There is something going on in Paris. There have been two explosions near a soccer stadium and a shootout at restaurant in Paris. There have been several deaths in the shootout. Nothing yet on the explosions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34814203
Holy crap. It's going to get ugly in Europe.
-- At least 60 people have died in the attacks, CNN affiliate BFMTV reported.
-- At least six shootings took place in Paris and three explosions took place at the Stade de France in Saint-Denis late Friday, CNN affiliate BFMTV said. Two or three gunmen entered the Bataclan concert hall while opening fire on law enforcement, BFMTV reported. A source earlier told CNN there were six to six hostage takes, citing a person they were talking to inside the venue.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995227/Paris-shooting-Many-feared-dead-live.html
Wow just wow.
>:( :(
Prayers for the victims and good hunting to the French police and military.
Vive le France
current reports are 60 dead + hostages
unlike the US, the French have no problem sending a shit-ton of boots onto whatever ground is needed and shooting the f-all out of whatever's in their way
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 13, 2015, 05:56:08 PM
>:( :(
Prayers for the victims and good hunting to the French police and military.
Vive le France
Amen.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 13, 2015, 05:56:08 PM
>:( :(
Prayers for the victims and good hunting to the French police and military.
Vive le France
+1
I pray for the safety of the remaining hostages.
Concert hall battle is over, two tangos dead. One arrested from somewhere (not necessarily from the hall) claims ISIS sponsored the attack.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 13, 2015, 06:17:45 PM
unlike the US, the French have no problem sending a shit-ton of boots onto whatever ground is needed and shooting the f-all out of whatever's in their way
Exactly what I was thinking. They've been kicking ass in Africa pretty well now for... a year or two? Kind of wondered (still do) if this attack was related to that. If it was triggered instead by the successful intersection of that supply road this morning (go Kurds!), then all ISIS did is awaken a sleeping dwarf and fill him with a terrible resolve. They didn't need more enemies, and certainly none like this.
{insert badass Warhammer dwarven art here as applicable}
...so the main question now is: home grown from Paris low life immigrants suburbs or fresh infiltrators using the endless tsunami of 'so called refugees' roaming totally free through Europe as cover :o
Curious that one of the targets was a Cambodian restaurant. I doubt we'll ever know the rationale for choosing that, but it would be interesting to learn what it was...
Quote from: MikeGER on November 13, 2015, 07:04:12 PM
...so the main question now is: home grown from Paris low life immigrants suburbs or fresh infiltrators using the endless tsunami of 'so called refugees' roaming totally free through Europe as cover :o
A mix of both seems likely.
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 13, 2015, 07:04:52 PM
Curious that one of the targets was a Cambodian restaurant. I doubt we'll ever know the rationale for choosing that, but it would be interesting to learn what it was...
It probably has more to do with the regular clientele (esp. if tourist) than with the owners.
Quote from: MikeGER on November 13, 2015, 07:04:12 PM
...so the main question now is: home grown from Paris low life immigrants suburbs or fresh infiltrators using the endless tsunami of 'so called refugees' roaming totally free through Europe as cover :o
I'm going with home grown (or at least many years residing) who have recently been 'on vacation'.
In the could-have-been-much-worse category: just heard that the French President was attending the France-Germany soccer match. I've heard no word yet what kind of casualties happened from the three (apparently suicide) detonations outside the stadium -- not enough to compare with the concert hall attack I guess -- but I find it hard to believe their plan was to detonate more-or-less harmlessly outside.
Timing problem maybe? The other attacks jumped the gun or the trio was late to post? Had they waited, they could have taken out a lot more in the ensuing evacuation of the stadium. Nervous triggers, or had they considered the President their target and so, not getting in place before news of other operations led to his secure departure, just detonated themselves on general principle?
CNN is saying around 100 dead in the concert hall.
It was the Eagles of Death Metal that were playing - US band out of LA.
From their Facebook Feed
We are still currently trying to determine the safety and whereabouts of all our band and crew. Our thoughts are with all of the people involved in this tragic situation.
Posted by Eagles Of Death Metal on Friday, November 13, 2015
Also worth wondering whether anyone in the Paris area was / is planning an aftershock attack, like earlier today (or yesterday?) in Beirut: wait for onlookers to gather then hit with a bigger bomb... (that happened earlier today, so I heard.)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 13, 2015, 07:21:11 PM
CNN is saying around 100 dead in the concert hall.
It was the Eagles of Death Metal that were playing - US band out of LA.
Guitars Guitarist out of Memphis; heard that in passing. (Jeez, getting old, can't type.)
Heard on the news a minute ago, that the EDM had accounted for their crew.
I was rather surprised, considering the early snapshots from inside, that that was the kind of concert going on. Looked more high-tone than that... :o
Holy shit.
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 13, 2015, 07:25:30 PM
Heard on the news a minute ago, that the EDM had accounted for their crew.
I was rather surprised, considering the early snapshots from inside, that that was the kind of concert going on. Looked more high-tone than that... :o
They're not really a death metal band. California desert hard rock from the guy who brought us the Queens of the Stone Age.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 13, 2015, 06:17:45 PM
current reports are 60 dead + hostages
unlike the US, the French have no problem sending a shit-ton of boots onto whatever ground is needed and shooting the f-all out of whatever's in their way
The problem is that they still won't shoot enough of them.
Geraldo Rivera's (younger?) daughter was at the soccer game; her parents were afraid she had been at the concert hall. She's naturally pretty shook up.
French President visiting concert hall declares "pitiless war" on ISIS by a united France.
The Fox anchor on duty tonight (can't recall his name) pointed out that ISIS has always said they wanted boots on the ground, on the idea that this would draw in all the militant Islamic fighters all over the world to help them. Kind of doubt ISIS leaders are right about that, but even if they are... fine. :knuppel2:
At what point do we load up B-52s with 500lb bombs and start carpet bombing every square inch of ISIS territory to take these SOBs out? :tickedoff:
Quote from: Capn Darwin on November 13, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
At what point do we load up B-52s with 500lb bombs and start carpet bombing every square inch of ISIS territory to take these SOBs out? :tickedoff:
As much as I like to see the good old Buffs flying, I really don't think that's the best approach.
Capturing an asteroid and dropping it on northern Syria and Iraq seem like a far more efficient means to bring this to and end.
>:(
Giving the Peshmerga heavier weapons might be a good start.
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 13, 2015, 10:03:55 PM
Giving the Peshmerga heavier weapons might be a good start.
Like an asteroid.
Asteroid with a Nuke attached. And a whistle so they'll all look up before it hits.
Quote from: Sir Slash on November 13, 2015, 11:03:29 PM
Asteroid with a Nuke attached. And a whistle so they'll all look up before it hits.
Now, that whistle is just gratuitous. I like it.
Quote from: Capn Darwin on November 13, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
At what point do we load up B-52s with 500lb bombs and start carpet bombing every square inch of ISIS territory to take these SOBs out? :tickedoff:
Claims of civilian casualties are mounting, even with NATO fighter-bombers making precision strikes with smart munitions.
LBJ tried to win a counter-insurgency with heavy bomber attacks; we know how that turned out.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 13, 2015, 05:56:08 PM
>:( :(
Prayers for the victims and good hunting to the French police and military.
Vive le France
Amen to that.
Bonne chance to the responders.
Liberte!
Agreed. Prayers for the victims and the families.
The big question in my mind is how many of the terrorists arrived in the recent refugee crisis. This is exactly the type of incident we feared might happen if we let in too many unvetted refugees.
I wonder who is responsible for this? Has to be those darned Amish again.
Prayers go out to all the victims as well as family/friends etc.
ISIS is claiming responsibility this morning, per CNN.
Looks like they're saying 85 dead at the concert hall.
Is Article 5 about to get re-invoked?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 14, 2015, 06:15:48 AM
Is Article 5 about to get re-invoked?
That's what I was wondering.
So shocking, so sad.
disney shut down - never thought id see that
driving to work this morning i was thinking, if ISIS, AQ and everyones elses goal is to push the west into a war - surely this is a flawed goal - once the line in the sand is crossed the west is going to come at you with such a magnitude of retribution and anger youll wish to fuck you stayed in your cave with your goats
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 14, 2015, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 14, 2015, 06:15:48 AM
Is Article 5 about to get re-invoked?
That's what I was wondering.
It is being reported that a Syrian passport has been found on at least one attacker.
Quote from: LongBlade on November 14, 2015, 12:09:27 AM
Agreed. Prayers for the victims and the families.
+100 :(
Quote from: LongBlade on November 14, 2015, 12:09:27 AM
The big question in my mind is how many of the terrorists arrived in the recent refugee crisis. This is exactly the type of incident we feared might happen if we let in too many unvetted refugees.
Well at least one tried and was captured (http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/09/italy-arrests-isis-terrorist-disguised-as-refugee/) and maybe thousands if you believe ISIS (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/555434/Islamic-State-ISIS-Smuggler-THOUSANDS-Extremists-into-Europe-Refugees)...which after last night does not seem so far fetched. I believe Merkel and Co has the blood of the victims from last night (and future attacks) on her/their hands >:(
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 14, 2015, 08:22:05 AM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 14, 2015, 06:57:26 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 14, 2015, 06:15:48 AM
Is Article 5 about to get re-invoked?
That's what I was wondering.
It is being reported that a Syrian passport has been found on at least one attacker.
Apparently another one was a French citizen known to police.
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 14, 2015, 08:01:58 AM
disney shut down - never thought id see that
First mandatory curfew imposed on Paris since
1944. :o
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 14, 2015, 08:01:58 AMdriving to work this morning i was thinking, if ISIS, AQ and everyones elses goal is to push the west into a war - surely this is a flawed goal - once the line in the sand is crossed the west is going to come at you with such a magnitude of retribution and anger youll wish to fuck you stayed in your cave with your goats
But they don't see it as a flawed goal. They're expecting God + (what they think of as) their inherent will to victory to lead them to a miraculous prophetic victory, as a witness to the world that everyone should become Muslim, and specifically Muslim like they are under their Caliphate.
IS-hole may also be trying to force Europe to stop accepting refugees as a reaction to the terror. While they want an eventual world-wide Caliphate they are probably more focused on preserving and building up the one they think they have now, straddling the Syrian/Iraqi border. The unprecedented flow of people out of the region represents a real brains and practical skill set drain which cannot bode well for the long term survival of any quasi-state, religious or otherwise. If all the doctors, accountants, bakers, carpenters, nurses, mechanics, veterinarians, middle managers, and teachers flee then all IS-hole has left are just the local peasantry who cannot be expected to do all the things needed to keep a society from collapsing into disease and famine without outside help, help that would only follow after the remaining starving and sickly Jihadis were rounded up by the combat boots that the Western Powers sent in first.
Quote from: Capn Darwin on November 13, 2015, 09:39:11 PM
At what point do we load up B-52s with 500lb bombs and start carpet bombing every square inch of ISIS territory to take these SOBs out? :tickedoff:
Once there are enough boots on the ground to ensure that none of the rats escape the sinking ship.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 13, 2015, 05:56:08 PM
>:( :(
Prayers for the victims and good hunting to the French police and military.
Vive le France
Amen!
Temporarily stickied
One dead terrorist is confirmed as a "refugee" >:(
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/14/greece-at-least-one-paris-suicide-bomber-was-a-syrian-registered-as-a-refugee-n2080794
...and 0bama wants to let in 10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year?
CNN now reporting the Paris chief prosecutor claiming 128 dead and 352 wounded, 100 of those 352 wounded critically.
Quote from: steve58 on November 14, 2015, 12:40:36 PM
One dead terrorist is confirmed as a "refugee" >:(
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/14/greece-at-least-one-paris-suicide-bomber-was-a-syrian-registered-as-a-refugee-n2080794
...and 0bama wants to let in 10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year?
Could it be that a purpose of the attack is to make you feel precisely that way?
Quote from: Toonces on November 14, 2015, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: steve58 on November 14, 2015, 12:40:36 PM
One dead terrorist is confirmed as a "refugee" >:(
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/14/greece-at-least-one-paris-suicide-bomber-was-a-syrian-registered-as-a-refugee-n2080794
...and 0bama wants to let in 10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year?
Could it be that a purpose of the attack is to make you feel precisely that way?
That's what I was saying a few posts back.
Quote from: Toonces on November 14, 2015, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: steve58 on November 14, 2015, 12:40:36 PM
One dead terrorist is confirmed as a "refugee" >:(
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/14/greece-at-least-one-paris-suicide-bomber-was-a-syrian-registered-as-a-refugee-n2080794 (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/14/greece-at-least-one-paris-suicide-bomber-was-a-syrian-registered-as-a-refugee-n2080794)
...and 0bama wants to let in 10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year?
Could it be that a purpose of the attack is to make you feel precisely that way?
And I'm not sure it matters. It isn't like any Western nation is stopping people from the Middle East at the borders and airports, examining their passports and saying "Sorry, not letting in anyone from Syria!"
Yes, probably some number of the refugees are sleepers. So are some number of people that enter France or the US on legitimate visas and passports. So are some number of second- and third-generation descendants of immigrants who are disaffected or just plain nuts. By far, most of them are not, though.
The problem isn't refugees, it's a death cult and a superstitious, tribal culture the produces these movements with monotonous regularity and is proving that it can't coexist with other cultures. We have to exterminate the death cult and try and gain enough space for anyone who is sane to try and get these people out of the Middle Ages.
1, possibly 2, of the attackers, have so far come from the Syrian refugees.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/holder-of-syrian-passport-found-near-paris-gunman-crossed-greece/article27264543/
Tell me again how many Merkel wants to let into the EU?
:uglystupid2:
Quote from: panzerde on November 14, 2015, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: Toonces on November 14, 2015, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: steve58 on November 14, 2015, 12:40:36 PM
One dead terrorist is confirmed as a "refugee" >:(
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/14/greece-at-least-one-paris-suicide-bomber-was-a-syrian-registered-as-a-refugee-n2080794 (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/11/14/greece-at-least-one-paris-suicide-bomber-was-a-syrian-registered-as-a-refugee-n2080794)
...and 0bama wants to let in 10,000 Syrian refugees over the next year?
Could it be that a purpose of the attack is to make you feel precisely that way?
And I'm not sure it matters. It isn't like any Western nation is stopping people from the Middle East at the borders and airports, examining their passports and saying "Sorry, not letting in anyone from Syria!"
Yes, probably some number of the refugees are sleepers. So are some number of people that enter France or the US on legitimate visas and passports. So are some number of second- and third-generation descendants of immigrants who are disaffected or just plain nuts. By far, most of them are not, though.
The problem isn't refugees, it's a death cult and a superstitious, tribal culture the produces these movements with monotonous regularity and is proving that it can't coexist with other cultures. We have to exterminate the death cult and try and gain enough space for anyone who is sane to try and get these people out of the Middle Ages.
Unfortunately there is a suspicion that the refugees are a Trojan horse.
Nobody wants to turn down sheltering refugees, but the problem is there are so many that we can't get a handle on who-is-who. That's the problem.
Also, I don't think Daesh's goal is to get the west to stop taking refugees - their goal is to get the west intimidated enough to let them have their caliphate. My guess is that they'd like to keep the refugees simply because it's more bodies to control and manipulate, but that goal isn't in the top three of their objectives - to the contrary, more refugees allow more bad guys to sneak into the west.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on November 14, 2015, 06:41:04 PM
1, possibly 2, of the attackers, have so far come from the Syrian refugees.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/holder-of-syrian-passport-found-near-paris-gunman-crossed-greece/article27264543/
Tell me again how many Merkel wants to let into the EU?
:uglystupid2:
Well according to UNHCR around 600.000 will arrive in europe within the next 4 month. And then the weather starts to be better again.
some news
http://www.vox.com/world/2015/11/14/9735512/paris-attacks-isis-why
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/11/14/paris-attacks-andrew-bacevich-war-west-cannot-win/UVlV0AsL8ddnE8L5gJaTXO/story.html
Yeah, I wouldn't exactly call the Boston Globe piece "news."
The vox is not news.
Yeah, I should've said "opinion" or "analysis" rather than news. Sorry. My Bad.
Does anyone know if "political correctness" is taught in the Middle East? Or the concept that everyone gets a trophy for participating? Or that it's ok to pass a math test just by writing a paragraph on why you, "feel it was the right answer?"
I don't have to tell any of you who are fed up with that narrative on our own soil that it will only lead to more Daesh. I strongly suspect that the participants look at us as soft, weak, and without "manhood." And if you don't respect your enemy, you will not stop fighting your enemy until you or he is dead. Because they are not worthy of being alive.
If you truly want to take the piss out of Daesh, open the borders to all who want out. Meet them there with hospital care, food, clothing and Christian charity. Everyone must go through a processing center. There, you will be indoctrinated in what is expected of you in the countries you are bound for. Yes, you may keep your names, your family, your religion. But you will be required to abide by secular law and using your religion as an excuse to circumvent said law will get you shipped back to where you came from. No appeal. Show the common Muslim that the demon West is made up of people, it is not its leaders. More good can be done to change the hearts and minds with a cup of coffee and a smile than all the bombs we could ever drop.
Send the new Canadian Defense Minister over to Syria. He looks like he could straighten some serious shit out. Maybe Ronda Rousey with him.
Unfortunately not. He's already spewing the Liberal party talking points and saying a diplomatic solution was the best way to deal with ISIS.
Quote from: MetalDog on November 14, 2015, 10:06:14 PM
Does anyone know if "political correctness" is taught in the Middle East? Or the concept that everyone gets a trophy for participating? Or that it's ok to pass a math test just by writing a paragraph on why you, "feel it was the right answer?"
I don't have to tell any of you who are fed up with that narrative on our own soil that it will only lead to more Daesh. I strongly suspect that the participants look at us as soft, weak, and without "manhood." And if you don't respect your enemy, you will not stop fighting your enemy until you or he is dead. Because they are not worthy of being alive.
If you truly want to take the piss out of Daesh, open the borders to all who want out. Meet them there with hospital care, food, clothing and Christian charity. Everyone must go through a processing center. There, you will be indoctrinated in what is expected of you in the countries you are bound for. Yes, you may keep your names, your family, your religion. But you will be required to abide by secular law and using your religion as an excuse to circumvent said law will get you shipped back to where you came from. No appeal. Show the common Muslim that the demon West is made up of people, it is not its leaders. More good can be done to change the hearts and minds with a cup of coffee and a smile than all the bombs we could ever drop.
You might be right if we were dealing with a tolerant and rational people but they are neither tolerant or rational. If you turn the other cheek to someone carrying a sword toward you, you are most likely to get your head cut off.
I agree that tolerant and rational are not always the qualities you find at the top of these organizations, but, the common man is basically the same the world round. They just want to live their lives and raise their families in peace. With enough food to eat and shelter, most people will be content. And we can put people in that situation. Opening the borders, welcoming them, and getting them indoctrinated is the way to go. The trade off for their getting to stay is to follow secular law. If you don't, you go back. Period.
The "common man" elsewhere doesn't always feel entitled to beat up gays and rape whores (any semi-attractive woman not wearing a sack) as the poor downtrodden ones from Islamic countries.
Two actions that would get you sent back immediately. I'm not advocating that we put up with ANY behavior we deem unacceptable. The response most people want right now is to bomb them back to the Stone Age. What can you hope to accomplish by killing innocents from the sky with bombs that say U.S.A. or France on them? That will only harden the people's hearts against us and make it easier for the "hate the West" message that Daesh spreads to be effective. Taking the common man in and showing him the "the West" has something to offer gives a different perspective and narrative.
For example, regardless of what you think about the U.S. going into Iraq, once we got there, we needed to stay there for a generation. Give the adults a framework of democracy, how it works and its benefits. At the same time, teaching their children that this is the new norm and can be trusted. So when we finally left, the people who would take over would have a vested interest in continuing our work. We didn't stay, and this is one of the consequences.
Regarding the status of the refugees.
QuoteRep. Peter King rebuffed the Obama Administration's claim that there are "robust vetting procedures" in place for Syrian refugees entering the U.S. during an interview on Fox News Sunday.
Prior to King's segment, Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes said, "we're still planning to take in Syrian refugees" and that there are "very robust vetting procedures for those refugees." (RELATED: Obama Admin. Still Wants To Admit Syrian Refugees Into U.S.)
"I was listening to Ben Rhodes, and what he just said about the robust vetting of refugees is untrue," King, who's chairman of House Subcommittee on Terrorism, told host Chris Wallace. "There's virtually no vetting. There are no databases in Syria. There are no government records."
"We don't know who these people are, King added, "and when you meet with the people doing the vetting, they tell us that. They are rolling a dice here and we know that isis wants to bring in terrorists with these refugees." (RELATED: Paris Attacker Was A Syrian 'Refugee')
source: http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/15/rep-king-obama-admin-wrong-robust-vetting-about-refugees-is-untrue/
Quote from: MetalDog on November 15, 2015, 12:01:50 PM
Two actions that would get you sent back immediately. I'm not advocating that we put up with ANY behavior we deem unacceptable. The response most people want right now is to bomb them back to the Stone Age. What can you hope to accomplish by killing innocents from the sky with bombs that say U.S.A. or France on them? That will only harden the people's hearts against us and make it easier for the "hate the West" message that Daesh spreads to be effective. Taking the common man in and showing him the "the West" has something to offer gives a different perspective and narrative.
For example, regardless of what you think about the U.S. going into Iraq, once we got there, we needed to stay there for a generation. Give the adults a framework of democracy, how it works and its benefits. At the same time, teaching their children that this is the new norm and can be trusted. So when we finally left, the people who would take over would have a vested interest in continuing our work. We didn't stay, and this is one of the consequences.
I think you are being very hopeful. It has been tried in the past, but it doesn't work for all. Sadly this is like a cancer. One small rotten element - if it isn't cut out and destroyed then infects the rest and death follows.
Everyone should copy the Australian system. Refugees are given food and shelter on an island away from the country.
Now that I think about it, just pay Greece to keep them on an island there. Help Greece pay down it's debt - win win.
Quote from: Boggit on November 15, 2015, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: MetalDog on November 15, 2015, 12:01:50 PM
Two actions that would get you sent back immediately. I'm not advocating that we put up with ANY behavior we deem unacceptable. The response most people want right now is to bomb them back to the Stone Age. What can you hope to accomplish by killing innocents from the sky with bombs that say U.S.A. or France on them? That will only harden the people's hearts against us and make it easier for the "hate the West" message that Daesh spreads to be effective. Taking the common man in and showing him the "the West" has something to offer gives a different perspective and narrative.
For example, regardless of what you think about the U.S. going into Iraq, once we got there, we needed to stay there for a generation. Give the adults a framework of democracy, how it works and its benefits. At the same time, teaching their children that this is the new norm and can be trusted. So when we finally left, the people who would take over would have a vested interest in continuing our work. We didn't stay, and this is one of the consequences.
I think you are being very hopeful. It has been tried in the past, but it doesn't work for all. Sadly this is like a cancer. One small rotten element - if it isn't cut out and destroyed then infects the rest and death follows.
So, a surgical strike on their leadership? Cut the head off and the body dies? Let me paint this picture for you then. Let's say that Daesh has the chance to take out the leadership of the U.K. An explosion at Parliament. It takes out the PM, Lords and Commons. What then? The common man should just shrug his shoulders and move along until a new governing body can be assembled? Or maybe, the common man rejoices and praises Daesh for freeing them from the oppressive bastards that ran the government?
I'm not saying there is a simple solution. It makes more sense to me that a considered and compassionate response, backed with the intestinal fortitude to carry out the rules, is the winning formula. What I am saying is that we have to take action. It has to be decisive. And it can't be half measures. In for a penny. In for a pound.
Quote from: MetalDog on November 15, 2015, 12:01:50 PM
For example, regardless of what you think about the U.S. going into Iraq, once we got there, we needed to stay there for a generation. Give the adults a framework of democracy, how it works and its benefits. At the same time, teaching their children that this is the new norm and can be trusted. So when we finally left, the people who would take over would have a vested interest in continuing our work. We didn't stay, and this is one of the consequences.
100% agree. I wouldn't have been adverse to making them a territory on the path to statehood, in all the positive senses of those terms. But what you said at the least: there has to be time for a stable society and government to grow.
Word's come over the news that France is now bombing ISIS camps in Syria.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 15, 2015, 05:27:44 PM
Word's come over the news that France is now bombing ISIS camps in Syria.
All the previous discussions here not withstanding, I don't see how the French Gov't could have avoided striking at the Syrian terrorist strongholds right now if it wanted to appear potent in the eyes of the French public.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/15/middleeast/france-announces-raqqa-airstrikes-on-isis/index.html
"The Fourth Generation is not defined as Tom Hammas defines it, insurgency, which is just a buzzword for something that's old. What defines the Fourth Generation is the state's loss of the monopoly on war it established at Westphalia. That is by far the biggest change in war since 1648. As Martin van Creveld, the Israeli military historian puts it, "what changes is not how war is fought, but who fights and what they fight for." And those are larger changes than the changes in how war is fought.
In a Fourth Generation war, the U.S. praises itself for the new counterinsurgency manual, which is just a rehash from Vietnam. If it's a rehash of Vietnam, with whom do we sit down with in Paris to make peace? Who can deliver it? When you have this endless kaleidescope of opponents fighting for different goals and different kinds of goals, how do you end it?
Another key aspect is that we move from a world of states at war to a world of cultures at war. And other cultures do not fight the way we do. I'm sure most, if not all of you know that most Arab armies are crap. But when Arabs fight, in accordance with their own traditions, which is irregular light cavalry warfare, they've proven to be quite good at it. We call it terrorism. The passing way of war always calls the arriving way of war terrorism. To the knights on horseback, musketeers were terrorists. There were actually rules ordering their eyes to be put out if they were captured.
Other cultures don't fight the way we do. We fight like a football game. Everybody lines up, they blow the whistle, and go wham into one another. The phalanx. The joust. Other cultures don't do that. Other cultures fight indirectly. We all celebrate the Athenian victories over the Persians at Marathon and Salamis. But the Persians ended up beating the Athenians. How did they do it? They provided Sparta with money and a fleet. There are other ways to fight and most other cultures prefer indirect ways of war.
We don't get it, because we say if it's not a joust, it's not war. Sorry, if it changes the outcome on the ground, it's war, regardless of whether it is by playing King of the Hill or not. Yes, we can play King of the Hill better than anyone else. We can be the cock of the dung hill on any dung hill on Earth if we want to. But there is more to war than that. John Boyd used to say, "when I was a young officer they taught me that if you have land superiority and air superiority and sea superiority, you win. Well, in Vietnam, we had land superiority and air superiority and sea superiority, but we lost. So there's obviously something more to it." Other cultures' ways of war play over a much broader spectrum and we are having real trouble coming to grips with that.
All over the world, state militaries are having enormous trouble coming to grips with non-state opponents. Because what were you designed to fight? What are you equipped to fight, what are you trained to fight, what do you want to fight? Somebody like yourself, with similar uniforms and tanks and planes. That's our game. The problem is that game has become a joust. Which is to say, entertainment, because real war has gone in a very different direction."
The Four Generations of Modern War by William S. Lind Published by Castalia House Kouvola, Finland www.castaliahouse.com
Get the book on kindle for a few bucks.
Thanks for the above, I'm going to check it out.
QuoteBut there is more to war than that. John Boyd used to say, "when I was a young officer they taught me that if you have land superiority and air superiority and sea superiority, you win. Well, in Vietnam, we had land superiority and air superiority and sea superiority, but we lost. So there's obviously something more to it." Other cultures' ways of war play over a much broader spectrum and we are having real trouble coming to grips with that.
For me, this is a crux of the issue. We are not prepared or equipped to play their game. IMHO, we should pull our forces out of the Middle East and let them sort out their own issues with each other. But we should strongly support our friends there, even if they be bastards like Saddam.
Obama still doesn't get it. Listening to him speak at the G20. Doesn't believe the refugee issue related to the issue of terrorism. He also has no will to commit US troops to the ground.
Quote from: OJsDad on November 16, 2015, 10:45:23 AM
Obama still doesn't get it. Listening to him speak at the G20. Doesn't believe the refugee issue related to the issue of terrorism. He also has no will to commit US troops to the ground.
We probably should've done this earlier, but let's shift discussions of the politics of fighting (or even acknowledging) terror and discussions of how to respond over to RPFW. Thanks!
This is not a knock on OJsDad. This should've been done for all of us before now :)
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=15416
I agree with some of Lind's positions so far as they were quoted (thanks, Biggs), but not with all of it.
First, I don't call terrorism "terrorism" because it's the new hotness in methodology and I'm stuck in the old combat paradigm. I call it terrorism because its purpose is to sow terror in civilian populations by attacking non-combatants. Nor do I think that's the new hotness in method; it's a new word for something that's old (like "insurgency"), although how they're going about it is a little new in terms of the technology for killing non-combatants being more efficient than from the 19th century backward. Lind's comparison to musketeers is almost completely inapt. I suppose I should also add that what we're calling "terrorism" is certainly not irregular light cavalry skirmishing. ::) :crazy2: :uglystupid2:
Second, the Viet Cong and especially the NVA were perfectly willing to fight a conventional war when they thought they could win it; they just had enough sense not to insist on a conventional war at some tactical and operational levels, sometimes. But even those times were meant, by the North itself, to be lulls and preparations for the conventional fighting. And even once we withdrew, leaving the ARVN to protect its own country, the NVA won their final victory with a conventional blitzkrieg push using the latest in conventional technology which their allies could supply.
To that I could add that ISIS itself hasn't won and held its gains by insurgency or terrorism. They got together an army or two or three, organized more-or-less properly, deployed more-or-less properly, and fought a conventional war against an opponent who wasn't really prepared to fight that way.
Lind's own position, so far as is stated in those paragraphs, runs quite counter to what he quoted from van Creveld: Lind doesn't go on to start talking about who is fighting and what is being fought for, but focuses immediately on how the war is being fought. (Except, as noted above, not really. ;) )
I do however agree that not only the how (sometimes) but the who and the why have been changing; and I agree that we could define it (I'm not sure I'd call it the Fourth Generation of Modern War but whatever) as "the state's loss of the monopoly on war", maybe from farther back than Westphalia, but concurrent with the modern transition of world governments into nation-states.
... ....... come to think of it, this may be my extent of substantial agreement with Lind so far as quoted. ;) It's like this guy has never even heard of the Cold War: yes, I'm PRETTY DAMN SURE that modern Western militaries are well aware that whatever changes the conditions on the ground is war, and that fighting indirectly (such as by paying proxies to fight) still counts as war.
(Uh, I know BBCode has a way for admins and mods to move posts into a new thread elsewhere. Maybe that should / could be done here, for political / social commentary?)
I love it. I've got a Canadian friend that's a big liberal. He couldn't stand the Conservatives being in power for 10 years. He was happy as hell the Liberals on he recent election and furious after the Paris attack and going on and on about the world needing to go to war to destroy ISIS. And now his new DM wants to try dialog an reasoning. Can't make this stuff-up.
Quote from: JasonPratt on November 16, 2015, 11:30:50 AM
(Uh, I know BBCode has a way for admins and mods to move posts into a new thread elsewhere. Maybe that should / could be done here, for political / social commentary?)
just copy and paste it yourself :)
I like a lot of what Lind has to say, but in this as well as his text on Maneuver Warfare he's guilty of cherry-picking to support his position. And while I think there is considerable validity to his points about Fourth Generation Warfare, particularly as it applied to Iraq and to some extent Afghanistan, I'm not sure it's as applicable to ISIS.
Let's start with the cherry-picking. Sure, NATO conventional forces are tools of direct war. But to look at the post-WWII activity of Western intelligence agencies and claim that the West doesn't engage in indirect war is a stretch. If the example Lind wants to use if the Persians funding the Spartans to defeat Athens in the Peloponnesian War, then certainly Charlie Wilson's War in Afghanistan is a direct parallel. And, like our funding of the Mujahideen versus the Soviets, the Persians experienced some nasty blowback: all their efforts accomplished was to clear the field for Alexander and to give the Macedonians an excuse for the phalanxes to put paid to any future Persian aspirations towards "indirect warfare." If that's Lind's example then we got off lightly in comparison, and I'd suggest that rather than proving his point it suggests that maybe the Persian approach wasn't so great after all.
Lind only wants to look at militaries, and fails to consider all of the non-military solutions. He's enamoured with indirection. He has some good points and planners would be well served to take heed of what he says, but let's look at the facts on the ground:
Al Qaeda is washed up. They haven't managed a significant operation in years now, their leadership is mostly dead, and all of their recruits are going to ISIS (more on that in a minute). They have no credibility left in the Moslem world, and that's because they lost their operational capability. Why? Because we hunted them down, cut off their sources of revenue, denied them any place to base out of, and every time they popped a head up, we blew it off with a Hellfire. I think if you look at operations against Al Qaeda over the course of the last fifteen years, they've been pretty damn effective. A big part of that success was indirect warfare, but a big part of it was the poor bloody infantry on the ground, too.
Despite many so-called experts decrying it at the time, the troop surge in Iraq pretty much shut the insurrection down. Yes, it takes a mix of shooting the people that need to be shot combined with Hearts & Minds activity, but the issue isn't that Western militaries can't cope with COIN and Lind's Fourth Generation Warfare. It's that you can't do it on the cheap, you need enough troops, and screw Donald Rumsfeld very much, thanks.
Subsequent failures in Iraq have been due to our foreign policy and strategic blunders in not actually building a regime that could survive, and not because our forces couldn't end the insurrection. If you prop up a new Shia regime and turn a deaf ear to the complaints of the Sunnis, and then pull all of your troops out (after having made sure that the former Baathist military leadership were always going to be considered criminals) guess what you're going to get? I suspect it looks a lot like a bunch of Baathist-led Sunnis playing radicals. Sound familiar? That doesn't have squat to do with Western military capability.
I could go on about the Arab Spring and how all of that was pretty clearly propped up by Western "indirect" efforts, but we can all see how well that's turned out.
Finally, let's get real about ISIS. Equating these guys to the "traditional" terrorist cells in the Middle East is just incorrect. ISIS is acting like a state. It wants to hold territory. It's minting coinage, passing laws, engaging in commerce (selling tons of oil on the sly), and in general, trying to be an actual country, not a terrorist cell. ISIS ceases to exist if it packs up and goes to hide in caves like Al Qaeda did. It has to have a presence on the ground. Yes, they are going to try and execute attacks like they just did in France, and Lind is right that those sorts of attacks are part of the repertoire of Arab fighters going way back - but those kinds of actions don't take and hold ground and oil fields, which ISIS has to have. ISIS is a state. Which makes it vulnerable to exactly the sort of military action Lind's book says doesn't work anymore. Take their territory, blockade oil sales, deprive them of means to make money, places to build bases, and access to recruits and ISIS is gone.
Which doesn't mean that some other group of Middle East zealots won't pop up and do some of the same crap. As long as Arab Muslim culture clings to the values it clings to, there's absolutely nothing we can do to stop that from happening. I agree with Lind that there is a war of cultures going on here. I don't buy that it's Muslim culture so much as I think it's the culture of the Middle East and Central Asia. Indonesia has more Muslims than anywhere else, and we don't see a ton of radicalism coming from there, for example. We're going to have to address the Arab cultural issue if we have a hope of ending this, and that's tough, because these people nurse grudges for freaking centuries. They make the Irish look like pikers. I mean, the Shite-Sunni conflict is the equivalent of having Catholics and Lutherans routinely killing each other over the Thirty Years War, except it goes back even further and the central issue wasn't of the magnitude of the TYW.
Ultimately, the ME is screwed. They heydays of easy oil money are over; the US and Russia produce more than enough to meet domestic needs here and in Europe, and Chinese demand is way down. Alternative energy sources are coming online. Iran is about to start selling serious amount of oil again. Unemployment throughout the region is about to spike like it never has before. Culturally, these people persist in practices that skew their demographics toward young males. Climate change is going to make the region uninhabitable or nearly so over the course of the next century. Combine all of that with radical interpretations of their religion and a culture that encourages beliefs that are completely orthogonal to ours, and there is NO WAY you aren't going to get more radicalization and terrorism. Toss Western support for Israel into the mix, and the fuse is lit.
This isn't an issue of Fourth Generation Warfare. We can beat any Middle Eastern radical movement any time we are willing to expend the blood and treasure to do so. Unfortunately, even if we were to leave these people completely alone from now on, and even if we care for their refugees, set up McDonalds' on every street corner, and subsidize their economies, they are going to keep doing this. Because culturally, they simply can not tolerate living alongside our culture. They entire point of what they are doing here is to try and force Western culture to change into their culture. That's why even "moderate" Middle Eastern Muslims express the attitude that while they may not approve of terrorism per se, they sympathize with the aims of these radical movements.
As I said to a friend the other day "Somebody needs the Reformation, and fast." The culture of the Middle East is out of the Middle Ages, it just uses modern technology. I doubt we can change it from the outside, or are at least unwilling to do what's necessary to change it. Instead we'd best get ready for this to be the normal state of affairs. Militarily and strategically I think that means building and maintaining a full set of capabilities that includes Lind's Fourth Generation Warfare but also a fair number of MBTs, fighters, bombers, and ships. Even if all we ever see from a post-ISIS ME are non-state actors, it sure looks to me like Russia and China have plenty of the conventional forces Lind thinks are useless today. It's plain that Russian at least isn't afraid to use them, either.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 16, 2015, 11:25:17 AM
Quote from: OJsDad on November 16, 2015, 10:45:23 AM
Obama still doesn't get it. Listening to him speak at the G20. Doesn't believe the refugee issue related to the issue of terrorism. He also has no will to commit US troops to the ground.
We probably should've done this earlier, but let's shift discussions of the politics of fighting (or even acknowledging) terror and discussions of how to respond over to RPFW. Thanks!
This is not a knock on OJsDad. This should've been done for all of us before now :)
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=15416
Agree with the separate thread.
FYI, my comments were directed to the press conference Pres. Obama just had in Turkey.
Quote from: OJsDad on November 16, 2015, 11:42:39 AMFYI, my comments were directed to the press conference Pres. Obama just had in Turkey.
I figured that's what you were referring to, but just want to channel the discussion into a different area
I'll copy-paste commentary to an RPFW thread soon, if someone doesn't beat me to it.
Back to news on the Paris situation: Associated Press is saying the (probable?) mastermind behind this was foiled twice recently in his plots, once by those Air Force tourists. (Am I remembering their service branch right? Slept since then. ;) )
QuoteA French official, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity, said police had identified the suspected mastermind as Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a Belgian national believed to operating in Syria. He is featured in a 2014 video apparently taken in Syria boasting of carrying a cargo of killed "infidels" in the back of his vehicle.
The official, who has direct knowledge of the police investigation but is not authorized to speak publicly about the probe, said Abaaoud also is suspected of overseeing two thwarted attacks earlier this year on a Paris church and a Paris-bound train. The latter attack was stopped by American passengers who restrained a gun-toting man before he could open fire.
QuoteThe officials also said a sleeper cell in France met the attackers before their attack and helped them to plan it. They said 24 people were involved: 19 attackers and five who provided logistics and planning.
http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story/1001/20151116/9724
In slightly annoying news, someone thought it was a good idea to set off some fireworks during the memorial, causing a stampede. I'm going to guess alcohol was involved in that decision. ::)
These asshats can't even get their precious little Caliphate going where they live. What makes them think this will be a worldwide thing? The Communists thought the same thing, and look where it got them.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 16, 2015, 12:56:15 PMThe Communists thought the same thing, and look where it got them.
it got them a significant chunk of world real estate for a while there.
then human nature took over and the communist dream turned into any other strongman-based regime
Very well said panzerde. This is why I'm content to let the Russians slug it out over there. We don't belong there because we are not prepared to play the game on their level. Politically, our public would never let us, their hearts would soften unless a nuke or a dirty bomb went off in Dallas, and Kansas City, and San Diego, and Orlando. That would galvanize the entire West because it would galvanize America.
Obama and Putin meet today, I wonder, based on what Obama said at the press conference, if he struck some kind of deal with Putin.
One thing that I am seeing on Facebook, that is pissing me off, is intended to calm people down. Pictures of Klansmen and ISIS stating that ISIS is no more representative of Islam than the Klan is representative of Christianity; implying that the majority of people believe that ISIS=Islam. But I have no idea who those people are, as I have never met any.
I've stopped commenting (on FB) because one time I pointed out some differences, including the fact that ISIS governs an area the size of the UK, to which it was replied that the Confederacy was pretty big. :o :P I just don't have the energy to take that on.
Quote from: OJsDad on November 16, 2015, 01:40:54 PM
Obama and Putin meet today, I wonder, based on what Obama said at the press conference, if he struck some kind of deal with Putin.
I'm thinking that, if they were wise, they'd leave Assad alone to rule whatever has left; they'd allow the establishment of a Kurdish state; they'd allow the establishment of an Iraqi Shiite state, and then focus their attention to smashing ISIS and replacing it with an Iraqi Sunni state (under the thumb of the Jordanians or Saudis).
We're trying to consolidate the political commentary here (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=15416.msg402702#msg402702), and leave this thread for reporting news developments. I think I'm caught up reposting everyone. :)
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 16, 2015, 01:56:32 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on November 16, 2015, 01:40:54 PM
Obama and Putin meet today, I wonder, based on what Obama said at the press conference, if he struck some kind of deal with Putin.
I'm thinking that, if they were wise, they'd leave Assad alone to rule whatever has left; they'd allow the establishment of a Kurdish state; they'd allow the establishment of an Iraqi Shiite state, and then focus their attention to smashing ISIS and replacing it with an Iraqi Sunni state (under the thumb of the Jordanians or Saudis).
That sounds a rational solution. Everyone wins, except ISIS.
QuoteOn November 5, nine days before the terrorist attacks on Paris, a 51-year old Montenegrin was stopped on an autobahn by German police. The officers found a revolver in the man's glove compartment and continued searching the car. They discovered that the vehicle had been professionally modified to create secret compartments for weapons. The cache reportedly included eight AK-47s, two pistols, two hand grenades, fuses, detonators and a half pound of TNT. The man had driven from Montenegro through Croatia, Slovenia and Austria before being stopped in Germany. The GPS in his car was set for Paris.
source: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/11/could-aggressive-interrogation-have-prevented-the-paris-attacks.php
That points out another problem in monitoring terrorists' movements- keeping western gangsters from selling guns to terrorists who are already in place.
I wonder if re-establishing border checkpoints would help.
^France and Sweden think it will. Hungary moreso...with razor wire and dogs. Welcome to 1946.
Quote from: Boggit on November 16, 2015, 06:36:58 PMEveryone wins, except ISIS.
The Turks are not going to allow the establishment of a Kurdish state, lest 30% of their country try to secede to join it
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 16, 2015, 10:22:01 PM
Quote from: Boggit on November 16, 2015, 06:36:58 PMEveryone wins, except ISIS.
The Turks are not going to allow the establishment of a Kurdish state, lest 30% of their country try to secede to join it
As I have stated previously, if the Turks don't like the idea of a Kurdistani bulwark against Jihadiism then they can get their asses into Northern Syria toot sweet and start kicking ISIS butt like they actually mean it. It's not like the Turkish army is small potatoes or anything. ::)
Quote from: Staggerwing on November 16, 2015, 10:32:14 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 16, 2015, 10:22:01 PM
Quote from: Boggit on November 16, 2015, 06:36:58 PMEveryone wins, except ISIS.
The Turks are not going to allow the establishment of a Kurdish state, lest 30% of their country try to secede to join it
As I have stated previously, if the Turks don't like the idea of a Kurdistani bulwark against Jihadiism then they can get their asses into Northern Syria toot sweet and start kicking ISIS butt like they actually mean it. It's not like the Turkish army is small potatoes or anything. ::)
+1
Saw on the news this morning while passing by, that Russia now accepts the results of bomb residue on the Airbus explosion; Putin vows to kick ass, and has started aggressively bombing ISIS sites in Syria.
Or, uh, y'know, sites in Syria that might have heard of ISIS one day, something like that. ::)
(I'll be curious, considering his past record, whether he's actually aiming at ISIS now or using this as an excuse to aim at more of his putative ally's foes.)
(OMG you guys, I just thought of a great title for a thread: Putatively Putin! :D )
Putatively Putin does have a nice ring to it. O0
(https://scontent.fash1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12219603_923956121030081_9047859783093257571_n.jpg?oh=0a5a011d1a8346cc2eca57823f0c2eb3&oe=56EFC3EE)
caption was
QuoteThis was used by the French team that entered the Bataclan in Paris. 27 hits.
Anyone who repeats stupid "French are cowards" insults doesn't deserve to lick the boots of the men who carried this shield.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 17, 2015, 09:22:40 AM
(https://scontent.fash1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12219603_923956121030081_9047859783093257571_n.jpg?oh=0a5a011d1a8346cc2eca57823f0c2eb3&oe=56EFC3EE)
caption was
QuoteThis was used by the French team that entered the Bataclan in Paris. 27 hits.
Anyone who repeats stupid "French are cowards" insults doesn't deserve to lick the boots of the men who carried this shield.
Respect.
Being the armchair chicken-shit that I am, I could say something snarky along the lines of "more respect if he wasn't hiding behind 6 inches of bullet-proof shielding." :P O:-)
All kidding aside the French are the US's oldest ally...they don't deserve to be called "cheese eating surrender monkeys," all the time. Only some of the time :)
Considering the spread of bullets on that shield, most terrorists shoot like stormtroopers.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 17, 2015, 02:44:59 PM
Considering the spread of bullets on that shield, most terrorists shoot like stormtroopers.
Or like someone shooting an AK47...on full auto...from the hip... :P
QuoteBeing the armchair chicken-shit that I am, I could say something snarky along the lines of "more respect if he wasn't hiding behind 6 inches of bullet-proof shielding." :P O:-)
The only two ways to enter and clear a room in this sort of tactical situation without prohibitive casualties is shields or grenades. I guess I'm glad they didn't use grenades.
Or the Russian method: just gas everyone.
...getting antsy in Germany, but who can blame them ???
Quote
UPDATE: It appears that a major terrorist attack has been thwarted in Germany:
BREAKING: Hanover chief of police: "There was a device intended to be detonated inside the stadium." #GERNED
— DW Sports (@dw_sports) November 17, 2015
Details are preliminary and scarce, but it sounds as if authorities were tipped off that a truck disguised as an emergency vehicle was loaded with explosives and parked at or near the stadium. German Chancellor Angela Merkel (who welcomed a huge wave of Syrian refugees into her country) was supposedly scheduled to attend the soccer match.
UPDATE II: Another German soccer venue is reportedly being evacuated, as conflicting accounts cloud details of the alleged first incident. There's been word of two "suspicious devices" and a tip to police, but no confirmation of the 'truck filled with bombs' rumor. This may have been a false alarm. Needless to say, Europe is on edge.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2015/11/17/report-third-suspect-linked-to-paris-attacked-posed-as-syrian-refugee-n2082053
ISIS may want to be careful attacking the European football culture. I here they get crazy about that sport over there... :knuppel2:
Police confirm they have irrefutable evidence somebody planned to cause an explosion inside the football ground
Well, I guess the Russians are done screwing around:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/17/russia-pounds-isis-with-biggest-bomber-raid-in-decades.html?source=TDB&via=FB_Page
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 17, 2015, 03:39:31 PM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 17, 2015, 02:44:59 PM
Considering the spread of bullets on that shield, most terrorists shoot like stormtroopers.
Or like someone shooting an AK47...on full auto...from the hip... :P
QuoteBeing the armchair chicken-shit that I am, I could say something snarky along the lines of "more respect if he wasn't hiding behind 6 inches of bullet-proof shielding." :P O:-)
The only two ways to enter and clear a room in this sort of tactical situation without prohibitive casualties is shields or grenades. I guess I'm glad they didn't use grenades.
Or the Russian method: just gas everyone.
As long as you bring an anesthetist to figure out the correct dosage of tacticalized (did I just invent a word?) Fentanyl to knock out an entire theater full of terrorists before they realize what the "Pssssssssssss" and the sudden wooziness mean.
The Russians are definitely taking advantage of this situation as 'practice.'
Honestly, I didn't realize they could get that many Backfires into the air these days. I thought it was also interesting that the Backfires were dropping iron bombs, while they apparently used the Bears and Blackjacks for the cruise missiles.
Here's another article with a bit more technical information on the raid: http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/17/russian-tu-22s-joined-the-syria-air-war/
Someone should pass them a map with the ISIS areas under bullseyes.
Ongoing raid in Paris: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-attacks/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-attacks/index.html)
Two suspects dead, one of whom died when she activated a suicide belt. The French say this group was just about to launch another operation.
they also suspect the 'mastermind' to have been there too, despite earlier intel saying he was in syria
Backfire is a beautiful airplane. The Russians really know how to build good-lookin' jets! :smitten:
Quote from: Toonces on November 18, 2015, 07:27:58 AM
Backfire is a beautiful airplane. The Russians really know how to build good-lookin' jets! :smitten:
It's ok, but nothing beats the sheer elegance of a B-1:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a4/3a/5f/a43a5fd0364f9c5ab59eeb555a027416.jpg)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.capmembers.com%2Fprof_dev_modules%2Fcap_lesson_14%2Flesson14_html%2Fb1tetons.jpg&hash=8871a2e579fcf16c11901562d831d8d5dd777d03)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aircraftinformation.info%2FImages%2FB-1_10.jpg&hash=53007f6ab2427deb68ff759d6d8a80e1e0458e7d)
One of those articles stated the Russians aren't necessarily hitting ISIL/ISIS targets, though. I'm willing to bet this bomber force represents pretty much all of their offensive capability, strategic bomber-wise anyway. I wonder how many didn't make the raid due to maintenance issues.
They weren't originally. They were claiming to hit ISIL targets while actually hitting anti-Assad rebels. That changed after their airliner was blown up.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 18, 2015, 05:54:31 AM
Ongoing raid in Paris: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-attacks/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-attacks/index.html)
Two suspects dead, one of whom died when she activated a suicide belt. The French say this group was just about to launch another operation.
I really hope that a component of recent anti-terrorist raids includes other Muslims contacting authorities to identify suspected terrorists.
Some commentary from John Robb on 4th Gen/Open Source warfare and ISIS.
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2015/11/some-notes-on-how-isis-is-advancing-open-source-warfare.html
Quote from: Centurion40 on November 18, 2015, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on November 18, 2015, 05:54:31 AM
Ongoing raid in Paris: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-attacks/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/world/paris-attacks/index.html)
Two suspects dead, one of whom died when she activated a suicide belt. The French say this group was just about to launch another operation.
I really hope that a component of recent anti-terrorist raids includes other Muslims contacting authorities to identify suspected terrorists.
Totally agree. It was proven in Iraq that support from Muslims saying enough and working with US and Iraq government to put an end to the terrorists.
we could just send this guy
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-0/p180x540/12249728_921867047863089_2249792631484737109_n.jpg?oh=0682bae8c14d7c5b35a87f0b4393bdfe&oe=56ED98C8)
If "theirs" a war on grammar, this guy should be in the frontline (and will be the first casualty).
You guys are forgetting Father Obama told us, the Russians are acting out of weakness. Lets hope they launch some more mass air-weakenings on ISIS's asses soon.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on November 18, 2015, 07:55:16 AM
One of those articles stated the Russians aren't necessarily hitting ISIL/ISIS targets, though. I'm willing to bet this bomber force represents pretty much all of their offensive capability, strategic bomber-wise anyway. I wonder how many didn't make the raid due to maintenance issues.
Probably true. However, when doing some background reading I was reminded that our initial heavy bomber attack for Desert Storm was a mere seven bombers. Also that on any given day, due to maintenance issues and the like our entire bomber force is about 57 B-52s, B-1s, and B-2s.
As someone that grew up outside of Wright-Patterson AFB in the 1960s and 70s when the 17th Bomb Wing was stationed there, watching B-52s fly over every six minutes, a bomber force of only 57 flyable aircraft just seems unthinkable to me. :o
The overall impression I had was that while the Russian bomber force isn't what ours is, it's still the second largest in the world and it's coming back from a low point in the 1990s, with continuing improvements.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 18, 2015, 07:56:38 AM
They weren't originally. They were claiming to hit ISIL targets while actually hitting anti-Assad rebels. That changed after their airliner was blown up.
How sure are we about that? I've been out of the loop a bit the past few days, but I remember cynically wondering whether they were really going to start doing what they had said they were doing now.
Quote from: Toonces on November 18, 2015, 07:27:58 AM
Backfire is a beautiful airplane. The Russians really know how to copy good-lookin' jets! :smitten:
There, I fixed it for you.
"Do you believe that President Obama underestimated ISIS when he called it the JV team?" Zakaria asked. "I don't think it's useful to go back and re-plow old ground," Clinton said.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427355/hilllary-clinton-defends-obamas-isis-jv-label
Huma must have forgotten to tell her ward about the Paris attacks.
I caught the last part of the news story last night but it sounded like one of the people decorating the walls in St. Denis was the organiser of the attacks
Later on they had an awesome interview with a girl who survived getting shot in the head at the bataclan
'Men with guns tried to kill you and take away your life, you survived, endured and defied them - what would you say to them if you could'
...............................'fuck you'
I don't know what they expected but the bbc reporter flapping his arms as if that would make the bad word go away was hilarious
Quote from: undercovergeek on November 21, 2015, 04:00:30 AM
I caught the last part of the news story last night but it sounded like one of the people decorating the walls in St. Denis was the organiser of the attacks
Later on they had an awesome interview with a girl who survived getting shot in the head at the bataclan
'Men with guns tried to kill you and take away your life, you survived, endured and defied them - what would you say to them if you could'
...............................'fuck you'
I don't know what they expected but the bbc reporter flapping his arms as if that would make the bad word go away was hilarious
LOL
^HAHAHAHA!!! That's the best thing to come of this whole horror.
That's exactly the right thing to say.
Now, we need to sneak some SF types into Raqqa and replace all of their flags with these:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--J3LJSHD---%2F1326153025707708484.jpg&hash=cce9450b7c1ccd642e2355465b6e76ee493cb3b4)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realityblurred.com%2Frealitytv%2Fimages%2F2014%2F08%2Fgeorge-takei.jpg&hash=26927c78d7090090173f08d9f438e90fb2ec6e33)
Oh my!
Check please!
Quote from: Gusington on November 21, 2015, 05:32:27 PM
^HAHAHAHA!!! That's the best thing to come of this whole horror.
That was pretty great, but I also liked the interview with the Third Brother -- the one who apparently had nothing to do with what the mastermind and the delivery man brothers were doing. He sounded sad and scared, and certainly must have felt horrible shame for his family, but the reporter asked him if he feared for his life (or something like that in French) and after a moment he answered (in French): "Perfect love overcomes fear. Perfect love overcomes fear."
That's part of a verse from a lesser-known Christian scripture 1 John 4:18. In other words, the third brother was secretly a Christian and communicating that in a way that Christians might recognize but which his hardcore Muslim family might not (yet might respect in principle).
The whole verse by the way, a little more literally than usual, is "Fear is not in love, but perfect love is casting out the fear, for the fear has {kolasis} punishment / discipline / chastening, and the one who is fearing is not perfected in the love."
C. S. Lewis used to say in regard to this verse, that plenty of things actually cast out fear: lust and greed and drunkenness cast out fear! But we shouldn't let anything less than perfect love cast out fear.
"I mean, I say this every time we've got one of these mass shootings; this just doesn't happen in other countries."
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/G5gfyy5gQeYNy/200.gif)
..a quote from 0bama from his news conference today in Paris...you know that city...in the country of France...that just witnessed a horrific mass shooting at the hands of ISIS that left 130 people dead.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/12/01/obama-still-peddling-the-mass-shootings-only-happen-in-the-us-narrative-n2087443
Quote from: Gusington on November 21, 2015, 05:32:27 PM
^HAHAHAHA!!! That's the best thing to come of this whole horror.
ROFL! :2funny:
Quote from: steve58 on December 01, 2015, 04:40:52 PM
"I mean, I say this every time we've got one of these mass shootings; this just doesn't happen in other countries."
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/G5gfyy5gQeYNy/200.gif)
..a quote from 0bama from his news conference today in Paris...you know that city...in the country of France...that just witnessed a horrific mass shooting at the hands of ISIS that left 130 people dead.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/12/01/obama-still-peddling-the-mass-shootings-only-happen-in-the-us-narrative-n2087443
Only white rednecks doing the shooting count. Republicans are a terrorist group and the biggest threat to the world is global warming. You gotta keep up with your reading, son!!!
There are reports the French are closing down 3 mosques in France. It is said that radical propaganda and weapons were found.
I'm not altogether surprised. The key is sorting the good from the bad. It won't be easy especially if many muslims are scandalised by IS, but at the same time feel their community is tainted by the acts, and that they all are being blamed. In that case getting to the bottom of things will be even more difficult if the community feels alienated and closes ranks. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case so far.
Quote from: Boggit on December 02, 2015, 05:25:20 PM
I'm not altogether surprised. The key is sorting the good from the bad. It won't be easy especially if many muslims are scandalised by IS, but at the same time feel their community is tainted by the acts, and that they all are being blamed. In that case getting to the bottom of things will be even more difficult if the community feels alienated and closes ranks. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case so far.
Start by deporting everyone that breaks the law. For some reason foreign muslims in europe dont get deported when they obviously dont want to obey our laws. Nope we have to protect them from what could happen in their homelands, even if they run around raping and killing here.
What do you do with Danish nationals breaking the law that are the children of immigrants? Deporting foreigners is in many respects a far easier issue to rationalise, and although human rights should form part of the equation, national security should carry a higher weighting in any issue of deportation for the protection of all in society. But what about home grown Danish muslims? Where would you deport them to?
Quote from: Boggit on December 09, 2015, 10:47:49 PM
What do you do with Danish nationals breaking the law that are the children of immigrants? Deporting foreigners is in many respects a far easier issue to rationalise, and although human rights should form part of the equation, national security should carry a higher weighting in any issue of deportation for the protection of all in society. But what about home grown Danish muslims? Where would you deport them to?
the solution is: the state has to change its 'citizenship by naturalization'-law.
Don't give the citizenship automatically at birth to children where one of the parents is an immigrant
After it was proved, that the kid was raised to the local western cultural standarts of the harboring country the grown up adult children get offered the citizenship at an age of 21, with the right of the state to revoke the citizenship for a long period of probation time (10 years).
So in case of criminal activity or support of terror organisations, citizenship can get revoke by a jury/judge and the person expellet.
(if the person is for example actually help fighting abroad in a crisis region, that can be done without the person to be present in the courtroom, the passport gets nullified and legally traveling back gets impossible for the "former citizen" )
Quote from: MikeGER on December 10, 2015, 03:36:32 AM
Quote from: Boggit on December 09, 2015, 10:47:49 PM
What do you do with Danish nationals breaking the law that are the children of immigrants? Deporting foreigners is in many respects a far easier issue to rationalise, and although human rights should form part of the equation, national security should carry a higher weighting in any issue of deportation for the protection of all in society. But what about home grown Danish muslims? Where would you deport them to?
the solution is: the state has to change its 'citizenship by naturalization'-law.
Don't give the citizenship automatically at birth to children where one of the parents is an immigrant
After it was proved, that the kid was raised to the local western cultural standarts of the harboring country the grown up adult children get offered the citizenship at an age of 21, with the right of the state to revoke the citizenship for a long period of probation time (10 years).
So in case of criminal activity or support of terror organisations, citizenship can get revoke by a jury/judge and the person expellet.
(if the person is for example actually help fighting abroad in a crisis region, that can be done without the person to be present in the courtroom, the passport gets nullified and legally traveling back gets impossible for the "former citizen" )
Before this there need to be a fundamental change in tolerance and understanding of the situation
A guy on the radio this morning stated pretty much what you have and was instantly shouted down as hitler, fascist and planting the seeds of holocaust - people will simply not accept these kind of views anymore, to the detriment of our security I agree, but they won't
The only 'politician' prepared to do or say this is trump and there is national outcry in the UK here to have him banned from the country - I'm all for a bit of mischief, id love the ban to go ahead and then for him to win the presidency
I can think of a few dozen countries in the world that love Islamic law.
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 10, 2015, 05:54:14 AM
people will simply not accept these kind of views anymore, to the detriment of our security I agree, but they won't
I'm not entirely convinced of that.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 10, 2015, 08:45:21 AM
Quote from: undercovergeek on December 10, 2015, 05:54:14 AM
people will simply not accept these kind of views anymore, to the detriment of our security I agree, but they won't
I'm not entirely convinced of that.
The problem is that it is unjust to blanket discriminate when really you just want to get to the bad guys. I have NO problem with you getting rid of the bad guys (if they want to live by the sword they can die from it too, as far as I am concerned), but I'd argue there are a lot of muslim people who don't have the same value set as those evil muslims (like Satanic State, Al Queerda, Loco Harem, or Al Kebab. ::) ;) ) What of Sufi muslims who suffer at the hands of these bastards, and are not part of the terrorist problem? Do we punish people who have done no crime, other than follow a religion (whatever we may think of it)?
Do we follow the advice of Abbott Arnaud Almalric at the massacre of Cathar Béziers in 1209?
"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." (Kill them all. Our Lord knows His own.)
I have no problem with deporting immigrants who have committed serious criminal acts, and forbidding their return permanently, but I think it is a very dangerous path we tread to condemn every person of a religion simply because we dislike aspects of their religion. Where does it stop?
Quote from: Boggit on December 11, 2015, 04:15:06 PM
The problem is that it is unjust to blanket discriminate when really you just want to get to the bad guys.
Oh, I agree. What I was meaning was, I think people are starting to lean more towards blanket tactics. You can see more and more of these kinds of posts on social media.
Damnit Boggit, now I want kebab!
Quote from: Boggit on December 11, 2015, 04:15:06 PM
I have no problem with deporting immigrants who have committed serious criminal acts, and forbidding their return permanently, but I think it is a very dangerous path we tread to condemn every person of a religion simply because we dislike aspects of their religion. Where does it stop?
there are several 'litmus tests' and 'indicators' you can 'sum up' in a (hidden) formula ...like those credit score company do with known data
- selfdeclaration , agitating, open sympathy for Islamists and their doings (but no crime, contact or membership in known organisations ...yet)
- are there demands from a person to change rules (at school, workplace, community) for nonbelievers to obey those rules too, out of political correctness / 'tolerance' ...like young girls and boys sports-training, school classes visit of a farm that also show piglets
- is the person offended by things in his close environmet, which is not his business at all, ...like coworker has a piggy-bank, or figurine, poster on his desk, or eats pork-sandwich at a shared table, or restaurants offerings of food in menu chart ...
- does the person goes Nazi on smallish heavy processed food-ingredients contained in only homeopathic doses
(like a person who is lifethreatening severe allergic on certain chemicals)
- irritated by cartoons more then a believer of other religions are about mocking theirs.
- does the person (suddenly) show off in public in traditional gear, or force his relatives into that gear in public
- does the person get upset close to battery in smalltalk discussions if sensitive topics about his religion/rules get touched
can the person 'tolerate' that someone has just a different opinion as much as the average Joe is able to
- unusual travel patterns and durations... uncommon for tourists or business people
Quote from: Boggit on December 09, 2015, 10:47:49 PM
What do you do with Danish nationals breaking the law that are the children of immigrants? Deporting foreigners is in many respects a far easier issue to rationalise, and although human rights should form part of the equation, national security should carry a higher weighting in any issue of deportation for the protection of all in society. But what about home grown Danish muslims? Where would you deport them to?
First of you dont automaticly get citizenship in Denmark if your parents are immigrants.
And if you have recieved a citizenship, alot of the people still have dual citizenship from their old homeland, so its really quite easy to just strip them of the Danish if they wanted.
But apart from that, where not only talking about people with Danish citizenship. We are talking about immigrants or in a lot of cases asylum seekers that breaks the law and for some reason gets to stay in our country. Heck if your seeking asyl you can go rape a child and it will have no influence on whether we grant you asylum or not. Its fucked up beyond comprehension here.
Quote from: jejo68 on December 12, 2015, 05:49:05 AM
We are talking about immigrants or in a lot of cases asylum seekers that breaks the law and for some reason gets to stay in our country. Heck if your seeking asyl you can go rape a child and it will have no influence on whether we grant you asylum or not. Its fucked up beyond comprehension here.
I'd have thought as a matter of common sense that serious crime like child rape should have a serious bearing on any asylum decision as a matter of self evident common sense. To ignore that sort of crime poses a serious risk to the safety of the host country's population, and to ignore it as an organ of state (the immigration service) is thus a hugely irresponsible state of affairs. :idiot2:
Quote from: Boggit on December 15, 2015, 09:44:21 PM
Quote from: jejo68 on December 12, 2015, 05:49:05 AM
We are talking about immigrants or in a lot of cases asylum seekers that breaks the law and for some reason gets to stay in our country. Heck if your seeking asyl you can go rape a child and it will have no influence on whether we grant you asylum or not. Its fucked up beyond comprehension here.
I'd have thought as a matter of common sense that serious crime like child rape should have a serious bearing on any asylum decision as a matter of self evident common sense. To ignore that sort of crime poses a serious risk to the safety of the host country's population, and to ignore it as an organ of state (the immigration service) is thus a hugely irresponsible state of affairs. :idiot2:
yeah well it gets even better, because even if they decide to evict the guy he may have to stay here on the grounds of humanitarian causes, since it apparently matters what could happen to him in his homecountry.
What happens to our children with guys like him going around, well fuckem seems to be the cry from all the high and mighty people with the right opinions.
@Jejo
So why don't Danish voters oppose these clowns?
Quote from: Boggit on December 25, 2015, 12:33:06 PM
@Jejo
So why don't Danish voters oppose these clowns?
We do. Problem is that the current government fx wanted to abolish the refugee convention if it stood in the way of keeping these f...... out of our country, but so far nada has happened.
First thing our glorious prime minister did when he came into office was to visit Her almightiness Angela Merkel, and then he became just another lapdog for the shitheads in the EU.
Well atleast the newest proposal by the government to confiscate any valuables from these immigrants so it can pay their expenses until the money runs out instead of us having to pay for them is getting wildly exaggerated in a lot of foreign press, so maybe that in itself will stop these leeches coming here. One can only hope
Caught one of the little SOBs... :knuppel2: :knuppel2: :knuppel2: :knuppel2: :knuppel2: :knuppel2: :knuppel2: :knuppel2: :knuppel2:
Quote
Salah Abdeslam, the main fugitive from Islamic extremist attacks in Paris in November, was arrested in Belgium's capital Friday after four months at large, two French police officials told The Associated Press.
They said he was arrested in a major police operation in the Brussels neighborhood of Molenbeek. Both officials are in contact with people involved in the operation and spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about an ongoing operation.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/03/18/fugitive-paris-attackers-prints-found-in-raided-belgium-apartment.html?intcmp=hpbt1
Good. Hopefully the CIA has a couple of black sites still up and running.
Yup, I hope there's a small country cottage where he's wired up to the mains and relatives can go give the dial a little twist - then set fire to the c***
I'll give you Allah ackbah you wanker - the last thing you're going to see is the pigs head I sow onto your face
The footage of the French and Belgian police capturing this animal is awesome...he looks like a rat being flushed out of a hole, which is really a disservice to rats.
I am super surprised they got him alive. Not only did he not commit suicide but those police/army soldiers didnt blow him away thinking that he might have had a suicide vest on.
On a side note my wife and kids are visiting my sister in Belgium whose house happens to be 1km away from all the excitement. When they were at the local park this afternoon I get a text from my wife asking me if it is normal in Europe for 30 police/soldiers all with dogs to be running through the park waving automatic rifles. Apparently my kids loved seeing the dogs and now want a Belgian Malinois to keep our old Swiss dog company.
Being in Belgium after being told to leave the park and go back to their house they went out and got Frites and Waffles instead and take photos....C'est ça, la différence!
Con
Quote from: Con on March 18, 2016, 06:16:05 PM
I am super surprised they got him alive. Not only did he not commit suicide but those police/army soldiers didnt blow him away thinking that he might have had a suicide vest on.
On a side note my wife and kids are visiting my sister in Belgium whose house happens to be 1km away from all the excitement. When they were at the local park this afternoon I get a text from my wife asking me if it is normal in Europe for 30 police/soldiers all with dogs to be running through the park waving automatic rifles. Apparently my kids loved seeing the dogs and now want a Belgian Malinois to keep our old Swiss dog company.
Being in Belgium after being told to leave the park and go back to their house they went out and got Frites and Waffles instead and take photos....C'est ça, la différence!
Con
Wow! Glad the family wasn't any closer!
Ahh you face more danger driving in Boston with the ass hat drivers here. I didnt dare tell her though that the airport in Brussels is probably going to be a nightmare on Sunday when they leave and she will be more pissed to find out she will be landing in a NorEaster expected to dump 8 to 12 inches of snow. I suspect that I will be blamed for this somehow ;)
Totally off topic but the Belgian Malanois dogs are absolutely awesome dogs...I wanted one the worst way but was overruled by the rest of the family :/
Swissys are great as well. Mine is really missing the boys he goes nuts when they talk to him on the iPhone. Right now he is snoring and farting away in the office with me. Dogs are awesome
Mine is playing with The Wife in front of the fireplace. He did fart and almost smoked me out of the house about an hour ago. If needed he would be great to flush out terrorist rats from their holes.
Quote from: Gusington on March 18, 2016, 06:37:54 PM
Totally off topic but the Belgian Malanois dogs are absolutely awesome dogs...I wanted one the worst way but was overruled by the rest of the family :/
my step brother is a k-9 officer and thats been his last 2 dogs.
Quote from: LongBlade on March 18, 2016, 02:32:10 PM
Good. Hopefully the CIA has a couple of black sites still up and running.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.cdn.moviepilot.de%2Ffiles%2F5e37d3552c915c032c724d13180da39fa85d898f16267fd88b83e8d17f33%2Fuser1367_1160662902.jpg&hash=e0964b454921600b39450df640fdfd1663936186)
....i heard through the channels those Syria back and for travelers had bad teeth, who need a little attention ^-^
Recreational dentistry!
Quote from: Gusington on March 18, 2016, 06:37:54 PM
Totally off topic but the Belgian Malanois dogs are absolutely awesome dogs...I wanted one the worst way
No accounting for taste. :o Personally I prefer women. And you complain about Star's bedroom antics....? :o ;)
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 18, 2016, 05:12:53 PM
Yup, I hope there's a small country cottage where he's wired up to the mains and relatives can go give the dial a little twist - then set fire to the c***
I'll give you Allah ackbah you wanker - the last thing you're going to see is the pigs head I sow onto your face
Milk the bastard for all he knows then throw him to 'Geek! :knuppel2: >:D
Quote from: Gusington on March 18, 2016, 05:36:28 PM
The footage of the French and Belgian police capturing this animal is awesome...he looks like a rat being flushed out of a hole, which is really a disservice to rats.
Gus is onto something here.... :2funny: O0
http://syrianperspective.com/2014/02/syrian-government-offers-adopt-a-terrorist-rat.html
He wanted to blow himself up in the football ground but changed his mind - AKA he bottled it - having convinced the rest how awesome it would be to get your virgins he couldn't do it - that needs exploiting and putting on all the jihadi websites they can find - we found your martyr warrior but he was too chicken shit to do it
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 20, 2016, 04:16:02 AM
He wanted to blow himself up in the football ground but changed his mind - AKA he bottled it - having convinced the rest how awesome it would be to get your virgins he couldn't do it - that needs exploiting and putting on all the jihadi websites they can find - we found your martyr warrior but he was too chicken shit to do it
Unfortunately that would just make the other bombed-up assswipes more likely to go through with it, not less likely. They would not want to be ridiculed in the same way. Sadly, the only way to make suicide bombers have second thoughts is to give them something positive- '
Don't flip the switch and we will be really nice if we catch you later'. I don't think the public is quite ready for that.
72 real virgins and a new life in a western country heading up the anti-jihadi cowards r us unit?
youre probably right were not ready for that :-\
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
Quote from: Boggit on March 20, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
There is a story floating around about some bad guys who kidnapped some Soviets back in the 1980s. Supposedly the KGB took some of their families hostage. Nasty things happened.
Long story short: nobody took any Soviet hostages after that.
Quote from: Boggit on March 20, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
You mean attempt to win the war on terror instead of emerging from every slaughter covered in blood and shaking our fist at the terrorists and saying 'you'll never defeat us' and inviting another round of unanswered attacks
Quote from: LongBlade on March 20, 2016, 10:38:27 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 20, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
There is a story floating around about some bad guys who kidnapped some Soviets back in the 1980s. Supposedly the KGB took some of their families hostage. Nasty things happened.
Long story short: nobody took any Soviet hostages after that.
I've been hearing that story for 30 years. There must be some truth to it.
Here's the gist of it
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-01-07/news/mn-13892_1_soviets
Now somewhere in Beirut there's 3 sheep, a goat, and a camel that are broken-hearted. :'(
Quote from: LongBlade on March 20, 2016, 10:38:27 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 20, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
There is a story floating around about some bad guys who kidnapped some Soviets back in the 1980s. Supposedly the KGB took some of their families hostage. Nasty things happened.
Long story short: nobody took any Soviet hostages after that.
Well, if it works... ::)
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 21, 2016, 03:59:57 AM
Quote from: Boggit on March 20, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
You mean attempt to win the war on terror instead of emerging from every slaughter covered in blood and shaking our fist at the terrorists and saying 'you'll never defeat us' and inviting another round of unanswered attacks
Er... yes... Why not try something new...? ::)
Quote from: Boggit on March 25, 2016, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 21, 2016, 03:59:57 AM
Quote from: Boggit on March 20, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
You mean attempt to win the war on terror instead of emerging from every slaughter covered in blood and shaking our fist at the terrorists and saying 'you'll never defeat us' and inviting another round of unanswered attacks
Er... yes... Why not try something new...? ::)
What ??
You mean the politicians should actually make a decision to do something instead of holding hands hoping for the best ?
Dont be silly
Quote from: jejo68 on March 26, 2016, 07:20:16 AM
Quote from: Boggit on March 25, 2016, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 21, 2016, 03:59:57 AM
Quote from: Boggit on March 20, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I take a lot of what "the Donald" has to say with a pinch of salt, but despite the fact that his suggestion is both immoral and illegal, going after the terrorist's family (who may be completely innocent) probably would make would be terrorists think twice about blowing themselves up as a matter of fact, given the importance of family in middle eastern culture.
You mean attempt to win the war on terror instead of emerging from every slaughter covered in blood and shaking our fist at the terrorists and saying 'you'll never defeat us' and inviting another round of unanswered attacks
Er... yes... Why not try something new...? ::)
What ??
You mean the politicians should actually make a decision to do something instead of holding hands hoping for the best ?
Dont be silly
Lol! :2funny:
All the same, better to do something decisive than a "Je suis" handwringing... :idiot2:
exactly - theres nothing like a nations flag over your FB profile picture to really shake those terrorists
Quote from: undercovergeek on March 27, 2016, 07:51:17 AM
exactly - theres nothing like a nations flag over your FB profile picture to really shake those terrorists
:2funny: