An anniversary of this clash of castles of steel is upon us. So what do You recommend? Steam and Iron or John Tiller's Jutland? In SAI You can play entire First World War at sea, but in terms of tactical gameplay, which game You appreciate more?
I was suggested by this RPS article https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/05/27/the-flare-path-in-brine/
Steam and Iron.
Hm, I forgot to refine my question with "AND WHY?" :2funny:
If you can handle Herman's video AAR's then see Jutland in Steam and Iron
Perfect for napping
not again lads >:(
SAI looks very interesting. I watched a BBC programme last week where the grandson (great grandson??) of Jellicoe went aboard a survey ship which mapped the locations of the sunken ships. It also suggested (nae, proved?) that Jellicoe was a scapegoat with details of the battle and manoeuvres being doctored by Beatty.
Interesting stuff.
I also recorded a program on Sunday on the BBC which I intend to watch and I now also want to get a book on the subject.
We did The Battle of Jutland in primary school iirc as a project...and I found the battle fascinating back then...even though it was ultimately a damp squib.
I played both games and love the detail of Tiller's work but it's pretty much unmanageable as a game. SAI Is my preferred choice. It's not pretty but it works really well.
RE: Jutland
If you absolutely must see it portrayed in 3D, then go with Tiller's Jutland. It's a good game despite what I think are a couple issues in the portrayal, such as Destroyers being hit too easily by the big guns at range. The graphics aren't amazing but they obviously beat out SAI.
The UI in Jutland is also difficult to get used to. Giving orders in the 3D view has a bit of a learning curve. It is easier to assign orders on the mini-map, and specifically with it zoomed full screen. But the mini-map shows little info and looks terrible to boot. Trade-off.
You must also use their game delivery client. Pretty much like Steam, but there is no activation/deactivation nonsense to deal with, on the game, anymore. I also don't think there has been much support for it the past few years, the original DRM decision having hurt it's reputation permanently and the developers going silent for many months at a time. Last I checked, there was some odd issue with the Campaign mode, but I think it may have been fixed (eventually?).
RE: Steam & Iron
If you don't mind the old Harpoon Classic simplistic 2D look, and want more content, then SAI is for you. You're not going to see shell splashes and damaged ship hulls, as in Jutland, but there is much more variety to be had and the UI is easier to learn. The learning curve, overall, is easier.
More nations, more ships, and easier/faster to use.
IIRC, you have to buy the campaign expansion with the original SAI, to get the dynamic campaign system. Which is likely something you will want to do.
Pick this one if you want to prove you're not a "Graphics Whore", and would prefer more toys in the toy box.
....
I think they both have their advantages & disadvantages.
They also both model an issue the RN had at the time, based upon an older theory. I have a bit of an issue with how that problem is portrayed in the mechanics. The numbers showed that the excessively high rate of magazine detonations, at the Battle Of Jutland, was extremely bad ...for the British Battlecruisers. The actual statistics of Battleship detonation rates were practically identical to those of the German Battleships. Instead of applying the higher detonation rates to just the British BCs, it has been applied across the whole range of such larger caliber gunned British warships (inc. the BBs) in both games. Last versions I played, you could only toggle that effect on/off in Tiller's Jutland game. Although it's still a blanket effect there, so it would also turn it on/off for the Battlecruisers at the same time. Same option available for earlier ineffective AP in Jutland. You couldn't toggle that in SAI, unless it was added in a later patch version I've not played.
Just my .02 on that specific part of the subject. Many don't want to get too far into such analytical/simulation details, so it's not usually on the radar.
I think you are confusing HPS's Jutland with the SES Jutland.
SES was the one with the DRM and is 3D.
HPS also has a Jutland game.
Quote from: magnus on May 31, 2016, 06:09:25 PM
I think you are confusing HPS's Jutland with the SES Jutland.
SES was the one with the DRM and is 3D.
HPS also has a Jutland game.
Yes, I was.
Never really considered the HPS version. Looked like it was jammed into that old Tiller engine, instead of being made for WWI naval battles from scratch. With the available alternatives, I never got it.
IIRC, HPS' Jutland (and Tushima and Midway) use a very different game engine from the better known Tiller turn-based games. They may share some visual UI attributes but, hey- it's John Tiller! :)
I actually tried to install the SES Jutland game a few weeks ago in celebration of the anniversary.
As encouraged on their website, I tried to run the demo first, just to be sure it worked on my system.
Short version: even after installing their BS DRM system, I had to go to an offsite-website to download the demo- not hosted on SES's website- and then when I installed it, after downloading the patches as required in the readme the game wouldn't run without a serial key.
I dicked around with this for a couple of hours before I decided that it was too much trouble to be arsed with it. So, even after submitting, in principle, to their ridiculous DRM scheme, they still lost a sale. Hell of a way to run a business.
I think SES is essentially defunct now. The forums are dead and I don't think there's been any updates or new product for a long time.
Yes, the Jutland I referred to in my earlier post was in fact the SES version not Tiller's game. Norm Kroger instead I think. Beautiful game but very hard to manage a Fleet sized battle. The smaller fights were good however. Product Support was probably the worst ever in a game. And I paid good money for it too. >:(
At the risk of being "me too" the SES game is fun in small engagements but tough with something the size of Jutland. As a company, they're a disaster.
SAI is simply a great game. I actually like the look of it. Seeing capital ship tracks on the map after the battle is a great feature. SAI also does a nice job of illustrating some of the problems of fleet command of the era. Russo-Japanese War is a great one, too.
The Tiller naval games are very different from the ground combat games. For one, they're real time with pause, and not turn-based. Like other Tiller games, they really do best in H2H play.
Lots of respect for Norm Koger, but Jim Rose is a Derek Smart level wing nut.
And I think I just insulted Derek Smart.
Quote from: mirth on June 01, 2016, 06:25:43 PM
And I think I just insulted Derek Smart.
There should be a Steam Achievement for that.
Been thinking of picking up a copy of AH's "Jutland" thinking that my son might enjoy the miniatures aspect of it- and now that I have the floor space to lay out the huge battle, it's quite intriguing to me at the moment.
Quote from: GJK on June 01, 2016, 06:51:04 PM
Been thinking of picking up a copy of AH's "Jutland" thinking that my son might enjoy the miniatures aspect of it- and now that I have the floor space to lay out the huge battle, it's quite intriguing to me at the moment.
The Fear God and Dreadnought version works okay and is more flexible and possibly easier to find in decent shape.
Some things bearing in mind about Jutland:
1) Given the fact the RN could read their coded radio transmissions almost as fast as they could themselves, the High Seas Fleet was incredibly lucky to have gotten away with relatively little damage
2) The current consensus (growing since the 1980s) is that the problem with the RN battlecruisers blowing up was with the propellant, not the ship designs, so any RN ship that gets hit a lot (exceptions being Warspite and Tiger, which were hit more than any other RN ships) is nearly as likely to blow up as a battlecruiser
3) catastrophic ammunition fires were as common on German ships, but because of slightly less volatile propellant, the result would be one or two turrets burned out rather than the whole ship blowing up
4) Lion of course famously survived exactly the kind of propellant fire that blew up Indefatigable, Queen Mary and Invincible, so even that rule-of-thumb doesn't quite hold.
I may be revealing my ignorance but I was under the impression that much of the 'there's something wrong with our bloody ships' syndrome was because of poor powder-handling habits among certain ships' crews, including leaving bags of propellent 'at the ready' and leaving blast doors to the powder rooms open to speed up loading times.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 01, 2016, 08:42:27 PM
I may be revealing my ignorance but I was under the impression that much of the 'there's something wrong with our bloody ships' syndrome was because of poor powder-handling habits among certain ships' crews, including leaving bags of propellent 'at the ready' and leaving blast doors to the powder rooms open to speed up loading times.
You got it. While there have been numerous reasons put forward, that is the most obvious problem, and had been attested to.
The RN was very ROF-focused at the time. Beatty's Battlecruiser squadrons were said to skip powder handling safety measures in order to squeeze out more fire during practice and, just as likely, during the battle.
Quote from: Nefaro on June 01, 2016, 09:00:28 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 01, 2016, 08:42:27 PM
I may be revealing my ignorance but I was under the impression that much of the 'there's something wrong with our bloody ships' syndrome was because of poor powder-handling habits among certain ships' crews, including leaving bags of propellent 'at the ready' and leaving blast doors to the powder rooms open to speed up loading times.
You got it. While there have been numerous reasons put forward, that is the most obvious problem, and had been attested to.
The RN was very ROF-focused at the time. Beatty's Battlecruiser squadrons were said to skip powder handling safety measures in order to squeeze out more fire during practice and, just as likely, during the battle.
It seems whatever the problems were, they happened on all kinds of ships (for example Seydlitz at Dogger Bank) and the key to blowing up the whole ship was the RN propellant. After Jutland, of course, the RN worked on all kinds of problems (for example getting AP shells that really worked), but the critical one at Jutland was apparently the propellant.
Quote from: MengJiao on June 01, 2016, 08:34:36 PM
The Fear God and Dreadnought version works okay and is more flexible and possibly easier to find in decent shape.
Some things bearing in mind about Jutland:
1) Given the fact the RN could read their coded radio transmissions almost as fast as they could themselves, the High Seas Fleet was incredibly lucky to have gotten away with relatively little damage
It is not a matter of luck only, but also a gross incompetence on British side. Room 40 properly decoded majority of German transmissions but information was not carried over to Jellicoe. Massie in Castles of Steel wrote something about it. It was a certain Capt. Jackson (I'm writing out of memory, don't remember his name for sure), Grand Fleet command liaison officer to the Room 40, that was a problem. He was a XIX century style fleet officer, with little understanding of modern signal intelligence and great contempt for civilians working in Room 40. This contempt was fully returned to him, and cooperation between Grand Fleet HQ and Room 40 was practically nonexistent, at least in the very hour of impending battle. Before the battle, Germans suspecting that their radio transmissions are not secure, tried a ruse and assigned Scheer's flagship code word to the land station. Room 40 was aware of it and therefore knew that Hochseeflotte was at sea! But Jackson didn't ask about details, he only asked about whereabouts of Scheer's flagship code word. He got an answer, that this code word is anchored... Apparently when after the battle Jellicoe was made aware of the full extent of Room 40 knowledge, that was not carried to him, he was furious.
Quote from: PAK on June 02, 2016, 08:05:43 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 01, 2016, 08:34:36 PM
The Fear God and Dreadnought version works okay and is more flexible and possibly easier to find in decent shape.
Some things bearing in mind about Jutland:
1) Given the fact the RN could read their coded radio transmissions almost as fast as they could themselves, the High Seas Fleet was incredibly lucky to have gotten away with relatively little damage
It is not a matter of luck only, but also a gross incompetence on British side. Room 40 properly decoded majority of German transmissions but information was not carried over to Jellicoe. Massie in Castles of Steel wrote something about it. It was a certain Capt. Jackson (I'm writing out of memory, don't remember his name for sure), Grand Fleet command liaison officer to the Room 40, that was a problem. He was a XIX century style fleet officer, with little understanding of modern signal intelligence and great contempt for civilians working in Room 40. This contempt was fully returned to him, and cooperation between Grand Fleet HQ and Room 40 was practically nonexistent, at least in the very hour of impending battle. Before the battle, Germans suspecting that their radio transmissions are not secure, tried a ruse and assigned Scheer's flagship code word to the land station. Room 40 was aware of it and therefore knew that Hochseeflotte was at sea! But Jackson didn't ask about details, he only asked about whereabouts of Scheer's flagship code word. He got an answer, that this code word is anchored... Apparently when after the battle Jellicoe was made aware of the full extent of Room 40 knowledge, that was not carried to him, he was furious.
On May 28 Jellico knew the Germans were coming out in force. The Grand Fleet put to sea before the High Seas Fleet and their aim was to cut off the retreat of the High Seas Fleet. Given all that, the High Seas Fleet was lucky to have gotten back behind its mine fields with relatively light loses. Jellico could have used more information (for example the exit of the German DDs by another route from the battle area), but from the point of view of the High Seas Fleet, having the enemy put to sea to trap you before you even put to sea was definitely a bad situation.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 01, 2016, 08:42:27 PM
I may be revealing my ignorance but I was under the impression that much of the 'there's something wrong with our bloody ships' syndrome was because of poor powder-handling habits among certain ships' crews, including leaving bags of propellent 'at the ready' and leaving blast doors to the powder rooms open to speed up loading times.
You're not being ignorant. You have stated exactly the issue. It is the principle reason that so many British battlecruisers blew up - safety procedures. O0
When you consider, for example, that Queen Mary had some 18 compartments to the Seydlitz, yet blew up after 7 main battery hits, whereas the Seydlitz limped home after 22 main battery hits, puts paid to the German accuracy argument. Beatty wanted his battle cruisers to maximise rate of fire, and that is why safety concerns were ignored. His sailors paid the price. As you rightly point out, all it took was one flash fire in the turret, and with the doors open to the magazine, the fire would follow the least resistance i.e. down to the deep magazine in the ship. With Jellicoe's main fleet you do not see the same pattern of events, as they were not under the same rules of engagement set out by Beatty.
Just a thought on the wargame side of things, why not consider Rule the Waves? This covers the Jutland period, plus you get to design the composition of you fleet, and individual ship classes.
Quote from: PAK on June 02, 2016, 08:05:43 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 01, 2016, 08:34:36 PM
The Fear God and Dreadnought version works okay and is more flexible and possibly easier to find in decent shape.
Some things bearing in mind about Jutland:
1) Given the fact the RN could read their coded radio transmissions almost as fast as they could themselves, the High Seas Fleet was incredibly lucky to have gotten away with relatively little damage
It is not a matter of luck only, but also a gross incompetence on British side. Room 40 properly decoded majority of German transmissions but information was not carried over to Jellicoe. Massie in Castles of Steel wrote something about it. It was a certain Capt. Jackson (I'm writing out of memory, don't remember his name for sure), Grand Fleet command liaison officer to the Room 40, that was a problem. He was a XIX century style fleet officer, with little understanding of modern signal intelligence and great contempt for civilians working in Room 40. This contempt was fully returned to him, and cooperation between Grand Fleet HQ and Room 40 was practically nonexistent, at least in the very hour of impending battle. Before the battle, Germans suspecting that their radio transmissions are not secure, tried a ruse and assigned Scheer's flagship code word to the land station. Room 40 was aware of it and therefore knew that Hochseeflotte was at sea! But Jackson didn't ask about details, he only asked about whereabouts of Scheer's flagship code word. He got an answer, that this code word is anchored... Apparently when after the battle Jellicoe was made aware of the full extent of Room 40 knowledge, that was not carried to him, he was furious.
Big +1.
Also during the action Beatty was using the flag system for communication, rather than the radio/telegraph. Given that the weather was poor for visibility - haze and banks of fog - and the ships spread out over a wide area it meant that orders were open to misinterpretation, even if seen at all. Beatty seems to have forgotten that what worked for Nelson with ships barely a few hundred metres apart would work poorly with ships spread out for miles, particularly in poor visibility.
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2016, 08:23:01 AM
Quote from: PAK on June 02, 2016, 08:05:43 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 01, 2016, 08:34:36 PM
The Fear God and Dreadnought version works okay and is more flexible and possibly easier to find in decent shape.
Some things bearing in mind about Jutland:
1) Given the fact the RN could read their coded radio transmissions almost as fast as they could themselves, the High Seas Fleet was incredibly lucky to have gotten away with relatively little damage
It is not a matter of luck only, but also a gross incompetence on British side. Room 40 properly decoded majority of German transmissions but information was not carried over to Jellicoe. Massie in Castles of Steel wrote something about it. It was a certain Capt. Jackson (I'm writing out of memory, don't remember his name for sure), Grand Fleet command liaison officer to the Room 40, that was a problem. He was a XIX century style fleet officer, with little understanding of modern signal intelligence and great contempt for civilians working in Room 40. This contempt was fully returned to him, and cooperation between Grand Fleet HQ and Room 40 was practically nonexistent, at least in the very hour of impending battle. Before the battle, Germans suspecting that their radio transmissions are not secure, tried a ruse and assigned Scheer's flagship code word to the land station. Room 40 was aware of it and therefore knew that Hochseeflotte was at sea! But Jackson didn't ask about details, he only asked about whereabouts of Scheer's flagship code word. He got an answer, that this code word is anchored... Apparently when after the battle Jellicoe was made aware of the full extent of Room 40 knowledge, that was not carried to him, he was furious.
Big +1.
Also during the action Beatty was using the flag system for communication, rather than the radio/telegraph. Given that the weather was poor for visibility - haze and banks of fog - and the ships spread out over a wide area it meant that orders were open to misinterpretation, even if seen at all. Beatty seems to have forgotten that what worked for Nelson with ships barely a few hundred metres apart would work poorly with ships spread out for miles, particularly in poor visibility.
Radios, flags and signal lights were used by Beatty's squadrons. His flag signals were often ill-judged, but they always seem to have been received (though in one case the haul-down = execute was delayed making things even worse). For example, at 4.48, Southhampton sent a wireless transmission reporting the High Seas Fleet and Beatty sent out some flag signals which all were received, though they were poorly thought-out and badly done (eg delayed haul-down/execute). By around 6pm the light was so bad that most signals seem to have been via lights.
I stand corrected! O0 Even so at least the basic idea about the bad battle communications wasn't too far adrift... despite my eye watering explanation, which you could sea through... ;)
You are all making me want to pull Massey out again. Not that I don't already have an enormous pile of Great War reading I'm trying to get through.
I just finished a turn of France '14 with Cyrano. Now to decide if it's a game of In The Trenches or succumb to this thread's temptation to fire up SAI.
The Germans did score better with hits.
The reason that the German BCs were hit so many times is that twice they charged the RN in a death ride to save the rest of the fleet.
From what I have read the RN always knew exactly where the German forces were.
As someone stated the RN was under way before the German navy was even clear of the minefields.
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2016, 01:54:41 PM
I stand corrected! O0 Even so at least the basic idea about the bad battle communications wasn't too far adrift... despite my eye watering explanation, which you could sea through... ;)
Andrew Gordon's amazing book on Jutland (and a lot of other things), the Rules of the Game, takes one of Beatty's really badly done signals (to Evan-Thomas at about 4.40) and uses it as the starting point of a explanation of how 100 years of not having a major fleet action made the RN do weird things with signals. So, yes, Beatty's flag signals at Jutland and Dogger Bank were so poorly done that they were a major factor in letting the Germans get off relatively lightly. Fortunately, by the time of Jutland, some of Beatty's squadron commanders had learned to ignore a lot of the finer points of signals made by the Flagship of the Battlecruiser Fleet. Unfortunately, Evan-Thomas was not one of them since he had not sailed under Beatty's command before.
That's a great book.
Quote from: MengJiao on June 04, 2016, 08:53:00 PM
Quote from: Boggit on June 04, 2016, 01:54:41 PM
I stand corrected! O0 Even so at least the basic idea about the bad battle communications wasn't too far adrift... despite my eye watering explanation, which you could sea through... ;)
Andrew Gordon's amazing book on Jutland (and a lot of other things), the Rules of the Game, takes one of Beatty's really badly done signals (to Evan-Thomas at about 4.40) and uses it as the starting point of a explanation of how 100 years of not having a major fleet action made the RN do weird things with signals. So, yes, Beatty's flag signals at Jutland and Dogger Bank were so poorly done that they were a major factor in letting the Germans get off relatively lightly. Fortunately, by the time of Jutland, some of Beatty's squadron commanders had learned to ignore a lot of the finer points of signals made by the Flagship of the Battlecruiser Fleet. Unfortunately, Evan-Thomas was not one of them since he had not sailed under Beatty's command before.
Lol! A good point. O0 It sounds like a lot of Beatty's captains knew him well and emulated Nelson at Copenhagen by looking at the signals with their blind eye! ;D
By most modern accounts, Beatty's Flag Lieutenant was incompetent.
Quote from: mirth on May 31, 2016, 07:49:54 PM
I think SES is essentially defunct now. The forums are dead and I don't think there's been any updates or new product for a long time.
I agree...but the part of SES that takes your money is still working... >:D