Hey,
I love DC: Barbarossa, but the Eastern has never been my favourite theatre. I also love CM:BN, but love chits more (and am more inclined to play squads as in the latter than divisions as in the former), and am a big fan of Order of Battle: Pacific, but it's on the other side of the world. Other games I find enjoyable are CC: Gateway to Caen and Command Ops 2, but my old age isn't suited for RTS. Unfortunately Tigers on the hunt doesn't have walls or bocage, so it's a no-go for me.
I'm fairly new to PC wargaming, so am at a bit of a loss... Ideally I'd like a CM:BN with the looks of Tigers on the hunt or a turn-based CO2. I'm inclined to buy Squad Battles: Eagles Strike, do you reckon that would fit the bill? And what other games should I be looking into, focused on the Western front (in particular the landings and operations in Normandy)?
Cheers!
P.S. Panzer Corps looks shiny, but I'd rather have chits :)
get choppers round this
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/281/details/Battles.In.Normandy
Edited to add: nice to see Geek independently confirming the BIN recommendation! 8)
I don't know of any wargame that has the political setups of DC3:Barbie. DC3 is of course a sequel of DC1, which was about the initial Nazi Blitzkrieg. But not about Fortress Europa generally nor Normandy in particular.
Nothing at the strategic level of DC3 (or the other DC games) will have walls and bocage, I expect -- although if anything that scale did simulate it, perhaps Gary Grigsby's War in the West? But even if a game did, it would be totally abstracted and under the hood, not something you'd be messing with.
When a closer operational scale is dialed in, there are some options closer to the strategic operational scale of Command Ops (which while they have plenty of Fortress Europa campaigns and missions, I don't think have Normandy or post-Normandy yet. The earliest in that area would be Market-Garden for them.) I don't think they'll have walls per se, but scale might be "grainy" enough to feature bocage in some hexes. I'm thinking specifically of SSG's Battles In Normandy (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/281/details/Battles.In.Normandy) (part of their "Decisive Battles" line, which eventually became something else as they evolved it.) Even there, though, I'm not sure it has the level of bocage you're after. Also it's a rather older game, and I don't know how it works on modern operating systems. Matrix has a bad habit of blithely selling problematically old software without warning, so I recommend asking around. But it features a bunch of scenarios and two grand campaigns from D-Day to Cobra and from Cobra to Falaise.
(I'm honestly getting a bit excited to play it right now. :smitten: :D Their maps are demonstrably an acquired taste -- some people can't stand them -- but I think they're gorgeous.)
For smaller scale that's kind of like Panzer General but not, and should feature a lot more walls and bocage (depending on the scenario or campaign of course), I will recommend as always Tiller's (actually Talonsoft's) Campaign Series (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/318/details/John.Tiller's.Campaign.Series), also available from Matrix with some updates from the original TS products. You'll be getting a lot more than that, of course -- the scenario and campaign selection in that set is ludicrously huge, and I fully expect modders have added to it -- but it features the fine level of detail you're after. (And if I recall correctly, the option to play with chit counters on a 2D board. Certainly the recent spiritual sequel for early-modern mideastern wars does!)
Again, anything with walls and bocage simply isn't going to play like the giant operational strategy of DC3:Barbarossa; nor will anything with walls and bocage feature the special political concepts of that level of operation. But you might get something a little like such a mix with the aforementioned "Battles in Normandy".
Hope that's helpful. O0
Thanks, will have a look, SSG is a name even I recognise :) (however, Matrix's prices are utterly ridiculous)
Thank you for the long post, Jason!
I guess I didn't explain myself well enough: I'm definitely more of a squad-level gamer, but DC:B just blew me away despite being at the division level.
Ah, the title of the post makes very little sense after reading what I wrote again.
What I meant was "what's a turn-based squad-level game for the Western front, preferably with Normandy and using chits, that's as good as DC:B?"
You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy.html). This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).
If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/WesternFrontPanzerCampaigns.html) games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.
Thanks! I've just bumped into CAOS, via spelk / sugarfreegamer.com:
http://www.ns2games.com/
Try gary grigsbys war in the west. You can check out some videos in the link of my signature.
It can be sectioned into three major parts, the battles into italy, the battle of normandy, the slow grind towards berlin. You can start and end the game at any of those points.
However the game is VERY complicated, and is considered to have one of the largest, if not THE largest learning curve of wargames. However it is divisional level
Quote from: pfig on March 29, 2016, 04:23:12 PM
Thanks! I've just bumped into CAOS, via spelk / sugarfreegamer.com:
http://www.ns2games.com/
Thanks for this - not even heard of it before ... need to take a look at this one ...
Quote from: panzerde on March 29, 2016, 04:08:45 PM
You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy.html). This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).
If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/WesternFrontPanzerCampaigns.html) games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.
I would second the new Normandy title from Tiller - this is very good and the platoon / company scale gives you larger battles but still with all the tactical elements.
I would say if Normandy and counters are your interest - this would definitely go on your list.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 30, 2016, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: panzerde on March 29, 2016, 04:08:45 PM
You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy.html). This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).
If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/WesternFrontPanzerCampaigns.html) games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.
I would second the new Normandy title from Tiller - this is very good and the platoon / company scale gives you larger battles but still with all the tactical elements.
I would say if Normandy and counters are your interest - this would definitely go on your list.
Thank you all - I actually picked up their Eagles Strike last night, and had a blast after dinner. As a bonus, it runs perfectly well under Wine on my Mac laptop - I was going to get Battles of Normandy and Normandy '44 (what JTS call Panzer Campaigns Normandy) just to say thank you for this, glad you're both recommending them.
Cheers!
Quote from: Hofstadter on March 29, 2016, 06:36:32 PM
Try gary grigsbys war in the west. You can check out some videos in the link of my signature.
It can be sectioned into three major parts, the battles into italy, the battle of normandy, the slow grind towards berlin. You can start and end the game at any of those points.
However the game is VERY complicated, and is considered to have one of the largest, if not THE largest learning curve of wargames. However it is divisional level
Thanks! This is definitely on my list, in a couple of years :)
Quote from: pfig on March 30, 2016, 06:02:12 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on March 30, 2016, 01:53:19 PM
Quote from: panzerde on March 29, 2016, 04:08:45 PM
You might also take a look at John Tiller Software's Battles of Normandy (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/PanzerBattles/BattlesOfNormandy.html). This is a chit-pusher, platoon-scale game that is more or less an update of the older Tiller Campaign Series games. I like the Campaign Series games a great deal, but until Matrix gets around to upgrading the WW2 games the way they've upgraded Campaign Series: Middle East, I'm finding them hard to play (counters are too small!).
If you're more interested in operational level games try the JTS Panzer Campaigns West Front (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/WesternFrontPanzerCampaigns.html) games. Very similar engine to the Battles in Normandy game, but at a company/battalion level.
I would second the new Normandy title from Tiller - this is very good and the platoon / company scale gives you larger battles but still with all the tactical elements.
I would say if Normandy and counters are your interest - this would definitely go on your list.
Thank you all - I actually picked up their Eagles Strike last night, and had a blast after dinner. As a bonus, it runs perfectly well under Wine on my Mac laptop - I was going to get Battles of Normandy and Normandy '44 (what JTS call Panzer Campaigns Normandy) just to say thank you for this, glad you're both recommending them.
Cheers!
As the lead designer on Tiller's Panzer Battles of Normandy, thanks for considering our title.
We've been fortunate it's been so well received and recommended by others.
David
Quote from: Strela on April 01, 2016, 07:04:36 AM
We've been fortunate it's been so well received and recommended by others.
Fortunate be damned. You did a bloody good job with it, which is why it has been well received and recommended. O0
What I want to know is how far a campaign game for the Kursk game is faring? You mooted it a while back as something that was being looked into. Playing the battles individually loses the continuity of having a campaign game, making it all feel like isolated actions, which of course it wasn't. Pretty please... :)
Quote from: Strela on April 01, 2016, 07:04:36 AM
As the lead designer on Tiller's Panzer Battles of Normandy, thanks for considering our title.
We've been fortunate it's been so well received and recommended by others.
David
Ah, as Boggit said, nothing to do with fortune! Thank you for some really good times so far, I look forward to what's to come.
Damn you Boggit!
I now need to add it to this list that was posted at the Blitz this week;
http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=69449&page=2
To help you all I will give you an idea of what is being worked on with our small team;
Patch 1.01 for Normandy. We're (slowly) getting programming support from John. Most of this is ready to go, pending John's input.
Patch 1.02 for Kursk - this will port over the latest fixes and changes from Normandy 1.0/1.01 to this title
Updated Game manual and charts - this will be a continuing work in process. An update will come with the above two patches.
Panzer Battles 3. We have given enough hints on this already but the good news it is progressing. We have just scrapped the game maps we had and are completely redoing them by hand (like Normandy). We won't be using the process that was used in Kursk where the Panzer Campaigns map was converted to build the Panzer Battles map. All the orders of battle are in place as are many of the game graphics. The scenario designers are busy reading up on their areas of responsibility and hopefully work on the scenarios will begin soon. We will again need further programming from John as there will be some unique features required for this title. I'm really excited about this title and it really is looking fabulous.
Panzer Battles Demo. We're investigating whether we can do a demo to showcase the game system. This could be really cool with some of the ideas thrown out there but is not yet committed to. I believe if we get going you could see this, this year.
Armor Battles 1. Mentioned above and not yet committed to. A fair bit of base work is done - you can see some of the prototype graphics in this thread, but things like the map are to be scrapped and redone, not to mention no scenarios have even been thought of yet.
An unnamed project for the US Army using this game scale.
I hope you get the idea, but we're trying to provide both support for our existing titles as well as build new product. We're listening to you, but are a tiny team of volunteers who do this all in our spare time. I'm really impressed with the community here at the Blitz and many of our testers and in some cases team members have come from the ranks of the willing who frequent these forums.
I'll see when we can add something for the Kursk campaign -no promises on timing though. We will include the campaign exe in the next patch so user campaigns can be built...
David
Purely selfishly, bugger all the modern stuff. What you do for WWII is magic and I'll buy any bloody thing you create.
Your commitment to mapping and OOB is rivaled only by the lunatics over at WWI EF and WF and that's saying a great deal.
REMIS VELISQUE!!
I'm with Jim. My only complaint about Panzer Battles is that I don't have more theaters/periods to play yet. This is an astonishingly good platoon-scale game.
SEMPER UBI SUB UBI!!!
Quote from: panzerde on April 02, 2016, 10:49:49 PM
I'm with Jim. My only complaint about Panzer Battles is that I don't have more theaters/periods to play yet. This is an astonishingly good platoon-scale game.
SEMPER UBI SUB UBI!!!
Doug,
We aim to please...! 8)
You just need to be patient...!
David
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2Fb17%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520453.jpg&hash=37c0a1f1d34ef311b2b66d2b566c5b142a4abfea)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F26a%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520454.jpg&hash=0576f95381ac9f7f36aa8e88295623888106cfa0)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2Fb1d%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520428.jpg&hash=3b757bb0ae43422c61f5dd79c85ae5c619425206)
Hi David,
While I love a good demo (oh CM Final Blitzkrieg!), I have to say that what made me pull the trigger on Normandy were the designer notes and getting started PDFs, they are SO good.
Again, thank you!
I know you guys are working hard at it David! I'm honestly amazed at how much you've done already. Plus, it isn't like I've actually played every single scenario in Kursk and Normandy, yet.
None of which keeps me from wanting North Africa, Italy, Bulge, Market Garden, Westwall, Lorraine, Sicily.... :)
Looks like its going to be battles for Tobruk. Sweet.
Why does no one do the pacific ? Would say this engine is perfect for some large scale island invasion scenarios ...
On a related note, DC Barbarossa will soon be available on Steam. Sometimes this month in fact.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 07, 2016, 04:15:46 PM
Why does no one do the pacific ? Would say this engine is perfect for some large scale island invasion scenarios ...
Zulu,
It's not forgotten ;)
We're slowly covering off the various theatres (as per Doug's requests!)
We have now done Eastern Front, Western Front and it's pretty obvious we're off to the Desert next - so guess where would be pretty high in the consideration stakes for the fourth title...
David
RangerX3X posts up DC Blitzkrieg Warsaw to Paris, Netherlands scenario
http://rangerx3x.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/decisive-campaigns-warsaw-to-paris.html
Quote from: Strela on April 08, 2016, 09:35:59 PM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 07, 2016, 04:15:46 PM
Why does no one do the pacific ? Would say this engine is perfect for some large scale island invasion scenarios ...
Zulu,
It's not forgotten ;)
We're slowly covering off the various theatres (as per Doug's requests!)
We have now done Eastern Front, Western Front and it's pretty obvious we're off to the Desert next - so guess where would be pretty high in the consideration stakes for the fourth title...
David
Strela that would be fantastic. Please make sure it goes to the
top of the list. O0
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 09, 2016, 04:21:55 AM
Strela that would be fantastic. Please make sure it goes to the top of the list. O0
There is always work going on, but this should show we do mean it...!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F0d6%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520455.jpg&hash=d49fc0082c0ff828af4a55af59a37626a1f59339)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F346%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520456.jpg&hash=fcec951d40521b460d20f203cfefae112a98c97f)
David
Quote from: Strela on April 11, 2016, 09:23:36 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on April 09, 2016, 04:21:55 AM
Strela that would be fantastic. Please make sure it goes to the top of the list. O0
There is always work going on, but this should show we do mean it...!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F0d6%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520455.jpg&hash=d49fc0082c0ff828af4a55af59a37626a1f59339)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F346%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520456.jpg&hash=fcec951d40521b460d20f203cfefae112a98c97f)
David
Oh yes... thanks for the tease.... now get back to work ... :2funny:
Quote from: Pinetree on April 04, 2016, 12:29:39 AM
Looks like its going to be battles for Tobruk. Sweet.
Quite a time frame (since it looks like 8 MG Bn is there and so is the NZ Maori Battalion and the Free French...that's like April 1941 to June 1942!!)...very nice.
Quote from: Strela on April 02, 2016, 05:59:37 PM
Patch 1.01 for Normandy. We're (slowly) getting programming support from John. Most of this is ready to go, pending John's input.
This inspired me to look into Panzer battles Normandy. And, wow! Am I glad I did. It is a wonderful game and I bought it.
The Bluecoat Scenario is fantastic. Naturally, I will bump the 23rd Hussars and the Monmouths up to A level morale, but other than that, it looks quite wonderful.
Okay, also I can't have the Green Howards at C level, but that's another story, another division, another part of the world.
Quote from: pfig on April 03, 2016, 06:32:58 AM
Hi David,
While I love a good demo (oh CM Final Blitzkrieg!), I have to say that what made me pull the trigger on Normandy were the designer notes and getting started PDFs, they are SO good.
Again, thank you!
Yep. The PDFs were enough to convince me that the game was a masterpiece.
There will be updates to the PDF's with the imminent patch.
We have redone the User manual to make it more logical as well as add some of the rules that were more obscure or not clearly called out - smoke usage is an example.
The Getting Started has also been updated with additional pages covering the campaign system as well as adding more 'old world' printable charts and tables. Here is an example of one of the pages of the charts;
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F8c0%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520452.jpg&hash=9430d5bf2c39d3d09a42381ad8288e0b32d0620d)
Add to that scenario updates, bug fixes, system enhancements and additional graphic changes such as alternate terrain and this will be a decent patch...
David
Quote from: Strela on April 23, 2016, 07:56:29 PM
There will be updates to the PDF's with the imminent patch.
We have redone the User manual to make it more logical as well as add some of the rules that were more obscure or not clearly called out - smoke usage is an example.
The Getting Started has also been updated with additional pages covering the campaign system as well as adding more 'old world' printable charts and tables. Here is an example of one of the pages of the charts;
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Ffiles%2F8c0%2FPB%2520Graphics%2520452.jpg&hash=9430d5bf2c39d3d09a42381ad8288e0b32d0620d)
Add to that scenario updates, bug fixes, system enhancements and additional graphic changes such as alternate terrain and this will be a decent patch...
David
Very nice, though I have to say that the game in its current state is still one of my most favorite games EVER.
Quote from: Strela on April 23, 2016, 07:56:29 PM
There will be updates to the PDF's with the imminent patch.
We have redone the User manual to make it more logical as well as add some of the rules that were more obscure or not clearly called out - smoke usage is an example.
The Getting Started has also been updated with additional pages covering the campaign system as well as adding more 'old world' printable charts and tables. Here is an example of one of the pages of the charts;
Add to that scenario updates, bug fixes, system enhancements and additional graphic changes such as alternate terrain and this will be a decent patch...
Can't wait - these tables are a treat to have on the iPad next to the monitor :)
Quote from: MengJiao on April 25, 2016, 08:28:15 PM
Very nice, though I have to say that the game in its current state is still one of my most favorite games EVER.
Same - I've been bouncing from Eagles Strike to Normandy and back, and really appreciating the different scales, and how they make me relate to the games and characters.