So I picked up the D&D 5 ed. starter set as a possible system to force introduce table top RPGing to the kids, but I must say I'm a little underwhelmed with the product that WotC put out.
Paizo put out an awesome product for Pathfinder. There are some really nice hook items in there that can be carried on into an expanded game, especially the pawns. I'm just not sure what WotC was thinking other than the name brand would carry the product.
Just a quick look at how FFG package the Star Wars beginners games and they seem to have followed the Pathfinder model. If my LGS would have had Force and Destiny, I may have gotten that instead.
I get that they want to move toward a "theater of the mind" style RPG and away from the tactical model, but man it's the little things like a map and pawns that can help improve the initial appeal of the game and are just nice game play aids.
D&D 3.5 was a fairly complex game. I liked it, but it was the kind of game where you needed someone who already understood it to teach it to you.
WotC overcorrected by creating 4.0. They tried to create an MMO like World of Warcraft for the boardgame crowd. They made a decent game, but it didn't feel like D&D.
Now they've overcorrected again with 5.0. It's a much more streamlined game - maybe too much so. But it has its merits. First, it's easy for n00bs to pick up. Second, Level 1 is user-friendly to all classes. Third, it's streamlined enough that a DM can have six players at a table and the game still plays smoothly. I've seen as many as eight players around a table, but IMHO that's a bit too big.
In effect 5.0 almost doubles the functional party size. It's quite popular at my FLGS. There are easily half a dozen different games played each week, though in some cases the same DM/Players play a couple of times a week. And there are a couple of retro-games going on, too. Still, 5.0 is the most popular.
Yeah. I guess it really begs the question of the best way or system to use as an introduction to the hobby. I'm mostly likely over analyzing this as I am wont to do with most things, but it seems like there are some factors that need to be considered.
Popularity is important if for nothing else than the availability of product.
Starter/Beginners Sets are IMHO important because it may be the first real impression that a new player gets of not only the game setting and system, but RPGing in general.
This has some inherent dangers. A poor product can create a lasting bad impression.
System vs. Setting. To me this is not necessarily as clear cut as it seems. The setting seems like it should be the most important. If you are interested in a setting that is fantasy or Star Wars, then it would follow that the best introduction would be through a setting that is already liked. The rules can be a deterrent if they are poorly written, constructed, or hard to understand. And with a setting like Star Wars for example there is so much lore that is prone to be nit picked at. Fortunately for me there isn't a My Little Ponies RPG and my kids basis of Star Wars is limited to the Legos game if I chose to go that route.
It's an interesting dilemma I'd never really considered. I love RPGing from the moment I learned about it and D&D was basically the only game in town so it was an easy step to make. I know the kids will love RPGing, but the setting is a little more vague and availability of product is an issue. But I'm in complete agreement that the 3.5 ruleset is not a beginner friendly system.
if you can find the big black box D&D basic set from '93-'94, that's the one to get. the concepts are introduced through a series of programmed cards that roll out one concept at a time and walk you thru an initial adventure as you add each new concept.
^ cool concept.
Well I just stopped by the FLGS to see if they had any of the FFG Star Wars beginners sets. The didn't have the one I really wanted Force and Destiny, but was able to pick up Age of Rebellion. So I'll give that a once over this evening and decide whether to go with D&D or SW. I'm a little nervous about the complexity of rules but more so for SW than D&D. But I think SW might have more of an appeal. I'm hoping to put one on the table Friday, since there is no school.
I'll be posting some impressions on SW for sure.
Quote from: Bison on February 24, 2016, 10:37:53 AM
Just a quick look at how FFG package the Star Wars beginners games and they seem to have followed the Pathfinder model. If my LGS would have had Force and Destiny, I may have gotten that instead.
I get that they want to move toward a "theater of the mind" style RPG and away from the tactical model, but man it's the little things like a map and pawns that can help improve the initial appeal of the game and are just nice game play aids.
You can still do that with the more abstract style RPGs.
The creator of FFG's Star Wars RPG system has hit a sweet spot with his evolutionary & somewhat similar 2d20 system and their "Zones" style of tactical play. It has less rigidity, doing away with counting squares or measuring distances, but is still able to use minis & maps/props if you want to. Breaking it down to counting just a handful of zones, in order to calculate range, is just find and less fiddly.
I'd liken it, somewhat, to a more sophisticated
Assault On Doomrock style combat placement. In same zone = Close range. In same zone AND mini in contact = Melee range. One zone away = Short. Etc Etc. Ends up more like a board game map. Makes me want to shoehorn it's simplicity into others that still use hard numbers and long measurements.
I don't think either SW, or the 2d20 system (the Conan version being on KS right now), are the best RPG for absolute beginners on a cold start of their own. But I like the mix of crunch & abstraction, especially of the 2d20 stuff I've seen in Mutant Chronicles 3rd Ed. Looking forward to more settings using it; have always been a fence-sitter when it comes to RPGs in RE Howard's Conan setting though.
I do have Edge of the Empire and Force & Destiny core books. Cool narrative style system, but I've not ventured far into them. Mainly due to all the custom dice terminology. I can memorize all the mechanics to them, but all the terms for the results & effects just don't want to stick in my gray matter. Luckily that guy's newer system just uses plain 'ole d20 and d6 dice pools, yet still manages to retain some of the narrative style results. O0
Just in the twenty minutes I spent reading the adventure, it really looks like a great way to introduce people to the system. The encounters at broken down so that each one teaches a new mechanic. But man it's weird to read a rule set that uses the non-traditional stat names and unconventional dice. It should be cool. The oldest is excited to give this whole RPG thing a whirl. So now it's just reading both D&D and SW and deciding which one to start with.
Quote from: Bison on February 24, 2016, 07:06:07 PMSo now it's just reading both D&D and SW and deciding which one to start with.
go with whatever
he is interested in - it'll keep him more engaged :)
They want to fight Vader and meet Yoda so I already know the answer. It's my own selfish nostalgia that wants to rock some D&D.
And it's a well done package of SW goodies.
Quote from: Bison on February 24, 2016, 07:36:24 PM
And it's a well done package of SW goodies.
Embrace the Star Wars RPG goodness.
It really has some pretty cool stuff and the starter set is a fancy introduction. Despite the need to learn the custom dice stuff, I think the mechanics inspire more cinematic narrative than the simplistic & rigid old D&D stuff. And after the initiation it's not a big deal; the custom dice mechanics aren't too complicated.
The stats and skills aren't anything odd for an RPG, other than how they affect how many & what type of the special dice you roll to resolve them. Probably just better off calling them "purple 8s" and "blue 6s" anyway.
Well I know that if it goes well I'm on the hook for Force and Destiny for sure, because you need to for any sort of meaningful lightsabers and force adventures.
OK. I soloed through the introductory mission for SW Age of Rebellion and it was pretty sweet. The dice were a little confusing at first but once I learned the symbols and how to build dice pools it was actually pretty straight forward. There are some mechanics that will be challenging because unlike D&D dice rolls aren't just a pass/fail sort of deal. You can fail a check, but have an advantage on the dice or succeed and have a disadvantage. So this means the GM really needs to be on his feet to improvise and keep the story going. So for example, I had to remove a restraining bolt from a droid as a part of the encounter. The character succeeded in removing the restraining bolt, but had a 2 disadvantage results. My answer was that the droid was so overjoyed at having the restraining bolt removed that it started to shout and jump around for joy. How is this a disadvantage? Well the characters assignment is to sneak into an Imperial base and capture the commander before he can escape. This requires a high degree of stealth as to not alert the guards, so by jumping and shouting the droid might unintentionally alert a guard patrol in a near by hallway or room. Pretty cool mechanic, but you really have to be on your feet and I can see this really creating the possibility for some cinematic moments in the game. It's such a Star Wars mechanic. I just thought of the trash compactor. Han and Luke escape. Yah! But they are stuck in a trash compactor. Boo! Neat stuff.
The one other sort of odd mechanic that is a deviation from old school RPGs is XP. There is no real standard method of determining them. It's left up to the GM to determine how much and how to dole out. But they do give you some suggestions like 10 XP for 3 encounters and a successful mission and few bonus ones for outstanding RPing. Also you don't earn XP to level, but to purchase stats, skills, and proficiency points. So you do not have a 10th level jedi, but a jedi with particular stats, skills, and proficiency that the player chose to advance by spending their XP on. Interesting concept and basically insures that not every smuggler, soldier, or jedi is essentially the same. Pretty cool, but will take some getting used too.
Of course the game is made by Fantasy Flights so that means great product, but a lot of extras costing $$. I think if the family really digs it, then in the long run RPGing is a relatively cheap hobby. The 3 core rule books and 2 other beginner games would be in the area of I'd think $150 off of amazon. Damn that's depressing, but the possibility of developing a life long love of an awesome hobby would justify the cost. And of course not everything would have to be purchased at once. Although I would have to get Force and Destiny, because lightsabers and force powers.
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 01:02:24 AMAlso you don't earn XP to level, but to purchase stats, skills, and proficiency points.
{snip}
Interesting concept and basically insures that not every smuggler, soldier, or jedi is essentially the same. Pretty cool, but will take some getting used too.
uh.... Runequest (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/43637/runequest-1st-edition)? ;)
GURPS had a boxed set back in the day (2nd edition, I think). Amusingly enough, the Hercules and Xena boxed set wasn't half bad - the version of the d6 system used wasn't my cup of tea, but the contents of the box were nice.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 25, 2016, 06:29:49 AM
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 01:02:24 AMAlso you don't earn XP to level, but to purchase stats, skills, and proficiency points.
{snip}
Interesting concept and basically insures that not every smuggler, soldier, or jedi is essentially the same. Pretty cool, but will take some getting used too.
uh.... Runequest (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/43637/runequest-1st-edition)? ;)
I didn't know we were counting RPGs that came out of cereal boxes. ;D I'm not really familiar with Runequest but I thought you rolled to increase a skill and not purchase it with points. I very well could be wrong on this of course.
I guess my point is that the "typical" RPG mechanic for advancement is a leveling based one. I'm sure there are a good many that don't follow that rubric, but for me this is a new and unique departure from what I'm used to for character advancement.
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 10:54:11 AMI guess my point is that the "typical" RPG mechanic for advancement is a leveling based one. I'm sure there are a good many that don't follow that rubric, but for me this is a new and unique departure from what I'm used to for character advancement.
That mechanic was very much in vogue for D&D/T&T and its successors (especially TSR games like Indiana Jones), but the skill-building style of character development has been around a long time, too, going back to the mid-'70s with Runequest and Traveller and others. TSR finally went skill-based w/ Star Frontiers, too.
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 01:02:24 AM
OK. I soloed through the introductory mission for SW Age of Rebellion and it was pretty sweet. The dice were a little confusing at first but once I learned the symbols and how to build dice pools it was actually pretty straight forward. There are some mechanics that will be challenging because unlike D&D dice rolls aren't just a pass/fail sort of deal. You can fail a check, but have an advantage on the dice or succeed and have a disadvantage. So this means the GM really needs to be on his feet to improvise and keep the story going. So for example, I had to remove a restraining bolt from a droid as a part of the encounter. The character succeeded in removing the restraining bolt, but had a 2 disadvantage results. My answer was that the droid was so overjoyed at having the restraining bolt removed that it started to shout and jump around for joy. How is this a disadvantage? Well the characters assignment is to sneak into an Imperial base and capture the commander before he can escape. This requires a high degree of stealth as to not alert the guards, so by jumping and shouting the droid might unintentionally alert a guard patrol in a near by hallway or room. Pretty cool mechanic, but you really have to be on your feet and I can see this really creating the possibility for some cinematic moments in the game. It's such a Star Wars mechanic. I just thought of the trash compactor. Han and Luke escape. Yah! But they are stuck in a trash compactor. Boo! Neat stuff.
Yeah, cool stuff. That's what I was talking about when mentioning it inspiring some "cinematic narrative". O0 There are also some simple mechanic-oriented options for combat results. Such as regaining "fatigue" points or whatever they were called. So you don't always have to fret over it, either.
Quote
The one other sort of odd mechanic that is a deviation from old school RPGs is XP. There is no real standard method of determining them. It's left up to the GM to determine how much and how to dole out. But they do give you some suggestions like 10 XP for 3 encounters and a successful mission and few bonus ones for outstanding RPing. Also you don't earn XP to level, but to purchase stats, skills, and proficiency points. So you do not have a 10th level jedi, but a jedi with particular stats, skills, and proficiency that the player chose to advance by spending their XP on. Interesting concept and basically insures that not every smuggler, soldier, or jedi is essentially the same. Pretty cool, but will take some getting used too.
Of course the game is made by Fantasy Flights so that means great product, but a lot of extras costing $$. I think if the family really digs it, then in the long run RPGing is a relatively cheap hobby. The 3 core rule books and 2 other beginner games would be in the area of I'd think $150 off of amazon. Damn that's depressing, but the possibility of developing a life long love of an awesome hobby would justify the cost. And of course not everything would have to be purchased at once. Although I would have to get Force and Destiny, because lightsabers and force powers.
I always thought habitual tracking of all the little XP gains, and doling them out in such small bits, was just a pain in the ass. Many new RPGs have much more laid back methods which reduce or eliminate the constant accounting headache and base it more on achievement by overall scene, episode, or adventure. That way, the whole group progresses at the same rate, there is less bookkeeping all around, and the GM can more easily gauge & set the pace he wants. Only good things this way.
RPGs which have broken out of the old crusty & dusty "Class + Level" mold is a requirement for me nowadays. It may take more effort when ranking up, but being able to make choices on customization is a massive bonus over playing the cookie cutter stuff, like that in D&D (especially the older stuff). The Star Wars RPG has spec trees for each type, which is a bit unusual even for the more open ones, but I'd take it over the old stuff any day!
The only possible setback due to lack of designated XP on monsters, and relatively class-less systems, is how to best gauge the challenge posed by such monsters & NPC opponents for your group. Some of these games give some kind of simple Challenge Rating number, or equivalent measure for party level-ups. But not all do. Either way, it's something that is learned & tweaked while doing.
As for buying ALL the Star Wars core books (three right now), I don't think you really need to. You should obviously pick up the Force & Destiny one, if you plan on players being proper Force Users of some kind. But they all have much repetition. I'd only get more than one if you plan on playing the specificly different style of campaign. Edge Of The Empire for Han Solo-style scoundrel/smuggler type campaigns, and Age Of Rebellion for a more military or spy oriented one. Pretty much depends on which the player group wants. You can still cook up NPCs and enemies from the other stuff without too much work, using a single core book. For example, despite not having the Age Of Rebellion core book, you can still drop plenty "Imperial interference" on your group, including stormtroopers & such. The basics are in each core book, with some variety.
EDIT: And if you want a modern fantasy RPG with a large amount of classes, but with a far wider and more customized progression, I'd also recommend checking out the
Shadow Of The Demon Lord RPG. Great mix of old school fantasy RPG with a lot of the new style mechanics, yet still keeps it fairly easy to teach. It's rather dark.. rather Warhammer Fantasy-ish.
Keeps an old school feel despite using newer mechanics and flexibility. O0
One can only properly play a Star Wars world if you have a mix of smugglers/scoundrels, force users, and the bureaucracy players of the Empire and Republic! :D
I understand why they marketed the game this way from a financial perspective, but it's a bit of an annoyance too. I've read about the duplication, which doesn't bother me as much as the fact that unlike games like D&D where you have all inclusive folios of monsters you are left with a dispersion of people/minions, equipment, etc...across a wide array of products core books, card decks, pre-fab adventures, and campaign guides. This was done intentionally IMHO and it may prove to be annoying. You don't pick up the book of minions to find an appropriate foe, but have to look through a variety of sources if you want something specific. I'm sure in FFG fashion they'll milk you for some sort of consolidated product in the future, but for right now its about pumping out products. And yeah the scaling of an encounter is certainly going to be a challenge, but combat/skill checks are pretty simple and quick so those types of encounters are pretty easy to test run before hand. Anyway it's all good because the system is actually really mechanically simplistic once you learn the dice and how the symbols work. I'd actually like it if they sold a pawn kit of heros/villians and vehicles with some basic modular indoor/outdoor tile sets like 4th ed. D&D and Pathfinder do. Sure it's more money but it'd be worth it to me.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 25, 2016, 11:36:06 AM
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 10:54:11 AMI guess my point is that the "typical" RPG mechanic for advancement is a leveling based one. I'm sure there are a good many that don't follow that rubric, but for me this is a new and unique departure from what I'm used to for character advancement.
That mechanic was very much in vogue for D&D/T&T and its successors (especially TSR games like Indiana Jones), but the skill-building style of character development has been around a long time, too, going back to the mid-'70s with Runequest and Traveller and others. TSR finally went skill-based w/ Star Frontiers, too.
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing exactly. Skills and building them up have been around for a long time, but I'm talking more a complete absence of a power rank structure like levels. There is no real way to determine the strength of a character other than they have some certain highly specialized skills/proficiencies. Which I'm sure after playing for awhile you'll be able to pick out a strong character from a weaker one. The real challenge is going to be in gauging combat encounters.
That's exactly what the RuneQuest model was :)
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 01:22:41 PM
I'd actually like it if they sold a pawn kit of heros/villians and vehicles with some basic modular indoor/outdoor tile sets like 4th ed. D&D and Pathfinder do. Sure it's more money but it'd be worth it to me.
I actually have a wide assortment of the pre-painted minis from the old Star Wars Miniatures collectible game from WotC. Picked up some used lots & a some packs after Edge Of The Empire came out. Plus a couple packs of the modular map tiles for it, if I feel like using those instead of drawing on the large double-sided laminated map I have.
That old SW Minis stuff has been out of print for awhile. But there seemed to be quite a lot of it being sold/resold regularly a few years ago. I'm definitely not the only one who started picking them up for use with FFG's new RPG though.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 25, 2016, 01:52:17 PM
That's exactly what the RuneQuest model was :)
I picked up the recent & massive RQ 6th Edition hardback. For maximum nostalgia overdose. Dunno when I'll get around to delving it.
The pages, artwork, etc definitely look the same as the old editions. ;D
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 25, 2016, 01:52:17 PM
That's exactly what the RuneQuest model was :)
Don't you roll against your current skill level to see if you increase the skill? I seem to recall that being the mechanic, but I only played it once or twice several decades ago. D&D was a better game. :)
Quote from: Nefaro on February 25, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 01:22:41 PM
I'd actually like it if they sold a pawn kit of heros/villians and vehicles with some basic modular indoor/outdoor tile sets like 4th ed. D&D and Pathfinder do. Sure it's more money but it'd be worth it to me.
I actually have a wide assortment of the pre-painted minis from the old Star Wars Miniatures collectible game from WotC. Picked up some used lots & a some packs after Edge Of The Empire came out. Plus a couple packs of the modular map tiles for it, if I feel like using those instead of drawing on the large double-sided laminated map I have.
That old SW Minis stuff has been out of print for awhile. But there seemed to be quite a lot of it being sold/resold regularly a few years ago. I'm definitely not the only one who started picking them up for use with FFG's new RPG though.
In theory you could fork even more money over to the FFG coffers and pick up Imperial Assault minis too, but I'm happy with the pogs. I'd just like to be able to get more of them and some sci-fi tiles. I guess I could make some and just go with an erasable gridded mat, but man that sounds like work!
Quote from: Nefaro on February 25, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 01:22:41 PM
I'd actually like it if they sold a pawn kit of heros/villians and vehicles with some basic modular indoor/outdoor tile sets like 4th ed. D&D and Pathfinder do. Sure it's more money but it'd be worth it to me.
I actually have a wide assortment of the pre-painted minis from the old Star Wars Miniatures collectible game from WotC. Picked up some used lots & a some packs after Edge Of The Empire came out. Plus a couple packs of the modular map tiles for it, if I feel like using those instead of drawing on the large double-sided laminated map I have.
That old SW Minis stuff has been out of print for awhile. But there seemed to be quite a lot of it being sold/resold regularly a few years ago. I'm definitely not the only one who started picking them up for use with FFG's new RPG though.
You can pick up tons of those fairly cheap at most big-game conventions like, say , Origins
Damn it!
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 03:12:48 PM
Damn it!
Just sayin'
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-23NaIjBuCfQ%2FUOfF7Z-S4eI%2FAAAAAAAACt8%2FLmuMeJTSHck%2Fs1600%2Fwhistling-smiley.jpg&hash=2061d4ccde55e552efd75d800c19e53cc0e287e8)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 25, 2016, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on February 25, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
I actually have a wide assortment of the pre-painted minis from the old Star Wars Miniatures collectible game from WotC. Picked up some used lots & a some packs after Edge Of The Empire came out. Plus a couple packs of the modular map tiles for it, if I feel like using those instead of drawing on the large double-sided laminated map I have.
That old SW Minis stuff has been out of print for awhile. But there seemed to be quite a lot of it being sold/resold regularly a few years ago. I'm definitely not the only one who started picking them up for use with FFG's new RPG though.
You can pick up tons of those fairly cheap at most big-game conventions like, say , Origins
Yes, you can find assorted lots of the Commons & such for not too much. I scrounged a couple lots on Ebay quite awhile back, but you gotta dig for the deals.
Since it was a "collectible" minis game, there are a bunch of Common & Uncommons floating around which actual SWMinis players have too many of & don't need. I guess the minis game itself is still a bit popular.
I know CSI & others sell singles (and Noble Knight sells varied Lots of 25 or 50 IIRC) but I'm not sure how the prices are these days. Probably not cost efficient regarding singles but Lots may be worth searching out for deals. Saves a huge amount of time since they're pre-painted.
Bison, if you're really jonesin' for a bunch of singles, lemme know. One of my old profs is a nationally-ranked SW minis player and runs his own collectibles website. I can get him to hook you up with a deal. But I'll make you come to Origins to pick it up.
I'll have to look up the minis. I have no idea what they actually look like but if the game goes over well I'm sure I'll develop a compulsion to get some.
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 08:26:36 PM
I'll have to look up the minis. I have no idea what they actually look like but if the game goes over well I'm sure I'll develop a compulsion to get some.
You will. They're quite cool.
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 02:57:18 PM
Don't you roll against your current skill level to see if you increase the skill? I seem to recall that being the mechanic, but I only played it once or twice several decades ago.
That's the same basic mechanic HarnMaster uses for advancing skills.
Quote from: Double Deuce on February 26, 2016, 12:30:50 AM
Quote from: Bison on February 25, 2016, 02:57:18 PM
Don't you roll against your current skill level to see if you increase the skill? I seem to recall that being the mechanic, but I only played it once or twice several decades ago.
That's the same basic mechanic HarnMaster uses for advancing skills.
IIRC
Runequest has you make a check next to the skills you use. Then, when the leveling-up occurs, you have to roll higher than the skill (what would normally be a fail) in order to raise it some small random(?) bit. So the better your character gets at it, theoretically the less often they improve at it.
I think the latest edition has some extra rule so that it automatically goes up a bit if you miss repeated attempts to raise it. For some kind of insurance against strings of bad skill-up rolls. I also seem to recall there being a small amount of skills you could focus on when rolling for skill increases each time in order to get a bonus, but it may have been an optional rule or something.
Not sure, as I just skimmed some tidbits of 6th Edition - the full rulebook is massive! I think there have been various such tweaks in it (and over the years). Still not something for beginners!
My biggest complaint about Runequest, back in the day, was the Glorantha setting. The old set I owned didn't come with much specific setting info. But when I checked out their dedicated world, it seemed like an overdone and confusing mess. I like the idea of a Greco-Roman style fantasy setting, but the Glorantha stuff was just too alien at first glance.
I only decided to pick up the new one when I noticed it has a couple new setting options. One is a more recognizable Greco-Roman inspired high fantasy "sword and sandals" stuff. Another is an Arthurian Britain setting, based on a series of novels, with more historically feasible trappings (post-Roman & the Saxon Migrantvasion, no plate armor here!) and some interesting low-magic stuff. Will it ever get properly played? Dunno. But there is much reading and ideas to be gleaned.
I'm unfamiliar with the Harnmaster system, although I've heard of it. It's been around for awhile, too, right?
I enjoy reading how different systems are intended to run, their mechanics, and their fictional settings. So please enlighten me on the ones that do stuff differently than most. I'll try to keep these wall-of-text yammerings on RPG systems a bit less lengthy in the future.
I haven't heard of Harnmaster either, but the skill level up process in Runequest that you described is what I recall. So it isn't exactly like the process in FFG's SW where you earn XP that is spend on ability/skill/proficiencies stat increases.
It's actually pretty amazing just how many RPG systems are out there to be played. I'm so main stream man with my D&D, Pathfinder, and Star Wars! :)
I will say that looking through the FFG site at the SW RPG resources and just FFG in general the potential outlaying of money just makes me sick. FFG is really not a wallet friendly company. I'm not sure how anyone affords to play more than just one of their games or maybe just the basic/core product of a couple of them. Amazing really.
Quote from: Bison on February 26, 2016, 10:03:20 AM
I will say that looking through the FFG site at the SW RPG resources and just FFG in general the potential outlaying of money just makes me sick. FFG is really not a wallet friendly company. I'm not sure how anyone affords to play more than just one of their games or maybe just the basic/core product of a couple of them. Amazing really.
You're not telling me anything new!
I got into some
Descent 2nd Ed. awhile back. They have a constant stream of expansions for it. Which is great, having such variety to add but damn does the cost add up when you start doing so! They're doing the same thing with it's sister game
Imperial Assault, of course. Also with
Eldritch Horror.
Pretty much every popular game line they have gets hordes of expansions. They're not cheap either! In the case of Eldritch Horror, the regular box-sized expansions cost about as much as the original core game. :o
On the other hand.. I think their SW rpg core books have a lot to offer and cover many bases. The only additions I've seen were a bunch of ability card fluff (not needed) and a handful of adventure/supplements (also not really needed). Buying the custom dice (probably two sets of them, if you don't have a starter kit) is about the only extra I consider essential.
Also..
I just saw that FFG is now reprinting their new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, which uses the same core system as Star Wars. Albeit with it's own custom style of dice & associated symbols. Last I heard, they had stopped making the line. ???
Had been wanting to pick that up awhile back, when it was freshly out of print, but not sure now that I found Shadow of the Demon Lord, which has a similar feel and costs far less.
Yeah it why I'm got a couple of basic sets like D&D and SW, which ever one is successful at the table is the system I'll be sticking with for right now.
Quote from: Bison on February 26, 2016, 10:23:45 AM
Yeah it why I'm got a couple of basic sets like D&D and SW, which ever one is successful at the table is the system I'll be sticking with for right now.
I hope you get into the SW groove, and out of the typical old D&D "comfort zone".
There are quite a few newer RPG systems around, which are great evolutionary leaps over the old cookie cutter stuff. I know that people are wary of change, and tend to wanna stay in that old comfort zone where they don't have to learn anything new. But there is some great stuff to be had when you venture beyond. ^-^
It's cool that you're open to taking that step. Many aren't.
Quote from: Nefaro on February 26, 2016, 10:20:33 AM
Also..
I just saw that FFG is now reprinting their new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, which uses the same core system as Star Wars. Albeit with it's own custom style of dice & associated symbols. Last I heard, they had stopped making the line. ???
Had been wanting to pick that up awhile back, when it was freshly out of print, but not sure now that I found Shadow of the Demon Lord, which has a similar feel and costs far less.
Shadows of the Demon Lord gets Sigmar's blessing. FFG's version of WFRP does not. Do not be the heretic lest ye be judged...lacking. :knuppel2:
(I kid, I kid - play what thou will)
Dungeon World has to be the "new kid on the block," that really strikes my fancy, so bring on the new stuff, I say!
Well the oldest and I finished up the first part of the SW Age of Rebellion starter mission. It went well enough and the she really loved role playing and already wants to play more, which is cool for me. The one downside is just my own personal unfamiliarity with the rules and all of the stats/skills/talents. Not a huge issue but she is pretty quick to notice if I forget to pick up a dice or use a different skill then we used earlier. Kids really get these thing quicker than adults do I think. And not knowing the skills makes it hard to say use this skill/talent to check to do X. Anyway all in all it was a lot of fun.
We decided to take a break and give the Pathfinder starter adventure a go later on today. I know the rules are more complex but my familiarity will offset that a bit.
sounds cool :)
Absolutely awesome sauce, Bison!
Thanks! Getting ready to dive into the Pathfinder adventure in a little bit. Should be interesting it'll be the first time playing Pathfinder/D&D 3.5 for the kids and....THE WIFE! I have no idea how this is going to go but it'll be amusing for sure.
Wow! That's great, Bison! Is your wife just being a good sport? Or has she shown some interest?
I recommend you dunk $6 into this one
http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetailSearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_15925_A_InventoryID_E_2147952724
Not that you'll ever use the rules, but because the back half of the book is the BEST GM/DM guide I've ever seen. A ton of great ideas on building campaigns / worlds / adventures and running sessions. It's great advice and it's very practical.
It's hard to find b/c it's 25 years old, but it's cheap b/c there's been a lot of updates to the parts people care about - the game rules. I have no idea if the newer editions have the same sourcebook info in the back, but you check out the FLGS and thumb thru it and see.
Still for as cheap as this is, it's totally worth taking a flyer on it and seeing if the back of it works for you. And if not, bring it w/ you to Origins and I'll swap you for something.
I'll give it a look at the FLGS, but I doubt they carry anything like that there.
MD - The kid asked and told her how easy and fun RPG are to play and she said yes.
Good session of Pathfinder was had. The rules in the beginner box are not bad at all as far as complexity. Pazio did a great job of breaking them down and explaining them, as well as simplifying them for new and younger players to understand. In fact, I was struck by just how much the set up of the manuals reminded me of the old red box. And of course a good 50+ pawns for encounters is nice too. I need to read the D&D 5th ed rules again just to see how trimmed down certain aspects are compared to Pathfinder, but no one was overwhelmed at the table tonight. Just the typical new player type thing of not knowing they could or could not do something. What the different stats and skills do. Adding bonuses to the rolls, but not too bad. The starting adventure should give us at least another 2 or 3 sessions.
That's really awesome, Bison.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2016, 09:43:22 PM
I recommend you dunk $6 into this one
http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetailSearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_15925_A_InventoryID_E_2147952724
Not that you'll ever use the rules, but because the back half of the book is the BEST GM/DM guide I've ever seen. A ton of great ideas on building campaigns / worlds / adventures and running sessions. It's great advice and it's very practical.
For GM guide recommendations, I often see this
Mutants & Masterminds GM Guide listed as one of the best around, covering a wide range of aspects on the topic.
Amazon Link (http://www.amazon.com/Mutants-Masterminds-Guide-Steve-Kenson/dp/1934547425/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1456585122&sr=1-4&keywords=mutants+%26+masterminds)
I picked it up awhile back, with the latest M&M rules. It covers the whole range of GM'ing. Browsing through it, and reading some of the sections, it certainly looks to live up to the hype.
There are a number of good resources for GMing. It depends on what you need more help with for the game. General tips on how to run a session or plan for an encounter or different than tips for a campaign setting. I know that many people may suffer from Forgotten Realms fatigue, but when it first came out and really replaced Greyhawk as the main campaign setting the source books were really great idea builders. I never really delved into a full fledged Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms setting but borrowed an number of ideas and settings from them for my world.
But I think for the GM beginner, it's better to not get overly fixated on the specifics of the campaign world. Just general themes and a basic starting setting. The "home" town/village and surrounding area. There are hours of learning and fun to be had in a small geographic area that can be expanded in time.
Quote from: Bison on February 27, 2016, 10:16:35 AM
But I think for the GM beginner, it's better to not get overly fixated on the specifics of the campaign world. Just general themes and a basic starting setting. The "home" town/village and surrounding area. There are hours of learning and fun to be had in a small geographic area that can be expanded in time.
Definitely.
The GM guide I was referring to (and probably Brant's) is mostly tips, for both beginners and experienced types, regarding the basics. Not necessarily some huge world-building stuff, but advice like that we've seen in these recent threads. Albeit more in-depth and covering more sub-topics.
I think the handful of essential tips can be had for free, from veterans doing vids and columns on the 'net. But there are some good reads, which cover far more, if one wants more advice and help organizing & running them. :)
My few early forays into GM'ing, long ago, turned out to be mostly poor attempts. All except one, IIRC. It was due to not having some of the extremely useful advice I've read in recent years. The GM suggestions which came with GM guides, back in the old days, was generally crap from what I recall.
As I go through the 5e DMG, there is a lot more in the way of world building tips than the versions I am most familiar with. So much so, that I think I might actually be able to fake my way through this ;)
Yeah I'm probably nostalgic when I think about the 1st ed D&D, but in reality the information was always very general and vague on "how" to DM. I think somewhere along the way RPGs in general went the way of a novel. Where every detail about towns, wilderness, NPCs, and monsters were detailed in great depth and often a player would outpace a DM and then there would conflict between the facts of the details of the world. I at one point had a Waterdeep box that had like 12 3X3 maps or something like that to lay out for the entire city. It was very awesome, but incredibly impractical for most gaming sessions.
Indeed.
I've found the more generalized tips more useful. Such as all the recommendations on how to prepare for and keep the story flexible, different NPC personality styles & ways to run them, and other such tricks of the trade. Straight from GMs who are far more experienced than myself. A wide variety of suggestions & ideas on how to make your sessions fun. For everyone involved. O0
The old RPGs didn't really include GM sections dealing with stuff of that nature. Some still don't. They were pretty sterile in that sense.
I've been impressed with how tabletop gaming has generally evolved for the better in the past decade or less, compared to my younger days. Not only physical quality, but the ideas & writing on the subject. 8)
Get Aftermath! or Freedom Fighters from FGU. Those are nice, light RPGs... :buck2:
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 28, 2016, 12:53:50 AM
Get Aftermath! or Freedom Fighters from FGU. Those are nice, light RPGs... :buck2:
:o
Is
Aftermath! still around? Or is it just old out-of-print stuff still floating about?
Vaguely recall that from my youth. Seemed a bit of a mess, but was still an intriguing read. Probably because there wasn't much like it back then.
Ill be all in learning SW and Pathfinder and D&D 5 Ed. Even if those games were any good I've got more game rules learning than I can handle.
I was able to physically see all three SW core books today. Besides the $60 price each I was frankly a little annoyed after the fact. I get the sales model but they needed to make a players hand book and game master guides with the guides for the different settings. I really have a hate and less hate feelings toward fantasy flight games.
Quote from: Nefaro on February 28, 2016, 11:52:56 AM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 28, 2016, 12:53:50 AM
Get Aftermath! or Freedom Fighters from FGU. Those are nice, light RPGs... :buck2:
Is Aftermath! still around? Or is it just old out-of-print stuff still floating about?
Welp...you cats are in luck!
http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/shop/ (http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/shop/) or
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/12/Fantasy-Games-Unlimited/subcategory/70_97/Aftermath (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/12/Fantasy-Games-Unlimited/subcategory/70_97/Aftermath)
And if you are feeling particularly masochistic, may I suggest
Living Steel or any of the other games by the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
Quote from: Nefaro on February 28, 2016, 11:52:56 AM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 28, 2016, 12:53:50 AM
Get Aftermath! or Freedom Fighters from FGU. Those are nice, light RPGs... :buck2:
:o
Is Aftermath! still around? Or is it just old out-of-print stuff still floating about?
Vaguely recall that from my youth. Seemed a bit of a mess, but was still an intriguing read. Probably because there wasn't much like it back then.
Aftermath had absurdly complex combat rules with certain stats being of far more value than others. Freedom Fighters had the most over the top character creation process I've ever seen. It took 3-4 hours just to create a single character. You had to actually go through each year of your character's adult life prior to the start of play and determine how much money they'd earned, what they'd bought, how well the purchased stuff stood up over time, etc. It was like getting audited by the tax nazis.
Quote from: Dammit Carl! on February 29, 2016, 07:26:12 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on February 28, 2016, 11:52:56 AM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 28, 2016, 12:53:50 AM
Get Aftermath! or Freedom Fighters from FGU. Those are nice, light RPGs... :buck2:
Is Aftermath! still around? Or is it just old out-of-print stuff still floating about?
Welp...you cats are in luck!
http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/shop/ (http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/shop/) or
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/12/Fantasy-Games-Unlimited/subcategory/70_97/Aftermath (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/12/Fantasy-Games-Unlimited/subcategory/70_97/Aftermath)
And if you are feeling particularly masochistic, may I suggest Living Steel or any of the other games by the now defunct Leading Edge Games.
Heh!
I was just curious if someone had still been messing with it. But, no, I'm not that masochistic.
I've just been informed by my youngest daughter that her Star Wars character WILL have a My Little Pony sidekick. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Although she did say the wife could be a Wookie :D the wife was not as impressed needless to say...
Has she been reading Darths & Droids (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html)?
That's pretty funny. I need to read more.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on April 09, 2016, 06:44:34 PM
Has she been reading Darths & Droids (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html)?
...and bookmarked! ;D
Quote from: Bison on April 09, 2016, 04:54:55 PM
I've just been informed by my youngest daughter that her Star Wars character WILL have a My Little Pony sidekick. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. Although she did say the wife could be a Wookie :D the wife was not as impressed needless to say...
It's time for My Little Wookie.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/30/f8/d1/30f8d1f8b86d44032e8ee4f287bc052c.jpg)
Guys - I posted Darths & Droids like 2 years ago... sheesh...
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=12282
and here's Pratt mentioning it too
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=12299
RPGing with a 6 year old is teaching me the virtues of patience that I never knew I had. I will say that the dice pools of SW are a very friendly way to game with younger kids however. Since the dice rolls are generally not limited to the succeed/fail type associated with most RPGs like D&D, there is a lot of room for a mixed result where they can still benefit from a decision even though the result may not be a success.
I'm still down a little bit on the limits of the beginners box only because it really doesn't leave any option for creating a character of your own. You can improve the pregen characters, but it'd be a challenge to create a own new character since there are no race or class skill trees included in the basic rules.
What's the difference between the 3 Star Wars RPGs available from FFG? I see that they have a few copies of the Rebellion rulebook in the discount bin at one of my FLGS for $7.99.
Edge of Empire - Focuses on the scum and villainy; bounty hunters, smugglers, hired guns, etc
Age of Rebellion - Focuses on the military/political conflict between the rebel alliance and the empire; pilots, soldiers, ambassadors
Force and Destiny - Focuses on Jedi and the force
Personally I find the breakdown a little annoying since most SW campaigns are going to play with all three aspects for a complete story. But it's the marketing strategy FFG has taken to make more product, so there's no real way around it. The biggest problem is that the three core rulebooks are about 85% the same. However you have to have all three if you want to make the various classes and have a full compliment of races.