Is tabletop gaming pricing prohibitive to attracting new or younger audiences? I think Fantasy Flight Games and a few others are examples of companies whose business model is one that may be prohibitive to attracting potential gamers into their systems. I know for example a few people who'd like to try a game like Star Wars X-Wing, but that costs just stop them from even making an initial purchase. Not because the basic box is overly expensive, but if you want to expand your collection it gets costly very, very quickly. And it seems like this true for many other companies too. Thoughts?
Only from certain companies and/or product lines.
I mean - if someone plans on picking up the whole Imperial Assault line, even in this early stage, it will already cost them hundreds of dollars for the full range.
But there are quite a few affordable, yet fun, options.
As an example, I just saw the latest printing of last year's solitaire game Hostage Negotiator, which has been pretty popular and received many good reviews. The core game is $23 at CSI.
It's all about comparison.
You can find many high quality tabletop games, with impressive components, for $50 or under. Compare that to all the A-list video games from large publishers coming out, which cost $50 to $60. And that's for a digital download - no physical product at all! If anything those digital game sales, which have no extra production costs or overhead, are priced very high compared to what you get for a modern designer tabletop.
Well you'd have to know about your options too. An Xbox/PS4 has shelf space at Walmart and most computer gamers use Steam and the sales, but non-Monopoly style tabletop gaming isn't the same. Sure Target carries a few Euros, but otherwise there's nothing. That's the attracting new customers part. I'd think someone would take a risk on Imperial Assault if they can manage to get over the $100 price tag of the starting box only because they love Star Wars. Call it Space Soldiers or something unfamiliar and I don't think it has the same appeal.
Quote from: Bison on February 26, 2016, 10:35:30 AM
Well you'd have to know about your options too. An Xbox/PS4 has shelf space at Walmart and most computer gamers use Steam and the sales, but non-Monopoly style tabletop gaming isn't the same. Sure Target carries a few Euros, but otherwise there's nothing. That's the attracting new customers part. I'd think someone would take a risk on Imperial Assault if they can manage to get over the $100 price tag of the starting box only because they love Star Wars. Call it Space Soldiers or something unfamiliar and I don't think it has the same appeal.
Well.. that's a different can of worms, regarding marketing and visibility as opposed to simply cost.
Although tabletop games have obviously been on the up over the past few years, they'll never surpass the simple ease of use inherent with digital gaming. Many people plain hate reading instructions for anything, much less manuals. So the majority of people, even if they were up for getting into gaming, still just want others to teach them how instead of doing it on their own.
The Star Wars PocketModel TCG was pretty cool and relatively inexpensive. I have a good assortment of them stashed away and need to break them out for the kids. It's a perfect intro level game and it's too bad it was discontinued.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_PocketModel_TCG
I have a lot of the Pirates PocketModel stuff too. Again, a great entry level game that wasn't too expensive.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10653/pirates-spanish-main (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10653/pirates-spanish-main)
I think even if someone wanders into a game store and is unfamiliar with board gaming the price is prohibitive, because they aren't familiar with the game or perhaps even tabletop gaming the price is then a detractor. It's $60 for a box and cardboard essentially. Kid wants X game. Parent goes to store if X game is even avalable and is $60 for a book or a box. I'd bet there is a WHOA! factor that is there for a non-gamer that is prohibitive, unless it's a birthday or Christmas type gift. I think that's why MtG and Pokemon are successful, because an occasional $3 or $4 purchase at Walmart is not an issue comparatively.
I don't think a lot of non-gamer parents wander into game stores. It's still too niche of a market. People who go to game stores are looking for specific products and are likely knowledgeable about the costs.
I don't think pricing is the gateway to entry for table top gaming. It's a niche hobby that doesn't the broad appeal of other hobbies.
Having any board games on the shelves of a mass market retailer like Target is something of a miracle.
Quote from: mirth on February 26, 2016, 11:13:34 AMHaving any board games on the shelves of a mass market retailer like Target is something of a miracle.
The average board game
purchaser at Target/Kmart/Walmart is a 40-60yo woman buying it as a gift.
Those folks only know the "classics" - Monopoly, Scrabble, etc - and are buying something for a nephew or neighbor who "likes games" and they have no understanding of anything beyond those basics.
It's nice that TTR and Catan are available at Target, but the average
purchaser at those stores doesn't know what they are.
Additionally, $60 on a board game vs $60 on an Xbox game: which one gets you more hours of playtime? And with who? The answer will vary from person to person, but it's a valid comparison that more people should make.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2016, 11:29:57 AM
It's nice that TTR and Catan are available at Target, but the average purchaser at those stores doesn't know what they are.
Oh, I agree.
Quote from: mirth on February 26, 2016, 11:32:32 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2016, 11:29:57 AM
It's nice that TTR and Catan are available at Target, but the average purchaser at those stores doesn't know what they are.
Oh, I agree.
I know when I bought TTR that I was comfortable with the price, but the wife was like WTF? She grew up with Monopoly and Risk type games. Mass produced and cheap. She initially didn't understand that there was good value to the game. To her there is was no difference except the price. Cheaper is better in that case.
I think of the old D&D red box. It was not only a more affordable, but accessible option. It was designed for a younger audience and allowed you to grow into the hobby. I think these days games are more designed with a customer base that already has a fairly decent disposable income level and is older.
I'd hazard a guess that many tabletop gamers moved to video games because of access of playability. You don't need a group to play a computer RPG or local group to play an MMO. And if it's about the hours then for most people computer is going to be better even if the costs are relatively the same.
The most popular Fantasy Flight Games that I see played at community gaming groups include Elder Signs, Hey That's My Fish and Citidels. These titles cost $34.95, $12.95 and $24.95. Those prices are not cost prohibitive.
I checked the collections of 4 avid gamers that I know locally, they number 356;137;131;332. I think it's fair to generalize and say that cost isn't a big issue with those who are indoctrinated and have some disposable income.
IMO the OP's point is most applicable to miniatures, which all know are money sinks. I can't imagine there are many gaming virgins out there that pop their cherry on miniatures...or expensive niche wargames for that matter. Although I must admit noticing a trend in the ASL community where a significant percentage of new players seem compelled to buy up every piece of ASL gear that can be had before getting serious about playing.
I'm sure that many people buy a base game like Elder Signs and don't pick up the expansions and have a lot of fun with it. I just think that the gaming companies have moved their target audience toward people with disposable incomes, which is understandable but in some ways it's gotten out of hand. $15-$100 for a mini in X-Wing is not accessible to a wide audience, but it's a huge name and has a good following but they exclude the younger audience. If they had packaged 10 pawn/pog ships in the starter kit and sold the actual minis on the side, it would have made the game more affordable and expansive for a beginner and still many will by the actual mini to replace the pawn eventually.
It's to the point for some games to be in 100's of dollars just to play with the base game and a few expansions. It's not really a grip so much as I wonder if it doesn't perpetuate the niche of the industry even more so by excluding many would play and buy but the cost is too much to even start playing knowing that you need to drop another $100 more if you want a more full experience. And yes minis are a money sink for sure.
This hobby is ridiculously expensive. I got back into tabletop gaming a little over a year ago and I've already spent more now than I have on PC games in the last 5 years combined. Kind of weird when you think about it as board games are far more inconvenient. Not only do you have to worry about all the components and rules, you also have to try to find an willing opponent and then find a time and place to play which usually entails driving somewhere. Bloody irritating, especially when they decide they don't care for the game and want to play again.
I found that to be the case with a number of games that I'd like to play as I tend to be the groggiest of the group at any of the 4 local game stores I frequent. I bought Wing Leader for $70 and have only played the physical game twice. I've got a lot more play out of it against Barthheart on VASSAL than I have through the physical copy. Same with Bomber Command. I've played the physical game maybe half a dozen times. The hobby can definitely be frustrating at times.
^ That's true too.
I know it can be a bitter pill to swallow when the desire is strong to see the hardware on the table, and to push towering stacks of pretty counters you so meticulously punched and trimmed...but VASSAL is the solution to most of the issues that plague wargamers who want to play games with opponents. Once you turn the corner the opportunities increase exponentially <my experience> and the many benefits (no travel, reduced setup, zero table space requirements, all players have access to the game setup in between sessions) will help you to forget about all that cardboard you left on the shelf. Besides, you still require the rules/playbook/CRT from the physical game in order to play online.
I need to give Vassal an honest go, but it really defeats the purpose of tabletop gaming for me. Which is not only the social aspect, but getting away from electronics and technology.
I'm of the same opinion. If I'm going to stay at home and play on the PC, why not take advantage of all that computing power and play a game that handles all the rules for me? The joy of table top gaming for me is the social aspect as well as the tactile one. I enjoy moving my little miniatures around the map.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 27, 2016, 08:20:00 PM
I'm of the same opinion. If I'm going to stay at home and play on the PC, why not take advantage of all that computing power and play a game that handles all the rules for me? The joy of table top gaming for me is the social aspect as well as the tactile one. I enjoy moving my little miniatures around the map.
Miniature games are exceptionally pricey. Especially when one gets hooked on certain lines, huh SDR? ^-^
I've tried to avoid going all-in on minis games, and have avoided most of them in the first place. Too rich for my blood. I may sell one or two of the starter Mini game sets I own because I don't plan on venturing down that bottomless rabbit hole. :-\
I do, however, enjoy the occasional solitaire game. Something different & relaxing. I've spent more time playing some of those than the majority of PC games I've picked up in recent years. The costs come out about the same for me, overall, in the end. But that is for tabletop games consisting of just a core set and maybe a small expansion or two. Not a large range of expensive Minis and accessories, most of which are sold separately™.
I think one thing is that you really have to buy both financially and mentally into a single system maybe two if you have the time and money resources. Unfortunately that really means that you almost have to buy into the systems that are played at the LFGS. Otherwise you might have $400 of Flames of War but no one to play with so you might be better off going with Warhammer just because there is a local player base playing the system even though you don't really prefer the system.
Quote from: Rekim on February 27, 2016, 07:50:55 PM
I know it can be a bitter pill to swallow when the desire is strong to see the hardware on the table, and to push towering stacks of pretty counters you so meticulously punched and trimmed...but VASSAL is the solution to most of the issues that plague wargamers who want to play games with opponents. Once you turn the corner the opportunities increase exponentially <my experience> and the many benefits (no travel, reduced setup, zero table space requirements, all players have access to the game setup in between sessions) will help you to forget about all that cardboard you left on the shelf. Besides, you still require the rules/playbook/CRT from the physical game in order to play online.
Preach it, brother. Once in a while a wargamer listens, and after trying Vassal kicks himself for not doing it sooner. You can't reach everyone but he's the one you're doing it for. O:-)
Quote from: Nefaro on February 27, 2016, 08:46:20 PM
Miniature games are exceptionally pricey. Especially when one gets hooked on certain lines, huh SDR? ^-^
No idea what you're talking about. I can quit anytime... Really... I mean, I haven't pre-ordered any wave 8 X-Wing stuff yet so that's showing restraint, right?
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 27, 2016, 11:55:16 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on February 27, 2016, 08:46:20 PM
Miniature games are exceptionally pricey. Especially when one gets hooked on certain lines, huh SDR? ^-^
No idea what you're talking about. I can quit anytime... Really... I mean, I haven't pre-ordered any wave 8 X-Wing stuff yet so that's showing restraint, right?
You have time to break still...
Actually I'm kind of off X-Wing right now. Most of the guys around here only want to play 100pt tournament rules and it gets kind of boring seeing the same builds each time.
I'd rather play Armada than X-Wing but after wave II for that was released, much of the interest here dried up and hardly anyone wants to play anymore.
Thankfully Sails of Glory is holding my attention fully these days. Having an absolute blast every time I play even though I seem to have the worst luck (my powder magazines seem to explode a lot).
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 27, 2016, 11:55:16 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on February 27, 2016, 08:46:20 PM
Miniature games are exceptionally pricey. Especially when one gets hooked on certain lines, huh SDR? ^-^
No idea what you're talking about. I can quit anytime... Really... I mean, I haven't pre-ordered any wave 8 X-Wing stuff yet so that's showing restraint, right?
Restraint OR.... getting sucked into a couple other product lines? >:D
I love the look of age of sails but it's one of those games for me that would sit unplayed due to lack of opponents and I already have a too many of those games already. :(
I what is probably typical for me, I seem to have things completely backwards. Most of my computer gaming is PBEM and 100% of my boardgaming is solo. There is just no one around me that wants to play the kind of board games I like, and there is no way I'm playing X-Wing, MTG, or WH40K. I'm not saying those are bad games, they just are of no interest to me at all.
Ultimately I really should just start playing Vassal. All of my regular opponents are much more interested in digital PBEM, however. All the Vassal gaming I've done has again, been solo.
As to the topic at hand, yes, this is an expensive hobby. Nearly all of the board games I buy are more expensive than my computer games, often 2X as expensive. I can pick up a Tiller title for $39.99, but almost anything I buy from GMT or MMP will be north of $60, and often $80 or more. It usually has a lot fewer scenarios, too.
The appeal for me is that board games first, often cover battles or conflicts that computer games won't. Second, a twenty year-old board game is still very playable if it's been taken care of, while very often a ten year old computer game is hopelessly antiquated, and despite fond memories, really isn't as good as a new game.
I'm glad there seems to have been a resurgence in the hobby but for me, it still has exactly the same issues as it did thirty years ago: it's expensive and it's very difficult to find an opponent. I can see why it can be hard to attract new blood to the hobby.
Just pop over with a couple of those GMT 30yw games. I'll put kettle on :-)
Quote from: bob48 on February 28, 2016, 02:10:41 PM
Just pop over with a couple of those GMT 30yw games. I'll put kettle on :-)
Honestly, we just need to fire up Vassal on the weekends and play! You've hit on the issue exactly - too many of my opponents live at least a ten hour plane flight away! My nearest regular gaming buddy is Jim, and he and I would both need to drive to Chicago to meet about halfway.
In 1960, when my folks caved and bought me Avalon Hill's Gettysburg, the AH games were $7.00. I suppose with inflation that would be around $50 today. And until SPI got rolling, you only had one wargame a year from AH.
Now miniatures, you could get a box of about fifty Airfix troops for fifty cents.
At a quarter a lawn, you could easily build up pretty sizable armies. And there were tons of articles on modifying Airfix ACW into Napoleonics. And you needed cheap soldiers because everyone did one-to-twenty Napoleonics, or one to one WWII.
Problems, problems. The real issue, as then, was finding an opponent. We didn't call it solo or solitaire gaming, it was right hand versus the left.
Oh yeah, I know you're right, Doug, and we can sort out times that suit us both. Being fair, we have had a quick go with both BoB and Der Weltkrieg on Vassal, so we have proved that it can be done.
Quote from: besilarius on February 28, 2016, 03:28:17 PM
In 1960, when my folks caved and bought me Avalon Hill's Gettysburg, the AH games were $7.00. I suppose with inflation that would be around $50 today. And until SPI got rolling, you only had one wargame a year from AH.
Now miniatures, you could get a box of about fifty Airfix troops for fifty cents.
At a quarter a lawn, you could easily build up pretty sizable armies. And there were tons of articles on modifying Airfix ACW into Napoleonics. And you needed cheap soldiers because everyone did one-to-twenty Napoleonics, or one to one WWII.
Problems, problems. The real issue, as then, was finding an opponent. We didn't call it solo or solitaire gaming, it was right hand versus the left.
Arfix figs and vehicles made it possible to play decent games without too much cost. The Airfix mag had lots of conversion articles for the (then) limited range of stuff available. brings back good memories.
And you are so right about the 'left-hand-against-the right-hand' gaming. I've grown so used to playing that way over the years that I don't even think about it. You play the best you can for both sides. What you miss is the ability to fool or be fooled by your opponent - devise and execute, or be the victim of, a cunning plan........
I've been in 3 LGS this weekend. Only non-MtG game being played was 40K. I saw exactly 1 game that isn't your typical euro style game. GMT's Twilight Struggle and the shop owner knew nothing about it or GMT. I was a game someone had him order and never went back to pick up.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on February 27, 2016, 02:02:40 AM
This hobby is ridiculously expensive. I got back into tabletop gaming a little over a year ago and I've already spent more now than I have on PC games in the last 5 years combined. Kind of weird when you think about it as board games are far more inconvenient. Not only do you have to worry about all the components and rules, you also have to try to find an willing opponent and then find a time and place to play which usually entails driving somewhere. Bloody irritating, especially when they decide they don't care for the game and want to play again.
I found that to be the case with a number of games that I'd like to play as I tend to be the groggiest of the group at any of the 4 local game stores I frequent. I bought Wing Leader for $70 and have only played the physical game twice. I've got a lot more play out of it against Barthheart on VASSAL than I have through the physical copy. Same with Bomber Command. I've played the physical game maybe half a dozen times. The hobby can definitely be frustrating at times.
I have to admit that while I love physical board games (wargames to be more precise) I hate spending hours punching out counters, reading the rules, then setting up the game. Vassal sure does take a big chunk out of the setup time and without the corresponding Vassal module I probably would not buy a wargame. Life as an adult filled with all of it's responsibilities is quite different from life as a teen living in your parents basement and without much if any real responsibilities. Hence Vassal is the way to go for me if I have a board wargame itch to scratch.
[Please note that I won't play a Vassal module unless I own the physical copy of the game.] ;)
^ You forgot to include the time it takes to clip the corners. :P
>:(
I would use Vassal to game more if it didn't take so long for me to go in and edit all of the counter graphics so that the corners looked clipped. ;D
Quote from: panzerde on February 29, 2016, 09:06:57 AM
I would use Vassal to game more if it didn't take so long for me to go in and edit all of the counter graphics so that the corners looked clipped. ;D
Don't laugh, but I actually thought of doing this to the new series of LnLP Tactical series modules I'm doing, to match the actual game pieces... but it's a colossal PITA and then came to my senses.
With more and more games being laser and die cut to have rounded corners, the entire clipping debate may be a moot point soon. Then I expect that there will actually be people complaining if the Vassal modules don't have rounded corners!
Quote from: panzerde on February 29, 2016, 09:35:55 AM
With more and more games being laser and die cut to have rounded corners, the entire clipping debate may be a moot point soon.
Some people will then spend time and money squaring the counters. :D
Quote from: mirth on February 29, 2016, 09:37:25 AM
Quote from: panzerde on February 29, 2016, 09:35:55 AM
With more and more games being laser and die cut to have rounded corners, the entire clipping debate may be a moot point soon.
Some people will then spend time and money squaring the counters. :D
O0 :idiot2:
Quote from: panzerde on February 29, 2016, 09:06:57 AM
I would use Vassal to game more if it didn't take so long for me to go in and edit all of the counter graphics so that the corners looked clipped. ;D
LMAO
It begs the question does it take even more time to go in and edit for raggedy, unkept corners simulating poorly die cut counters?
One for Vance to answer, I think.
Quote from: panzerde on February 29, 2016, 09:06:57 AM
I would use Vassal to game more if it didn't take so long for me to go in and edit all of the counter graphics so that the corners looked clipped. ;D
I could create a script in Paintshop Pro to do this. Maybe then I could licence it to Oregon Laminations and we could have Deluxe Corner Rounder - Digital Editions...... ;)