GrogHeads Forum

A recent readers survey we did at PAXsims highlight how very disproportionately male our readers are. For those of us who work in professional/serious (war)gaming, this gender imbalance is a problem, both for diversity-of-perspectives reasons and for engaging-maximum-brainpower reasons.

Gender imbalances in the broader military and national security communities are part of the cause of this, of course. However the extraordinarily low representation of women among hobby wargamers isn't helpful either.

For some further thoughts on this, see my piece at PAXsims (https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2016/03/05/gender-and-national-security-gaming/).

These might also be of interest:

• Symposium on women and professional wargaming (https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2014/10/15/women-and-professional-wargaming/)
• Woman and wargaming thread at BGG (https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22020888#22020888)

What should we impose a quota?  Frankly why can we just get past this whole search for equality and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy?  If a woman wants to wargame,  it's not like they are forbidden from doing so.  Perhaps it's just not an appealing hobby or pastime for them.  And for those who do enjoy the hobby or professional wargaming more power to them.  There plenty to go around for whoever wants to wargame.  Male or female.

I think from a hobby perspective, you're probably right. But on the professional front, if we're using these as tools for policy decisions or course of action comparisons at a strategic or operational level, it might not hurt to have some other perspectives in the room

So quotas is the answer.  How about professionals are pulled from people who want to be there rather than arbitrarily forcing people into the room because they had xy chromosomes that determine their sexual organs?   

Quote from: Bison on March 05, 2016, 06:38:57 PMSo quotas is the answer.  How about professionals are pulled from people who want to be there rather than arbitrarily forcing people into the room because they had xy chromosomes that determine their sexual organs?   

if you're going to have women in decision-making positions - not through quota but through their own interest in the job and their promotions based on merit - why wouldn't you want them equally represented in the professional wargaming world that purports to help them with decision-making related to their jobs?

First off I never said I didn't want them in wargaming or in stratgic positions where wargaming may be used, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.  I said it is a poor policy in general to fill positions in any field just because there is a "feeling" that its unequal.  I said perhaps it's unequal due to differing interests.  I've known plenty of very capable women in "traditionally" male fields because they wanted to be there because that is where their interests lead them.  You want more women to wargame?  Then daughters need to be taught and exposed to wargaming, which I do with mine.  Does that mean they will grow up with that interest?  Not at all, but they were exposed to it by someone who loved them enough to take the time to teach them and play with them. 

I'm a little mystified how quotas got into the conversation. No one is suggesting quotas. Rather, it is being suggested that the hobby could probably do more to encourage women gamers (and that for a small number of those women, their exposure to hobby wargaming could pay professional dividends).

a) In my experience it isn't all that difficult, certainly not in a university setting, to find women who are interested in wargaming, or gaming conflict or security or political issues more broadly. Indeed, when you ask for volunteers typically 40-60% are female.

b) When you hang around with professional wargamers these days, 10-20% might be female.

c) On the other hand, most gaming clubs or online fora are 0-5% female.

There are many reasons why that difference exists. I suspect that part of it is that (a) and (b) are more welcoming and encouraging environments than (c). Moreover (a) in particular has very low barriers to entry (ie, no prior experience or knowledge is required.)

If so, that suggests we're making the hobby smaller than it could be--which seems kind of silly to me.

Quote from: Bison on March 05, 2016, 07:41:12 PMYou want more women to wargame?  Then daughters need to be taught and exposed to wargaming, which I do with mine.  Does that mean they will grow up with that interest?  Not at all, but they were exposed to it by someone who loved them enough to take the time to teach them and play with them. 

On that we can absolutely agree

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 05, 2016, 07:49:28 PM

Quote from: Bison on March 05, 2016, 07:41:12 PMYou want more women to wargame?  Then daughters need to be taught and exposed to wargaming, which I do with mine.  Does that mean they will grow up with that interest?  Not at all, but they were exposed to it by someone who loved them enough to take the time to teach them and play with them. 

On that we can absolutely agree

Amen!

I'd assume that the majority of the volunteers you are pulling at a university setting are coming from a political science or subfield of study.  That isn't a very good representation of the general population overall.  There's nothing wrong with the individuals whom are interested and volunteering at the university setting, since they will be the future professionals that hopefully have been taught the skills to help with strategic thinking.  Whether or not serious war(gaming) is a requirement of that profession.

In the general population, wargaming is a niche hobby.  That niche hobby is spread out to how many different types of wargames?  I'd assume people are generally drawn to wargaming either through being exposed to it at a young age, by friends, or a "hook" that brings them to wargaming such as an interest in WW2.  Wargaming is competing against every other imaginable hobby out there.  So there needs to be a strong appeal against every other hobby that will give someone the preference for it over other hobbies.  I still think that it's just a matter of interest.  You have to have enough interest to spend your time with something whether that's wargaming, bowling, cooking, or any other hobby.

Quote from: Rex Brynen on March 05, 2016, 07:45:17 PM
... it is being suggested that the hobby could probably do more to encourage women gamers ...

Did this big research project ever stop to think that perhaps wargaming just doesn't interest all but a small slice of the female populace just as drinking wine and painting nails doesn't interest all but a small slice of the male populace?  I think there might of been design decisions that were put into this mix for a reason but we as the creations keep wanting distort the whole thing.

too much common sense there GJK!

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2016, 09:01:33 AM
too much common sense there GJK!

Even with my ASL "brain drain" hangover from yesterday's gaming I could figure that one out.   ^-^

We're still on for some Chablis and our mani/pedi though, right?

Chablis....is that a single malt?  ???

Let's be honest, though - we often come across as quite elitist and curmudgeonly.  It's not an altogether unjust characterization, either. 

How often are you willing to hang out an explore any particular past-time / hobby / etc if the participants can be as off-putting as we can be when left unsupervised and in the vicinity of various spirits?

I make sure I shower at least once a week in order to not scare off the locals. 

Some of us are kinda scary looking too. We game for days without showering, and the only thing we clip with regularity is counters. I wouldn't want to game with us.  ???

Quote from: GJK on March 06, 2016, 08:44:53 AM
Did this big research project ever stop to think that perhaps wargaming just doesn't interest all but a small slice of the female populace just as drinking wine and painting nails doesn't interest all but a small slice of the male populace?  I think there might of been design decisions that were put into this mix for a reason but we as the creations keep wanting distort the whole thing.

I think the suggestion that most women are preoccupied with "drinking wine and painting nails," coupled with the implication that some supreme being designed men to be wargamers, probably makes my point about welcoming atmosphere/barriers to entry pretty well.

It probably also explains why, when women are in contexts where those views are not held or expressed, they participate in conflict simulations in much larger numbers.

Stretcher bearer!  We have a wounded martyr down!!!!

Or the context involves women who are predisposed to playing wargames.  The reference while perhaps a bit sarcastic is that men and women prefer different activities in general.  The other fact is that most men don't take up wargaming either.  As far as a professional or educational setting,  both the men and women present most likely share common interests.  If they have an interest in international conflict or security studies, when presented with a game simulating those interests I'm sure many would be willing to participate.  Present the same material to a group of biologists and I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be as receptive an audience.  Present GMT's Dominate Species and it may very well be a different outcome.  Of corse this is all generalized assumptions, but I think there is merit to it.   As far as gaming clubs, well let's face it the premise of a club is to find like minded or similarly interested individuals to share the hobby.  And perhaps the stereotype of old crusty men prevents women from joining or it could just simply be the case that more men than women wan to spend hours moving napoleonic minis around a table.   There is a social and comraderie factor to a gaming club which isn't inherently bad just because it comprised of more men than women.  Perhaps men and women are just different not in intellectual ability, but in how they prefer to spend their time.  I bet if you looked into the local bars fantasy football or dart leagues, you'd see a different composition of genders making up the groups.

Women and Wargaming? Um, fascinating, where are the women on this forum. 
First of all I'd like to say that I have been reading this forum for quite some time now. Thank you Mr. Rex Brynen for bring me out of the shadows.
I haven't joined because I am not a gamer and do not feel worthy enough to take up space, or post about things that I really know nothing about. I can always contribute to general non-gaming stuff. Why do I read this forum you ask? Well, I was being a friend to someone who is amongst you, and I'm not going to go out of my way to expose him. I continued reading because, let's be honest it's entertaining reading how  grown men spend their leisure time... especially when they have disagreements among themselves and can't find some middle ground. It's like the blind leading the blind up in here. Sorry blind people, you're probably not reading this, but I don't want to offend anybody. Just trying to make a point. 
One of the reasons I am not a wargamer, I didn't grow up with the exposure. I honestly didn't know anything about it until a couple of months ago. We live in a sexist world. While my brothers were playing with their toys, I was told that I couldn't because their toys were for boys. But I wanted to play with some of that stuff. I wanted to play with Nerf products and Hot Wheels, stupid Battle Ship. But seriously? Girls drive cars, which was my argument. But that's okay. I grew up and restored my dying convertible at some point in my life, I can change a tire and give my cars an oil change. Thanks dad, because I know that mom told you not to teach me (she's the sexist one), but YOU ARE THE MAN. Nobody tells you what you can or cannot do... Damn, maybe it was reverse psychology. (Mental note: Call mom. Get some answers.)
Consider this: While you men are playing your "games," what are your wives/girlfriends doing? Taking the kids to school, doing some grocery shopping, doing laundry, cleaning house/dishes, getting kids from school, might have a full time or part time job, getting the kids from school then soccer practice or anything like that, maybe taking them to the doctor/dentist, making sure they are clean (I heard some of you don't shower for days, a bit gross, but hey I get turned on by a nice sweating man. Who am I to judge?) They also have to put them to bed.... Oh and then taking care of themselves, did I mention maybe making dinner... people have to eat. I know if I don't cook, people won't feed themselves. They'll just go to McDonald's and feed themselves some fake food, filled with empty calories that'll just clog the arteries. Which I'm okay to some extent, until they decide to include the dog in that adventure. Please don't feed your dogs bread, it's not good for them. Don't feed them any street food. Not cool. I recently had a conversation via text with a friend, this is how it went:

ME: No one wants to go out and I need a distraction... What the hell?
Him: So go out. Surely you have somewhere you can hang out? Maybe it's time to find a gaming store and hang out with some nerds. They're good people.
ME: You make it sound so easy. Besides, I don't really play those kinds of games. Too much for my tiny brain.
Him: Go to learn some easy ones. They'd help you figure it out. Plenty of good people hanging out that love to teach new people.

Going by myself anywhere in general sucks as a female. I'll admit, I've been told I'm cute, beautiful. Thanks, and my stress balls are nice, full and perky. WHATEVER. So getting hit on comes with the territory. Which is okay, but sometimes guys have a hard time focusing. I'm asking for something specific and I'm being told... "You would like this" or "You should play this". I know what I want, I've done some research, and I'm not some ditz man. So yes, I've been to those gaming stores many times to buy gifts for friends and family members, but the truth is most people don't have the patience to teach anyone anything unless they have the time. Most of the time people are in the middle of a game. You "guys" are always in the middle of a game. I lived with the "definitely next time" speech since college. Eventually you just give up. Most guys are assholes, nah, all guys are assholes (Yeah, I said it. Whatever.) No, but when I do come across some dude who is a jerk, man they seem to take the cake and I get totally turned off... I go to my corner and lick my wounds. I've come across other females with the same issue. But you do also have those females who say they are gamers, but are not. That's got to be annoying for anyone who is trying play. So, that just makes it harder for those, like myself, who are really interested. I'm not doing it because I need the attention, or want more attention. I just want to play with somebody. So, what do smart girls do, we teach ourselves a thing or two. Because, like Mr. Bison said...

Quote from: Bison on March 05, 2016, 08:17:02 PM
I'd assume people are generally drawn to wargaming either through being exposed to it at a young age, by friends, or a "hook" that brings them to wargaming such as an interest in WW2.............. So there needs to be a strong appeal against every other hobby that will give someone the preference for it over other hobbies.  I still think that it's just a matter of interest.  You have to have enough interest to spend your time with something whether that's wargaming, bowling, cooking, or any other hobby.

Duh, If you are interested you are. If you are not, you are not... My best friend (oh, my a girl) and I have been talking about playing Risk for the longest time, my nephews are totally in, but our schedules are f*ed up so high... It just hasn't happened.
Also, I'm no one's show piece. Like a trophy wife/token. I am not going to sit there and be pretty. Okay, yes I will, but I will speak up. I have a lot to say (obviously). And you guys should read your own forums. You come off a bit misogynistic. I brought this up to my friend, the one I mentioned lurking about here on grogheads and other sites I'm sure. Honestly if I didn't know any better, I'd think he was a misogynistic asshole. I even asked him flat out about it and he responded with: "No of course I'm not a misogynist. I can't imagine why you'd ask me that.  :(" I explained myself to him. I don't know if he understood where I was coming from, but I'm still :smitten: with him. He's awesome in person, just stupid online. I also told him that I support his misogynistic outbursts. I am not offended, because at the end of the day I myself and a self-proclaimed misanthropist. I don't believe in the idea of equal rights because we are not all equal. Simply example: Women look better naked then men. Bam! Just dropped the mic. And everyone should be able to express themselves however they want and people should stop being so sensitive. Life's too short to get hung up on the small things. 
Another thing....

Quote from: Bison on March 06, 2016, 02:21:55 PM
.....perhaps the stereotype of old crusty men prevents women from joining.....

You think? No, you don't say. If you are going to hit on me, learn how to flirt. Flirting is an art, a skill. Don't be a pig, that's not cool. I know most men need their ego stroked (eh um, The Donald). But isn't kind of cool when a woman is in charge and giving you a "hard" time. Isn't awesome getting your ass kicked by a girl. Be a real man and recognize. Some women are just better then you. I've been told that I can be scary by some of my male friends, even females come to think of it. But honestly, guys say things that are a bit much at times, like rape jokes. Seriously? Again, I'm not offended, but I could have been. So maybe if we are nicer to each other we can get along better. And guys, if you have daughters, don't treat them too differently from your sons. Definitely don't exclude them because they are girls. We all deserve respect, men and women alike. 
So in the process I learned, that I get bored playing solitaire games. I'm a social creature and I like to kick people's asses. Most of them play Monopoly, I've read that most of you don't like this game. Well whatever, neither do I. But I like the people that I usually play with and I'm good at it. So until I find some people who genuinely wants to take me under their wing and I don't know, play with me... I will be one of those people excluded from the wargaming world who happens to be a female. Regardless of being a female, I do have things to do... like harass my friend about going church on Sunday because we're all sinners and he's been a bad boy.

Thanks for the lecture and welcome to the forums.

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 03:07:29 PMThank you Mr. Rex Brynen for bring me out of the shadows.

My good deed for the day is done!  O:-)

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 03:07:29 PM
Women and Wargaming? Um, fascinating, where are the women on this forum. 
First of all I'd like to say that I have been reading this forum for quite some time now. Thank you Mr. Rex Brynen for bring me out of the shadows.
I haven't joined because I am not a gamer and do not feel worthy enough to take up space, or post about things that I really know nothing about. I can always contribute to general non-gaming stuff. Why do I read this forum you ask? Well, I was being a friend to someone who is amongst you, and I'm not going to go out of my way to expose him. I continued reading because, let's be honest it's entertaining reading how  grown men spend their leisure time... especially when they have disagreements among themselves and can't find some middle ground. It's like the blind leading the blind up in here. Sorry blind people, you're probably not reading this, but I don't want to offend anybody. Just trying to make a point. 
One of the reasons I am not a wargamer, I didn't grow up with the exposure. I honestly didn't know anything about it until a couple of months ago. We live in a sexist world. While my brothers were playing with their toys, I was told that I couldn't because their toys were for boys. But I wanted to play with some of that stuff. I wanted to play with Nerf products and Hot Wheels, stupid Battle Ship. But seriously? Girls drive cars, which was my argument. But that's okay. I grew up and restored my dying convertible at some point in my life, I can change a tire and give my cars an oil change. Thanks dad, because I know that mom told you not to teach me (she's the sexist one), but YOU ARE THE MAN. Nobody tells you what you can or cannot do... Damn, maybe it was reverse psychology. (Mental note: Call mom. Get some answers.)
Consider this: While you men are playing your "games," what are your wives/girlfriends doing? Taking the kids to school, doing some grocery shopping, doing laundry, cleaning house/dishes, getting kids from school, might have a full time or part time job, getting the kids from school then soccer practice or anything like that, maybe taking them to the doctor/dentist, making sure they are clean (I heard some of you don't shower for days, a bit gross, but hey I get turned on by a nice sweating man. Who am I to judge?) They also have to put them to bed.... Oh and then taking care of themselves, did I mention maybe making dinner... people have to eat. I know if I don't cook, people won't feed themselves. They'll just go to McDonald's and feed themselves some fake food, filled with empty calories that'll just clog the arteries. Which I'm okay to some extent, until they decide to include the dog in that adventure. Please don't feed your dogs bread, it's not good for them. Don't feed them any street food. Not cool. I recently had a conversation via text with a friend, this is how it went:

ME: No one wants to go out and I need a distraction... What the hell?
Him: So go out. Surely you have somewhere you can hang out? Maybe it's time to find a gaming store and hang out with some nerds. They're good people.
ME: You make it sound so easy. Besides, I don't really play those kinds of games. Too much for my tiny brain.
Him: Go to learn some easy ones. They'd help you figure it out. Plenty of good people hanging out that love to teach new people.

Going by myself anywhere in general sucks as a female. I'll admit, I've been told I'm cute, beautiful. Thanks, and my stress balls are nice, full and perky. WHATEVER. So getting hit on comes with the territory. Which is okay, but sometimes guys have a hard time focusing. I'm asking for something specific and I'm being told... "You would like this" or "You should play this". I know what I want, I've done some research, and I'm not some ditz man. So yes, I've been to those gaming stores many times to buy gifts for friends and family members, but the truth is most people don't have the patience to teach anyone anything unless they have the time. Most of the time people are in the middle of a game. You "guys" are always in the middle of a game. I lived with the "definitely next time" speech since college. Eventually you just give up. Most guys are assholes, nah, all guys are assholes (Yeah, I said it. Whatever.) No, but when I do come across some dude who is a jerk, man they seem to take the cake and I get totally turned off... I go to my corner and lick my wounds. I've come across other females with the same issue. But you do also have those females who say they are gamers, but are not. That's got to be annoying for anyone who is trying play. So, that just makes it harder for those, like myself, who are really interested. I'm not doing it because I need the attention, or want more attention. I just want to play with somebody. So, what do smart girls do, we teach ourselves a thing or two. Because, like Mr. Bison said...

Quote from: Bison on March 05, 2016, 08:17:02 PM
I'd assume people are generally drawn to wargaming either through being exposed to it at a young age, by friends, or a "hook" that brings them to wargaming such as an interest in WW2.............. So there needs to be a strong appeal against every other hobby that will give someone the preference for it over other hobbies.  I still think that it's just a matter of interest.  You have to have enough interest to spend your time with something whether that's wargaming, bowling, cooking, or any other hobby.

Duh, If you are interested you are. If you are not, you are not... My best friend (oh, my a girl) and I have been talking about playing Risk for the longest time, my nephews are totally in, but our schedules are f*ed up so high... It just hasn't happened.
Also, I'm no one's show piece. Like a trophy wife/token. I am not going to sit there and be pretty. Okay, yes I will, but I will speak up. I have a lot to say (obviously). And you guys should read your own forums. You come off a bit misogynistic. I brought this up to my friend, the one I mentioned lurking about here on grogheads and other sites I'm sure. Honestly if I didn't know any better, I'd think he was a misogynistic asshole. I even asked him flat out about it and he responded with: "No of course I'm not a misogynist. I can't imagine why you'd ask me that.  :(" I explained myself to him. I don't know if he understood where I was coming from, but I'm still :smitten: with him. He's awesome in person, just stupid online. I also told him that I support his misogynistic outbursts. I am not offended, because at the end of the day I myself and a self-proclaimed misanthropist. I don't believe in the idea of equal rights because we are not all equal. Simply example: Women look better naked then men. Bam! Just dropped the mic. And everyone should be able to express themselves however they want and people should stop being so sensitive. Life's too short to get hung up on the small things. 
Another thing....

Quote from: Bison on March 06, 2016, 02:21:55 PM
.....perhaps the stereotype of old crusty men prevents women from joining.....

You think? No, you don't say. If you are going to hit on me, learn how to flirt. Flirting is an art, a skill. Don't be a pig, that's not cool. I know most men need their ego stroked (eh um, The Donald). But isn't kind of cool when a woman is in charge and giving you a "hard" time. Isn't awesome getting your ass kicked by a girl. Be a real man and recognize. Some women are just better then you. I've been told that I can be scary by some of my male friends, even females come to think of it. But honestly, guys say things that are a bit much at times, like rape jokes. Seriously? Again, I'm not offended, but I could have been. So maybe if we are nicer to each other we can get along better. And guys, if you have daughters, don't treat them too differently from your sons. Definitely don't exclude them because they are girls. We all deserve respect, men and women alike. 
So in the process I learned, that I get bored playing solitaire games. I'm a social creature and I like to kick people's asses. Most of them play Monopoly, I've read that most of you don't like this game. Well whatever, neither do I. But I like the people that I usually play with and I'm good at it. So until I find some people who genuinely wants to take me under their wing and I don't know, play with me... I will be one of those people excluded from the wargaming world who happens to be a female. Regardless of being a female, I do have things to do... like harass my friend about going church on Sunday because we're all sinners and he's been a bad boy.

youre not Wodin are you?

Quote from: Bison on March 06, 2016, 03:11:57 PM
Thanks for the lecture and welcome to the forums.

No, no, no. That was not a lecture. That was simply a sharing of my personal experience as to why I am not part of your inner circle.
And thank you...

Quote from: Rex Brynen on March 06, 2016, 03:22:28 PM
My good deed for the day is done!  O:-)

No good deed goes unpunished.  >:D No good deed.

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2016, 03:37:01 PM
youre not Wodin are you?

I'm not going to lie to you, I don't know what a Wodin is.

Someone pass the popcorn.

My money's on Star.  ;D

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 06:13:15 PM
I'm not going to lie to you, I don't know what a Wodin is.

ive got to be honest, neither do we

Oops, I forgot. Welcome, Crazy Girl!  O0

^^ooooh you fibber, Geek. You said you had a big one but only got it out on bank holidays.

Quote from: bob48 on March 06, 2016, 06:28:07 PM
^^ooooh you fibber, Geek. You said you had a big one but only got it out on bank holidays.

And welcome Crazy Girl.

If you really are crazy, then you've come to the right shop.

Welcome, Crazy Girl.

Sorry to say, but at least for me your initial post was tl;dr but we're glad to have you anyway.

Bob is correct, as usual. Sanity is not highly valued here, but we do have a few resident trophy wives - just ask for Star or Gus. They're always on call.

Quote from: mirth on March 06, 2016, 06:17:22 PM
Someone pass the popcorn.

Don't be so dramatic man. That ain't cool...

Quote from: bbmike on March 06, 2016, 06:23:56 PM
My money's on Star.  ;D

Why?

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2016, 06:26:35 PM

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 06:13:15 PM
I'm not going to lie to you, I don't know what a Wodin is.

ive got to be honest, neither do we

Guess I'll keep reading those other websites for educational purposes and GrogHeads for pure entertainment.

Quote from: bob48 on March 06, 2016, 06:29:24 PM
And welcome Crazy Girl.
If you really are crazy, then you've come to the right shop.

The right shop or stop? Either way, I been reading the forums for months now. I like it here.

Quote from: LongBlade on March 06, 2016, 06:37:35 PM
Welcome, Crazy Girl.
Sorry to say, but at least for me your initial post was tl;dr but we're glad to have you anyway.
Bob is correct, as usual. Sanity is not highly valued here, but we do have a few resident trophy wives - just ask for Star or Gus. They're always on call.

Sorry, but when people respond with "tl:dr" it makes me feel like they are either too lazy or a bit slow.  :)
No worries, I don't care. Thank you for welcoming me.
Just so you know I am certifiably crazy, but I'm not crazy enough to get married though.
If you'd even bother to read my looooooooooong post, you'd know, and I'll quote myself:
"I’m no one’s show piece. Like a trophy wife/token."
I am not a prize to be won. I am a person, and no I am not a feminist.

Are all married women trophys/prizes?

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 06:57:20 PM
Sorry, but when people respond with "tl:dr" it makes me feel like they are either too lazy or a bit slow.  :)

I'm both, so you're batting 100 so far.

I enjoy a good puppet show, but what does all this have to do with wargaming?

Quote from: Rex Brynen on March 06, 2016, 02:06:23 PM

Quote from: GJK on March 06, 2016, 08:44:53 AM
Did this big research project ever stop to think that perhaps wargaming just doesn't interest all but a small slice of the female populace just as drinking wine and painting nails doesn't interest all but a small slice of the male populace?  I think there might of been design decisions that were put into this mix for a reason but we as the creations keep wanting distort the whole thing.

I think the suggestion that most women are preoccupied with "drinking wine and painting nails," coupled with the implication that some supreme being designed men to be wargamers, probably makes my point about welcoming atmosphere/barriers to entry pretty well.

It probably also explains why, when women are in contexts where those views are not held or expressed, they participate in conflict simulations in much larger numbers.

Then why aren't there large numbers of "women wargamers" clubs/groups around the globe?  If the hypothesis is that women do/would enjoy wargaming if it weren't for the "less than friendly" male populace of wargamers, then wouldn't you think that they'd form more hospitable groups to accommodate them?

Quote from: mirth on March 06, 2016, 07:05:25 PM
I enjoy a good puppet show, but what does all this have to do with wargaming?

We wouldn't know - were too busy playing our little boys games whilst the women do the shopping, go to work, make sandwiches and grow moustaches

Like star and gus but more serious and with tampons

Quote from: GJK on March 06, 2016, 07:08:35 PM
Then why aren't there large numbers of "women wargamers" clubs/groups around the globe?  If the hypothesis is that women do/would enjoy wargaming if it weren't for the "less than friendly" male populace of wargamers, then wouldn't you think that they'd form more hospitable groups to accommodate them?

In fairness, most wargamers aren't hospitable to many men, either.

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 06:57:20 PM

Quote from: bbmike on March 06, 2016, 06:23:56 PM
My money's on Star.  ;D

Why?

An inexplicable ability to read people. And, though I've never met him, he's awesome in person and just stupid online just as you said.

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2016, 07:00:23 PM
Are all married women trophys/prizes?

No, but all married men are lucky.  :)
(I know some married men that would say they messed up, they are still lucky.)
A trophy is an item. Something you win. People are not objects.
A young, attractive wife regarded as a status symbol for an older man, that's not cool.
What happens to the wife when she is no longer young and attractive?

Quote from: LongBlade on March 06, 2016, 07:02:55 PM

I'm both, so you're batting 100 so far.

I'm a genius?

Quote from: mirth on March 06, 2016, 07:05:25 PM
I enjoy a good puppet show, but what does all this have to do with wargaming?

Nothing, go back to your game.

Quote from: GJK on March 06, 2016, 07:08:35 PM
Then why aren't there large numbers of "women wargamers" clubs/groups around the globe?  If the hypothesis is that women do/would enjoy wargaming if it weren't for the "less than friendly" male populace of wargamers, then wouldn't you think that they'd form more hospitable groups to accommodate them?

Well isn't that the point? Why can't us girls play with the boys? Like I said in my long rant... I have been discourage time and time again. I play with the girls just fine. It seems that most men don't want the ladies around for whatever reason. But I know that if a men tells a woman, go away because you are a woman, that would be sexist. At the same time, I don't want to be anywhere I am not wanted.

Quote from: LongBlade on March 06, 2016, 07:16:08 PM
In fairness, most wargamers aren't hospitable to many men, either.

This is so true, I've witness some games that have gotten pretty intense and was pretty happy not to be a part of.

I'll nominate this for the 2016 Grogheads Drama Queen of the Year Award.

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 07:27:10 PM

Quote from: GJK on March 06, 2016, 07:08:35 PM
Then why aren't there large numbers of "women wargamers" clubs/groups around the globe?  If the hypothesis is that women do/would enjoy wargaming if it weren't for the "less than friendly" male populace of wargamers, then wouldn't you think that they'd form more hospitable groups to accommodate them?

Well isn't that the point? Why can't us girls play with the boys? Like I said in my long rant... I have been discourage time and time again. I play with the girls just fine. It seems that most men don't want the ladies around for whatever reason. But I know that if a men tells a woman, go away because you are a woman, that would be sexist. At the same time, I don't want to be anywhere I am not wanted.

Well my point is; if playing with the boys is unpleasant and you happen to be playing with the girls because of such, do you ever play wargames?  If not, why not?  Does the subject matter not interest you or do you have a preference for other types of games?

I don't buy the argument that "men are pigs/sexist/unpleasant towards women" and thus that's the reason why women aren't playing wargames in great numbers.  Sure, there's many exceptions in both cases but I'll stand by my original point - the overwhelming majority of women just don't care to game a game covering the Stalingrad campaign or WWI trench warfare (as examples) on any sort of regular basis.

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 06, 2016, 03:37:01 PM
youre not Wodin are you?

That was my first thought!

Welcome, Crazy Girl! It sounds like you will add a lot (good) to the place.

Quote from: mirth on March 06, 2016, 07:38:58 PM
I'll nominate this for the 2016 Grogheads Drama Queen of the Year Award.

No, it's definitely the other thread where the guy almost bit off the other guy's head for bashing a game he's never played or even reviewed.
That was pure gold. That's the one I would nominate.

Quote from: GJK on March 06, 2016, 07:08:35 PM
Well my point is; if playing with the boys is unpleasant and you happen to be playing with the girls because of such, do you ever play wargames?  If not, why not?  Does the subject matter not interest you or do you have a preference for other types of games?

I don't buy the argument that "men are pigs/sexist/unpleasant towards women" and thus that's the reason why women aren't playing wargames in great numbers.  Sure, there's many exceptions in both cases but I'll stand by my original point - the overwhelming majority of women just don't care to game a game covering the Stalingrad campaign or WWI trench warfare (as examples) on any sort of regular basis.

I agree with you. I believe we are chasing our own tails. Saying the same thing, but in different ways.
It's not unpleasant playing with the guys, but most have been playing for so long that someone like me would "hold them back."
Most women are not interested, mainly because they have never been exposed. Common knowledge. So no wargames there.
Take all the females interested in general gaming, small number.... even smaller for wargaming. 1 is the loneliest number.
And no, not all "men are pigs/sexist/unpleasant towards women", but if you run into that one guy, you either deal with it or go away.
Personally, I'm more of the, "I'm out of here, this guy ruined my mood." I just end up doing something else.
I know some people will say, play a solitaire game. But like I said, I'm a social creature.

Quote from: Ubercat on March 06, 2016, 08:13:20 PM
Welcome, Crazy Girl! It sounds like you will add a lot (good) to the place.

Nope. I'm pure evil.  >:D

Mom! Dad! It's evil! Don't touch it!

Quote from: LongBlade on March 06, 2016, 07:02:55 PM

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 06:57:20 PM
Sorry, but when people respond with "tl:dr" it makes me feel like they are either too lazy or a bit slow.  :)

I'm both, so you're batting 100 so far.

I think you mean 'batting 1000'. Batting 100 is pretty damn awful.  ;)

Quote from: GJK on March 06, 2016, 07:08:35 PM
Well my point is; if playing with the boys is unpleasant and you happen to be playing with the girls because of such, do you ever play wargames?  If not, why not?  Does the subject matter not interest you or do you have a preference for other types of games?


I don't buy the argument that "men are pigs/sexist/unpleasant towards women" and thus that's the reason why women aren't playing wargames in great numbers.  Sure, there's many exceptions in both cases but I'll stand by my original point - the overwhelming majority of women just don't care to game a game covering the Stalingrad campaign or WWI trench warfare (as examples) on any sort of regular basis.

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 06, 2016, 08:18:19 PM
I agree with you. I believe we are chasing our own tails. Saying the same thing, but in different ways.
It's not unpleasant playing with the guys, but most have been playing for so long that someone like me would "hold them back."
Most women are not interested, mainly because they have never been exposed. Common knowledge. So no wargames there.
Take all the females interested in general gaming, small number.... even smaller for wargaming. 1 is the loneliest number.
And no, not all "men are pigs/sexist/unpleasant towards women", but if you run into that one guy, you either deal with it or go away.
Personally, I'm more of the, "I'm out of here, this guy ruined my mood." I just end up doing something else.
I know some people will say, play a solitaire game. But like I said, I'm a social creature.

To be sure though and more on point about the original argument that was posted:


1. I see thread after thread from men asking what games would be best to introduce their wives/gf into the (wargaming) hobby.  I also see similar threads asking what games to introduce to their children as well and that very often includes their daughters.  I think that most, if not all men, would love to have a female join them.  Hell, men would love to have *anybody* join them I think because finding an opponent in this very niche hobby is our biggest challenge.  I have a picture of me and my girlfriend playing Up Front.  I was so damn proud, happy and excited that she actually asked me to "try out one of your little games" that I took pictures and posted them here.  Others have done the same.  It's rare but it happens and I believe that the majority of men highly encourage that.


2. I disagree that it's because of lack of exposure that women don't play wargames.  I still contend that it's because of lack of interest in the subject matter.  If you go to your local library/book store and go to the military history section - what percentage of those authors are male as compared to female do you think?  Is it because the women weren't taught history in school that they don't later grow up to further research and write about it themselves?  Is it because the male history authors bully them out of becoming history authors?  No, I don't think so.  I think that the history of the 101st airborne dropping out of planes over the coast of France in June of '44 is just something that doesn't appeal to a wide range of females.  Why?  I can only guess that it's by intelligent design.  I don't think it's because boys play with GI Joes and girls play with Barbie.  I just believe that we are hard-wired that way by whatever creator or the method one chooses to believe in. 

Quote from: Ubercat on March 06, 2016, 11:20:00 PM
Mom! Dad! It's evil! Don't touch it!

One of my favorite movies!  O0

Quote from: Ubercat on March 06, 2016, 11:20:00 PM
Mom! Dad! It's evil! Don't touch it!

Yeah, if you touch me you'll get burned.  >:D

Quote from: Arctic Blast on March 07, 2016, 12:28:51 AM
I think you mean 'batting 1000'. Batting 100 is pretty damn awful.  ;)

Guess it doesn't matter, cuz my power level is pretty high... :2funny:

Quote from: GJK on March 07, 2016, 07:26:37 AM
1. I see thread after thread from men asking what games would be best to introduce their wives/gf into the (wargaming) hobby.  I also see similar threads asking what games to introduce to their children as well and that very often includes their daughters.  I think that most, if not all men, would love to have a female join them.  Hell, men would love to have *anybody* join them I think because finding an opponent in this very niche hobby is our biggest challenge.  I have a picture of me and my girlfriend playing Up Front.  I was so damn proud, happy and excited that she actually asked me to "try out one of your little games" that I took pictures and posted them here.  Others have done the same.  It's rare but it happens and I believe that the majority of men highly encourage that.

When a man takes the time to include the significant other, that's awesome! Like you taking the time with your girlfriend to play the game. That's so cool! But would you take the time to teach a stranger, so they could join you? I mean, I've been told, "do this, do that, then come back". It's like I'm never going to get UP to your level to be a "worthy" opponent if I don't even have a chance to begin. Perhaps the majority of men do encourage that, but I have yet to come across one that would be "willing" to show me the way.  So for now, I learn on my own.

Quote from: GJK on March 07, 2016, 07:26:37 AM
2. I disagree that it's because of lack of exposure that women don't play wargames.  I still contend that it's because of lack of interest in the subject matter.  If you go to your local library/book store and go to the military history section - what percentage of those authors are male as compared to female do you think?  Is it because the women weren't taught history in school that they don't later grow up to further research and write about it themselves?  Is it because the male history authors bully them out of becoming history authors?  No, I don't think so.  I think that the history of the 101st airborne dropping out of planes over the coast of France in June of '44 is just something that doesn't appeal to a wide range of females.  Why?  I can only guess that it's by intelligent design.  I don't think it's because boys play with GI Joes and girls play with Barbie.  I just believe that we are hard-wired that way by whatever creator or the method one chooses to believe in. 

Okay, you can't enjoy something you haven't tried. You probably won't try it if you don't know of its existence. Like Au Pied de Cochon in Paris, best snails ever... I don't remember anything else from that place, but I remember that. Now, in school, sure we are exposed to most of the same subjects, but if you do go to the library, most authors are men in general, especially in hard sciences, politics and history. It's a long history, at some point women weren't allowed in combat. But hey, I spent some time on some military bases because I was doing some research and the tides are changing, but it is a slow process. At the  end of the day GI Joes are dolls just like Barbie... and we are wired differently. Because you're right, we all have different interests. I feel that we are on the same page for different reasons. You say, and I'm cutting it short. Not that many women are interested. True, but then those who are might not feel welcomed. I just wanted to share my personal experience and point of view. Putting it out there "I'm interested." But the truth is I don't feel welcomed. So I'm out.

Go to Matrix or John Tiller Software and pick a game you're interested in. Buy it and I'll teach you to play PBEM. Or, if you don't want to do that go to LnL Publishing, pick one of the LnL tactics games, and we'll set up a Vassal session and I'll teach you to play.

If stuff like X-Wing and Settlers of Catan are more your interest someone else will have to step up because those aren't my interests, but if you want to play a wargame, I'm in. And I don't mean sometime, I mean immediately. I'll teach you to play any time you want.

Or, show up at Origins. We're short at least one Game Master. We can teach you to play there, and then you can help other people learn about wargaming.

I'm a lot more interested in what you want to play than anything else. Dependable, regular opponents are too few and far between.

Quote from: panzerde on March 07, 2016, 07:51:04 PMOr, show up at Origins. We're short at least one Game Master. We can teach you to play there, and then you can help other people learn about wargaming.

I'm a lot more interested in what you want to play than anything else. Dependable, regular opponents are too few and far between.

What Doug said :)

Interesting discussion.
I guess I got lucky: my woman has beaten me at W1815, Battleline, and Hold the Line. The aspects she enjoys most about the games are competition and the theme (historical, fictional, etc.).

However, she does--benevolently--shell out a hard time when I'm watching WWII In Color on Netflix at 8:00 in the morning.

Who knows what kind of people would come out of the woodwork if a thread was created that was titled Transgender & Wargaming.



Groggy

I purposely didn't respond to undercovergeek's "tampon" joke. Yes imagine bleeding 3-5 day, every month... for years. So annoying.
ANYWAYS.

Mr. panzerde, I will reach out to you when I get to a level of comfort. Because...

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 07, 2016, 10:51:28 AM
"I'm interested." But the truth is I don't feel welcomed. So I'm out.

Sir bayonetbrant, I don't know who Doug is, but I'm guessing it's panzerde.

And Groggy dude, you did get lucky. Transgender & Wargaming, um. Nice.

Happy International Women's Day boys, cause there are real wars to be won all over the world.
Wargaming in America is somewhat at the bottom of a very, very, very long list.
www.internationalwomensday.com/

Heh. I'll be playing a wargame with a transgendered opponent this Thursday.

Quote from: Ubercat on March 08, 2016, 10:29:14 AMHeh. I'll be playing a wargame with a transgendered opponent this Thursday.

heck, we had one on the Grogcast just recently!

My wife has always agreed to play any wargame with me once.  Except ASL.  Never ASL.  I am on notice.  She even played "Outdoor Survival" once which is all but framed at my house as the worst game ever designed.  As my son has grown she has happily sloughed off that responsibility to him, but we've got a round of "Epic Duels" set for tonight and our recent hard run at Legendary Encounters: Alien was brilliant.

Also, gentlemen, I entered this thread with no small measure of trepidation and am delighted that, as far as ai can tell, at no point did this degenerate into a conversation about ANY female body parts.  Entirely well done.  I take this as progress.

Quote from: Cyrano on March 09, 2016, 12:18:37 PMAlso, gentlemen, I entered this thread with no small measure of trepidation and am delighted that, as far as ai can tell, at no point did this degenerate into a conversation about ANY female body parts.  Entirely well done.  I take this as progress.

to be fair, there's no shortage of those elsewhere

Quote from: Cyrano on March 09, 2016, 12:18:37 PM
Also, gentlemen, I entered this thread with no small measure of trepidation and am delighted that, as far as ai can tell, at no point did this degenerate into a conversation about ANY female body parts.  Entirely well done.  I take this as progress.

Well, Crazy Girl kicked off the OP with the mention of some "stress balls" but in a remarkable show of restraint no one took the bait. Probably for the reason Brant notes above.

We've all been pretty busy trying to keep Star out of the goat locker.

I heard someone call me out. LONGBLADE... tsk, tsk, tsk. Risky behavior.

Quote from: Cyrano on March 09, 2016, 12:18:37 PM
My wife has always agreed to play any wargame with me once...

That's AWESOME!!!

Quote from: Cyrano on March 09, 2016, 12:18:37 PM
Also, gentlemen...

Exclusion, NOT awesome. I'm a girl. I am here. I'm not gentle and I'm definitely not a man.
But I understand your message was for the boys. The gentle statement, ignore that.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 09, 2016, 12:23:43 PM

Quote from: Cyrano on March 09, 2016, 12:18:37 PMAlso, gentlemen, I entered this thread with no small measure of trepidation and am delighted that, as far as ai can tell, at no point did this degenerate into a conversation about ANY female body parts.  Entirely well done.  I take this as progress.

to be fair, there's no shortage of those elsewhere

Yes, I read fast and I covered a lot of ground, somebody always throws something in there. It's actually quite funny.
Personal note, I grew up with 2 brothers and their "not so smart" friends were always over. I can handle it.
You guys are pretty tame, maybe cause you're all "grown" up.

Quote from: LongBlade on March 09, 2016, 12:56:35 PM
Well, Crazy Girl kicked off the OP with the mention of some "stress balls" but in a remarkable show of restraint no one took the bait. Probably for the reason Brant notes above.

Yes, I'm glad I was able to speak your language. Not sure if my message came across as I would of liked.
Anyways, I am not a troll. I get seasick so by default I don't go fishing.

CrazyGirl,
you're trying to hard... just saying.

Quote from: Windigo on March 10, 2016, 02:37:17 AM
CrazyGirl,
you're trying to hard... just saying.

Not sure if intentional misspelling..

Strictly on the subliminal level I assure you.

Quote from: Windigo on March 10, 2016, 02:37:17 AM
CrazyGirl,
you're trying to hard... just saying.

"O", there it is. In case you forgot. Too smart for my own good.
Okay, I'll bite. I mean hey, you called me out. Literally.
So what did you mean? You got choices.
A. What do you mean I'm trying "too" hard? If that's what you meant.
B. Awe, you think I'm trying. Don't think. You might hurt yourself.
C. I'm trying to harden what? Seriously? It wasn't that far under the radar.
D. All of the above.

Hey y'all...  just a note:  this is the "wargaming" section of the forum!  :D

We could, y'know, actually talk about, I dunno...  WARGAMES!

Jumping in for a moment:

I can assure anyone here that I would be teaching my nieces to play strategy and tactical games 24 / 7 (or for as long as they cared ;) ), along with basic swordfighting skilz once they got old enough to be trusted with weapon techniques (I've already taught them a little about movement), and even rather more violent video games (within their age appropriate limit of course).

But -- the parents, and especially their mom, put a big NO on most of that. I can get away with management games but that's about it.

Some of that is no doubt due to wanting them not to be dangerously aggressive, or to have nightmares, which is very understandable. But a lot of it amounts to 'That's for boys, not for girls.'

And that's what they're learning, too.  :-\

(Note: the Bro was himself as much of a wargamer as I was growing up, and despite him being younger I got into it thanks to him. He'd probably be more lenient about it; it's the Browife who puts on the brakes, be that right or wrong in whatever mix.)


Anyway, welcome CG.  8)

Hi lads and lasses , I really feel I have to jump in here and add my two penny's worth :)
First of all hi crazy girl , nice to see a woman posting on here and sharing her opinions . But I have to say that after reading all your comments and everyone's replies I think you've made some wide and sweeping statements .

I don't post much , but when I have done ...EVERYONE  that has replied to me has been very welcoming and helpful and very friendly . I haven't come across one guy that's tried to hit on me , which is awesome because I'm here to learn about gaming . And most guys on here have women in their lives wives/daughters/moms soooooo I'm sure they know by now how to respect women  O0

I think you've not really given these guys a chance , you've started off with a very defensive stance and just assumed that guys on here will be horrible to you , instead of just making friends and then if you do come across someone that acts inappropriately , report it and it will be dealt with .....there is always the GROGFATHER and his associates after all monitoring 24/7  :knuppel2:

Hell.......one of the guys offered to teach you war gaming , and he didn't seem to mind that you are a beginner ...just sayin  :)

As for me , I read in the forums regularly , I'm learning a lot about what games I may or may not be interested in . I've bought carcassone and many add on's because of hearing about it on here , ok it's not a war game , but it's a lot of fun , great strategy and it's a beginning . I don't think I'll ever become a hardened war gamer ......ahem ...excuse the pun ....knowing you lot you won't  :2funny: but oh well , that's what makes you guys tick , that's fine by me  :D  goodness knows if this was a female dominated site there would be puns a plenty about gals and guys ......and maybe the guys would be feeling intimidated, and there'd have to be a GROGMOTHER , lol , taking care of business !!

Those are my thoughts on this subject .............fire at will !!!!!!  :P

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
GROGMOTHER

Great post Emeraldis, and Gus is the grogmother - just saying

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 10, 2016, 01:04:26 PM

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
GROGMOTHER

Great post Emeraldis, and Gus is the grogmother - just saying

:2funny: who are the ugly sisters ................... ::)  I could nominate myself for one ....I'm having that kind of a day !!!

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 01:10:52 PM

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 10, 2016, 01:04:26 PM

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
GROGMOTHER

Great post Emeraldis, and Gus is the grogmother - just saying

:2funny: who are the ugly sisters ................... ::)

That question, lies madness.  ::) :P

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 10, 2016, 12:20:49 PM
I can assure anyone here that I would be teaching my nieces to play strategy and tactical games...

That's pure awesomeness!!!

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 10, 2016, 12:20:49 PM
But -- the parents, and especially their mom, put a big NO on most of that...
But a lot of it amounts to 'That's for boys, not for girls.'
And that's what they're learning, too.  :-\

And that is not awesome. When they grow up they might continue to be interested.
They are lucky that they will be able to come to you. Unlike me. Which leads me to...

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 10, 2016, 12:19:02 PM
Hey y'all...  just a note:  this is the "wargaming" section of the forum!  :D

We could, y'know, actually talk about, I dunno...  WARGAMES!

Go make yourself some pancakes with a single Hersey kiss...
Yeah. *whispers* "I see and read everything.
But seriously, what do you guys recommend for a beginner?
Someone told me about Commander, but anything else?

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
Hi lads and lasses , I really feel I have to jump in here and add my two penny's worth :) ...

Yay! This thread has been going for a while and I was starting to wonder. Where are the ladies?
Happy to see your response. My initial post was referring to face to face experience.
I have not been so lucky. So yeah, there is some anger and frustration in there.
I'm woman enough to admit that. But it's not directed at these guys. I hope they know that.
I was obviously comfortable enough to come out and share my thoughts.
I've been reading around for months.
From what I have read, it's not bad at all and they seem pretty cool.
That's why I could not help myself when I saw this thread.
I'm one of those people that reads the links embedded into people's posts.
I want to make sure I know what I am talking about.
And yes someone was nice enough to reach out to me.  :)

Oh and undercovergeek, I am Wodin. I looked myself up. Thanks.

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
Hi lads and lasses , I really feel I have to jump in here and add my two penny's worth :)
First of all hi crazy girl , nice to see a woman posting on here and sharing her opinions . But I have to say that after reading all your comments and everyone's replies I think you've made some wide and sweeping statements .

I don't post much , but when I have done ...EVERYONE  that has replied to me has been very welcoming and helpful and very friendly . I haven't come across one guy that's tried to hit on me , which is awesome because I'm here to learn about gaming . And most guys on here have women in their lives wives/daughters/moms soooooo I'm sure they know by now how to respect women  O0

I think you've not really given these guys a chance , you've started off with a very defensive stance and just assumed that guys on here will be horrible to you , instead of just making friends and then if you do come across someone that acts inappropriately , report it and it will be dealt with .....there is always the GROGFATHER and his associates after all monitoring 24/7  :knuppel2:

Hell.......one of the guys offered to teach you war gaming , and he didn't seem to mind that you are a beginner ...just sayin  :)

As for me , I read in the forums regularly , I'm learning a lot about what games I may or may not be interested in . I've bought carcassone and many add on's because of hearing about it on here , ok it's not a war game , but it's a lot of fun , great strategy and it's a beginning . I don't think I'll ever become a hardened war gamer ......ahem ...excuse the pun ....knowing you lot you won't  :2funny: but oh well , that's what makes you guys tick , that's fine by me  :D  goodness knows if this was a female dominated site there would be puns a plenty about gals and guys ......and maybe the guys would be feeling intimidated, and there'd have to be a GROGMOTHER , lol , taking care of business !!

Those are my thoughts on this subject .............fire at will !!!!!!  :P

Well said! (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FSmilies%2Fcheerswine.gif&hash=fa80af25b201a68d5276aefbb1473d4dc380d3e9)

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 10, 2016, 01:35:39 PM
Oh and undercovergeek, I am Wodin. I looked myself up. Thanks.

lies  ;D

i see everything

^ Hot damn, that's classic. 

You know you've arrived when you end up in a sig line.   O0

Well said! (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FSmilies%2Fcheerswine.gif&hash=fa80af25b201a68d5276aefbb1473d4dc380d3e9)
[/quote]

Hey LB , are you awarding me with a spatula or a glass of wine .....'cause I'll take both !!! I could use a glass right now , come to think of it I'm sure I could find a use for that spatula too  ::)

Hiya CC , sorry you've had to deal with some cra**y behaviour in the past . Believe me I know what that's like !! I'm glad we've cleared the air , and yeah these guys are a really cool bunch I think  8) but I agree ......yay , finally , another woman lurking around these forums !! I think these guys need us in their gaming lives , we are a pair of cool chicks ourselves , strong , outspoken and a little crazy ......perfect !!

I'm like you , I'd like to play games socially because I think that's the whole point of gaming in general , for me anyway . The trouble is I really only have my daughter who's interested in getting out a board game and playing , which is great , but it doesn't happen often enough , sadly . Which is why I think we are both attracted to this site because we get to read about gaming and game play and it nudge our interest in it , get our gaming fix via actual gamers :)

It would be great to post more though , like you said ....and I completely agree , I can post on a lot of things on here , but not a lot of that will have to do with gaming because I don't have the same experience or knowledge that these guys have . But if I see you posting I'll probably be more inclined to post things myself , strength in numbers and alla that , lol . Who knows , we might actually turn into gamers with valid things to say :) maybe it is time we went down the solo game playing route , just to get started ...but were to begin ???

Any thoughts anyone ...........

If she wasn't too busy playing WoW, I'd get Mrs.B to post on this thread. She is a member here, after all :-))

There are female gamers in Grogheads,  maybe I dont play wargames,  I like RP games, Wow, Pillars of Eternity etc, are you real?  sorry for coming on the wargamers section,  but I had to put my penny worth in,  and every one knows me as Mrs Bawb  so I am defo female  O:-)

Also there's Mrs. Darwin.

Re: cra**y behavior. I now have a new favorite word, and I shall use it.  :smitten:

Re: recommendations for beginners -- I know it's the wrong part of the forum, but I think I'd recommend getting into computer wargaming of various kinds first. There's a lot more support available, and (maybe?) a lot more variety, and typically a viable AI opponent to practice against when you can't find multiplayer. Plus multiplayer can be a lot easier to find on computer. The expense can be a lot less, too, allowing more gaming variety for the dollar spent (as a matter of logistic efficiency.)

Plus a lot of popular boardgames have good computer (or mobile) conversions. So if you learn how to play Catan or Space Hulk or Carcassone or Gothic Fleet or Blood Bowl or Small World or Kings of Israel or Magic the Gathering or Sentinels of the Multiverse or whatever, you can often transition directly into board play. Or if you see other people at it, you can comment appreciatively on what's going on.

Crazy Girl, Emeraldis - do you ladies play Euro/Amero games face to face with others?  If so, I'd be curious to know how that experience is for you all.  I very often see a number of women playing euro's at some of my gaming spots but rarely, if ever, see them playing "hardcore" wargames.  Interestingly though someone recently uploaded a video to the Geek of the SoCal ASL group tournament and lo' and behold; there's a female player being taught (and playing) ASL(SK).

Oh, and you all may find this interesting but here's me playing a variation of ASL with my girl...(for which these rough and mean men ridiculed me for as you can see here  :knuppel2: ):


http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=12575.msg328414#msg328414

Seriously, it's a rather fun and light-hearted take on Advanced Squad Leader.  The game rules and my updated graphics can be downloaded from the Geek here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/22083/sharks-and-jets

Quote from: undercovergeek on March 10, 2016, 01:48:48 PM
lies  ;D

i see everything

I see what you see and don't see. Especially when you think you see what you see.
My given name comes from a Nordi-German goddess of destructive and belligerent aspects of war.
That makes sense because it also means battle in Old Norse. (I like to cause havoc and chaos across the land. Well, maybe I am a troll.) She never leaves home without her helmet. Always has a sword, spear or shield. (I carry a knife.) She carries a torch or whip. (I carry matches.) She was a Valkyrie, ruled by Odin. Hahaha. I say who lives and who dies. Warfare is my game... I was meant for this!!! (Oh, delusions of grandeur setting in nicely. I really am crazy.)

Hey Toonces. It's a free country man.
You can do *waves hand in the air slowly for effect* whatever you want..

Hey Emeraldlis, take the wine and the spatula. Take the whole bottle...  I would  :)
These guys have been making me laugh. They didn't even know it.
I refuse to post anywhere else because I am not there yet.
I am working on it. I'm ready.

Hey bob48, stupid ? What's WoW?

Note that computer tactical and strategy gaming will help get into hardcore wargaming, too: you may get spoiled not having to do all the rules and calcs yourself, but if you learn how to play a hex pusher like the Decisive Campaigns engine or Gary Grigsby's monster WW2 games, you will at least have a foothold on trying to deal with something similar on a table.

WoW = World of Warcraft.

Some interesting tactical real-time and turn-based games connected to that franchise (which was originally loosely borrowed from Warhammer anyway), though not WoW itself of course.

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 10, 2016, 01:35:39 PM
Go make yourself some pancakes with a single Hersey kiss...
Yeah. *whispers* "I see and read everything.
But seriously, what do you guys recommend for a beginner?
Someone told me about Commander, but anything else?

The pancake picture was stolen from the Facebook page of one of the ladies my wife works with in the Great Dane Rescue organization. She and her daughters made them.
And I'm not really concerned with hiding it or I never would have posted it :)

As for things we can recommend to a beginner, are you playing on the table top or on a computer or on a console? Answers will obviously vary widely depending on how you prefer to play.

You mentioned tabletop games elsewhere, and since this is the wargaming area of our Forum, wherein we discuss tabletop games, there's a follow-up question:
Is there a particular historical period, battle, or personality that particularly appeals to you? 
No matter how easy a game is for a new player to grasp, if it isn't a topic in which you are interested, you're not likely to stick with it

Some off-the-cuff recommendations
WWII - Tank on Tank from LNLP
Ancients - Command & Colors from GMT
American War of Independence - Hold The Line from Worthington
Crusades - Crusader Rex from Columbia

GJK that's awesome .....how dare they taunt you so !!! ???

I love musical theatre, I love west side story, I love games .......it's a win , win , win for me  :smitten: in fact I was watching "sleeping with the enemy " a night or two ago and their is a segment in there of west side story , the guy was singing about being a jet ...well , duh , who wouldn't want to be a jet  :idiot2:
So I NEED that game !!

And I have no clue , but what is a euro game ? If it's carcasonne , then yes I've played that with a female group of friends and it was very cool . One of my friends is very tactical and strategic and she had us on the run a lot ! I'm more instinctive in the way I play , I follow my gut a lot , try to get into the mindset of my opposition to see which way they'll jump and then hopefully jump there before them  :D and my daughter well she's just crazy , she takes a lot of risks , sometimes they pay off sometimes not .....but hey who am I to deny her , her "strategy" if she thinks she can win !!  ;)

Also thanks Jason for all those suggestions, maybe an iPad version of a game may be the way to go and then if I like it I can get the board game , I don't have a home computer right now , mine died tragically .....It's now R.I.P in some land fill somewhere !

Well, it was a suggestion for CG, too, of course. :)

A Euro game is, um... hm. Carc isn't actually one.

Classically, a Euro game involves players each managing their own 'plot' or 'board' in competition with each other while sharing access to a central playing area. Agricola is a classic example. Each player manages a farming family, each with a separate board and cards and little resources and workers they can put on the common central town board every turn.

Broadly, a Euro game has expanded to be any non-combat management game with some kind of worker placement mechanic: each turn each player puts a set of workers somewhere and at the end of the turn (usually) the workers get picked up again. Stone Age would be a clear example. So would Caylus in a somewhat different way.

Nowadays, any non-combat management theme game might be called a Euro (or Amero depending on the theme). Puerto Rico is a fairly classic Euro game (I think), but the related San Juan card game might be very broadly called a Euro game by association, even though there is no worker placement at all.

The worker placement thing, come to think of it, is why Carc is generally thought of as a Euro game; but there's no real management involved. Lords of Waterdeep, on the other hand, is very much a Euro game.

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 02:37:23 PM

Quote
Well said! (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Flongblade%2FSmilies%2Fcheerswine.gif&hash=fa80af25b201a68d5276aefbb1473d4dc380d3e9)

Hey LB , are you awarding me with a spatula or a glass of wine .....'cause I'll take both !!! I could use a glass right now , come to think of it I'm sure I could find a use for that spatula too  ::)

Well, it's supposed to be a glass of wine, but you're free to interpret it as you wish :)

They include Carc. Meeples.

Carc absolutely is a Euro game.

Euro games are generally marked by 3 key characteristics

1- no elimination mechanic: everyone is playing all the way to the end

2- very little, if any, direct conflict: you're not trying to knock out other pieces; you're frequently maneuvering around each other

3- pasted-on theme: there's nothing inherent in the tile-laying mechanisms of Carc that screams "medieval France". The fact that they made a stone-age game with essentially the same mechanics, to go along with a Pacific Islander one and a colonize-America one tells you that the theme is irrelevant

Monopoly and most classic American board games fit all three descriptions, but are not regarded as Euros.

Although admittedly, Euros do have those characteristics, too.  ;)

I've heard some people say that Euros are non-combat games characterized by less random luck (apart from initial setup perhaps) and more pure strategy, but I can think of very few examples that don't involve some luck factors (beyond initial setup) along the way.

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 04:04:04 PM
GJK that's awesome .....how dare they taunt you so !!! ???

I love musical theatre, I love west side story, I love games .......it's a win , win , win for me  :smitten: in fact I was watching "sleeping with the enemy " a night or two ago and their is a segment in there of west side story , the guy was singing about being a jet ...well , duh , who wouldn't want to be a jet  :idiot2:
So I NEED that game !!

Everything that you need is at that link that goes to boardgamegeek.com (just scroll down to the 'files' section).   Print it out, grab a friend or friends, a bottle or two (or three or more) of wine (or your favorite adult beverage) and enjoy!

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 10, 2016, 05:11:04 PMMonopoly and most classic American board games fit all three descriptions, but are not regarded as Euros.

Bzzzzzzt - most American games are won by being the last man standing, as a result of knocking everyone else out of the game (Risk, Monopoly, Sorry, etc)

The other thing that you have with a lot of other American games is that they become memory/knowledge-based games, like Scrabble or Trivial Pursuit or pick-a-crappy-movie-game-from-the-90s, along with all the varying iterations of kids memory games and/or 'logic' games like Mastermind.

Quote from: GJK on March 10, 2016, 03:09:24 PMfor which these rough and mean men ridiculed me for as you can see here 

and for which you deserved every bit of it! ;)

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 04:04:04 PM
GJK that's awesome .....how dare they taunt you so !!! ???

What she said. Heck yeah! Score. You're #1 on the kool krazies list. I actually own the vinyl record of West Side Story soundtrack.
Too awesome. I think you just made my day. And no face to face game for me remember. I never made it to the table.

Quote from: GJK on March 10, 2016, 03:09:24 PM
for which these rough and mean men ridiculed me for as you can see here 

Btw, these guys that taunted you, they don't know what's up? You can't buy class, you just can't.
I refuse to call them men. That's a big word. Can't throw that around like that. You da man.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 10, 2016, 03:42:04 PM
The pancake picture was stolen from the Facebook page...

*gasp* A thief among us... No. I thought it was genius. Made it my wallpaper.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 10, 2016, 06:05:32 PM
Bzzzzzzt - most American games are won by being the last man standing...

Really? In this thread. What's wrong with being the last woman standing? I know it's a habit. I ain't mad at ya.
And I like memory game okay... I'm good at it. Those preschoolers have nothing on me.
But seriously, thank you all for your suggestions. All of you. Looks like I have a bit more research to do.

I need to pack my backpack because my spring break starts tomorrow and I feel like I have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD...
*skips away from whatever this is*

Oh dear ...what did I start ! Good to know what is and what isn't a euro game though , I've been wanting to know that for a while :)

GJK , thanks for letting me know how to get that game , I'll download and maybe post how I get on with it , maybe I'll play west side story in the background  :2funny: along with that glass of wine from LB ( yeah I think I'll take the wine there mate and leave the spatula for another time   ::)  ....maybe after downing the wine  ) 

Brant leave the guy alone ..........he's probably got some very dangerous pirouette moves going on !!  :D

Well, I am glad to see the pissy contest has moved on to more noble pursuits like defining what a war-game is and the diff between a Euro and Amero game is.

Other than that I have nothing noteworthy to say other than I like Goatfury's new handle.

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 10, 2016, 06:33:27 PMReally? In this thread. What's wrong with being the last woman standing?

Somewhere there's a joke about "women shouldn't be standing" but I won't be the one to make it  :uglystupid2:

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 10, 2016, 06:33:27 PMI think you just made my day. And no face to face game for me remember. I never made it to the table.

You know you guys are like 40 miles apart.  You could grab B_C and get some face-to-face gaming in some time at the FLGS.

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 06:40:21 PMhe's probably got some very dangerous pirouette moves going on !!  :D

That's the only time in history that anyone's put "GJK" and "pirouette" in the same thought!  :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 10, 2016, 08:16:15 PM

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 06:40:21 PMhe's probably got some very dangerous pirouette moves going on !!  :D

That's the only time in history that anyone's put "GJK" and "pirouette" in the same thought!  :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:

It's the kinder, gentler side of GJK....

Re: Risk -- I was thinking non combat games obviously. Oranges to oranges, not to cans of Mountain Dew.  :P

Re: Sorry -- you don't knock out your opponent and aren't the last one standing, even metaphorically. You can mess with your enemies a little, but it only sets them back.

Re: Monopoly -- I concede this one, technically, since the goal is to bankrupt everyone else. In practice I've never played a game that long, because we came up with different rules (first to X). I contend that the game as thus practiced (to avoid people losing their minds out of boredom and hatred ;) ), still wouldn't be considered a Euro game, though: no resource management, no worker placement, no separate boards with a common shared ground. A game can be called a Euro without all, or with only one, of those factors, but the factor would have to be quite prevalent -- which is why Carc and Catan tend to be classified as Euros, although they'd be on the fuzzy edge. Catan is an area control game with some resource management; Carc has a very important (if truncated) worker placement factor. Kingdom Builder and Small World are all about the area control, but not about resource management or meeples (much less independent player boards), so I don't usually see them counting, as two contrasting examples.


....LORD, FINALLY DONE ON BATTLEFLEET GOTHIC DOWNLOAD!

Um. See y'all next month...  :D

This thread is far more entertaining than anything tabletop gaming has to offer.  :crazy2:

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 10, 2016, 09:24:09 PM
This thread is far more entertaining than anything tabletop gaming has to offer.  :crazy2:

Well there's always Candy Crush on facebook if that's the kind of social gaming that you enjoy....  ^-^

Pretty soon his tabletop gaming will be Candy Land and Mousetrap

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwanna-joke.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2Fmen-womean-of-the-caitlyn-jenner.jpg&hash=bffc885234d350a9e1d6b7c52f203183d0eaad2b)

Quote from: Emeraldlis on March 10, 2016, 06:40:21 PM
Oh dear ...what did I start !

Nothing. They debate about it all the time... It was bound to come up.

Quote from: Windigo on March 10, 2016, 07:35:18 PM
Well, I am glad to see the pissy contest has moved on to more noble pursuits like defining what a war-game is and the diff between a Euro and Amero game is.

And I still don't know the difference. Sad.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 10, 2016, 08:16:15 PM

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 10, 2016, 06:33:27 PMReally? In this thread. What's wrong with being the last woman standing?

Somewhere there's a joke about "women shouldn't be standing" but I won't be the one to make it  :uglystupid2:

Did you set me up? Genius. If not, still funny.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 10, 2016, 08:16:15 PM
You know you guys are like 40 miles apart. You could grab B_C and get some face-to-face gaming in some time at the FLGS.

More like 30. Grab? Funny. He's going to be PO'd when he see's this.  Face-to-face time? Ha! Even funnier. He doesn't even have time for himself. Poor thing. He's really gonna mad at me now. *deep breath: tells herself, "Don't go into Dragon mode." More later.

Good luck Jason. Thanks for all your help.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 10, 2016, 09:24:09 PM
This thread is far more entertaining than anything tabletop gaming has to offer.  :crazy2:

Wait for it.... It gets better...

(Full scale Dragon mode. Oh bleep!)
B_C... #1 on my Liste de Merde. He put himself there on Friday, March 4, 2016 around noonish. *deep breath* I want to gut him, cut him, slice him, dice him, and mash him, douse in something flammable and then set him on fire. I'm a fire breathing Dragon.
Game on B_C, you f'd up now. I'm gonna get you when you least expect it.
Payback is a whole batch of biatches!!! No, I'm not mad. We're still friends. I don't hate you. I anathematize you...

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 11, 2016, 12:53:56 AM

Quote from: Windigo on March 10, 2016, 07:35:18 PMWell, I am glad to see the pissy contest has moved on to more noble pursuits like defining what a war-game is and the diff between a Euro and Amero game is.

And I still don't know the difference. Sad.

Maybe this helps?
http://grogheads.com/?podcast=the-grogcast-episode-18-part-1-of-2
http://grogheads.com/?podcast=the-grogcast-episode-18-part-2-of-2

Quote from: Crazy Girl on March 11, 2016, 12:53:56 AM

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 10, 2016, 08:16:15 PMYou know you guys are like 40 miles apart. You could grab B_C and get some face-to-face gaming in some time at the FLGS.

More like 30. Grab? Funny. He's going to be PO'd when he see's this.  Face-to-face time? Ha! Even funnier. He doesn't even have time for himself. Poor thing. He's really gonna mad at me now. *deep breath: tells herself, "Don't go into Dragon mode." More later.

I was referring to you and GJK being only 40 or so miles apart, based on the location you set in your profile.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 11, 2016, 06:44:33 AM

I was referring to you and GJK being only 40 or so miles apart, based on the location you set in your profile.

Me to Houston is more like 175-190 miles depending on which side of Houston we're talking about but if you ever get to the Austin area CG, let me know! 

Quote from: GJK on March 11, 2016, 08:51:35 AM

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 11, 2016, 06:44:33 AM

I was referring to you and GJK being only 40 or so miles apart, based on the location you set in your profile.

Me to Houston is more like 175-190 miles depending on which side of Houston we're talking about but if you ever get to the Austin area CG, let me know! 

d'oh! - my bad, I thought you were in the Houston area (I've made that mistake before, haven't I?)

Also, Texas is just big. At work we'll ask people who call looking for our products how far away they are from Dallas or Goldthwaite, and they patiently act like we've lost our minds.  :2funny:


I am now both scared for and envious of B_C.  >:D

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 11, 2016, 09:07:51 AM


d'oh! - my bad, I thought you were in the Houston area (I've made that mistake before, haven't I?)

I don't believe so - at least I don't remember that having happened before.  I'm actually 40 miles north of Austin in the country so JP- me and you could probably connect some time for some ftf gaming if you were so inclined. 

I just never make out to Houston but do visit my brother in Corpus every now and then.  I'd enjoy meeting B_C or CG sometime if/when I ever do get back to Houston.  Speaking of Dallas and Houston, each has a very active ASL community that is very newbie friendly if anybody in those areas was looking to learn or play some ASL.  ;)

Quote from: GJK on March 11, 2016, 09:53:02 AM

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 11, 2016, 09:07:51 AM


d'oh! - my bad, I thought you were in the Houston area (I've made that mistake before, haven't I?)

I don't believe so - at least I don't remember that having happened before.  I'm actually 40 miles north of Austin in the country so JP- me and you could probably connect some time for some ftf gaming if you were so inclined. 

I just never make out to Houston but do visit my brother in Corpus every now and then.  I'd enjoy meeting B_C or CG sometime if/when I ever do get back to Houston.  Speaking of Dallas and Houston, each has a very active ASL community that is very newbie friendly if anybody in those areas was looking to learn or play some ASL.  ;)

You anywhere near Georgetown GJK? I was just over there a few weeks ago. My brother lives in Austin and his in-laws are in Georgetown.

wow.... a non jargon word I have to look up.

anathematize - to curse someone

:smitten:

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 11, 2016, 10:19:02 AM


You anywhere near Georgetown GJK? I was just over there a few weeks ago. My brother lives in Austin and his in-laws are in Georgetown.

Yes, that's where I am.  PM me if you want and let me know the next time you'll be in the area!

Quote from: GJK on March 11, 2016, 09:53:02 AM
I'm actually 40 miles north of Austin in the country so JP- me and you could probably connect some time for some ftf gaming if you were so inclined.

No, sorry, I wasn't clear: we have distributors in Goldthwaite and Dallas. Our factory is in West TN, easily 9 hours from Dallas.  :-[

Quote from: Windigo on March 11, 2016, 10:34:49 AM
anathematize - to curse someone

:smitten:

:smitten: indeed! -- though I knew that word. I'm guessing she got it the same place I knew it: from church.

Which gives me less excuse to mix up being jealous and being envious, duhhhhh....  :uglystupid2:

I'm near Georgetown! But it's the Georgetown no one wants to be near.  :(

Quote from: GJK on March 11, 2016, 11:13:44 AM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 11, 2016, 10:19:02 AM


You anywhere near Georgetown GJK? I was just over there a few weeks ago. My brother lives in Austin and his in-laws are in Georgetown.

Yes, that's where I am.  PM me if you want and let me know the next time you'll be in the area!

I detect an ASL ambush.   :coolsmiley:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1541966/war-gaming-wife

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 13, 2016, 10:50:31 AM
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1541966/war-gaming-wife (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1541966/war-gaming-wife)

I'm just not quite sure what to respond to that....is it a hoax or truly a desperate ASL loving woman needing some love?  Does she clip her counters- that's what I really want to know....

Fishing is real popular around here.  In a few of the bachelor pads, there is a framed narrative that goes something like, 'Looking for woman with a boat who can cook, clean, do laundry, and skin a fish. Send pictures of the boat.'  I assume you're looking for pics of the counters ;)

Quote from: MetalDog on March 13, 2016, 01:44:39 PM
Fishing is real popular around here.  In a few of the bachelor pads, there is a framed narrative that goes something like, 'Looking for woman with a boat who can cook, clean, do laundry, and skin a fish. Send pictures of the boat.'  I assume you're looking for pics of the counters ;)

Men are visual by nature! 

Quote from: MetalDog on March 13, 2016, 01:44:39 PM
Fishing is real popular around here.  In a few of the bachelor pads, there is a framed narrative that goes something like, 'Looking for woman with a boat who can cook, clean, do laundry, and skin a fish. Send pictures of the boat.'  I assume you're looking for pics of the counters ;)

LMAO, when I read the posts on geek, I thought, "hmmm, wonder if she likes fishing." Sad and true

I maybe a lesbian who got knocked up by a married man, but this, um no...
http://www.geekwire.com/2016/microsoft-apologizes-hiring-schoolgirl-dancers-gdc-party-calls-unequivocally-wrong/ (http://www.geekwire.com/2016/microsoft-apologizes-hiring-schoolgirl-dancers-gdc-party-calls-unequivocally-wrong/)

Quote from: Windigo on March 11, 2016, 10:34:49 AM
wow.... a non jargon word I have to look up.

anathematize - to curse someone
:smitten:

Yeah, I know many of words not used in every day language. Every now and then I like to throw one for kicks.

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 11, 2016, 12:27:48 PM
:smitten: indeed! -- though I knew that word. I'm guessing she got it the same place I knew it: from church.

I did go to Sunday school for 12 years and I spend most of my summers with the nuns.
There was a stint in an all girls Catholic high school. I wish our uniforms did not look like those Microsoft female dancers.

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 11, 2016, 09:41:08 AM
I am now both scared for and envious of B_C.  >:D

No need to feel scared, envious/jealous for B_C. He probably thinks I'm too young and dumb to be a worthy opponent.
But the truth is, we both know my IQ level is too high for him and he is one of the smartest people I know.
Which makes me sad for the rest of humanity, because most people are dumb. Happy Fools Day!

Wait...Microsoft has female dancers?

Quote from: avrotim on April 03, 2016, 06:18:44 PM
Wait...Microsoft has female dancers?

The correct term would probably be "had".

For those of you that never head to the front page (or didn't even know we had one), here are some more thoughts

http://grogheads.com/?p=10737

Wow, great article.

With all the PC, progressive, professional victimhood nonsense going on today, I'd dismissed Sarkeesian and Quinn's claims out of hand. Reading that article showed that I may very well have jumped the gun on my assumptions. I might not immediately dive into researching the Gamersgate thing, but I also won't auto-sneer when I see their names in print.

Asked Tanya why she doesn't play wargames: "Because they're boring.  But it makes me happy to see you enjoying them".  That's my response.

Quote from: GJK on April 12, 2016, 10:24:59 PM
Asked Tanya why she doesn't play wargames: "Because they're boring.  But it makes me happy to see you enjoying them".  That's my response.

O0

Quote from: Ubercat on April 12, 2016, 09:37:57 PMWith all the PC, progressive, professional victimhood nonsense going on today, I'd dismissed Sarkeesian and Quinn's claims out of hand. Reading that article showed that I may very well have jumped the gun on my assumptions. I might not immediately dive into researching the Gamersgate thing, but I also won't auto-sneer when I see their names in print.

My point was that you can assume all you want, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with thinking they are professional victims (it's your opinion, so have whatever opinion you want).  But if you think that's the case, then craft a better argument in response.  You don't threaten them into submission with violence.

Posted an article on my facebook ppage..which grnated I didn't read but just saw the headline and the general jist seemed to be for us all to treat women equally and vice versa obviously, which I thought a fair thing to ask\say..well posting that was a mistake which I wont do again. Didn't expect the comments the post go. Had to delete it.

Some things really baffle me.

I would've been interested in seeing some of them

@bayonetbrant Well really not that much to see..just some didn't like it as it was seen  as political etc etc. As it just caused upset and could have turned into a flame war etc I decided to nip it in the bud. No one missed it. I had just read the heading and thought anything asking for equality was a good thing and so shared it.

I think forums are much better places to debate and discuss this sort of thing if it gets heated. A Facebook page geared towards game news prob isn't set up for this kind of heated discussion.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on March 05, 2016, 07:21:23 PM
if you're going to have women in decision-making positions - not through quota but through their own interest in the job and their promotions based on merit - why wouldn't you want them equally represented in the professional wargaming world that purports to help them with decision-making related to their jobs?

That's how I feel.

I saw that original article that fist started all this when it was first posted/reposted on Facebook.

Here's 2 degrees of separation for you:  you know me, and I have met the girl in question.  I bought a game from her when she was still at the game store where the harassment she reported happened.  The store is about 3-4 blocks for my house.

Its not a particularly inviting place.  You get the distinct impression when you walk in that if you are not a Magic player or a RPG, they really aren't interested in you.  The girl in question was a wee pixie of a thing with a grunge look going on.  She sold me the wrong game.

Quote from: avrotim on April 13, 2016, 11:21:23 AM
You get the distinct impression when you walk in that if you are not a Magic player or a RPG, they really aren't interested in you.

That's the impression I get from most game shops, but to be fair it's MTG that keeps most game shops afloat. That's the moneymaker and that's the primary market. Any kind of retail is a hard enough business, but running an FLGS is uber-niche.

Sure.  Its a bit of a catch 22 for them.  And these guys (well, its owned by just one guy) do stock a fairly impressive number of boardgames, and a few wargames (all GMT).  The thing is, the staff don't seem to know much about them.  I don't think its all that hard to keep up with news and to know at least the names of the bigger boardgame companies, if not the games themselves, but nobody bothers.

At least the owner now recognizes me and will give me a friendly hello, if he's around the day I go.

Yeah, it's pretty much the same story at the local shop in my area. The owner is a good guy and he tries to stock some variety, but all the interest is around Magic and a handful of other 'hot' games. He does let folks run some historical minis games in the shop, but the moneymaker is definitely MTG.

I imagine that it's very true that those little snot-nosed MTG playing dweebs do harass female gamers when they join in because it's probably the only interaction that the dweebs ever get with women and they release all of their pent-up adolescent anger towards them.  Same goes for the online gaming MMORPG crowd too I imagine.  I'd be shocked to hear that a table full of mid-40/50 yr old wargamers ever turned down a female that asked to join or treated her with anything but the utmost of respect.  IOW, it's not "gamers" per se but just the way that young men are raised these days.  I'm sure that you get the same thing in the work environment, when passing them on the street and in every day interaction no matter the activity.  And to me, that really stinks that young ladies have to deal with that - respect isn't something that is taught any more it appears to me.  I think that saying it's because it's a "clik" crowd of gamers only that behave this way (and because of the games) is just silly.

I enjoy watching the nerd mating rituals at my FLGSs. Reminds me of those nature shows with David Attenborough where the bird does his courtship dance and fails.  I hang out at 4 stores on a semi regular basis.  The one that caters to the hard core, old school wargamers and miniatures enthusiasts hardly ever gets any women in.  Can't say I'm surprised.  These guys come from a time where being a nerd meant taking a beating.  They're committed to the hobby and much less committed to showers or toothbrushes. God damn but too many of them reek!

The biggest store is the one that caters to MTG and is where I usually play X-Wing and Armada.  Fairly large number of girls there and there are two groups who are there almost every day.  Each group has a couple of very hot Asian girls in it (and some not very hot white girls.). Absolutely hilarious to watch nerds try to work up the courage to try to talk to them.  Said nerd will stare for far too long then finally work up the courage to make the approach only to have the courage fail when he's about 5-10 feet away then he'll do the sudden veer off to pretend to check out some fascinating modelling glue from ArmyPainter situated right behind the tables where the girls play.   One of the girls likes to dress in very slinky little outfits and flirt. Most of the guys she goes up to will just sort of stare at their shoes and mumble until she moves on. 

The third store caters to the Euro/social crowd and gets the largest number of women coming in.  There are quite a few regulars and a disproportionate number of them are lesbians.  They're usually the ones to scare off the new drop ins.  The store used to host a game night at a local cafe on Fridays and that brought in a lot of female players but that's stopped now unfortunately as the cafe is going under and has reduced their hours.

The fourth store is the RPG/comic store and is kind of a repeat of the MTG store.  Couple groups with some hot nerdy girls in them are there quite regularly.  Two of the girls tend to be quite domineering and bitchy and drive off new girls they don't like with passive/aggressive bullying techniques that are played off to look like support but are actually quite insulting. 

The common factor is that none of these chick ever want to play Bomber Command or Empire of the Sun, damn it!  (Although one hot Chinese girl who always comes in with a red silk shirt, no bra, and very pointy nipples loves to sit and watch Sails of Glory.  Throws me off my game it does.  Have to stare at my shoes and mumble til she goes away.)

Quote from: GJK on April 13, 2016, 06:30:36 PM
I imagine that it's very true that those little snot-nosed MTG playing dweebs do harass female gamers when they join in because it's probably the only interaction that the dweebs ever get with women and they release all of their pent-up adolescent anger towards them.  Same goes for the online gaming MMORPG crowd too I imagine. 

As a brief former MtG dweeb, I can say that at least two women thought it interesting enough to ask about.  Twenty years ago.  Because they didn't know what the fuck it was at first.  One actually demanded we teach her, because it "looked interesting", which we did.  It never stuck long-term (she was more of a console gamer type I suppose) but she wasn't mocked or anything.  Of course, I was in my early 20s so MtG was just an interlude between partying, when few people were over, and we weren't some mal-adjusted social troglodytes like some of the oddballs.

As for MMORPGs, I'd bet that genre easily has the highest amount of female gamers.  Having been an occasional MMO dweeb, including joining a handful of small "guilds" for various MMOs, I can say with certainty that the ladies were everywhere.  Many admit they refuse to tell other people that they are, indeed, female in-game for fear of being harassed by some teenage zit-faced jagoffs.  But there are many and they tend to get very vocal once that initial fear is allayed.

Actually, the two small MMO guilds I stuck with for long stretches were both run by women.  At a couple points, we had as many, or more, women as men in them.  We had more mature people, ages ranging from 20s to 40s, but they still kept things organized and running well without a bunch of the egotistical drama bullshit so often present in male-run orgs. 

I'm not sure, but I think SDR might have won the internet for today.   ???

Quote from: Toonces on April 14, 2016, 10:56:02 AM
I'm not sure, but I think SDR might have won the internet for today.   ???

Pics, or none of it happened.

I'm not the most socially adroit person out there but I have to imagine that a schlub like in their mid 40s taking photos of college aged chicks in a game store is probably going to be frowned upon and/or lead to a restraining order. 

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on April 14, 2016, 02:32:59 PM
I'm not the most socially adroit person out there but I have to imagine that a schlub like in their mid 40s taking photos of college aged chicks in a game store is probably going to be frowned upon and/or lead to a restraining order.

Not my problem, dude.

QuoteI'm not the most socially adroit person out there but I have to imagine that a schlub like in their mid 40s taking photos of college aged chicks in a game store is probably going to be frowned upon and/or lead to a restraining order.

Well, good thing I'm in my 50's then.

I once wargamed with a guy whose girlfriend could recite from memory, the armor penetration values of the German 88mm KwK 43.  She could even talk intelligently about the subtle design differences between various models of Sherman tanks.  The other guys in the gaming group were jealous...she was a "keeper."

Damn. You got THAT right.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on April 14, 2016, 02:32:59 PM
I'm not the most socially adroit person out there but I have to imagine that a schlub like in their mid 40s taking photos of college aged chicks in a game store is probably going to be frowned upon and/or lead to a restraining order.

...depends on the opening line, story that go with it, how fitting your are dressed to that story, ... and the bluff-skill modifier printed on yours avatar card  ^-^
(maybe happenstance street casting for web addvertisement for an upcomming game based on movie Hungergames or some Asian stuff in development, or wait ... now i got it: possible booth babe job for Brants Origins area... channel your inner Faceman not your inner Murdock ;-) )         

I met my wife through D&D.  My D&D group in College had more females than males.

I've migrated mostly to computer games.  I read anything I come across about gaming industry, markets, marketing strategy, etc....

Females probably play wargames less than strategy games, RPGs, LARPS, Adventure & Mystery Games on PC and the like.  The more hard core the wargame, the lower the female participation rate.  This is not a good/bad thing - it just is.  I've seen this at conventions, in stores, in articles, etc....

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on April 14, 2016, 02:56:13 PM

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on April 14, 2016, 02:32:59 PM
I'm not the most socially adroit person out there but I have to imagine that a schlub like in their mid 40s taking photos of college aged chicks in a game store is probably going to be frowned upon and/or lead to a restraining order.

Not my problem, dude.

LOL... yup

DVG has a female staff. And I think she's now a poster girl going by the number of posts about her.
https://mobile.facebook.com/dan.verssen.games/photos/a.10151300925661226.444045.268469891225/10153987464136226/?type=3&source=48

Quote from: jomni on May 05, 2016, 12:57:56 AM
DVG has a female staff. And I think she's now a poster girl going by the number of posts about her.
https://mobile.facebook.com/dan.verssen.games/photos/a.10151300925661226.444045.268469891225/10153987464136226/?type=3&source=48 (https://mobile.facebook.com/dan.verssen.games/photos/a.10151300925661226.444045.268469891225/10153987464136226/?type=3&source=48)

I'm going to be nice and not say what I think the intentions are there.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on April 13, 2016, 08:43:05 PM
The common factor is that none of these chick ever want to play Bomber Command or Empire of the Sun, damn it!  (Although one hot Chinese girl who always comes in with a red silk shirt, no bra, and very pointy nipples loves to sit and watch Sails of Glory.  Throws me off my game it does.  Have to stare at my shoes and mumble til she goes away.)

I'll bet you really just love playing Sails of Glory.  :2funny:

Quote from: GJK on May 05, 2016, 06:05:28 AM

Quote from: jomni on May 05, 2016, 12:57:56 AM
DVG has a female staff. And I think she's now a poster girl going by the number of posts about her.
https://mobile.facebook.com/dan.verssen.games/photos/a.10151300925661226.444045.268469891225/10153987464136226/?type=3&source=48 (https://mobile.facebook.com/dan.verssen.games/photos/a.10151300925661226.444045.268469891225/10153987464136226/?type=3&source=48)

I'm going to be nice and not say what I think the intentions are there.

You're probably right.