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I am definitely going to get a campaign started on this. I've read time and again how superb it is - and I just have to get it going...this time!
Very narrative. Almost like you're generating a crew's story.
I recall it getting a bit repetitive after awhile, but that's not unusual for solitaire wargames featuring a series of chart rolls.
The most common complaint against B-17 is that as a player, you just don't have a lot of decision making to do. I tend to agree with that. I was disappointed to find the same was true of "The Hunters". I still think that the best game that uses this solitaire mechanic that does involve the player (at least more so than others) is "Patton's Best". But agree with Nefaro, even PB gets very repetitive after a short while. That said, don't scrub the mission because of my negativity- find out for yourself and give us the details of how the mission(s) go!
Good timing - Stuka Joe has put up the first video log of his B-17 flight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulu6DBUUXJI
You might recognize some of the crew members if you follow wargame video reviews.
I've never played B-17 but was always interested in it. A guy who used to come around to the nerd store once brought in his copy of
Thunderbirds at War, which is a solo game that looks very similar to B-17. This one covers the RCAF and Wellington bombers. We did a co-op version of the game in the store and I enjoyed it. I tried to get a copy of the game which came in Paper Wars magazine from Compass Games but I couldn't find it locally and the online retailers were asking far too much for it.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on June 19, 2016, 05:55:33 PM
I've never played B-17 but was always interested in it.
Legion games has a pre-order up for it's version of B-17 QotS,
Target For Today. New game, new components, and adds B-24.
http://www.legionwargames.com/legion_pre-order.php#TFT
Not sure when it's being printed, but they passed their goal and it's getting done at some point.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legionwargames.com%2Fimages%2FTFT_components.jpg&hash=622c3adf257869e3f88c91c4228aaa1682012b28)
I have their B-29 version, and it's Hell Over Korea expansion. I think the base game suffered from the historical circumstances of the theater match-up over Japan. But it's very similar to QotS regarding mechanics. The Korea expansion reportedly moves the worries back towards enemy planes & AA, as compared to navigation and fuel being the biggest problems in the Japanese bombing of the original (although I've not tried the expansion yet).
Also saw that they've put another solitaire wargame up recently:
QuoteA Glorious Chance is a solitaire, operational wargame that puts you in command of the U.S. or British naval squadron on Lake Ontario in 1813. You have four months to dominate the lake. But each patrol, each convoy mission, each amphibious landing you make to pursue victory risks full-scale battle with the enemy squadron - a battle that could leave you triumphant or shattered in a matter of hours. A dynamic card-driven AI opponent assigns British missions, refits and launches new ships, and plots raids on your supply routes and coastlines.
http://www.legionwargames.com/legion_AGC.html
hrmmmm... ^-^
mmmm
I don't know that I want to continue with this really. It seems to have got complicated - or just cumbersome.
My B-17 was hit twice in the oxygen tank in the tail meaning I had to drop to 10,000ft out of formation. I did the bomb run and then on the turn around, I was attacked by 3 waves of fighters. That's 9 waves (3 waves x 3 attacks because of out of formation). Then all the hits that go with the attacks!!
The first wave was 4 aircraft +1 Me109 (for out of formation). I was hit once in the pilot compartment on the instrument panel. I then roll again (twice) to determine the new attack positions for all 5 aircraft (a miss from these does not mean an automatic removal of them due to the out of formation)....
I then have to go through all that again - for the other two waves...and not forgetting I have to also check for low flak each time and all the hits that come from that!
I'm knackered looking up tables and rolling die!!
That's the unfortunate part of a solitaire game sadly. Patton's Best gets old too constantly having to refer to and then roll on a chart for every little thing. So you'd think that a PC program that handled all that for you would make it an outstanding game; well unfortunately again, it bores you to tears. There was a computer port of B-17- it wasn't pretty but it worked but it was just boring as snot because you're really not playing anything...you're just hitting "Continue to....", " Continue to.... ", " Continue to.... " all the time.
Interestingly though, I watched about 10 episodes of Stuka Joe's go with the game and was totally immersed. He did a really good job with those and it does what the game seems to not do; tell a story that really sucks you in. You lose that when a life or death situation for a crew member rests on a simple 1d6 roll on a chart. It is what it is though - good for a handful of missions maybe and then the repetition just gets to the point that it's not worth the effort any longer.
Probably why I tend to play non-wargame solitaire stuff more often. They tend to feature much more decision making and little to no charts, nor long DRM lists.
A popular solitaire favorite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYgms0iIFj0) is the Mage Knight Boardgame, as one example. I think some of the card-driven solo games, like RAF and the D-Day series, are mechanically closer to these types than the charts & tables driven ones. Other than the themes, of course, but there are advantages to game design outside historical constraints.
At the risk of Gary burning me at the stake as a heretic, I think the most dynamic & decision-heavy solitaire strategy to be had is mostly in the fictional designs. Even what I'd consider to be good solitaire wargames (i.e. some DVG & DG stuff) tend to get repetitive at some point in a playthrough. Falling into using the same few strategies for success, and going through the same paces, since there are no large & regular situational changes or surprises to make you radically shift your strategy on the fly (a good sign of an engaging solitaire system).
I need those, "Surprise! Your plan hasn't survived contact. Time to reevaluate and pull it out of the fire!" moments on a regular basis. Keeps the thinkmeats warm, with more thinking & less slog.
No, no stake burning from me. I don't even play fantasy based games but I can tell you that I just know that they'd make better solitaire games. I imagine something like a dungeon crawler where you have many decisions to make such as where to venture to, what treasures to take, what weapons to purchase and use, what potions to drink, who to take along in your party....lots of choices that add to a story. That's what makes a solitaire game a good one; the story that it tells and how immersed you get into that story. You'd think that B-17 would have a good story to tell but all the charting and dicing just kill the mood. Yeah, a fantasy game that uses a card mechanic where the cards have some cool looking artwork on them and there's a background story to go along with it...shit, I'll make that game if there isn't one already!
I did like the look of the game and I liked the sound of it - try and get your bomber crew through 25 missions.
I think what threw me was the fact that the first two missions resulted in nothing occurring. Enemy fighters were non-existent in both missions. No flak hits...straight bomb run with 20% and 30% hits on each mission.
This one, all hell has broken loose.
And.....maybe that's how I should be looking at it...all hell breaking loose.
I think I might write it in the form of a wee story. Perhaps that will help me to get into it. I can't do that more than once though - so if it is the "story" aspect the game needs to keep me into it, it's lasting one play through and then it's over.
I'll see about a wee story thing - see if it keeps me sucked in.
Cool to see this. Thunderbirds at War was designed by Michel Boucher, who is the president of our local wargaming club.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on June 19, 2016, 05:55:33 PM
I've never played B-17 but was always interested in it. A guy who used to come around to the nerd store once brought in his copy of Thunderbirds at War, which is a solo game that looks very similar to B-17. This one covers the RCAF and Wellington bombers. We did a co-op version of the game in the store and I enjoyed it. I tried to get a copy of the game which came in Paper Wars magazine from Compass Games but I couldn't find it locally and the online retailers were asking far too much for it.
I used to play with the Boardgamegeek.com, B-17 QOTS 281st Bomber Wing, 8th AF.
In fact I recommend it. You sign up then you get notice on "The Target For Today" and then they determine your position, and then everyone runs the mission and you give your AAR. You get the entire week to do your run, and report in.
^ Thank you
IMHO, one of the compelling aspects of gaming has always been narrative. For me, that narrative becomes more "personal" with the game scale. So when I play large scale games (operational, campaign or large battle), the narrative is typically about key moments. I may like to win and hate to lose, but I seldom "feel" anything when I lose 1000+ men represented by the single counter of the 130 Rgt of the Panzer Lehr. When I play squad, tactical or skirmish level games, the narrative often focuses on specific units - the M4 with nine lives, the squad weapon that held on, etc. And when I play individual combat games, the narrative becomes very personal - almost RPG like. I really WANT my Gunslinger / Melee fighter / WWI pilot to survive because "he is me" in some kind of vicarious way. B-17 is one of the few games that got me to "care" about the fate of ten fictitious characters written on a piece of paper. "I" could be (or could have been) anyone one of "them". And I think the very thing that many gamers criticize about B-17 - the randomness, the lack of control - is the very thing that makes the game so compelling. You are along for the ride; sometimes it's a milk run; sometimes it ain't and shit happens and for no good reason.
Most of us have wonderful lives where we feel in control of our own fate, and it's uncomfortable to think of situations where that may not be so. B-17 was one of first games to show me that reality. I think that's probably why it's still played by so many, today.
Quote from: Jack Nastyface on June 23, 2016, 05:15:38 PM
IMHO, one of the compelling aspects of gaming has always been narrative. For me, that narrative becomes more "personal" with the game scale. So when I play large scale games (operational, campaign or large battle), the narrative is typically about key moments. I may like to win and hate to lose, but I seldom "feel" anything when I lose 1000+ men represented by the single counter of the 130 Rgt of the Panzer Lehr. When I play squad, tactical or skirmish level games, the narrative often focuses on specific units - the M4 with nine lives, the squad weapon that held on, etc. And when I play individual combat games, the narrative becomes very personal - almost RPG like. I really WANT my Gunslinger / Melee fighter / WWI pilot to survive because "he is me" in some kind of vicarious way. B-17 is one of the few games that got me to "care" about the fate of ten fictitious characters written on a piece of paper. "I" could be (or could have been) anyone one of "them". And I think the very thing that many gamers criticize about B-17 - the randomness, the lack of control - is the very thing that makes the game so compelling. You are along for the ride; sometimes it's a milk run; sometimes it ain't and shit happens and for no good reason.
Most of us have wonderful lives where we feel in control of our own fate, and it's uncomfortable to think of situations where that may not be so. B-17 was one of first games to show me that reality. I think that's probably why it's still played by so many, today.
O0
This is why I've had my copy for 30+ years.
Maybe I just wasn't ready for the huge amount of die rolling.
It's still on the table and I'll keep it going for the time being.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 20, 2016, 04:00:10 PM
mmmm
I don't know that I want to continue with this really. It seems to have got complicated - or just cumbersome.
My B-17 was hit twice in the oxygen tank in the tail meaning I had to drop to 10,000ft out of formation. I did the bomb run and then on the turn around, I was attacked by 3 waves of fighters. That's 9 waves (3 waves x 3 attacks because of out of formation). Then all the hits that go with the attacks!!
The first wave was 4 aircraft +1 Me109 (for out of formation). I was hit once in the pilot compartment on the instrument panel. I then roll again (twice) to determine the new attack positions for all 5 aircraft (a miss from these does not mean an automatic removal of them due to the out of formation)....
I then have to go through all that again - for the other two waves...and not forgetting I have to also check for low flak each time and all the hits that come from that!
I'm knackered looking up tables and rolling die!!
Being knocked out of formation will take a ten minute mission, and turn it into two hours of dice rolling insanity....the entire time, watching your beloved bomber slowly get shot to pieces. I have enjoyed this experience dozens, if not hundreds of times. It's always an oh SH!T moment, when you oxygen system gets put out of action.
Well. I broke out B-17: Queen of the Skies a little while ago...it's been awhile.
But, I have played this game so many times, I didn't need any kind of refresher.
Second mission, to Meaulte, good fighter cover, no flak, bomb run ON TARGET.
...and I roll boxcars. Twelve. All you gamers that play this game know what this means! "88% + 2D6" for bomb damage. I got up, went downstairs, and told the missus..."I rolled boxcars." She looked at me like I was nuts, I do this a lot...comments without context.
...aaaand I go upstairs, shake the doo-doo out of the two dice, and roll .... another 12. First. Time. Ever. 100% on target.
Why would something this stupid mean so much?
My minis and battle board finally arrived! Haven't opened the box yet though. :buck2:
Quote from: DennisS on June 03, 2017, 06:28:03 PM
Well. I broke out B-17: Queen of the Skies a little while ago...it's been awhile.
But, I have played this game so many times, I didn't need any kind of refresher.
Second mission, to Meaulte, good fighter cover, no flak, bomb run ON TARGET.
...and I roll boxcars. Twelve. All you gamers that play this game know what this means! "88% + 2D6" for bomb damage. I got up, went downstairs, and told the missus..."I rolled boxcars." She looked at me like I was nuts, I do this a lot...comments without context.
...aaaand I go upstairs, shake the doo-doo out of the two dice, and roll .... another 12. First. Time. Ever. 100% on target.
Why would something this stupid mean so much?
I've never played this game, but I get this!
Got a good chuckle, thanks! O0
Quote from: bbmike on June 03, 2017, 07:52:21 PM
My minis and battle board finally arrived! Haven't opened the box yet though. :buck2:
For B17:QotS? Where did you get those from?
He's mixing this up with DVG B17 Leader.
At least you got the B-17 part right :P
Quote from: Nefaro on June 20, 2016, 07:07:29 AM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on June 19, 2016, 05:55:33 PM
I've never played B-17 but was always interested in it.
Legion games has a pre-order up for it's version of B-17 QotS, Target For Today. New game, new components, and adds B-24.
http://www.legionwargames.com/legion_pre-order.php#TFT
Not sure when it's being printed, but they passed their goal and it's getting done at some point.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legionwargames.com%2Fimages%2FTFT_components.jpg&hash=622c3adf257869e3f88c91c4228aaa1682012b28)
Target for Today is due to ship June 7th.
http://legionwargames.com/ (http://legionwargames.com/)
I have the original game, and frankly fall into the camp that thinks the original game had too few decision points for the player. But I have bought into the advertising, and am awaiting my copy of TFT.
The designer has put a PDF version of the rules out: http://www.stevenkdixon.com/TFT_rules_print.pdf (http://www.stevenkdixon.com/TFT_rules_print.pdf)
Here is the description on Board Game Geek:
TARGET FOR TODAY is an advanced update of Glen Frank's classic game B17, QUEEN OF THE SKIES. Some familiarity with that game is assumed, but "TARGET FOR TODAY" is a completely new game -you do not need to own B-17, QUEEN OF THE SKIES to play it. New tables are included and the rules are organized according to the sequence of play in any typical mission. TARGET FOR TODAY is designed so that each individual mission is fast and easy to play. The campaign game that comprises your tour of duty offers the player a game that is rich in detail, making the game as realistic as possible while still remaining playable.
In the tradition of B-17 Queen of the Skies, and following in the foot steps of B-29 Superfortress, comes a new solitaire game from Steve Dixon. Bob Best and Shawn Rife Steve Dixon. Tentatively titled "Bombs Away!", it has been renamed "Target for Today!". Fly a single mission, a single campaign or fly the entire air campaign from 1942 to 1945 with the 8th or 15th Air Force, piloting either a B-17F, B17G, B24D, B24J and for those so inclined, the YB-40.
The target list will be greatly expanded for the 8th and 15th Air Forces. Enemy planes we plan to provide are the Me-109, Fw-190, Ju-88, Me-110, Me-210, Me-410, He-162, Me-163, Me-262, and Ta-152.
^ Nice O0
Question......
Were B-29's deployed in Europe?
I've never come across any material that mentioned them. But I've obviously not exhausted the library for the era.
This source suggests they were not
https://www.quora.com/Why-werent-B29s-used-instead-of-B17s-in-European-raids
The Brits used a few (as transports, I think) but they were known as 'Washingtons' IIRC
Quote from: acctingman on June 03, 2017, 11:54:52 PM
Quote from: DennisS on June 03, 2017, 06:28:03 PM
Well. I broke out B-17: Queen of the Skies a little while ago...it's been awhile.
But, I have played this game so many times, I didn't need any kind of refresher.
Second mission, to Meaulte, good fighter cover, no flak, bomb run ON TARGET.
...and I roll boxcars. Twelve. All you gamers that play this game know what this means! "88% + 2D6" for bomb damage. I got up, went downstairs, and told the missus..."I rolled boxcars." She looked at me like I was nuts, I do this a lot...comments without context.
...aaaand I go upstairs, shake the doo-doo out of the two dice, and roll .... another 12. First. Time. Ever. 100% on target.
Why would something this stupid mean so much?
I've never played this game, but I get this!
Got a good chuckle, thanks! O0
In reality, I was overdue. 1/36 times 1/36 is 1,296. I have played way more missions than this. Documented. I track EVERYTHING, and can tell you to three decimals what my average bombing score is. (16.543). This is what makes this game so much fun. I have all the play aids mostly memorized, and can rip through a mission just as fast as I can roll the dice.
Damn, why did I accidentally post in this thread? Now I want to buy Target For Today. :D
OK grognards..I need some help.
I LOVE to roleplay my airmen, and similar to Patton's Best, I want awards and decs for my fliers.
Here's what I have come up with..and it needs tweaking.
Points per mission are now earned at the following rate:
1 point per bombing damage for each flyer, 2 points for the bombadier
5 points per zone traveled for each flyer
10 points for successful landing, for pilot and copilot
40 points per ME-109 killed for the gunner responsible
60 points per ME-110 killed for the gunner responsible
80 points per FW-190 killed for the gunner responsible
5 points per each fighter killed in the mission, for each flyer
Light wound: 20 points
Serious wound/Frostbite: 40 points
KIA: 60 points
2 points for each non-superficial hit the aircraft suffers
After all points are totaled, add 1D6 x 1D6 (1-36 additional) to the total
280 points - Airman's Medal
300 points - Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC)
320 points - Bronze Star
340 points - Silver Star
360 points - Distinguished Service Medal (DSM)
380 points - Distinguished Service Cross (DSC)
400 points - Congressional Medal of Honor (CMoH)
Each five missions earns an Airman's Medal for each flyer.
Each award which duplicates an award already received earns the next higher award instead, with the exception of the Airman's Medal
I have ran a ton of scenarios, to see if this passes the smell test, and I believe it does. I JUST finished a massively long mission to La Rochelle, and my ball turret gunner got three kills, the plane got all shot up, it was a successful mission (40%), and there were eight total kills by the crew. He just missed the CMoH...and I am OK with this.
This adds a little bookkeeping, but it really increases the immersiveness of the game. Your thoughts on possible additions or modifications?
Quote from: bob48 on June 04, 2017, 02:50:51 PM
The Brits used a few (as transports, I think) but they were known as 'Washingtons' IIRC
Post-war, Bomber Command equipped few squadrons with 29s. They weren't in RAF service for very long.
Once the RAF got the nuke-capable Canberra the B-29's were returned to the US.
Here's a post on the War Thunder forums from a guy with info on the Washington and the squadrons that flew it:
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/112485-raf-washington-b1-the-british-b-29/
One of his pix:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-www.airliners.net%2Faviation-photos%2Fphotos%2F6%2F0%2F3%2F0747306.jpg&hash=373868ce0e5bf2b86c0ea4544eff522c237e3b41)
No doubt, we were thrilled to have them back.
Good stuff, Stagger. Thanks for posting that.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 05, 2017, 06:21:44 PM
Once the RAF got the nuke-capable Canberra the B-29's were returned to the US.
Here's a post on the War Thunder forums from a guy with info on the Washington and the squadrons that flew it:
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/112485-raf-washington-b1-the-british-b-29/
One of his pix:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn-www.airliners.net%2Faviation-photos%2Fphotos%2F6%2F0%2F3%2F0747306.jpg&hash=373868ce0e5bf2b86c0ea4544eff522c237e3b41)
I was stationed at an RAF base in the mid '70's, (Woodbridge) that still had Canberra's assigned to it. It also had F-4's, soon to convert over to the first base in Europe to get A-10's.
So...I am cruising along in B-17: Queen of the Skies, and I roll a 12 for the fighter wave. Unusual, a random event. I roll again, and get a Rabbit's Foot! This enables me to re-roll any one roll.
...aaaand much farther into the mission, I roll for flak, get light flak, and roll light. This is great, as only a 2 or a 12, a total of 2/36 chance for flak hitting the craft. I roll none, none, and then a 12. Damn. Ooook. Time to use the Rabbit's foot. It's a short mission, and this will stop the -1 drm for the bombing run, pretty significant.
What happens? I re-roll a frigging 2. The chances of me rolling a 12 then a 2 is 1,296, exactly the same odds as me rolling 100% damage the other day.
With the -1 DRM, I needed a 4-6 for an ON TARGET roll, and naturally rolled a 3.
Can't really complain, this plane is on its 21 mission. VERY rare to complete all 25. The secret? Abort early, and often, and every chance I can, and still get credit for the mission.
Target for Today has arrived. A nice hefty package.
Here is an almost too detailed unboxing vid...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSGt4vD5cyE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSGt4vD5cyE)