove the badge and the gun from the 1%. That's what has to change. Enough of the 'blue wall, no rats' nonsense that just leads to more incidents from the 1% that paint all cops with a bad brush.
Meh. I say we live in the society activists and the media want seemingly. Let's just disband all law enforcement and security apparatuses around the nation and for good measure the entire globe. I'm sure peace and harmony will reign supreme.
Meh. I say we give up and nuke the whole damn planet. The Fallout games make that look pretty cool.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/606109728620412928/UG2pkAaB.jpg)
I've always wondered what Nuka Cola tastes like.
Quote from: Bison on October 30, 2015, 07:25:47 AM
I've always wondered what Nuka Cola tastes like.
It's very fissy.
Quote from: Bison on October 30, 2015, 07:17:23 AM
Meh. I say we live in the society activists and the media want seemingly. Let's just disband all law enforcement and security apparatuses around the nation and for good measure the entire globe. I'm sure peace and harmony will reign supreme.
Right, because simply cleaning up the bad apples from law enforcement is too much of a reach......
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 30, 2015, 09:21:43 AM
Quote from: Bison on October 30, 2015, 07:17:23 AM
Meh. I say we live in the society activists and the media want seemingly. Let's just disband all law enforcement and security apparatuses around the nation and for good measure the entire globe. I'm sure peace and harmony will reign supreme.
Right, because simply cleaning up the bad apples from law enforcement is too much of a reach......
I was referring to the rhetoric that is being thrown about regarding police action in general and the overall resulting anti-police sentiments in media coverage. I'm talking about the activist rhetoric calling for the death of cops and active resistance to them. The implications for example that any police action against a minority is race driven and has nothing to do with enforcement of law. The result is every cop and sheriff is tainted. They are all considered bad apples just looking for the right opportunity to abuse their power. I don't believe that and I also think the inflammatory rhetoric incites violence and unnecessary confrontation. Nothing that happened in this situation needed to happen.
The rhetoric also results in every police action to be elevated to a national story of police brutality to be judged as such before any of the facts are known. We as a nation apparently no longer believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty particularly when applied to law enforcement officers. The clock boy is a perfect example. Oh man was that an inequality! #STANDWITHCLOCKBOY Michael Brown is an angel whose actions of beating a shop owner and robbing a store, before charging the police officer and grabbing for his weapon are irrelevant. It was the racist police state's fault for the confrontation. I'd say that most law enforcement are doing something that they love and believe it to be a service to society. And yes there are some bad apples. Bad apples exist. They always have and always will. And yes they should be plucked and removed from those positions of authority when they are found, but we are to the point that I think police will start to stop enforcement of laws because they don't want to deal with the rhetoric that follows from the media and activist rush to judgement.
If this deputy had prior ethical violations, why wasn't he thrown out of his job at that time? If he is, based on past occurrences, a bad law enforcement officer, he should have been removed sooner. That isn't the issue. Good riddance to him.
Agreed.
Waging war on law and order and those who enforce it is wrong on every level. Inflammatory rhetoric more often than not has little to do reality. Getting rid of cops who abuse their authority goes a long way towards solving the issue and restoring community confidence in our police. But the issues do exist.
Here in OKC, an officer was just fired and charged with assault and battery when school security footage showed him striking a student repeatedly......after stopping the student for not having a hall pass. There is no sound, so the student may have smarted off at him but there was nothing physical until the cop struck him in the face two or three times. Another incident in nearby Moore involves a special needs student with a bruise in the shape of a hand mark after the student (a 14 year old with the mentality of maybe someone 7) says he was struck by the school resource officer, who did not file a report. It's being investigated. And this is just local news pulled from the last week.
Unfortunately, I think there are a lot more bad cops than the theoretical "1%" that gets thrown out, but I still believe 95% of law enforcement are good people trying to do a difficult job. If all of this focus on badge-heavy cops does anything positive, maybe it will be that departments finally clean out their ranks of the people who shouldn't be there. Afterwards, when they go into a community meeting to combat the "Snitches get stitches" mentality, they will have set the standard within their own ranks.
It's wrong to deflect from the behavior of bad LEOs by saying most are good. Not that it isn't accurate, but it's like saying that most citizens are law abiding so why do we focus on the few bad apples? There's a reason why we focus on the bad apples.
Yeah those types of stories are just a slug to the gut.
Quote from: mirth on October 30, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
It's wrong to deflect from the behavior of bad LEOs by saying most are good. Not that it isn't accurate, but it's like saying that most citizens are law abiding so why do we focus on the few bad apples? There's a reason why we focus on the bad apples.
Mirth, sometimes you pull stuff from my mind and express it far better than I can. Scary, but I love ya.
Quote from: mirth on October 30, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
It's wrong to deflect from the behavior of bad LEOs by saying most are good. Not that it isn't accurate, but it's like saying that most citizens are law abiding so why do we focus on the few bad apples? There's a reason why we focus on the bad apples.
I don't think it's a deflection. Part of the problem is we do focus so much attention through the media on the bad. There is almost never any coverage of the good that is done. Sex, drugs, and violence sells. Good deeds don't. We all want to live in a world of the good deeds, but rather than give it glamorous coverage we focus on the ills of society. And we reap what we sow in that regard.
But being on the radar of a bad cop is an awful place to be. At the risk of repeating myself, I've known a retired Chicago detective who admitted to his squad planting drugs on people. I've known a woman who had an affair with a ATF agent who stalked her. My own son got into some mischief at 14 with a cops kid and the cop came after my family. That's reality. I'd love to see stories every day of cops pulling people out of burning cars, because I know damn well that happens. But the bad cops don't deserve that same cover. The bad cops need to be exposed, and the best thing any department can do for their good cops is not make them serve beside (and cover for) dangerous, corrupt co-workers!
Quote from: Bison on October 30, 2015, 11:51:06 AM
Quote from: mirth on October 30, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
It's wrong to deflect from the behavior of bad LEOs by saying most are good. Not that it isn't accurate, but it's like saying that most citizens are law abiding so why do we focus on the few bad apples? There's a reason why we focus on the bad apples.
I don't think it's a deflection. Part of the problem is we do focus so much attention through the media on the bad. There is almost never any coverage of the good that is done. Sex, drugs, and violence sells. Good deeds don't. We all want to live in a world of the good deeds, but rather than give it glamorous coverage we focus on the ills of society. And we reap what we sow in that regard.
Deflection may have been a poor word choice on my part.
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 30, 2015, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: mirth on October 30, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
It's wrong to deflect from the behavior of bad LEOs by saying most are good. Not that it isn't accurate, but it's like saying that most citizens are law abiding so why do we focus on the few bad apples? There's a reason why we focus on the bad apples.
Mirth, sometimes you pull stuff from my mind and express it far better than I can. Scary, but I love ya.
If you think like I do, you probably should be scared :P
Quote from: mirth on October 30, 2015, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 30, 2015, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: mirth on October 30, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
It's wrong to deflect from the behavior of bad LEOs by saying most are good. Not that it isn't accurate, but it's like saying that most citizens are law abiding so why do we focus on the few bad apples? There's a reason why we focus on the bad apples.
Mirth, sometimes you pull stuff from my mind and express it far better than I can. Scary, but I love ya.
If you think like I do, you probably should be scared :P
I frighten myself shaving every morning when I see my reflection O0
Humans are imperfect. Always have been. Always will be.
^ It's why we eventually create Cylons 8)
Eventually...yeah that's right. We eventually create them...
About a year ago I had the opportunity to spend some time on a training sim used by cops et al.
Since I went through that I have a great deal more sympathy for how quickly these things can go crazy and how difficult it is in the "heat of the moment" so to speak to make a quick decision.
There are far more good cops and they have my support in these situations. The exceptions will get figured out in time.
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 30, 2015, 12:06:29 PM
^ It's why we eventually create Cylons 8)
Quote from: mirth on October 30, 2015, 12:13:00 PM
Eventually...yeah that's right. We eventually create them...
This has all happened before...
QuoteHundreds of students at Spring Valley High School in Columbia, S.C. staged a brief walkout on Friday in support of the school resource officer and football coach who was fired earlier this week after video emerged of him dragging a female student out of her desk and slamming her onto the ground.
The students donned t-shirts reading "Free Fields" and "#BringBackFields" in support of the officer, Ben Fields.
source: http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/30/students-stage-walkout-in-support-of-deputy-fired-over-viral-video/
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 30, 2015, 11:39:52 AM
Agreed.
Waging war on law and order and those who enforce it is wrong on every level. Inflammatory rhetoric more often than not has little to do reality. Getting rid of cops who abuse their authority goes a long way towards solving the issue and restoring community confidence in our police. But the issues do exist.
Here in OKC, an officer was just fired and charged with assault and battery when school security footage showed him striking a student repeatedly......after stopping the student for not having a hall pass. There is no sound, so the student may have smarted off at him but there was nothing physical until the cop struck him in the face two or three times. Another incident in nearby Moore involves a special needs student with a bruise in the shape of a hand mark after the student (a 14 year old with the mentality of maybe someone 7) says he was struck by the school resource officer, who did not file a report. It's being investigated. And this is just local news pulled from the last week.
Unfortunately, I think there are a lot more bad cops than the theoretical "1%" that gets thrown out, but I still believe 95% of law enforcement are good people trying to do a difficult job. If all of this focus on badge-heavy cops does anything positive, maybe it will be that departments finally clean out their ranks of the people who shouldn't be there. Afterwards, when they go into a community meeting to combat the "Snitches get stitches" mentality, they will have set the standard within their own ranks.
A couple of things:
The police are scapegoats for wider societal problems and this is where I think your argument falls short. Even if we had perfect police forces, they would still be arresting much higher rates of minorities in the inner cities (because they are the ones committing crime). This is what all this institutional racism stuff is about. The police are the bad guys for enforcing the will of society as a whole. Having less bad cops will help, but the wider problems will still exist and cops will continue to get a bad wrap for being a bunch of racists.
On the other hand, I think your right, it is more than 1%. I think the hiring process does a good job of keeping the more dangerous elements of society out of our police forces, but the job (as I said before) wears people down and I think makes them more violent in the long run. Human beings just can't mentally ignore the shit police have to deal with day in and day out. They just can't wash all the grim off. I think we are seeing what happens to people who have to endure violence as a daily part of the job description. They become violent themselves.
We're probably venturing into territory where some good old fashioned statistics would help. I have no doubt that stressful jobs stress people and that some don't do well in those situations and others can't take it.
But before we start painting too broad a stroke we probably ought to start digging into numbers to get a handle on what really is or is not happening.
Quote from: Swatter on October 30, 2015, 11:22:30 PM
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 30, 2015, 11:39:52 AM
Agreed.
Waging war on law and order and those who enforce it is wrong on every level. Inflammatory rhetoric more often than not has little to do reality. Getting rid of cops who abuse their authority goes a long way towards solving the issue and restoring community confidence in our police. But the issues do exist.
Here in OKC, an officer was just fired and charged with assault and battery when school security footage showed him striking a student repeatedly......after stopping the student for not having a hall pass. There is no sound, so the student may have smarted off at him but there was nothing physical until the cop struck him in the face two or three times. Another incident in nearby Moore involves a special needs student with a bruise in the shape of a hand mark after the student (a 14 year old with the mentality of maybe someone 7) says he was struck by the school resource officer, who did not file a report. It's being investigated. And this is just local news pulled from the last week.
Unfortunately, I think there are a lot more bad cops than the theoretical "1%" that gets thrown out, but I still believe 95% of law enforcement are good people trying to do a difficult job. If all of this focus on badge-heavy cops does anything positive, maybe it will be that departments finally clean out their ranks of the people who shouldn't be there. Afterwards, when they go into a community meeting to combat the "Snitches get stitches" mentality, they will have set the standard within their own ranks.
A couple of things:
The police are scapegoats for wider societal problems and this is where I think your argument falls short. Even if we had perfect police forces, they would still be arresting much higher rates of minorities in the inner cities (because they are the ones committing crime). This is what all this institutional racism stuff is about. The police are the bad guys for enforcing the will of society as a whole. Having less bad cops will help, but the wider problems will still exist and cops will continue to get a bad wrap for being a bunch of racists.
On the other hand, I think your right, it is more than 1%. I think the hiring process does a good job of keeping the more dangerous elements of society out of our police forces, but the job (as I said before) wears people down and I think makes them more violent in the long run. Human beings just can't mentally ignore the shit police have to deal with day in and day out. They just can't wash all the grim off. I think we are seeing what happens to people who have to endure violence as a daily part of the job description. They become violent themselves.
I agree with much of your second point, with the added caveat that our massive increase in LE since 9/11 has certainly led to standards slipping across the board. It's simple math, prior to 9/11 we already didn't have enough qualified bodies to fill police slots across the country. And I agree the job wears you down. But I don't think we can ignore the militarization of our police departments as part of the aggression issue equation. Lots of old time cops look at the departments today and say they don't recognize what passes as "police work" anymore.
To your first point, I don't think I've address institutionalized racism at all in my posts. I'm simply talking about the levels of unneccessary violence we are seeing in police/civilian interactions, and at that, I've barely scratched the surface. The few videos that make it to mainstream viewing represent maybe a percentage of what you can find online at any given time. But again to racism, I don't believe police are any more biased than the population they serve, good or bad. Crime levels are higher in minority neighborhoods and minorities commit more crimes per capita than non-minorities. That's simply fact and I'll leave it to sociologists to debate the cause and effect.
Quote from: Bison on October 30, 2015, 10:12:26 AM
I was referring to the rhetoric that is being thrown about regarding police action in general and the overall resulting anti-police sentiments in media coverage. I'm talking about the activist rhetoric calling for the death of cops and active resistance to them. The implications for example that any police action against a minority is race driven and has nothing to do with enforcement of law. The result is every cop and sheriff is tainted. They are all considered bad apples just looking for the right opportunity to abuse their power. I don't believe that and I also think the inflammatory rhetoric incites violence and unnecessary confrontation. Nothing that happened in this situation needed to happen.
Well, if this doesn't frost your Wheaties, I don't know what will. Iran paying expenses for 20 American leftists to participate in an anti-American police brutality seminar. Two weeks even. How I would love to see the US cancel their passports and leave them stranded in the wonderland that is Iran.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iran-hosts-u-s-activists-conference-police-brutality-n452171 (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iran-hosts-u-s-activists-conference-police-brutality-n452171)
Not surprised.
What a circus that must have been. The stupidity of it all requires very little comment. This would be very much like prominent American conservatives being invited to a conference in North Korea to discuss the institutional liberal bias in the American news media. There needs to be an arrow that reminds you which way is up.
For some anything that is non-American is considered a good thing even if most of those attending would be imprisoned in Iran for various offenses.