Someone entered a very crowded nightclub in Orlando and started shooting people. According to a live press briefing on the CNN feed Police responded and breached the wall, entering and shooting the suspect. By then there were already up to 20 dead and 42 wounded. The shooter also brought a number of possible explosive devices. The briefing also indicated there may be a connection to radical islam. The nightclub was a very popular gay club but the cops said they don't have any indication that the shooter picked the club because of that.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/index.html
Freaky that this happened in the same city that a former Voice TV show contestant was killed at an autograph signing just a day earlier.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/voice-singer-christina-grimmie-shot-after-florida-concert-n590161
Sad, very sad. Will be remembering the victims and their friends/families in my prayers.
Interesting that a foreign news source seems to have lots more detailed coverage (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html) that US sources.
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/36510272): Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando - at least 20 dead
Sympathy to the victims.....more craziness it seems.
So possible connections to Islam? It will be interesting to see how that gets played in the media and by politicians. Imagine if it was a Southern Baptist shooter who didn't like gays. Religion would be the story. We would already be hearing how the shooter was influenced by anti-gay teachings in the Christian church, which would be vilified as much as the shooter. Here? I'm betting lunch the radical islamic angle is downplayed.
Terrible...
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 12, 2016, 08:40:35 AM
So possible connections to Islam? It will be interesting to see how that gets played in the media and by politicians. Imagine if it was a Southern Baptist shooter who didn't like gays. Religion would be the story.
Ohhhh, I'm willing to bet a Coke from past experience, that this gets played anyway against conservative Christians (whether as radically hateful as Westboro or more like me ;) ) who don't agree with fostering homosexual behavior. Not necessarily by major media, but wouldn't be surprised to see some of that, too. :buck2:
Sadness and prayers for the victims and their families (and for any family of the shooter who doesn't agree with his actions).
It's now at 50 dead and 53 wounded. This is horrible....
Awful, difficult to find words for this kind of evil. Prayers for the victims and families.
Shooter identified (http://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2016/06/12/pulse-shooter-identified-as-omar-s-mateen-of-fort-pierce-florida) as Omar S. Mateen.
Prayers for the victims, families and friends.
Thought this was interesting. From the AP
QuoteMateen's father, Mir Seddique, told NBC News about his son seeing the men kissing a couple of months ago.
"We are saying we are apologizing for the whole incident," Seddique said. "We are in shock like the whole country."
FBI agent Ron Hopper said there was no further threat to Orlando or the surrounding area.
When asked if the gunman had a connection to radical Islamic terrorism, Hopper said authorities had "suggestions that individual has leanings towards that."
Mateen's father said the attack had nothing to do with religion, he said.
Quote from: Greybriar on June 12, 2016, 11:48:58 AM
Shooter identified (http://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2016/06/12/pulse-shooter-identified-as-omar-s-mateen-of-fort-pierce-florida) as Omar S. Mateen.
QuoteThe suspected shooter called 911 prior to the shooting and pledged allegiance to the Islamic State, two federal officials tell NPR. This is the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/12/481744095/police-say-multiple-victims-after-shooting-at-orlando-nightclub
Absolutely disgusting and terrible. My first inkling as to what was going on was seeing on the news some kind of local Muslim spokesperson on the news saying for people to not jump to conclusions...welp, that in and of itself is pretty damned telling whom was responsible for it. >:(
Now, it's upwards of 50 dead and 53 or so wounded.
Quote from: steve58 on June 12, 2016, 07:23:09 AM
Interesting that a foreign news source seems to have lots more detailed coverage (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html) that US sources.
Jesus. That's easily one hundred times the coverage of the US 24-hour news networks. All they can do is wring their hands, not say anything about the shooter's name or religion, and tell people to not "jump to conclusions." I'm so utterly sick of the fucking news here...how more people are not, I don't get at all. They just sit there and endlessly spout off on some of the most inane and
stupidly obvious points over and over and over again. How in the hell do these idiots stay in business?
While I generally agree about the quality of the news in our country, to be fair, CNN is now running the headline (in the biggest letters I've seen on their site) "Gunman pro-ISIS." So at least for now CNN doesn't seem to be shying away from the topic.
I also saw something on CNN that one of the SWAT team members who went in took a bullet to his Kevlar helmet. Good on them for going on guns blazing. Just wish they would have gotten in sooner.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on June 12, 2016, 02:17:07 PM
While I generally agree about the quality of the news in our country, to be fair, CNN is now running the headline (in the biggest letters I've seen on their site) "Gunman pro-ISIS." So at least for now CNN doesn't seem to be shying away from the topic.
I also saw something on CNN that one of the SWAT team members who went in took a bullet to his Kevlar helmet. Good on them for going on guns blazing. Just wish they would have gotten in sooner.
IMHO, CNN has been trying harder to take the middle ground between Fox and MSNBC. They're still very much the Clinton News Network in that aspect of their reporting, but every news source is going to be biased in some areas I suppose.
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on June 12, 2016, 02:17:07 PM
I also saw something on CNN that one of the SWAT team members who went in took a bullet to his Kevlar helmet. Good on them for going on guns blazing. Just wish they would have gotten in sooner.
They posted his helmet on the Orlando PD twitter account:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkwmFYCWgAA08ug.jpg)
^motherfuck
Dizzy NFL players have got nothing on that guy...
Is that guy okay?
He has some kind of eye injury but otherwise really lucked out. Still, you have to wonder what could crop up later from so much kinetic energy being dissipated against his head.
Yeah, no shit. Hope he comes out of it alright long term.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/ex-wife-of-suspected-orlando-shooter-he-beat-me/2016/06/12/8a1963b4-30b8-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html
Roast in Hell, piece of shit.
I feel so sad for the victims, their families, and the survivors. :'(
I hope all 72 of his virgins turn-out to be gay men. :coolsmiley:
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 12, 2016, 04:25:08 PM
I hope all 72 of his virgins turn-out to be gay men. :coolsmiley:
Who beat the crap out of him hourly... >:D
Just got back home and heard about this. Very sad. :(
Quote from: mirth on June 12, 2016, 03:13:41 PM
Roast in Hell, piece of shit.
+1000
It galls me to agree with Ted Cruz, but, read the below and tell me that you don't agree, too:
QuoteOur nation is at war. From 9/11 to the Boston Marathon, from Fort Hood to Chattanooga, from San Bernardino to last night's horrific attack in Orlando, radical Islamic terrorism has declared jihad on America. Early reports indicate the Orlando terrorist had pledged his allegiance to ISIS, and he had previously been investigated by the FBI. And yet, as with the prior attacks, we were not able to act to stop this act of vicious terrorism that has now murdered 50 and injured more than 50 others.
Our hearts go out to those killed and wounded last night. Our prayers are with their families, and with all their grieving loved ones.
It is a time for action. We need a Commander in Chief who will speak the truth, and who will unleash the full force and fury of the American military to utterly destroy ISIS and its affiliates. We need to pass the Expatriate Terrorist Act, so that known ISIS terrorists cannot use U.S. passports to return to America and wage jihad. We need a President who is serious - who will identify the enemy by name and do everything necessary to defeat it.
The next few days will be sadly predictable. Democrats will try to use this attack to change the subject. As a matter of rigid ideology, far too many Democrats - from Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton - will refuse to utter the words 'radical Islamic terrorism.' They will claim this attack, like they claimed every previous attack, was isolated and had nothing to do with the vicious Islamist theology that is daily waging war on us across the globe. And they will try to exploit this terror attack to undermine the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms of law-abiding Americans.
Enough is enough. What we need is for every American - Democrat and Republican - to come together, abandon political correctness, and unite in defeating radical Islamic terrorism.
ISIS doesn't just target soldiers. They don't just target Republicans. Or Jews. They also target Christians and fellow Muslims. They target each and every one of us. As we saw this morning, they target the gay and lesbian community. Their objective, which they broadcast worldwide, is to murder or forcibly convert every single American.
For all the Democrats who are loud champions of the gay and lesbian community whenever there is a culture battle waging, now is the opportunity to speak out against an ideology that calls for the murder of gays and lesbians. ISIS and the theocracy in Iran (supported with American taxpayer dollars) regularly murder homosexuals, throwing them from buildings and burying them under rocks. This is wrong, it is evil, and we must all stand against it. Every human being has a right to live according to his or her faith and conscience, and nobody has a right to murder someone who doesn't share their faith or sexual orientation. If you're a Democratic politician and you really want to stand for LGBT, show real courage and stand up against the vicious ideology that has targeted our fellow Americans for murder.
Today, all of America stands in solidarity with the people of Orlando. All of us should lift them up in prayer, demand action, and if you have any information about the Orlando shooter or potential radical Islamic terror plots, please act to keep us safe by using the FBI tips website: https://tips.fbi.gov.
http://www.businessinsider.com/ted-cruz-statement-orlando-shooting-2016-6
Cruz looks positively Presidential when you compare that to Trump's first response. On Twitter, of course.
"Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism, I don't want congrats, I want toughness & vigilance. We must be smart!".
What a narcissistic douchebag........
Yeah, Trump really shit the bed on this one. The thing is, his followers don't care. They're still stuck lip-first on his nuts and he can do no wrong.
Goddamn. I really don't even know what else to say in the face of something like that. :'(
+1 to both MD's and Steelies posts.
Trump was very quick to make political capital out of a tragedy, while congratulating himself, meanwhile Obama and Clinton do the meaningless ritual "Charlie Hebdo" hand wringing. Ted Cruz comes out of this very well, but is no longer running for President.
Sadly, your current presidential choices strike me as very ineffective leaders at a time like this, with Trump and his narcissism looking only marginally better than Clinton/Obama.
So God save America. It seems that whoever of the sorry leading choices :idiot2: you currently have for next president won't. :(
i expect from the media feasting over the tragedy for audience rating as always that in the longrun fallout will end up with "had nothing to do with a certain religion - was 110% homophobic motivated", so "gays/fringe groups need more protection / tolerance / attention" and the usual inevitable "no guns for everage-Joe regular law obiting people"-mantra
...and if you boil it up together it will be "(concealed) guns for gays/fringe groups only" combined with a "state sponsored selfdefence training especially for the needs of fringe groups"
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F10%2Fp238-mustang4.jpg&hash=a34146dc34ccfc1ed949d062be018feaa992d679)
and a fitting government issued free SIG for them ::)
Egad. This is so horribly familiar now.
Thoughts and prayers to the victims. Nothing but loathing for the shooter - burn in hell, coward.
From a gathering of members of the Toledo LGBT community;
Quote
To dislike somebody because of who they are, color of skin or where they come from makes absolutely no sense. This is supposed to be a Christian country. How Christian is that?" said Louis Escobar of Equality Toledo.
Um, except it wasn't a Christian that committed the attack.
I do not know how reliable a source the Gateway Pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/06/isis-announced-florida-attack-three-days-ago/) is, but according to it: ISIS Announced Florida Threat THREE Days Ago: "We Will Attack Florida"
Quote from: OJsDad on June 13, 2016, 07:12:41 AM
From a gathering of members of the Toledo LGBT community;
Quote
To dislike somebody because of who they are, color of skin or where they come from makes absolutely no sense. This is supposed to be a Christian country. How Christian is that?" said Louis Escobar of Equality Toledo.
Um, except it wasn't a Christian that committed the attack.
In the same vein as initially reporting George Zimmerman as "white", the left simply can't help themselves:
https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2016/06/12/aclu-blames-wait-for-it-conservative-christians-for-orlando/ (https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2016/06/12/aclu-blames-wait-for-it-conservative-christians-for-orlando/)
I win a Coke! :buck2: ::)
Quote from: Greybriar on June 13, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
I do not know how reliable a source the Gateway Pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/06/isis-announced-florida-attack-three-days-ago/) is, but according to it: ISIS Announced Florida Threat THREE Days Ago: "We Will Attack Florida"
If the source you quote is true then the latest assertion by President Obama might raise some issues with his agenda on firearms, as apparently he thinks this is home grown terrorism without direct evidence of involvement by IS.
http://in.reuters.com/article/florida-shooting-obama-idINKCN0YZ1VH
Quote from: Greybriar on June 13, 2016, 10:09:19 AM
I do not know how reliable a source the Gateway Pundit (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/06/isis-announced-florida-attack-three-days-ago/) is, but according to it: ISIS Announced Florida Threat THREE Days Ago: "We Will Attack Florida"
I checked out some sources mentioned in the Gateway Pundit, and found these...
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/06/caught-video-gays-must-die-says-speaker-orlando-mosque/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3638438/Orlando-shooting-Controversial-anti-homosexual-sheikh-spoke-Florida-shooting.html
http://lybio.net/tag/sekaleshfar-kill-gays/
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/04/06/united-west-gays-must-die-says-u-s-islamic-scholar/
http://overpassesforamerica.com/?p=30197
And this "religious" charmer has been in Arizona too, amongst other places promoting the religion of peace...
http://tune.pk/video/2406684/Sheikh-Farrokh-Sekaleshfar-Lecture-3-Part-13-Sufism-amp-Irfan-Al-Mahdi-Center
He also rebuts in a statement his involvement in the Orlando killings... draw your own conclusions...
https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/31826103/farrokh-sekaleshfar-says-gays-should-be-executed-gave-sermon-weeks-before-orlando-massacre/
That all said, Sekaleshfar is a Shia Muslim cleric, not Sunni, which apparently is who Islamic State represent... Given that Mateen was an Afghan (and a lot of Afghans are Shia (with others being Sunni)), and given that many Afghan Shia Muslims fight for Iran against Islamic State, it does muddy the waters as to who prompted Mateen to commit the atrocity. Perhaps President Obama has a good point when he questions Islamic State control?
On the good news side...here's a pic of the officer who took a round to the helmet. Looks like he got the girl, too:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13435439_288382038167544_7417998171588835841_n.jpg?oh=3906270cf72527cc2cb35ffc85f909d8&oe=57FF68F0)
Thanks for posting that pic, AR. Glad he's doing okay.
Looks like it all ain't bad then. O0
Still... small comfort for the victims. :(
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on June 13, 2016, 03:49:28 PM
On the good news side...here's a pic of the officer who took a round to the helmet. Looks like he got the girl, too:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13435439_288382038167544_7417998171588835841_n.jpg?oh=3906270cf72527cc2cb35ffc85f909d8&oe=57FF68F0)
O0 Great news.
Am I the only one looking at the green police helmet and thinking, "huh, green for police, that seems odd -- oh 'Florida'"?
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 13, 2016, 04:22:55 PM
Am I the only one looking at the green police helmet and thinking, "huh, green for police, that seems odd -- oh 'Florida'"?
Army surplus?
they might have covers on them when wearing them out, but every helmet I was ever issued was green, and we'd put whatever relevant cover on it (desert tan, woodland green, etc)
And yet, from all this, there is still hope...
This guy is a Shura council member of Saudi Arabia, and apparently in his view the West are not total degenerates...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Al-Buleihi
The YouTube interview surprised me greatly compared to the usual BS - compare this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-06gebf_J28
And it's not just him... there are actual Muslims thinking and reflecting on what is happening with their society and the world... the downside is on the other side of the debate are the "religious" nutjobs that think whatever they do has Divine approval, and anything else is irrelevant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2DWRsPv9b4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM_AiYOu4zQ We see our friend Al-Buleihi again in part of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHaFbHOBbo0
to this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndpsuvg48fc
And some more on this highly entertaining speaker... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXYx5fNICy0
Damn. I might take a bullet to the head for her. :-X
Thanks for the picture of the guy who had a good helmet. I'm glad he is doing well.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 13, 2016, 05:34:47 PM
they might have covers on them when wearing them out, but every helmet I was ever issued was green, and we'd put whatever relevant cover on it (desert tan, woodland green, etc)
Seems likely in hindsight; I noticed the usual black / dark blue gear in the background. O0
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 12, 2016, 04:25:08 PM
I hope all 72 of his virgins turn-out to be gay men. :coolsmiley:
If that hasn't gone viral yet, it should. >:D
Various news sites are now reporting that he had been frequenting the club himself and also had a profile on a gay dating site. Unsure if that counts as stalking targets, or if he thought he was getting rid of a temptation. (...to stop beating his wife and start beating someone else. :buck2: :knuppel2: )
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 14, 2016, 10:22:13 AM
Various news sites are now reporting that he had been frequenting the club himself and also had a profile on a gay dating site. Unsure if that counts as stalking targets, or if he thought he was getting rid of a temptation. (...to stop beating his wife and start beating someone else. :buck2: :knuppel2: )
Maybe. Could he also have been inspired by the hate preacher identified in my earlier post who had been invited to speak at the Orlando Mosque? He was advocating killing gays - as a kindness!!!! :o It's a puzzle... ::)
Am I the only one thinking this is being portrayed more as another hate crime and not a terrorist attack. It's almost like the terrorists name was Joe Smith and that it's being equated to the same hate they label someone that doesn't want to provide a service for a same sex wedding. Whether someone supports the LGBT movement or not, they're still horrified and angered by this attack.
Perhaps it's a combination of my head-cold and little sleep last night after and extra 3 hrs of travel. So if, I'm totally off base he, slap be, tell me to get caught up on my rest, and I'll be good with that.
You are not the only one who has noticed how this is being spun.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 14, 2016, 07:20:17 PM
Am I the only one thinking this is being portrayed more as another hate crime and not a terrorist attack. It's almost like the terrorists name was Joe Smith and that it's being equated to the same hate they label someone that doesn't want to provide a service for a same sex wedding. Whether someone supports the LGBT movement or not, they're still horrified and angered by this attack.
Perhaps it's a combination of my head-cold and little sleep last night after and extra 3 hrs of travel. So if, I'm totally off base he, slap be, tell me to get caught up on my rest, and I'll be good with that.
It's not just you....sigh. What we hear from the Administration sounds like HATE CRIME/HOMOPHOBIA/GUN CONTROL/INTOLERANCE all shouted at us while the word "terrorism" is whispered. And then there are the comments about how it's the fault of Christianity somehow, how it's not them, it's us! In ISIS held lands they push gays off of 7 story buildings, but somehow we are the haters. It's very tiring......
Can't be the fault of Christians. We can blame a whole religion can we?
It is embarassing and frightening that Trump is the only one who will call it like it is. We are at war with an extremist form of religion that is anathema to our way of life. We need to nut up and accept the reality of the situation. Our current political leadership seems unwilling/unable to do that.
Quote from: Boggit on June 14, 2016, 07:05:51 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 14, 2016, 10:22:13 AM
Various news sites are now reporting that he had been frequenting the club himself and also had a profile on a gay dating site. Unsure if that counts as stalking targets, or if he thought he was getting rid of a temptation. (...to stop beating his wife and start beating someone else. :buck2: :knuppel2: )
Maybe. Could he also have been inspired by the hate preacher identified in my earlier post who had been invited to speak at the Orlando Mosque? He was advocating killing gays - as a kindness!!!! :o It's a puzzle... ::)
Actually, I've been seeing some speculation in the media that this is the face of things to come, with groups like IS-HOLE not needing to establish 2-way comms with these local self-motivated bags of douche. The dark forces behind the jihadistsphere only need to provide the audio-visual background narrative, the social-media based illusion of belonging, and a generalized list of targets, and the douchebags will start rolling down hill to claymore-mine themselves at their own personally projected-inadequacy-based social groups or entities. Every nut-job that explodes becomes an IS-HOLE win by default, even if I-H had no fucking idea it was going to happen ahead of time.
But what gets me is that they had an invited Imam - at an Orlando Mosque - calling on the faithful to kill gays! I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere on mainstream TV. I've seen this being portrayed by people with agenda of their own saying, this is anti-gay, guns are too easy to get, it's not really Islam, it's a madman, it's a one off....yada, yada, yada.
And yet the guy was a Muslim in Orlando, and claimed he was acting for IS as jihad. It seems form C4 TV news tonight that his wife knew he was buying guns and took him to Pulse. She is only now raising her doubts, all after the event. Apart from a complete lack of probity, it seems everyone who knew him is amazed this happened. Really?
Now why are the media and mainstream politicians searching everywhere but the obvious for a reason? Was he a member of the Orlando Mosque, did he attend the lectures by the hate preaching Imam? Why was this Imam invited to the Orlando Mosque? Why when he preached hate wasn't he stopped and upbraided? Why has he been allowed to visit the US subsequently to preach at different Mosques? Now, I'm not saying that this imam IS the cause. He may not be, although his message hardly bodes well for Americans. Isn't it worth flagging it up and just eliminating the obvious from the enquiry before the politicians and media kick it all into the long grass for the sake of their pet agenda (or legacy in the case of one)? For Heaven's sake lots of your own people have been cold bloodedly murdered. That they are gay is no excuse, they were innocent people murdered. The scary thing is that Trump is voicing what lots of people are thinking but not saying, even if he has his own agenda for doing that.
A serious and mature discussion needs to happen. Because with Trump stirring the pot things could get out of hand, and when innocent people get hurt again, nothing will really have been done to minimise the damage. Will we have any better idea of understanding who in the subculture of terrorism is doing what, and why? Hence my earlier expression of the "Charlie Hebdo hand wringing ritual" of public outpourings of grief, rather than the determined decision to get to the bottom of who, what, where, why and when and then to deal with the problem root and branch.
Sure it's difficult for politicians to challenge the culture and ideas of a religion, but they must do it. It's not as though some people in the Islamic world don't recognise that it is a trained cultural view that the West, and things of it are "inferior", or "evil". You need to engage with them and the traditional indoctrinaires and challenge these views, otherwise you'll get yet another self righteous jihadist bastard doing the same in the name of his religion, oppression of the fanatic cultists or whatever.
obama not willing to call a spade a spade, whats new? wants assault weapons ban. havent we banned these things after every mass shooting? guess they want assault weapon defined as every thing except a single shot weapon! obama also says killer radicalized by internet. incoming ban in 5,4,3,2,1......
Great post, Boggit. You cut away the BS and get to the matter at hand. You're very right....a serious and mature discussion needs to happen. What we'll likely get instead is more misdirection and political hay-making, all while turning our anger in the wrong direction. You are showing way too much common sense, brother.
Thanks Steelie. I appreciate your kind comments. :)
Like you, I am sick and tired of switching on the TV, asking myself what atrocity has happened today, then seeing the media and politicians revelling in it with their false concern, photo opportunities, playing to hobby horse agenda, and all the while avoiding the thorny issues .
It's not just the US. We see the same bullshit being peddled over here, whichever political topic you look at. It's just so disheartening. If I can see it, why can't our so called leaders with all the advice and resources they have? I don't have power, but they do, and they just don't use it for the betterment of the nation.
I have a whole lot of empathy with JudgeDredd for his criticism of the way the Brexit debate is being handled. There is one basic question to be asked : "Do you want an unelected, unaccountable group of people to make your laws legitimised by the most tenuous link to democracy?" Instead both sides go off on a tangent of their own, which only incidentally touches on the core question. The referendum is not about immigration, or economics, or world war 3. These are all incidental to the core question, and frankly you see enough guessing and false doom and gloom from both sides of the argument.
Coming back to the Orlando killings... Do you want to see it again? Yes? - make it an issue for mourning, coming togetherness, sympathy and ultimately do nothing about the reasons WHY it happened in the first place. The left, for example, have said oh it's the availability of guns, and maybe the point that assault weapons are designed to kill lots of people in a war setting.
Maybe there is a case to restrict access to that "type" of weapon. BUT, how many people in the US have guns (of all sorts), and how many of them have killed other people with them? Arguably, a tiny percentage of non-criminal users? If you do own an assault rifle, and I'm pretty sure some of the people in our forums do, then are we arguing that you are a ticking time bomb, and are going to do something bad simply as an incidental of ownership? I don't think that makes sense. My wife said to me why would you need one? I said you don't, but if you enjoy shooting you might have one at a gun club. Also I get why people keep guns for self defence in a country where help can be a long way away, and to be unarmed before a criminal leaves you and your family vulnerable.
I can argue this one way or another, but at the end of the day a man walked into a club and killed a lot of people. He didn't need an assault rifle to do it, a fire bomb would be just as effective, perhaps more so, if he'd taken steps to block the emergency exits he probably would have killed and injured more people. It isn't about the methodology of the killing. It's about the intention and motivation to do the killing. Address that and you are solving the problem of why sane people (at least) commit acts of terror. Crazies... you can't do much about that unless you identify them and prevent them from getting a legal weapon, making it - perhaps??? - harder than obtaining an illegal one. Even then an organised terror cell composed of sociopaths is usually pretty rare, they are usually motivated, but sane people.
If the answer to the question is "No. I don't want to see any more acts of terror", then you have to engage with the why. One incident is not enough to form an opinion. You have to look at all these incidents - at home and abroad - and determine what the common denominators are in order to make any sense of it. What is the motivation, and why have people who commit such atrocities become so motivated that in many cases it also leads to their own death? Once you have figured that out, you need to confront the movers and shakers of any common belief set that leads to this behaviour - in the open where they can be publicly challenged in their beliefs, and held to account.
I'm not saying this is easy. A lot of indoctrination is covert, in private conversations, and in closed internet forums. But it also has people preaching toxic views quite openly, which go unchallenged for a variety of reasons, but often because people are frightened of being ostracised, labelled as discriminatory, racist, Islamophobic, or whatever. This is just a smokescreen for challenging a set of views that may not stand scrutiny if they are openly debated. We have seen this reticence to engage with the police in the UK over their reticence to tackle Asian (predominantly Muslim) paedophile gangs for much the same reasons. It is difficult to challenge communities as to core values, but they need to be challenged for the sake of all. I think it is especially important for Muslims to have the courage to engage in open self reflection and debate, simply because, like it or not, they are the usual suspects in cases like the present one. Is it fair? No. But it is the apparent reality for the wider community.
I don't suggest for a second that the vast majority of Muslims are terrorists, but ask yourself: "If it happens again, how is it that yet another Muslim commits such another atrocity?" And as an identifiable group who then will get blamed? Is it fair that all within that group are guilty? If people then retaliate on the basis of self preservation of their society (or perhaps even maliciously), then who will not say (if not to themselves) - "well they've brought it on themselves, we've had enough" - which endorses further injustice on innocent people. Of course, that outcome doesn't deal with the root cause of the problem, and all that is likely to happen is that more innocent people will be persecuted and harmed, except just from the Muslim community instead. That doesn't resolve the issue, arguably it makes it worse as a vendetta mentality results for all parties.
What the politicos and media need to do is start ramping up public debate and challenging religious-cultural norms of the perpetrators, and adherents of the religion at a national and trans-national level much more than ever. Muslim communities that produce Islamist terrorists must see that the principles of killing, or oppressing people who have different views (even within their faith) is morally wrong. Only then will you start to kill the cancer that is taught to thrive in the minds of those who go on to kill in the name of their faith.
Of course, this will put Muslims on the back foot in the sense they may feel as a matter of injustice (which in a sense it is), that they are under attack, or under scrutiny when as individuals they have done nothing wrong. But the failure to engage with the issue is a far worse issue if socially it degenerates into a 'them and us' issue, whereby non-Muslims say "you people think you can just kill us because we live different lives", and retaliate in kind.
Didn't Hitler justify his increased anti-Semitic violence to the German people in part on the basis that the Jews had attacked Germany (the Reichstag fire etc - when a Jewish Communist apparently admitted liability, so providing the smoking gun (so to speak. [I know an unfortunate use of words in relation to a fire.])), and previous government had done nothing? No debate, no open arguing about the issues to get to the truth (which would expose he was talking rubbish [I guess he wouldn't as a dictator, but we notionally live in a democracy with free speech]). This is just the thing we need to pre-empt.
I'd rather see the fight against extremism being carried out on the battlefield of open, public debate and questioning of religious and cultural norms to find common ground and build on it - however, brutal in argument getting there might be. Bruised egos are much better than killing, or persecution if it changes intolerant mindsets and ultimately saves lives.
We'll never have politicians that are out for anything resembling the common good or common sense government, because they're too busy trying to tap into the graft and corruption pipeline, and getting re-elected to continue the gravy train. I've said it many times - we've totally lost our way in letting "politician" become a job title. It should be a badge of honor, not something that is universally despised, and should really be open to anyone with the common sense, leadership, and organization skills necessary to do the office they're running for, justice.
With regards to the shooting, the media, not to mention Obama, have been utterly despicable during this entire thing. The media especially has been disgusting; they just absolutely LOVE horrific mass events like this because they know people will be tuning in. (Yes, I know, people themselves are probably not that sick, but the organization as a whole is enamored with these things, which is just awful.) The fact that they had some local CARE representative on camera literally within hours wringing his hands and telling people to not jump to conclusions made it pretty obvious the guy was a radical Muslim, even before I'd seen any other coverage. I know some news organizations did come out and say this eventually, but still, the ability they have to avoid the truth as Boggit so well said is extraordinary.
Too many +1000s to count. O0
From "Being Classically Liberal"
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13393928_884808794974634_736020647950140286_n.jpg?oh=0e1a9d1a291d82e59b48f9688c97996a&oe=57D0D827)
Boggit:
Your points are all reasonable.
Another factual observation. The shooting occurred in a "gun free zone" where there were no metal detectors or armed guards. The shooter was guaranteed to have a target rich environment where the targets were not armed. Different day, same story. Mass shootings in the US are much more likely to occur in a gun free zone with no metal detectors or armed guards.
As you pointed out, the shooter was radicalized seemingly without 2-way communication. The (ex)wife is being interviewed about her knowledge. The Iman you bring up seems highly relevant.
Gun Free Zones without guards and active surveillance can become death traps. Very rare, but death traps if you get very unlucky. Still, a nightclub with booming sounds and flashing lights would be a very difficult environment for a good guy with a gun. But I'm still betting that if a couple of people had been carrying concealed the death toll would have been far lower.
As far as the gun control stuff goes. Rifles are responsible for almost no homicides in the USA. There are a huge number of Ar-15 variants in circulation in the USA. And yes, they are used for hunting as well as recreational shooting. AR-15 variants are responsible for almost no US homicides. The round the evil scum used was a .223 which is more likely to wound than kill without a straight kill shot (head, heart, spot where there is a lot of blood loss). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
"Assault Weapon" is a scary word about guns that look scary. The only thing that could have possibly made any difference is a limit on clip sizes. A limit on clip size increases the number of times you must reload.
The shooter had been thoroughly checked by the feds and worked as an armed guard. No background check would have caught him.
There are occasional terrorist attacks by radical Muslims in the US and Europe. Far more occur in Muslim countries. Although the are a small minority of Muslims, this is still a defining characteristic. Those circles and websites need to be carefully monitored. Not using rational thought for fear of "profiling" is idiotic. But non-violent Muslims are the key information source for police and national security people. You need to do this in a way that you don't stigmatize all Muslims while being realistic about the threat.
@Airboy :)
Likewise I agree with almost all of what you are saying. Your point about avoiding the stigmatisation of the Islamic community is perhaps best tackled from within the Islamic community, so as to encourage an alternate mindset to traditional norms which is why I mentioned it in this post, http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=17185.msg452085#msg452085 since much is embedded in cultural and religious interpretation as justification for aberrant behaviour...
I do beg to differ a little with you on some technical aspects you raise with the AR15 including the lethality of its round, which you mentioned as a gun control issue (and if I've misinterpreted what you have said, then I apologise at this point). FWIW, my take on the 'assault rifle', was from the description from the media. Whenever I used automatic weapons in the past like submachine guns I was taught to fire in short bursts rather than spray as you have a better chance to hit something before you run out of ammo. If this guy had any similar training, he might be slightly more frugal with his rate of fire. Even so, a semi automatic rifle is a bloody dangerous weapon in the wrong hands, and you can clear a clip pretty fast if you really want to - I had one (a 7.62mm L1A1 SLR) when I served in the British army. If you want to make one automatic at the risk of breaking the firing pin, you can do it by sticking a matchstick, or similar behind the firing pin, and I guess that might work too with an AR15. The point you make about reloads is fair, but again if you want quick reloads you can always tape magazines back to back effectively doubling up.
As to the ammo, you do realise that the .223 round for the AR15 roughly equates to a 5.56x45mm round used by many militaries in NATO? I agree with your point about the lesser hitting power, but lighter rounds can be pretty bad too depending where they hit. We had this discussion way back when the L1A1 SLR gave way to the SA80 which uses a 5.56mm round. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80 If you hit someone with the SLR (7.62mm round) say in the wrist, you had a good chance of taking the hand off, but with the SA80's lighter round - depending on the angle hit - it might travel even along the arm and come out through the neck, which is usually fatal. Obviously a torso hit with a 7.62mm is usually fatal with a big exit hole, but the lighter 5.56 especially if it hits something hard like a bone, deforms, or cavitates on impact can go whizzing round the internal organs doing all sorts of mischief.
Given that the .223 round you mention is pretty similar to the round that the SA80 uses, then at close range with a high velocity rifle it will maintain a lot of killing power through kinetic energy, which otherwise gets lost over distance. I'd suggest in those circumstances, a .223 (5.56x45mm) round will be lethal at close range and will not require the accuracy of hit you suggest. At close range, with a high velocity weapon, even if you miss an organ you can still kill just from the hydrostatic shock on the body.
I know the broad theory of the heavier vs lighter round from back in the day as it was discussed at length. Thankfully I have never shot and killed anyone, so the reality of truly knowing the actual effect of hitting someone with a 5.56mm round at different distances is outside my experience. I know you hunt, and I wonder what you have noticed as substantial differences in the nature of fatal wounds occasioned by different calibres of round? As a matter of your practical experience do you really need to be as accurate at close range with 5.56mm round as at long range to obtain a kill?
Has it been announced that he was using .223? I know they've retracted their original statements (not that the agenda driven media is paying any attention) and said the killer used a Sig-Sauer MCX rather than an AR-15 variant as was originally reported. The MCX is a modular carbine and can be set up to fire .223, .300 blackout, or 7.62x39.
I know it's reasonably popular here in Canada even though it's classified as restricted due to its barrel length. I briefly looked into one but with with the Ar in .204 because I'm an idiot.
I got the data on the weapon from the Wall St. Journal and they usually have their facts right.
Boggit - I don't want to get shot with anything.
You did misinterpret one small thing. The gun was a semi-automatic and not an automatic rifle. The term "assault weapon" used in the mainstream press and by almost all Democrats is a scare word. Automatic weapons have very strict procedures to obtain one - quite similar to the process used to obtain explosives.
"....Wielding an AR-15 semi-automatic [emphasis added] rifle...." He killed and wounded all those people with a semi-automatic!
Thanks for mentioning the Wall Street Journal (http://www.sharonherald.com/news/local_news/shooter-appears-to-have-been-homegrown-extremist/article_824e5582-80f7-5dd2-8fb6-e213e4ce25a9.html), airboy. I didn't check that source. O0
Quote from: airboy on June 16, 2016, 10:41:24 AM
I got the data on the weapon from the Wall St. Journal and they usually have their facts right.
Boggit - I don't want to get shot with anything.
You did misinterpret one small thing. The gun was a semi-automatic and not an automatic rifle. The term "assault weapon" used in the mainstream press and by almost all Democrats is a scare word. Automatic weapons have very strict procedures to obtain one - quite similar to the process used to obtain explosives.
I hope you never get shot too! :o :)
You make a fair comment. Like I said, I used the term "assault rifle" because that was what we were initially told was used. As it turns out, you are quite right that it was a semi-automatic, and yet again you are right that the terminology of "assault weapon" has its own set of connotations used to manipulate opinion in the media (and usually by people who really don't know much of what they are talking about). Even so, I did mentioned in my last post that a semi-automatic can be a bloody dangerous weapon in the wrong hands, as Greybriar in the post above also points out. Plus you can empty a mag pretty quick if you really want to with arguably much more accurate fire. At close range you could kill a lot of people within a minute, even getting through a couple of clips in that time.
Did you agree with my view on the effect of the ammunition at close range, or does your hunting experience make you conclude otherwise? I agree with you that at long range a 5.56 doesn't have the stopping power of a larger calibre, but at close range surely the kinetic power of the round, and its behaviour (contact deformation, cavitation etc) is a different matter?
To clarify, I don't want you to think that I think these killings are down to gun ownership. It is an efficient method for killing, but there are other equally, and perhaps more lethal methods that could have been used. I don't know of the media, nor the anti-gun lobby calling for the ban on pressure cookers, nor of pipes - both legitimate items on their own, but also capable of conversion into effective bombs... and which also have a track record in terrorist atrocity.
These shootings are, in my opinion, down to a toxic ideology underpinned with the fanaticism of the religious zealot. More than anything, it is this which needs addressing rather than the means to achieve the atrocity. This is why I say the gun issue being played up by the media and politicians is incidental to why a mass killing occurred. In the absence of a gun this guy could still have carried out a mass killing. He would have just had to use a different method to achieve his purpose.
I'll also make this general point, about focusing the terrorism debate on a political agenda area, which really is incidental to the crime happening. Here in the UK full bore gun ownership is generally illegal (shotguns and some target weapons excepted), but it hasn't stopped gun violence. Gun violence is arguably more prevalent now than before when we could legally own full bore fire arms because of the relative availability of illegal weapons. Today, we had one of our own members of Parliament shot and stabbed, and as I say guns are mostly illegal in the UK. Sadly, it didn't prevent the MP getting shot. http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/mp-jo-cox-dies-after-being-shot-and-stabbed/ar-AAh87zG?OCID=ansmsnnews11
The general lethality of a .223 is less than a .308 or a .30-06. The most dangerous short range weapon I own is a .12 gage semi-auto shotgun. If I take out the plug I have 6 rounds. But in general I fear dangerous people more than dangerous weapons.
I'm really against "fake gun free zones." The only way to enforce a true gun free zone is detection (metal, scanner, etc....) and armed guards. In the USA an airport or a courtroom is a true "gun free zone." My university in Alabama is a "gun free zone." We have stickers on the doors. And that is it. It is insane.
Quote from: airboy on June 16, 2016, 05:56:46 PM
The general lethality of a .223 is less than a .308 or a .30-06. The most dangerous short range weapon I own is a .12 gage semi-auto shotgun. If I take out the plug I have 6 rounds. But in general I fear dangerous people more than dangerous weapons.
I'm really against "fake gun free zones." The only way to enforce a true gun free zone is detection (metal, scanner, etc....) and armed guards. In the USA an airport or a courtroom is a true "gun free zone." My university in Alabama is a "gun free zone." We have stickers on the doors. And that is it. It is insane.
+1. You're right about the dangerous people. O0
As to the "gun free zone" stickers on the doors... :o You must have a lot of trust with that one... :2funny: :idiot2: do you see the university relying on it as a legal defence if someone gets shot, and a claim is then made against the university for being vicariously liable in failing to adequately enforce the "gun free zone"? I'm surprised it hasn't been an issue at the university senate?
When President Obama and the Left starts enforcing immigration laws, when they start deporting those here illegally that are arrested and jailed for committing other crimes, when they start deporting those killing Americans while driving vehicles without ever having taken a single driving class, when they start cutting off all federal funds to those local governments that have openly declared themselves sanctuary's, when they started dropping the hammer on employers that do not use E-Verify, then we can begin to have discussion on gun control. Until then, they can get off their high-horse and shut the hell up.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 16, 2016, 06:35:52 PM
When President Obama and the Left starts enforcing immigration laws, when they start deporting those here illegally that are arrested and jailed for committing other crimes, when they start deporting those killing Americans while driving vehicles without ever having taken a single driving class, when they start cutting off all federal funds to those local governments that have openly declared themselves sanctuary's, when they started dropping the hammer on employers that do not use E-Verify, then we can begin to have discussion on gun control. Until then, they can get off their high-horse and shut the hell up.
Agreed.
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 16, 2016, 07:07:33 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 16, 2016, 06:35:52 PM
When President Obama and the Left starts enforcing immigration laws, when they start deporting those here illegally that are arrested and jailed for committing other crimes, when they start deporting those killing Americans while driving vehicles without ever having taken a single driving class, when they start cutting off all federal funds to those local governments that have openly declared themselves sanctuary's, when they started dropping the hammer on employers that do not use E-Verify, then we can begin to have discussion on gun control. Until then, they can get off their high-horse and shut the hell up.
Agreed.
+1 Where can I vote for OJsDad?
Quote from: mirth on June 16, 2016, 07:11:45 PM
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 16, 2016, 07:07:33 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 16, 2016, 06:35:52 PM
When President Obama and the Left starts enforcing immigration laws, when they start deporting those here illegally that are arrested and jailed for committing other crimes, when they start deporting those killing Americans while driving vehicles without ever having taken a single driving class, when they start cutting off all federal funds to those local governments that have openly declared themselves sanctuary's, when they started dropping the hammer on employers that do not use E-Verify, then we can begin to have discussion on gun control. Until then, they can get off their high-horse and shut the hell up.
Agreed.
+1 Where can I vote for OJsDad?
Perhaps the Common Sense Party.
I always thought the Emperor OJsDad of the Terran Empire had a better ring to it than President OJsDad.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 16, 2016, 07:18:52 PM
I always thought the Emperor OJsDad of the Terran Empire had a better ring to it than President OJsDad.
Lol! ;D
But well said in your penultimate post. I wouldn't hold your breath for them to get their priorities right though. ::)