Hopefully this will be a more successful CMx2 thread. I consider this "my" thread and if some of you want to go into 1:1 tennistrolling do it elsewhere.
Maybe it is because I have too much of a gap now, but I would be curious whether those who played CMx2 or a demo recently could describe in detail which moments are really the fun in there. Maybe with screenshots. Describe what the game does when to get you into "The Zone", where The Zone could mean something like the psychological "Flow" graph where challenge and frustration over time need to be
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgamasutra.com%2Fdb_area%2Fimages%2Ffeature%2F166972%2Ffigure1.png&hash=d3abded21e2f26d1d7f1dc5ecdc4496ef53838b4)
I would be particularly interested in those who recently started, including those who just tried the CMFB demo as the first CMx2 game.
I will post my own thoughts but don't want to do so in the opening post so that I don't prime this.
CMx2 is absolutely no fun at all
Never has a thread been more doomed...
Does CMx2 include CM: Red Thunder....? I find it to be a lot of fun regardless of whether it does or doesn't.
Quote from: Rayfer on May 01, 2016, 05:35:56 PM
Does CMx2 include CM: Red Thunder....? I find it to be a lot of fun regardless of whether it does or doesn't.
All CMx2.
What kind of activity in there brings you into that "Zone" where you have flow?
Like someone once said about jazz, if you need it explaining then you're never going to get it.
If you don't like CMx2 games go do something else.
Fun: the details in all their glory
Not fun: too many units (large battles). Wish there was automation
Fun: devise intelligent tactical plans
Not fun: your troops don't know how execute them and die
Fun: immersive missions
Not fun: casualties carry over and you are not able to see the end of the camapgin.
Fun: extensive order of battle
Not Fun: broken quick battle. Still after all these years. Well it has gotten better regarding force selection but AI selected and controlled forces are still hit or miss with miss most of the time. Quick battle is good for multiplayer.
SUPER NOT FUN: ordering DiSMOUNT when you actually want to UNLOAD!
Quote from: Father Ted on May 01, 2016, 05:49:35 PM
Like someone once said about jazz, if you need it explaining then you're never going to get it.
If you don't like CMx2 games go do something else.
But Jazz is actually entertaining ;)
Quote from: Redwolf on May 01, 2016, 05:40:10 PM
Quote from: Rayfer on May 01, 2016, 05:35:56 PM
Does CMx2 include CM: Red Thunder....? I find it to be a lot of fun regardless of whether it does or doesn't.
All CMx2.
What kind of activity in there brings you into that "Zone" where you have flow?
I find it challenging but not impossibly difficult. Unlike others, I find the quick battle piece quite well done. It's what I play the most. The game allows me to adjust difficulty level to offset my lack of skill in this type of tactical game. I've had many 'aha' moments when the AI (which the highly skilled players seem to complain about, but the tactically challenged like myself don't) flanked my position or nailed me with a well placed artillery barrage.
Quote from: Father Ted on May 01, 2016, 05:08:16 PM
CMx2 is absolutely no fun at all
There is that. I always play jazz when I play. I mean I play jazz that was recorded long ago. CM2 is more like that catalan remix of argentine yodling from the 1920s, with much crisper rhythms and lots of sampling and resampling.
I play in real time so the fun comes in those Holy Shit moments when you ignore the battle as a whole and stalk a Panther with a 6 pdr or rescue a tank crew lost in the woods and so on. For me its sort of an adventure game.
I love the game/games even though I suck at them. I swear my little troops sometimes give me the finger when I order them forward.
Love it.
Adore it.
In since CMx1 and I ain't going nowhere.
It is, for me, the best series on the PC without exception. The only two that come close are the Tiller Napoleonics (duh) and, to my utter shock, the Tiller WWI PzC games.
I'm locked in a duel with Doug over some crumby little copse on the Western Front and matters couldn't be more tense and wonderful. I've given no small amount of thought to comments hereabout that people always want to be Rommel when this game is built at the level of the company commander. Medium to tiny scenarios, well designed ones anyway, are simply magnificent.
Quote from: Cyrano on May 01, 2016, 11:26:59 PM
Love it.
Adore it.
+1 I could write a lengthy treatise on CM's deficiencies and what should be done to fix them (... don't worry, I won't) -- but at the end of the day, I probably play CMx2 more than any other games on my harddrive.
Quote from: MengJiao on May 01, 2016, 09:33:02 PM
Quote from: Father Ted on May 01, 2016, 05:08:16 PM
CMx2 is absolutely no fun at all
There is that. I always play jazz when I play. I mean I play jazz that was recorded long ago. CM2 is more like that catalan remix of argentine yodling from the 1920s, with much crisper rhythms and lots of sampling and resampling.
I play in real time so the fun comes in those Holy Shit moments when you ignore the battle as a whole and stalk a Panther with a 6 pdr or rescue a tank crew lost in the woods and so on. For me its sort of an adventure game.
I don't know if I really do any zone type stuff in most games. I think my zone-ey-est gaming moments come when I'm revising the rules for a board game. Other than that, I'm usually keeping a certain analytic distance from the game and games that don't allow for much of that (like the one where you kill all the Orcs in Mordor....for me it was just fun til I saw how the whole thing was likely to go) don't hold my interest for long.
CM2 has held my interest for almost a decade by allowing a good among of ironic/analytic distance in how I get to play it.
I wasn't talking about the difficulty level with regards to playing the game well to -say- win a scenario.
What I meant is - how do I improve the balance of frustrating aspects with the aspects that give a positive thrill?
And I don't want this to turn into another thread of listing the frustrating aspects in CM or CMx2 or how to avoid them. I want the other side.
What I am asking is, what is the thrill, where does it appear for your when playing? And I mean you personally, not what you recommend to others they do.
For me, and this even goes back to the original series, the thing that really gets the juices flowing is playing against a human and the rush of feeling that I have done something clever to get the upper hand in a situation. When I evaluate a situation and come up with a plan and it works. That's what puts me in The Zone. When that's happening, hours of playing can happen and it feels like 5 minutes. I can't wait for the next "movie."
Quote from: Redwolf on May 02, 2016, 06:16:09 PM
What I am asking is, what is the thrill, where does it appear for your when playing? And I mean you personally, not what you recommend to others they do.
I'm thrilled when unexpected but interesting things happen in real time when I modify a scenario. For example, I carefully built a very nice road so that the Germans could redeploy if they wanted across the front of the big hill in Chaos at Ferme Denderhove. I also added a lot of Panthers. For some reason I though they would go for the nearest objective -- a reasonable frontal drive and easy meat for a dozen Panthers.
But this didn't happen. No sooner had I started the game than the Panthers trundled down the redeployment road and got shot to bits before my horrified eyes...and all their flak and engineers too. Interesting, fast, very explosive and instructive. Maybe a bit thrilling.
Quote from: Redwolf on May 02, 2016, 06:16:09 PM
What I am asking is, what is the thrill, where does it appear for your when playing? And I mean you personally, not what you recommend to others they do.
Personally, I'm not sure "thrill" really comes into it. Maybe sometimes when I've made a commitment of some valued armour or finally launched an infantry assault and hit the "done" button - akin to placing a big bet at poker, I suppose. What generally keeps me coming back is the generation of a narrative during each game - I want to see what will happen to my pixeltruppen. I inwardly cheer on those who do well, castigate those who fail to stick to their task, and feel guilty about those who are unnecessarily put in harm's way through my ineptitude.
I also like the WEGO mechanic which allows me to scoot all over the battlefield and inspect every bit of action, yet never lose sight of the big picture.
Actually, one thrill which I think is often overlooked in CM discussions is in its viscerally kinetic actualisation of armour (or ATG) v armour gunnery. Other games may have big explosions, but to my mind CM gives the best impression of a heavy, high velocity projectile impacting armour plate.
Quote from: Father Ted on May 11, 2016, 02:54:55 PM
Actually, one thrill which I think is often overlooked in CM discussions is in its viscerally kinetic actualisation of armour (or ATG) v armour gunnery. Other games may have big explosions, but to my mind CM gives the best impression of a heavy, high velocity projectile impacting armour plate.
I would agree with this. Even CM's animations please me in this regard, like the way the tank chassis rocks back and forth after letting loose with a HEAT round. I highly recommend downloading one of the excellent sound mods to add to the effect -- the HQS "High-Quality Sounds" mod in particular. The reports from the big caliber guns are *loud* and very satisfying, as are the tank engine idling / in motion sounds. Fantastic.
(This is also one of the big weaknesses of the Graviteam Tactics games -- the sound effects are anemic and tinny, really pretty lousy. There is a sound mod or two out there but nothing that solves the problem. I really don't think you can underestimate the importance of great sound effects in enhancing a game experience and making it as visceral as possible.)
In terms of what I find exciting about CM -- another thing that always draws me in is the variety of the different modules. Even within the confines of WW2, to me, Red Thunder 'plays' and feels very different from Battle for Normandy and Fortress Italy, etc.. I honestly couldn't pick any one of them over the other -- they're each unique and I love what each of them has to offer. (Arguably the 'feel' of Battle for Normandy and Final Blitzkrieg is the closest -- but the snow environment of FB adds a lot.)
I just the other night fired up Black Sea after a long break of not playing it, and all I could think was, "Man, this game is fantastic. Why haven't I played it in months?" That's pretty much how I feel whenever I pick up one of the modules after not playing for a bit.
Yes, I admit I am an unreconstructed CM fanboy. The games have plenty of flaws and I'm by no means indifferent to them -- I do think the series should continue to evolve and that there are some major shortcomings that need to be addressed. But they are all permanent fixtures on my HD.
Like an intense shooter game like Battlefield, CM makes me go through similar surges of glory, fear, frustration and happiness, though in a different manner.
Where in BF these surges are often very much in the moment, in CM I have these surges over longer periods of time.
First making a plan, than letting it come to fruition over several minutes and then the outcome hits me in the face (well usually), or something unexpected happened!
Its great and not many games provoke these intense feelings with me.
I love cm games but don't play them enough lately because they seem so laborious now. I think what would bring me back in a big way would be would be coop mp or 6 on 6 mp. This way you could play battalion of brigade size engagements with out complete micromanage night mare. A big time feature like this would be a game changer for the engine, but it's not even remotely on the radar.
Quote from: sandman2575 on May 11, 2016, 03:19:41 PM
In terms of what I find exciting about CM -- another thing that always draws me in is the variety of the different modules. Even within the confines of WW2, to me, Red Thunder 'plays' and feels very different from Battle for Normandy and Fortress Italy, etc.. I honestly couldn't pick any one of them over the other -- they're each unique and I love what each of them has to offer. (Arguably the 'feel' of Battle for Normandy and Final Blitzkrieg is the closest -- but the snow environment of FB adds a lot.)
I just the other night fired up Black Sea after a long break of not playing it, and all I could think was, "Man, this game is fantastic. Why haven't I played it in months?" That's pretty much how I feel whenever I pick up one of the modules after not playing for a bit.
Yes, I admit I am an unreconstructed CM fanboy. The games have plenty of flaws and I'm by no means indifferent to them -- I do think the series should continue to evolve and that there are some major shortcomings that need to be addressed. But they are all permanent fixtures on my HD.
+1
I've just finished playing a Red Thunder scenario AD - Amongst the Ruins - a tiny scenario downloaded from A Few Good Men. But it was brilliant, full of tension, and atmosphere. I had several close calls, and plenty of good firefights. It reminded me why I love CMx2 so much.
Playing a fairly large CMFB scenario PBEM with a long-time opponent who, for a change, is not Doug (yeah, weird, I know). I'm rolling three platoons of Shermans over a hill a bit over a kilometer from a village. I figure there's no way anybody would even try a shot from that distance. I was, again, wrong. He's got a STUG stuck in behind a low wall and the gunner is clearly playing "shooting gallery" as he takes tippy-tap shots at ludicrous range at my tanks' profiles. This, at the end of the turn, leaves me with a decision: turn and play the game back, or keep rolling and dare him to hit me? I'm looking forward to the next turn to see if I chose poorly.
Nope, nothing like CMx for me.
Quote from: Cyrano on May 11, 2016, 09:44:38 PM
Playing a fairly large CMFB scenario PBEM with a long-time opponent who, for a change, is not Doug (yeah, weird, I know). I'm rolling three platoons of Shermans over a hill a bit over a kilometer from a village. I figure there's no way anybody would even try a shot from that distance. I was, again, wrong. He's got a STUG stuck in behind a low wall and the gunner is clearly playing "shooting gallery" as he takes tippy-tap shots at ludicrous range at my tanks' profiles. This, at the end of the turn, leaves me with a decision: turn and play the game back, or keep rolling and dare him to hit me? I'm looking forward to the next turn to see if I chose poorly.
Nope, nothing like CMx for me.
If you're position is relatively safe and he keeps shooting I would gamble and try to deplete his ammo.
Quote from: sandman2575 on May 02, 2016, 09:42:31 AM
Quote from: Cyrano on May 01, 2016, 11:26:59 PM
Love it.
Adore it.
+1 I could write a lengthy treatise on CM's deficiencies and what should be done to fix them (... don't worry, I won't) -- but at the end of the day, I probably play CMx2 more than any other games on my harddrive.
Yeah.
I enjoy playing it, but like you recognize it is far from perfect. Each iteration has just enough new features and fixes that I don't abandon hope altogether.
Quote from: Skoop on May 11, 2016, 06:16:43 PM
I love cm games but don't play them enough lately because they seem so laborious now.
That perfectly describes the scenario design side of things as well.