My initial gut reaction? Its a God damn fucking disgrace!
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What do you think when you see this photo? Are you thrilled to see two military mothers breastfeeding their children (one a toddler and the other a set of twins!) or are you horrified that they would do such a thing and bring disgrace to the uniform they are wearing? Would this photo have the same effect if it was two civilian mothers?
There is a lot of controversy surrounding any mother who breastfeeds in public these days. It is apparent from reading the news and other media that more and more women everywhere are breastfeeding in public, and as a result many are being asked to leave establishments that run the gamut from restaurants to pools to the local Target. Many of these women are merely trying to feed their very hungry babies and have every right to do so without fear of ridicule or reprisal. But what about the challenges that women in uniform face when breastfeeding in public (as in on base/post)? Not only do they have the associated 'stigma' that surrounds ANY woman who chooses to breastfeed in public, and the perceived sexualization/sexual act that MUST be happening, but they also face the very real problem that there are no regulations that specify whether or not a military member in uniform is even permitted breastfeed. And unfortunately that means that women are left to the mercy of whoever is in charge at the base clinic, hospital, post exchange or child development center.
Consider this very common scenario: Mom gave birth 8 weeks ago and is now back at work. She is no longer on convalescent leave and so is in uniform. Her baby has a well-baby visit at the base clinic for his shots and a check-up and the appointment is during working hours. Mom leaves her workplace in uniform (remember, she is NOT on leave so she must be in uniform to be seen at the clinic) and takes her child to the clinic, once there her baby is hungry and so mom decides to feed him while waiting for the appointment. She discreetly unbuttons her uniform from the bottom up and begins feeding her baby. No skin is showing at all and the baby is content and not crying or making a fuss. What is the problem here? Apparently a big one as quite a number of active duty women have been told that they cannot breastfeed in uniform and must stop immediately, or that they need to feed the baby via bottle, or must move to restroom or private area. Reasons given include that it is against military regulations, is not maintaining good order and discipline, or just because the person in charge doesn't care for breastfeeding. Lets also note that nothing is said to active duty mom also sitting in the waiting room bottle-feeding her baby. That is perfectly OK and in fact is often what the breastfeeding mother is told that she must do. There is a double-standard, much like in the civilian world, that bottle-feeding in public is seen as OK but breastfeeding in public is not.
The crux of the problem is whether or not it is ever OK to breastfeed in uniform. The main argument seems to be that some military personnel feel that there is no way, discreet or not, that one can maintain a professional military bearing while nursing in uniform. Period. It is felt that breastfeeding an infant automatically makes the woman 'out-of-uniform', this is particularly true if she uses any type of blanket or covering thrown over the baby to 'hide' the actual act of breastfeeding, or 'rucks' up her shirt, unbuttons her overblouse to breastfeed. Some, women in particular, say that breastfeeding a baby in uniform undermines their authority as it is a very nurturing and feminine act and they need to be seen by their personnel in the capacity of an authority figure and not as a mother. Other arguments against breastfeeding in uniform include the regulations against PDA and cite that one is not allowed to hold hands or kiss in uniform and that breastfeeding is similar. In all cases, the personnel making the arguments state that it has nothing to do with the sexualization of the female breast (although I would argue that), but rather is simply a matter of maintaining discipline and good order and appearance. These views come from both men and women, supervisors and non-supervisors alike, lest you think that it is coming from old-school military members who believe that women shouldn't be in the military at all let alone breastfeeding babies. I have seen this attitude while writing my book and on various FB pages when a photo of a mother in uniform was shown breastfeeding. I continue to be surprised at the numbers of women in the military who have told me that they would never even consider breastfeeding in uniform as it is not considered proper to do so and would go against military etiquette, good-order and discipline. Many said it just plain felt 'wrong' to do so.
Given that we are instructed that holding our children while in uniform is not maintaining a professional appearance, I never thought that breastfeeding my child while in uniform would be allowed. I have, but ONLY in my home returning from work and in the doctor's office in the private room (not waiting area). Petty Officer 2nd Class, USN
But lets get down to the facts here:
There are NO polices or regulations in any of the military branches that either approve OR disapprove of breastfeeding in uniform.
Let me say that another way: There are no policies or regulations that permit or deny a mother's right to breastfeed in uniform. It is left up to each individual command and/or superior officer or senior enlisted to determine if breastfeeding in uniform will be permitted, usually on a case-by-case basis. Meaning for many women in the military they will never know if today is the day they get reported for breastfeeding while sitting in the clinic waiting room or nursing their baby at the base daycare. This can and is a major deterrent for many women considering whether or not they even want to attempt to breastfeed when they return to duty at 6 weeks.
And that is very sad for so many reasons. First, we all know that breastmilk is by far the best nourishment and straight from the tap is so much better for both mother and baby for many reasons. Second, by breastfeeding, the military mother is helping her command, and by extension the military, as it reduces her baby's illnesses and thereby her need to take time off. Furthermore, she may also stay in the military longer rather than getting out if she feels supported and not stigmatized. Making her feel badly or worse yet, writing her up for breastfeeding in uniform, is a sure-fire way to make her second guess her commitment to staying in. Finally, for many mothers who are struggling with milk supply issues, it can be a death-blow to her supply to ask her to give a bottle when instead she could be boosting her supply by breastfeeding AT THE BREAST. Not only will she have to use up some of her precious stockpile of milk, but she will then have to pump to make up for the missed breastfeeding session. This is a losing proposition for mother and baby.
When a baby needs to be fed a mother in uniform should do so, with no repercussions. There should be no debate on this issue. I would further add, that if women are told not to breastfeed in uniform (for the reasons cited above) then any policy needs to also address bottle-feeding in uniform. The very arguments used against breastfeeding apply to bottle-feeding: both require the mother to be 'out of uniform', both show affection (PDA) and nurturing, both are 'unprofessional'. As of 2012 there are still NO uniform regulations or military policies in place that specifically address the question or provide guidance on breastfeeding in uniform. This seems like a very simple issue to clear up. Make a DoD-wide policy (or amend the ones in place) that states that military women in uniform have the right to breastfeed anywhere that they or their babies have a right to feed. Definitions of what is allowable and how to best wear the uniform, where bottle and breastfeeding is allowed, and when feeding in uniform can occur should be included (meanwhile if you have questions please see this page for tips on breastfeeding in uniform). Doing so would both match the federal law regarding breastfeeding on federal property but also show mothers in uniform that breastfeeding is valued and their service to the nation is appreciated. It may also have the effect keeping a few more women in uniform who might have otherwise gotten out due to a lack of support for breastfeeding in uniform.
What are your thoughts on breastfeeding in uniform? Is it ever OK to do so or does it cross an invisible military boundary?
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/05/31/army-military-mom-breastfeed-uniform-controversy?hpt=hp_t3 (http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/05/31/army-military-mom-breastfeed-uniform-controversy?hpt=hp_t3)
http://breastfeedingincombatboots.com/2012/05/forget-breastfeeding-publicwhat-about-uniform/ (http://breastfeedingincombatboots.com/2012/05/forget-breastfeeding-publicwhat-about-uniform/)
Not only does this violate all sorts of rules on the wear and appearance of military uniforms in public, but it also violates rules of conduct. Hell, the Marine Corps goes apeshit with any kind of PDA in uniform, even hand holding. I also don't think it honors the men, and women, who have died wearing the uniform in the service of their country.
Sound off!
By the way, for those of you who are animals out there, the above photo should NOT be re-posted in the military babe thread.
I really don't give a crap either way. Breastfeed all you want, but a park bench seems a little inappropriate to do it without an apron/cover whether you're in uniform or not.
Reality is babies' gotta eat, and mama's gonna feed. The clothing in which it happens doesn't matter to me. To me there is a clear difference here between PDAs and feeding. One is a physical necessity, the other not so much. However, there is some decorum that can be observed regardless of what clothing is being worn.
That said, I *do* have an issue with taking what appears to be a public policy stand while in uniform, which starts to stray too close to the issues of maintaining separation between personal opinions/preferences, and straying too close to giving the appearance of endorsing policy from the uniform. Attending a pro-breastfeeding rally in uniform should be treated the same as attending a pro-speed limits rally in uniform, or an anti-abortion rally in uniform, or a political meeting in uniform - that shouldn't happen, and this starts to get dangerously close to that line.
I'll post this immediately to the Babes in Uniform thread.
Quote from: Gusington on June 01, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
I'll post this immediately to the Babes in Uniform thread.
I guess you missed this...
Quote from: Jarhead0331
By the way, for those of you who are animals out there, the above photo should NOT be re-posted in the military babe thread.
^You're joking right? I posted above exactly because you posted that. TEEHEE
BTW I have a question for you, is your PM working?
^Hmmm...if you sent me something, I did not receive it. Brant...can you or LB look into that?
^No I haven't sent it yet. Sending now. Need to pick your brain on something.
Quote from: Gusington on June 01, 2012, 09:52:22 AM
^No I haven't sent it yet. Sending now. Need to pick your brain on something.
Roger.
PM sent. Sorry for the OT.
Nah its fine, why well that tomorows soliders getting a great start to life with a better immune system. It also shows the military cater for working mothers. Think of the creche, like a tiny assualt course. Also it will encourage familys to stay in uniform insead of quiting to raise kids.
I think it's a question of decorum which has been deteriorating for a while across all parts of society. Basic courtesy and politeness have taken a back seat to loud, rude behavior. Just watch the news. Or visit an internet forum :).
I understand the argument that breast feeding is "natural" but so is having sex, taking a crap and vomiting. "Natural" does not mean it's a good idea to do it in public.
My take on the uniform issue is that wearing a uniform adds an additional level of decorum into the equation and requires even more thought about what actions you take while in that uniform.
Quote from: DoctorQuest on June 01, 2012, 12:51:37 PM
My take on the uniform issue is that wearing a uniform adds an additional level of decorum into the equation and requires even more thought about what actions you take while in that uniform.
+1. This is not only common sense, but there are already established rules of conduct. When you are in public, and in uniform, everything you do reflects upon the military. Since I went into the Guard, I'm walking through Penn Station and NYC at large in uniform all the time. I go out of my way to maintain a professional military bearing at all times. I do not even like to eat, drink, or sit in public while in that uniform. I realize that is extreme, but its what I'm most comfortable with.
Quote from: DoctorQuest on June 01, 2012, 12:51:37 PM
I understand the argument that breast feeding is "natural" but so is having sex, taking a crap and vomiting. "Natural" does not mean it's a good idea to do it in public.
I guess the difference is that breastfeeding is pretty much the most basic function of a mother sustaining the life of her child. Comparing defecation and vomiting to breastfeeding is beyond comparing apples to oranges.
I respect the necessity of enforcing standards of behavior in the Armed Services, but we are talking about a pretty basic function of sustaining human life.
^Yes, I was perhaps being a little too facetious in my example although it could be argued that defecation is also critical to human health and well-being.
And I digressed from the main point of whether an activity IN UNIFORM is appropriate as opposed to simply appropriate in general.
Quote from: DoctorQuest on June 01, 2012, 03:12:53 PM
^Yes, I was perhaps being a little too facetious in my example although it could be argued that defecation is also critical to human health and well-being.
And I digressed from the main point of whether an activity IN UNIFORM is appropriate as opposed to simply appropriate in general.
I wasn't trying to single you out, Doc. From what I've read, there have been quite a few comparisons to breastfeeding and less wholesome bodily functions.
I'm in line with some of the other opinions expressed here that breastfeeding while in uniform should be fine, but pushing an agenda while in uniform is definitely not.
Forget about the uniform issue for a second...I think everyone can agree that a mother should not be breastfeeding her baby while she is on duty? Right? I mean, there is no MOS for teet-suckling technician. Well, maybe in the Navy, but I digress... ;)
OK. So logically, a mother should only be breastfeeding her baby while she is off-duty. However, in the military, you shouldn't be wearing your uniform when you're off duty, so this is really obvious conduct that should be avoided while in uniform and in public. I understand, sometimes you're on duty and then when you're in transit back to your home, you may stop at the store to pick something up, or run errands. I do it when necessary. But, whatever, do you HAVE to breast feed during that time? Can't you have a bottle prepared? Can't you wait until you return home? Can't you wait until you've changed, or at the very least, go someplace private, like a restroom? I mean heck, why would you even have your damn baby with you?
Listen folks...when you're in the military you agree to make certain obvious sacrifices. You also agree to make some not so obvious sacrifices. Breastfeeding while you're in uniform is one of those things you implicitly agree not to do. The uniform and the traditions behind it are traceable back to over 250 years. Why should we risk diluting the tradition and honor that the uniform represents over this?
Its really something I believe the military must take a stand on. There can be no comprise on how we conduct ourselves in uniform, or how we treat the uniform. It's a slippery slope.
aside from the uniform issue: over here breastfeeding has become the only way to go if it's possible.
it is considered the by far healthiest way to feed a baby, both physical and psychological.
and by now it is done by mothers in the public: parcs, restaurants and other places.
what is the situation in the US and Canada?
First off, I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. In fact, many states make it perfectly legal to do so, even in restaurants. This is something done all over the world and it is far more of a "controversy" in America than it is in many places. I don't think that most women are quite so forward about it as this pic and the Time magazine cover, and many women put a cloth or cover over themselves. But, to me, it isn't a big deal
So that's where I stand on that.
As to breastfeeding in uniform, I don't know. I don't know the regulations faced by military personnel regarding uniform decorum. If they are told not to - then they shouldn't do it. Given my ignorance on the subject, I don't think it is fair or right to pontificate on it.
I will say that this photo looks like a personal photo taken for the families. I don't know why they did it that way, or how it went viral, but there it is. I also don't know what the regulation is on taking personal-use photos in your uniform.
Now... here is my BIG caveat. If we hardline on women breastfeeding, then we need to make sure men get the same restriction as well. Is this over the line?
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The quoted part did say something about restrictions against holding children in uniform (sorry if anyone knows that guy, just a Google search).
What about this?
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What I mean to say is this: if there is a rule about respect of the uniform, then it needs to be established what is respectful and what is not and - if breastfeeding is NOT considered respectful - there needs to be a good reason for that given and enforced.
Just my $0.02.
Forget about the regulations for a second. It's common sense. If it doesn't seem respectful, than it probably isn't. And yes, a soldier's sense of what is and isn't respectful, is most likely different than a civilians. So don't bother digging up photos of guys holding babies and kittens, I really don't see the comparison. When breastfeeding, a woman is disrobing a part of the uniform and exposing herself. If you don't see the difference between that, and a guy holding a cat, then you're probably never going to understand the argument I'm making.
1. I totally agree with JH on this.
2. Then again, they are USAF, so that's BARELY a uniform to begin with ;).
3. I wonder how McDonald's feels about their working moms breast feeding whilst in uniform?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 01, 2012, 06:14:48 PM
Forget about the regulations for a second. It's common sense. If it doesn't seem respectful, than it probably isn't. And yes, a soldier's sense of what is and isn't respectful, is most likely different than a civilians. So don't bother digging up photos of guys holding babies and kittens, I really don't see the comparison. When breastfeeding, a woman is disrobing a part of the uniform and exposing herself. If you don't see the difference between that, and a guy holding a cat, then you're probably never going to understand the argument I'm making.
As I said, I don't see anything wrong or disrespectful about breastfeeding. In fact, it is one of the most normal and humanizing acts. I thought that your argument stemmed from if this was a proper thing regulation-wise, and you cited that you didn't even like to be at home alone in your uniform because you were either on duty and in a uniform or off duty and out of one. So I guess I misunderstood your point - I thought you disagreed because these women are doing an off-duty action while in an on-duty state of dress?
I can also see the argument that you don't want women breastfeeding in uniform because, when in uniform you want them to be a soldier above all else, even a mother. But if that is the case, I think that should be applied to men holding kittens and babies too (and the OP you quoted specifically brought up holding children in uniform, which is why I picked that).
But if you are arguing they shouldn't be breastfeeding in uniform because breastfeeding in public is an inflammatory act, then I disagree.
Remember, I said if this was a rule about being respectful or not, then WHY it is not respectful should be established. I don't buy the "a person in the military and a civilian have different definitions of respectful" argument.
Please don't think I'm trying to yank a chain here. I just would say, to ease tension, I've seen more boob in uniform in the Military Babes thread than in the above picture and I would consider those more disrespectful of the uniform than displaying that soldiers are mothers too. Frankly, I'm comforted by the fact that I know we have Americans who sacrifice in their roles as mothers to protect me. So I actually see this picture as an affirmation that our military have lives like civvies, but put them on the line for our benefit. Does that make sense?
Quote3. I wonder how McDonald's feels about their working moms breast feeding whilst in uniform?
Given that they got in big trouble in Arizona for kicking out a patron who was breastfeeding, I'm going to guess they approach this very carefully. Given they only get short breaks, however, I'm not sure it is feasible.
I just read this:
QuoteNow, pictures of two Air Force mothers breastfeeding in uniform are adding another layer to the conversation. Terran Echegoyen-McCabe and Christina Luna were just posing for a series of photos commemorating Breastfeeding Awareness Month, but the image of the two women, with their fatigues unbuttoned and shirts hiked up, has moms and military members buzzing.
Now I agree. What Brant said on the subject was correct. They were clearly pushing an agenda. Even if I agree with the agenda, it is military policy to not do so in uniform (for very good reason).
So, even though the breastfeeding in uniform doesn't bother me, the above does, exactly as Mirth said.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 01, 2012, 09:14:07 AM
I really don't give a crap either way. Breastfeed all you want, but a park bench seems a little inappropriate to do it without an apron/cover whether you're in uniform or not.
Reality is babies' gotta eat, and mama's gonna feed. The clothing in which it happens doesn't matter to me. To me there is a clear difference here between PDAs and feeding. One is a physical necessity, the other not so much. However, there is some decorum that can be observed regardless of what clothing is being worn.
That said, I *do* have an issue with taking what appears to be a public policy stand while in uniform, which starts to stray too close to the issues of maintaining separation between personal opinions/preferences, and straying too close to giving the appearance of endorsing policy from the uniform. Attending a pro-breastfeeding rally in uniform should be treated the same as attending a pro-speed limits rally in uniform, or an anti-abortion rally in uniform, or a political meeting in uniform - that shouldn't happen, and this starts to get dangerously close to that line.
Excellent.
Seems like the WAANG is pretty well in line with my last point above
http://www.stripes.com/news/military-moms-in-breast-feeding-photos-say-they-ve-been-silenced-by-superiors-1.179249
QuoteCapt. Keith Kosik, state public affairs officer for the Washington National Guard, could not confirm whether the women's chain of command ordered them to stop doing interviews but said it is a possibility and confirmed that superior officers have been in contact with the women.
"Their military service is connected to what's going on right now," he said. "That's why we do have some jurisdiction there."
Kosik emphasized that the issue is not about breast-feeding in uniform.
Rather, he said, military regulations prohibit the use of the "uniform, title, rank or military affiliation to further a cause, promote a product or imply an endorsement."
"If you look at the press coverage that's out there right now, it has been misconstrued as a battle against breast-feeding," he said Thursday. "It leads one to believe they are being persecuted for breast-feeding. The fact is they're not being persecuted. The fact is breast-feeding was never an issue for us."
The military has no rules specifically regarding public breast-feeding while in uniform. The real issue is that servicemen and -women are not allowed to use the uniform to further a civilian cause, Kosik said.
Brant, Totally not trying to bait or anything, just actually curious -
What would be the military's stance on use of a uniformed soldier to commemorate Black History Month, Jewish History Month, Breast Cancer Awareness Month or any other month like that?
I'm putting the state of that picture aside in that question, because the military rep said fairly clearly it was not the breastfeeding that was the issue.
In uniform, on duty. You are no longer a mother, father, sister, or brother. The service isn't for the convienance of the individual, leave is an option. Carrying civilian clothes is recommended. This is a BS political statement that has no place in the military. If you don't like the rules, don' t enlist
Frankly if a man or a woman in service is unable to provide child care during the duty day either with a spouse, family member or day care; it's grounds for discharge due to family care plan issues. It's the way it need to be as Smuck has alluded too. Service is not an individual first 9-5 job.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 02, 2012, 09:38:03 AM
Brant, Totally not trying to bait or anything, just actually curious -
What would be the military's stance on use of a uniformed soldier to commemorate Black History Month, Jewish History Month, Breast Cancer Awareness Month or any other month like that?
I'm putting the state of that picture aside in that question, because the military rep said fairly clearly it was not the breastfeeding that was the issue.
it's still not supposed to happen. I won't tell you it doesn't (which is a double standard) but when it does it's much more sanctioned from the top-down. If an individual soldier took the initiative to do it, someone would take issue with it.
I knew the Grunts in the room would agree.
SoM, regarding the pictures that you posted: There is a very good chance that those Soldiers may work in a hospital and or an animal hospital. Look at my Journey Through Childhood Cancer, there is a picture of Tomas getting one of his spinal taps, the doctors are in uniform......'cept Maj Edwards, he always removed his blouse before doing the tap.
Quote from: Smuckatelli on June 04, 2012, 08:07:25 AM
SoM, regarding the pictures that you posted: There is a very good chance that those Soldiers may work in a hospital and or an animal hospital. Look at my Journey Through Childhood Cancer, there is a picture of Tomas getting one of his spinal taps, the doctors are in uniform......'cept Maj Edwards, he always removed his blouse before doing the tap.
Well... the site where I got the baby pic stated it was his daughter, but it does look like a official capacity nursery. I do think you are right about the kittens, it looks like a Vet's office upon closer inspection.
As to my disagreement, it was my fault for not reading the whole thing and that they were doing the pic for an official cause. As I said, I don't care about breastfeeding in public, but using a uniform for a cause is bad news.
Why did they not just dress in civilian clothes and then caption the photo with their service record? Have we come so far we can't read captions anymore?
Personally I dont give a crap about breastfeeding in public but the point I see that has not been brought up is that this is a bunch of guys arguing this. Having just seen what my wife went through with breastfeeding two babies and what type of hormones and instincts it brings out in them let me add my two cents. If you got a penis it doesnt matter what we think its the women who are going to decide this issue.
Con
Quote from: Con on June 04, 2012, 10:15:10 PM
Personally I dont give a crap about breastfeeding in public but the point I see that has not been brought up is that this is a bunch of guys arguing this. Having just seen what my wife went through with breastfeeding two babies and what type of hormones and instincts it brings out in them let me add my two cents. If you got a penis it doesnt matter what we think its the women who are going to decide this issue.
Con
It is in their private lives outside of duty time, but that logic is not compatible with the Armed Services during duty times. My wife also breast fed our children, but the fact is this is not a personal freedom issue. It is an Armed Services issue and one gives up a lot of personal rights and freedoms to wear the uniform.
Quote from: Bison on June 04, 2012, 10:20:16 PM
Quote from: Con on June 04, 2012, 10:15:10 PM
Personally I dont give a crap about breastfeeding in public but the point I see that has not been brought up is that this is a bunch of guys arguing this. Having just seen what my wife went through with breastfeeding two babies and what type of hormones and instincts it brings out in them let me add my two cents. If you got a penis it doesnt matter what we think its the women who are going to decide this issue.
Con
It is in their private lives outside of duty time, but that logic is not compatible with the Armed Services during duty times. My wife also breast fed our children, but the fact is this is not a personal freedom issue. It is an Armed Services issue and one gives up a lot of personal rights and freedoms to wear the uniform.
And this is the ultimate bottom-line. Picking one's nose is also a natural act (for some), but you don't do it in public view whilst in uniform (even Work Dress). Go in a bathroom stall (or some place private/out of view) if you've got to pick your nose whilst in uniform.
Quote from: Centurion40 on June 05, 2012, 11:47:17 AM
And this is the ultimate bottom-line. Picking one's nose is also a natural act (for some), but you don't do it in public view whilst in uniform (even Work Dress). Go in a bathroom stall (or some place private/out of view) if you've got to pick your nose whilst in uniform.
I have an issue with equating breastfeeding to other 'natural' acts such as defecating or nose-picking. Simply because they are all natural acts does not make them equivalent. A mother feeding her baby in the most wholesome and nourishing possible way is not disgusting or offensive or something that requires shielding from public view.
I understand the case being made that there are standards for serving in the military and wearing a uniform that everyone serving should follow. And I completely agree that promoting a cause while in uniform should be against regulations (as it currently is). However, I disagree that the act of breastfeeding should in anyway be construed as disgusting, unpleasant, disrepectful, unprofessional, etc.
Picking noses and defecating are natural but pregnancy is considered a medical condition. What are the regulations for wounded or disabled in uniform? Is there lee way given for them?
Con
Not trying to defend the use / misuse of the uniform...but is some of the reaction to this photo due partially because of the "controversial" topic of breast-feeding in public? Some time ago (at a website that Must Not Be Named) someone posted a picture of two marines finishing the Boston Marathon in full field gear. I don't recall anyone saying "good for them...but they should really have done this in their civiies if they weren't on-duty at the time".
What is the military policy on wearing uniform at, for example, a Democrat or Republic party rally? What about an NRA event? A Gay pride event? Are there other examples of "outrage" (probably too strong a word) at soldiers wearing uniform when not on duty? I generally don't follow those stories, so don't really know but it would be interesting to find out.
Back in Texas, I regularly saw off-duty cops wear their uniform when doing external "paid" work (directing traffic outside a large church, etc.) I think it was one of the concessions the police dept's made to their serving staff to make up for the (infamously) low compensation.
Jack, you should NEVER see a servicemember in uniform at a political rally/NRA meeting/gay pride event. That is one of the worst abuses of the uniform and unfortunately there are too many servicemembers and former servicemembers who are doing it.
The example of the Marines at the Boston marathon is completely different. As far as I know, the Boston Marathon doesn't support any particular political or social cause and is simply a sporting event. No issue there. The issue isn't wearing your uniform off duty but rather using the uniform to influence public policy.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on June 05, 2012, 05:13:55 PM
Jack, you should NEVER see a servicemember in uniform at a political rally/NRA meeting/gay pride event. That is one of the worst abuses of the uniform and unfortunately there are too many servicemembers and former servicemembers who are doing it.
The example of the Marines at the Boston marathon is completely different. As far as I know, the Boston Marathon doesn't support any particular political or social cause and is simply a sporting event. No issue there. The issue isn't wearing your uniform off duty but rather using the uniform to influence public policy.
And sometimes service personnel are authorized to wear the uniform at public events to positively promote the service. That could happen at a marathon or a parade of any sort.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2008/06/29/gay-pride.html
http://nicolelynfiore.blogspot.ca/2010/11/homosexuality-and-military.html
My point is not to rate one function of the body above or below another, I simply illustrate a point. There is a code of conduct and that code is to be followed, period. Service personnel are not to challenge that code, or demonstrate social activism while in uniform; if they do then they will face disciplinary action. It is up to the government and the defense department to change the code, not individual service personnel. I am unaware of any NATO ally that permits mothers to publicly breastfeed while in uniform. Ten years from now that might change. I never thought that I would see soldiers authorized to join a gay pride parade, but there it is.
So can a service person do what they please if they are wearing a uniform they bought from a surplus store. But are held by service rules in a goverment supplied uniform.
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 06, 2012, 01:02:40 AM
So can a service person do what they please if they are wearing a uniform they bought from a surplus store. But are held by service rules in a goverment supplied uniform.
If the uniform has insignia then the civvie shouldn't be wearing it. That stuff should be removed prior to purchase.
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 06, 2012, 01:02:40 AM
So can a service person do what they please if they are wearing a uniform they bought from a surplus store. But are held by service rules in a goverment supplied uniform.
I'm not really sure what you're asking here. It has nothing to do with where the uniform is acquired. Typically, the government doesn't "supply" uniforms. There are limited exceptions, but most uniforms have to be purchased by those in the military. They normally don't get them from a "surplus" store though. I always got mine from a PX or from a company like Marlow White.
In the Army, enlisted folks would get a basic set of uniforms issued to them (it used to be 4 sets, not sure now).
Officers had to purchase their own, and were given an allowance to do so when they were commissioned (though let's be honest - it barely covered your Class A's).
But Jarhead is right, regardless of the source of the uniform, you were expected to wear it within the proper standard. How you acquired it wasn't the issue. What you did while you were wearing it was.
You also weren't supposed to wear the uniform in different pieces and parts - you didn't wear the pants to work on your fence in your yard on the weekend, for instance. It didn't matter where/how/when you got it. If it was a part of the uniform, you treated it as such.
Isn't part of the whole "hazing" the drill-sergeant does to new recruits based on how to properly care for and dress in the uniform (i.e. shine the shoes, etc.)?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 06, 2012, 07:25:20 AM
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 06, 2012, 01:02:40 AM
So can a service person do what they please if they are wearing a uniform they bought from a surplus store. But are held by service rules in a goverment supplied uniform.
I'm not really sure what you're asking here. It has nothing to do with where the uniform is acquired. Typically, the government doesn't "supply" uniforms. There are limited exceptions, but most uniforms have to be purchased by those in the military. They normally don't get them from a "surplus" store though. I always got mine from a PX or from a company like Marlow White.
I dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 06:48:54 AMI dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
Yes, they do. See my note above. The military can't touch you if you don't belong to it, so wearing the pants to work in your yard carries no penalty at all to a high school gym teacher. But if you're a radio repairman in the Army, and you put on part of your uniform to work in the yard - no matter which part, where you got it, or what condition it's in - will get you in trouble with the chain of command.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 07, 2012, 05:26:01 PMIsn't part of the whole "hazing" the drill-sergeant does to new recruits based on how to properly care for and dress in the uniform (i.e. shine the shoes, etc.)?
It's not hazing. It's learning to prepare, wear, and care for your uniform.
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 06:48:54 AM
I dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
People who are serving in the military do not tend to buy "bits and bobs" of uniforms for uses outside of their military obligations. When you are actually in the military, you respect the uniform and wear it properly. period.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 08, 2012, 07:06:11 AM
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 06:48:54 AMI dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
Yes, they do. See my note above. The military can't touch you if you don't belong to it, so wearing the pants to work in your yard carries no penalty at all to a high school gym teacher. But if you're a radio repairman in the Army, and you put on part of your uniform to work in the yard - no matter which part, where you got it, or what condition it's in - will get you in trouble with the chain of command.
I don't think he is talking about civilians wearing military gear. I think he is talking about active duty wearing parts of military uniforms while off duty.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 08, 2012, 07:06:11 AM
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 06:48:54 AMI dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
Yes, they do. See my note above. The military can't touch you if you don't belong to it, so wearing the pants to work in your yard carries no penalty at all to a high school gym teacher. But if you're a radio repairman in the Army, and you put on part of your uniform to work in the yard - no matter which part, where you got it, or what condition it's in - will get you in trouble with the chain of command.
It's a bit different up here. So long as all identifying badges/patches are removed, you can wear surplus gear outside of 'the job.'
For example, issue raincoats do not have sewn-on regalia. It's attached via epaulette on a button-down shoulder strap. Take off the epaulette and there is no problem... could be a rain-coat you bought at a surplus store. Put on the epaulette and you've got an official piece of uniform, only to be worn by authorized personnel of the proper rank and unit while on duty (or off-duty whist travelling home from duty, or from home to duty).
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 08, 2012, 07:35:03 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 08, 2012, 07:06:11 AM
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 06:48:54 AMI dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
Yes, they do. See my note above. The military can't touch you if you don't belong to it, so wearing the pants to work in your yard carries no penalty at all to a high school gym teacher. But if you're a radio repairman in the Army, and you put on part of your uniform to work in the yard - no matter which part, where you got it, or what condition it's in - will get you in trouble with the chain of command.
I don't think he is talking about civilians wearing military gear. I think he is talking about active duty wearing parts of military uniforms while off duty.
You're correct. But I was drawing the comparison about how some things that might be OK for civilians are not OK for the military.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 08, 2012, 07:34:00 AM
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 06:48:54 AM
I dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
People who are serving in the military do not tend to buy "bits and bobs" of uniforms for uses outside of their military obligations. When you are actually in the military, you respect the uniform and wear it properly. period.
I mean for like fishing, camping, hunting trips sort of thing where camo would be useful
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 10:19:14 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on June 08, 2012, 07:34:00 AM
Quote from: 0kult13 on June 08, 2012, 06:48:54 AM
I dont mean the uniform they wear to work, but if say a person who works as a soldier owns bits and bobs they bought outside work do the same rules still apply to them ?.
People who are serving in the military do not tend to buy "bits and bobs" of uniforms for uses outside of their military obligations. When you are actually in the military, you respect the uniform and wear it properly. period.
I mean for like fishing, camping, hunting trips sort of thing where camo would be useful
you wear non-military camo. Buy some realtree or something.
I avoid problems like the above by not wearing anything from an organization that I am not part of or have not been part of in the past.
Quote from: Gusington on June 08, 2012, 10:27:15 AM
I avoid problems like the above by not wearing anything from an organization that I am not part of or have not been part of in the past.
How do you explain the cheerleading outfit then?
Quote from: mirth on June 08, 2012, 10:32:00 AMQuote from: Gusington on June 08, 2012, 10:27:15 AMI avoid problems like the above by not wearing anything from an organization that I am not part of or have not been part of in the past.
How do you explain the cheerleading outfit then?
I guess hitting on the male cheerleaders made him an honorary member of the organization?
How do you all think I got the job here? Hey what's up Brant.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.costumecraze.com%2Fimages%2Fvendors%2Fpony%2F40016-main.jpg&hash=52bbc71f25b893bdd97f4cecf2907e7c44312dd1)
I was picturing something more like this -
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchucksconnection.com%2Fdodgeball%2Fdodgeball02.jpg&hash=5246b91d129391e263b0b9a2ceb2d37de118f589)
LOL! Great now how am I going to get couscous out of my keyboard... :P
My skirt looks much better on me.
I declare this thread officially derailed.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canadaimg.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F01%2Ftrain-derailment-prince-george.jpg&hash=f0028793c1cfb3376026935950362806788e6b49)
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 08, 2012, 07:06:43 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 07, 2012, 05:26:01 PMIsn't part of the whole "hazing" the drill-sergeant does to new recruits based on how to properly care for and dress in the uniform (i.e. shine the shoes, etc.)?
It's not hazing. It's learning to prepare, wear, and care for your uniform.
Thus the scare quotes (you should know that, you grammar policeman). ;)
I don't have a better word for "Drill sergeant yelling in your face and calling you a momma's boy because you didn't shine your shoes."
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 08, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 08, 2012, 07:06:43 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 07, 2012, 05:26:01 PMIsn't part of the whole "hazing" the drill-sergeant does to new recruits based on how to properly care for and dress in the uniform (i.e. shine the shoes, etc.)?
It's not hazing. It's learning to prepare, wear, and care for your uniform.
Thus the scare quotes (you should know that, you grammar policeman). ;)
I don't have a better word for "Drill sergeant yelling in your face and calling you a momma's boy because you didn't shine your shoes."
"Instructing" 8)
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/14/woman-behind-military-breastfeeding-photo-fired-from-job/?intcmp=obinsite (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/14/woman-behind-military-breastfeeding-photo-fired-from-job/?intcmp=obinsite)
Quote
The Washington state woman who orchestrated controversial photos of military moms breast-feeding their kids in uniform was fired from her civilian job as an X-ray technician and the women in the picture have been reprimanded, she said.
Crystal Scott, the spokeswoman for the Spokane-area Mom2Mom group, said her employer blamed media coverage of the controversy when she asked why she was fired. The photo was designed to pressure the military into being more accommodating to nursing moms.
"It's sad because the media has portrayed Mom2Mom in such a positive light," Scott told Right This Minute. "I was doing something for the good of people. I feel like our organization is making positive changes for women all over the world. To be punished for something that was good was unfortunate."
According to reports, the military moms in the photographs have been reprimanded by the military for violating a rule stating that military uniforms cannot be used to promote a product or cause.
The photos were meant to be released for National Breast-feeding Awareness Week, in August, but on its Facebook page, Mom2Mom said they were not meant to be exploitive.
"The military photographs were NEVER meant to exploit, promote or to use the military uniform to help our group."
Scott has served in the military and now lives on the Fairchild Air Force Base near Spokane with her husband, who is on active duty. She is the spokesperson for Mom2Mom, a support group for breast-feeding on the military base.
Quote"The military photographs were NEVER meant to exploit, promote or to use the military uniform to help our group."
Why exactly were the photos taken while the moms were in uniform then?
QuoteScott has served in the military and now lives on the Fairchild Air Force Base near Spokane with her husband, who is on active duty. She is the spokesperson for Mom2Mom, a support group for breast-feeding on the military base.
Wait... so this ISN'T a civilian cause? Hmmm...