I've been watching some sim gameplay recently on YT, including DCS and Arma 3 and notice that players, probably reflecting real life, fly in very close formation. This has led to some very close calls. My question is: why do this? I understand that historically this was necessary for communication and supporting fire, but why do pilots continue to fly this way given the risk of collision?
My understanding is close formation is for air shows. In a combat situation you want some flexibility. Your wingman should stay close but you want him watching for bad guys, not concentrating on staying in close formation.
The story goes that during the Battle of Britain the British were way too concerned about maintaining a "vic" formation of three planes in close formation. The idea being they could concentrate firepower from multiple aircraft. Sounded like a good idea but it made the British formation very vulnerable since they were not watching their six. The Germans had the right idea. A looser formation of four aircraft with two sets of leader/wingman pairs worked much better. That has become the standard ever since.
That makes sense. I guess I'm thinking about more modern aircraft (jets/helos) where the need for concentrated firepower is less relevant. Perhaps some gamers are just having fun or are showing off? But then I see things like this where three aircraft appear to be flying pretty close to each other.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi76.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj26%2Fpzpjs%2FGrogheads%2Fjets_zpscitocriy.jpg&hash=db1c55d4a0785519fa6390f47ecaa5f18b3deb1e) (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/pzpjs/media/Grogheads/jets_zpscitocriy.jpg.html)
Admittedly these are bombers dropping dumb bombs, I think, where sudden movements are probably unlikely. But it still looks too close for comfort to me.
Quote from: IronX on December 11, 2015, 02:56:36 PM
That makes sense. I guess I'm thinking about more modern aircraft (jets/helos) where the need for concentrated firepower is less relevant. Perhaps some gamers are just having fun or are showing off? But then I see things like this where three aircraft appear to be flying pretty close to each other.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi76.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj26%2Fpzpjs%2FGrogheads%2Fjets_zpscitocriy.jpg&hash=db1c55d4a0785519fa6390f47ecaa5f18b3deb1e) (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/pzpjs/media/Grogheads/jets_zpscitocriy.jpg.html)
Admittedly these are bombers dropping dumb bombs, I think, where sudden movements are probably unlikely. But it still looks too close for comfort to me.
If those Tu-22s plan to launch their long-range cruise missiles at enemy warships, then it's best for them to have their missiles all arrive on-target at the same time. Flying & launching from formation is an easy way to sync their ToT, I imagine. You also don't generally want an attack package scattered out too wide because their paths are usually plotted through what's perceived as the weakest threat areas, which tend to end up being 'seams' between AD emplacements, regarding ground strike aircraft. So the more narrower the group, the further they are away from AD threats if the intel is good.
So, yes, bombers are probably a different story. Fighters do it for mutual support in combat situations, so they tend to loosen up when doing so, but stay close enough to clear each others' tails.
However, all aircraft attempting to stick together for any purpose may need to stay close when the visibility conditions are poor. That's one reason they train for close formation AFAIK. I read some pilots' harrowing tales about bad weather and extremely poor visibility being a very real & deadly problem when they lose sight of their wingman. Specifically one about the very first day of the air offensive during GWI when there was a big dark storm (& sandstorm) and there were so many flights of aircraft in the area, also stacked high in altitude over each other, that they were all terrified of straying off too far from their flight for fear of colliding with another in the pitch dark skies. And they could barely see their wingman's wingtip lights in such poor visibility.. had to be
real close to keep them in sight.
Quote from: Nefaro on December 11, 2015, 03:14:01 PM
However, all aircraft attempting to stick together for any purpose may need to stay close when the visibility conditions are poor. That's one reason they train for close formation AFAIK. I read some pilots' harrowing tales about bad weather and extremely poor visibility being a very real & deadly problem when they lose sight of their wingman. Specifically one about the very first day of the air offensive during GWI when there was a big dark storm (& sandstorm) and there were so many flights of aircraft in the area, also stacked high in altitude over each other, that they were all terrified of straying off too far from their flight for fear of colliding with another in the pitch dark skies. And they could barely see their wingman's wingtip lights in such poor visibility.. had to be real close to keep them in sight.
Yes, I can see how in this situation sticking very close to your wingman would be critical!
What prompted me to ask this question, although I've been thinking about it for a while, was after watching an Arma 3 video where three little birds were dropping off troops, one behind the other. As the second helo was about to touch down, the first suddenly flared back. It almost resulted in two helos crashing and burning along with all the troops on board. I'm guessing it was just the players being a little too cocky, but it made me wonder whether this kind of close flying reflected reality. I hope not! :-[
Quote from: IronX on December 11, 2015, 02:56:36 PM
That makes sense. I guess I'm thinking about more modern aircraft (jets/helos) where the need for concentrated firepower is less relevant. Perhaps some gamers are just having fun or are showing off? But then I see things like this where three aircraft appear to be flying pretty close to each other.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi76.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj26%2Fpzpjs%2FGrogheads%2Fjets_zpscitocriy.jpg&hash=db1c55d4a0785519fa6390f47ecaa5f18b3deb1e) (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/pzpjs/media/Grogheads/jets_zpscitocriy.jpg.html)
Admittedly these are bombers dropping dumb bombs, I think, where sudden movements are probably unlikely. But it still looks too close for comfort to me.
It's really sort of hard to say how close those bombers really are. They don't look "Blue Angels" sort of close.
There are a lot of good answers in this thread so far.
My limited understanding is that in "real life" for tactical jets, they don't typically fly in as close formation as you see in most flight sim videos. As someone alluded to, you want to have some space to maneuver, and also the farther out you are the better you can see threats to your wingman and vice versa.
On approach to an airfield or carrier, planes will fly very close to each other for air traffic control purposes, to maintain visual in poor weather, and because for an overhead visual approach you need to be tight in for proper sequencing after the break. Also it looks very cool. And it's a lot of fun. The only time I really flew formation was in flight school in T-34s. The first rule you learn is to "always look good" and that translates to "always look good over the boat." So from day 1 you learned to have your shit together when you flew around the base and that was especially true when you would come in as a flight for the break. Everyone looks up when a flight comes in and mentally grades how tight and properly spaced you are.
As for helos in ARMA 3, there might be a good reason for it, like if you're trying to get everyone into a tight LZ as quickly as possible, minimizing your exposure to ground fire by not loitering in the area. But mostly I think it's just because it's fun to do, and it looks really cool. That's why I do it anyway. 8)
For those bombers, it's probably easier to keep spacing in tight like that than spaced far out, because you can sense changes in heading, speed, etc. much more easily if you're close aboard...the relative motion is easier to perceive the tighter your formation is.
Thanks, Tooonces. I suspect you're spot on when it comes to the Arma scenario. Also, thanks for the insights into close formation flying. It's hard to get a proper understanding of these things from just watching vids, especially sims where it's fun to be a little reckless. ;)
People usually do it in PC sims for Toonces' reason - to look sharp. :coolsmiley:
I'd rather they be looking for hostile specks in the sky, instead of concentrating on how close they can stay to each others' wingtip. Recall flying in a somewhat close Finger-4 of ROF Albatrosses online, with some buddies. Spent much of the time watching the others and not keeping the head on a swivel to spot air & ground targets. Was more frustrating than enjoyable IMO.
I can believe it!
Quote from: Nefaro on December 11, 2015, 05:39:23 PM
I'd rather they be looking for hostile specks in the sky, instead of concentrating on how close they can stay to each others' wingtip. Recall flying in a somewhat close Finger-4 of ROF Albatrosses online, with some buddies. Spent much of the time watching the others and not keeping the head on a swivel to spot air & ground targets. Was more frustrating than enjoyable IMO.
Conversely, one of the things I've learned from RoF MP is that flying in a designated formation (not necessarily tight) means that you know where your friends are and thus it is easier to direct their attention to enemies you've spotted.
Quote from: IronX on December 11, 2015, 02:56:36 PM
That makes sense. I guess I'm thinking about more modern aircraft (jets/helos) where the need for concentrated firepower is less relevant. Perhaps some gamers are just having fun or are showing off? But then I see things like this where three aircraft appear to be flying pretty close to each other.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi76.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj26%2Fpzpjs%2FGrogheads%2Fjets_zpscitocriy.jpg&hash=db1c55d4a0785519fa6390f47ecaa5f18b3deb1e) (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/pzpjs/media/Grogheads/jets_zpscitocriy.jpg.html)
Admittedly these are bombers dropping dumb bombs, I think, where sudden movements are probably unlikely. But it still looks too close for comfort to me.
If those TU22Ms are about 140 feet long and the second plane appears to be about 2.5 times smaller then they should be about 350 feet apart, right?
Keep friendlies close so that you don't shoot them by mistake.
in the past when long range radar was not so sophisticated, a very tight formation made sense in a given tactical situation on the approach , because the human radar operator/or computer could not tell the number of planes and the type, intruding into his airspace
maybe that will work even today with stealth aircraft with the radar cross-section of a small bird ?
also for a surprises or black ops, a group could moke-up a commercial airliner echo, using a standard flight route, velocity, and flight level and fake transponder signal too
Good Posts here!
In a modern ops aircraft don't fly wing to wing.
Tactics revolve around mutual support and situational awareness over stealth.
A bigger spacing between aircraft results in much more coverage of airspace regarding safety and situational awareness.
Sim enthousiasts fly close formations because it looks great and teaches fine aircraft handling and multitasking skills.
Something that is paramount for the simmer due to the nature we have to cope with the limitations in situational awareness the software / hardware setup puts on us.
Quote from: Yskonyn on December 12, 2015, 09:45:49 AM
Good Posts here!
In a modern ops aircraft don't fly wing to wing.
Tactics revolve around mutual support and situational awareness over stealth.
A bigger spacing between aircraft results in much more coverage of airspace regarding safety and situational awareness.
Sim enthousiasts fly close formations because it looks great and teaches fine aircraft handling and multitasking skills.
Something that is paramount for the simmer due to the nature we have to cope with the limitations in situational awareness the software / hardware setup puts on us.
And collisions don't tend to kill you in flight sims.