And Risk doesn't count. Neither does Stratego.
What's the best wargame you've found for introducing people to wargaming? What are the basic tenets of tabletop wargaming they need to grasp and what games do the best job of laying those out for them? How do you explain the concepts of movement, quantified combat power, etc and what games have helped you do that?
Simple is best.
Lock 'n Load's Tank of Tank. Reaching back a couple decades, something like Steve Jackson's Ogre or GEV.
Why doesn't Risk count? How about Axis and Allies?
Quote from: Gusington on February 07, 2012, 10:46:48 AM
Why doesn't Risk count? How about Axis and Allies?
I'm with Gus here... Risk and Axis & Allies were my entries into the field.
But I would say
Memoir 44. Simple, tactical minis game, enough war to please a wargamer, easy enough for the newbie. It has terrain modifiers and other "hardcore' elements (like movement points, LOS, and flanking), but also has limited choice through card play.
Speaking of Steve Jackson's Ogre... any news on the reprint? Also any news on how I can get my hands on the reprint?
You know as much as I hated the computer version, I really like Memoir '44 the board game. I found it to be ideal for solitaire play but with a friend is better.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 07, 2012, 12:06:21 PM
Quote from: Gusington on February 07, 2012, 10:46:48 AM
Why doesn't Risk count? How about Axis and Allies?
I'm with Gus here... Risk and Axis & Allies were my entries into the field.
But I would say Memoir 44. Simple, tactical minis game, enough war to please a wargamer, easy enough for the newbie. It has terrain modifiers and other "hardcore' elements (like movement points, LOS, and flanking), but also has limited choice through card play.
Speaking of Steve Jackson's Ogre... any news on the reprint? Also any news on how I can get my hands on the reprint?
I have not kept up with the reprint.
SJG will often send press copies for review, but I don't think I'm the guy to ask for one. When they released their minis game ten years ago I raved about it. I then asked for a copy of Frag, which they sent me. I gave it average marks - the game was too dependent on dice rolls. I don't think they liked that and they have never sent me another copy of anything for review. So if you want a copy, I would suggest you ask them directly and assiduously avoid mentioning my name.
I'm of a few minds on "best intro wargame"...
I've introduced a few kids to wargames using minis-based games, like Wings of War, and had positive results. The rules are simple, the minis are nice, and there is nice "imagination" element to the game. Plus, ambient sound effects (takka-takka-takka!) are not out of place. Some of the kids I have played with have shown an interest in moving onto to other games, like Axis and Allies minis, or even the Star Wars mini game.
When it comes to adults, finding the right era and scale can be critical. My first "real" wargame was D-Day by Avalon Hill...although I like the era, I couldn't stand the scale. When I later played Midway (also AH) and I saw that individual counters represented individual ships, I was totally hooked. When I later tried recruiting friends to play wargames, some responded well to man-to-man games (Melee, Car Wars, basic rules Flight Leader, various RPG's) but others liked the large scale battle or theatre games.
Time commitment is definately another factor. Finding something that can be taught and played over a couple of hours has its benefits. I was recently introduced to a Combat Commander in this way, and thought it would possibly be a good intro game.
FWIW...I tend to steer new players away from massive collectible games, like Warhammer, only because they represent a big investment.
Yours in gaming,
Jack Nastyface
I'm wondeering if maybe that Airborne game by Avalanche Press might work ( I haven't had the time to get into the Panzer Grenadier system -but have read their one page rule blurb that they used to (might still for all I know) include with their games.
Although, I started, back in the day with AH's War at Sea and Tactics II.
Quote from: southern_cross_116 on February 07, 2012, 05:56:14 PM
I'm wondeering if maybe that Airborne game by Avalanche Press might work ( I haven't had the time to get into the Panzer Grenadier system -but have read their one page rule blurb that they used to (might still for all I know) include with their games.
Although, I started, back in the day with AH's War at Sea and Tactics II.
I've got a copy but never played it. Not even sure if I read the entire rules.
I was another Risk and Axis & Allies convert. Memoir 44 also has a valid argument.
IMHO the game should be easy to learn and easy to master in order to introduce someone into the genre. From there depending on their tastes I think would dictate what to do next.
Victory by Columbia Games.
Lots of scenarios, tons of maps, easy rules, with expansion sets to add complexity as you learn.
No Retreat from GMT would be a good one. Simple supply rules, and you'll avoid bombarding them with 7,000 counters on a paper map. But it still covers weather effects, terrain modifiers, strategic rail movement and all that.
Command & Colors : Napoleonics would be suggestion #2. It has a little more detail than Memoir...multiple unit types and sub types with different attack and movement rates...but still isn't too difficult to grasp. Terrain effects, combined arms, leaders, all that stuff is in there.
I concur with the Command and Colors suggestion. I believe there is even an iOS version of the Ancients one that would be a cheaper and quicker learning tool.
LB, I think the reprint of Ogre is a limited run, so they probably don't care about or want reviews. I may just take the plunge, depending on the price.
I think I read somewhere that Ogre was delayed. Again. He's been talking about this game for years now, so you have to wonder if maybe he's getting cold feet about actually producing it.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 09, 2012, 01:33:33 AM
I think I read somewhere that Ogre was delayed. Again. He's been talking about this game for years now, so you have to wonder if maybe he's getting cold feet about actually producing it.
I think it's a race between the
Ogre reprint, and the
Up Front reprint, for the
Duke Nukem vaporware award of games-that-are-
never-coming-out.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 09, 2012, 07:30:32 AM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 09, 2012, 01:33:33 AM
I think I read somewhere that Ogre was delayed. Again. He's been talking about this game for years now, so you have to wonder if maybe he's getting cold feet about actually producing it.
I think it's a race between the Ogre reprint, and the Up Front reprint, for the Duke Nukem vaporware award of games-that-are-never-coming-out.
Surely
World in Flames has got to be on that list as well.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 09, 2012, 01:33:33 AM
I think I read somewhere that Ogre was delayed. Again. He's been talking about this game for years now, so you have to wonder if maybe he's getting cold feet about actually producing it trying to sell it for an MSRP of $100.
Fixed that for you.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 09, 2012, 07:30:32 AM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 09, 2012, 01:33:33 AM
I think I read somewhere that Ogre was delayed. Again. He's been talking about this game for years now, so you have to wonder if maybe he's getting cold feet about actually producing it.
I think it's a race between the Ogre reprint, and the Up Front reprint, for the Duke Nukem vaporware award of games-that-are-never-coming-out.
How many times has Up Front been promised now? How long has that been going on? 5 years? Longer?
Quote from: MartokSurely World in Flames has got to be on that list as well.
Nah, the WiF board game actually exists. :D
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 09, 2012, 10:50:37 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 09, 2012, 07:30:32 AM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 09, 2012, 01:33:33 AM
I think I read somewhere that Ogre was delayed. Again. He's been talking about this game for years now, so you have to wonder if maybe he's getting cold feet about actually producing it.
I think it's a race between the Ogre reprint, and the Up Front reprint, for the Duke Nukem vaporware award of games-that-are-never-coming-out.
How many times has Up Front been promised now? How long has that been going on? 5 years? Longer?
11 that I know of. Might be more before that.
Well, it's totally old school, but Tactics II. Not too complicated, simple rules. At the time, a gamer could sell it to his friends as a tie in with The Longest Day movie.
That actually did a lot to get some on hte fence folks to give wargaming a try.
I have had good success with Lock N Load's World at War series. Simple and intuitive rules. I taught my 15-year-old nephew to play. The hook was something along the lines of: "Let's play a game about what I did when I was in the army."
Quote from: wierbear on February 16, 2012, 12:17:05 PMThe hook was something along the lines of: "Let's play a game about what I did when I was in the army."
I think that's a perfect hook to use. Anyone else had success with it?
I would go with something from game workshop, why, well yes the cost but they are fairly easy to play but more importantly they are better to engage the imagination due to the massive wealth of background in books and computer games. Also, although i have not played it dust is ment to be a very good "light" wargame, sci-fi ww2ish tank walkers, zombies etc whats not to like.
Found another good choice for a beginner board gamer :
1812 : Invasion of Canada by Academy Games (the Conflict of Heroes guys). Can be played by FIVE people (British Regulars, Canadian Militia and Natives on one side, American Regulars & Militia on the other). Each faction gets a deck of 12 cards, 8 for movement and 4 special cards. Once you use one, it's done. You can move the forces of allies with yours as armies when you advance/attack.
Each faction also gets it's own set of combat dice, with differing numbers of faces of the 3 types (flee, hit and tactical retreat option). 5 faction cubes go in to a cloth bag at the start of each turn, and the order drawn determines the order in which factions get to act. Simple reinforcement rules.
At most, the game lasts 8 turns. But one of the most powerful movement cards for each faction is also a Truce card. If, at any point from Turn 3 on, every member of one of the two sides has played their Truce card, the war ends right then and there. Try to take more cities belonging to your opponent than they take of yours before the game ends.
I've also got another Academy game for up to 4 that is supposed to be simple, though a little deeper than this, called Strike of the Eagle. Haven't gotten to play it yet, but I'll mention it if it fits the bill for a nice intro wargame as well.
My first real strategy game was Sierra's Civil War General 1 & 2, which then graduated into the Panzer General Series, then to Close Combat, then to to Steel Panthers, Panzer General Forever, then to my current stock. I bounced around a bit.
Actually a good Wargame-Lite which is great for kids is Advance Wars, I'm sure it'll get the itch started into wargaming, albeit a digital one.
Quote from: southern_cross_116 on February 07, 2012, 05:56:14 PM
I'm wondeering if maybe that Airborne game by Avalanche Press might work ( I haven't had the time to get into the Panzer Grenadier system -but have read their one page rule blurb that they used to (might still for all I know) include with their games.
This is a very poor choice of starter game. There is only one map and the hedgerow rules are convoluted at best. If the scale of PG is appealing starting with a desert game would be better: terrain is easier to grasp, AFVs can move very freely, LOS is simple. The system excels in the desert.
The one page rules blurb is marketing horseshit, btw. ::) You'll need far more than that to grasp the game's mechanics.
Quote from: southern_cross_116 on February 07, 2012, 05:56:14 PM
I'm wondeering if maybe that Airborne game by Avalanche Press might work ( I haven't had the time to get into the Panzer Grenadier system -but have read their one page rule blurb that they used to (might still for all I know) include with their games.
Although, I started, back in the day with AH's War at Sea and Tactics II.
When I was a kid, I started other kids out on Panzerblitz. Panzer Grenadier might work fine.
However, now that I'm old, I may try starting people out on Agincourt: small map, easy system, big counters and I can say, "Let's play a game about what I did in the 100-years war." And Then I can recite Henry V.s band-of-brothers we happy few...and you know there really aren't many of us 100-year-war veteran's left. And why worry? I'll be the French.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 08, 2012, 11:35:49 AM
I concur with the Command and Colors suggestion. I believe there is even an iOS version of the Ancients one that would be a cheaper and quicker learning tool.
LB, I think the reprint of Ogre is a limited run, so they probably don't care about or want reviews. I may just take the plunge, depending on the price.
+1 on Command and Colors Ancients. Strangely, the game is rated as medium complexity by GMT, but I think it is easier to learn than that.
I hear so much about CC:A that I've thought of getting a copy to see what the hype is all about but then I ask myself "if I think Memoir '44 is a cute little intro wargame that only sees the table when introducing someone to the hobby, am I going to really like CC:A?". So I ask you CC:A players the same question- would I?
Quote from: GJK on November 06, 2012, 12:54:57 PM
I hear so much about CC:A that I've thought of getting a copy to see what the hype is all about but then I ask myself "if I think Memoir '44 is a cute little intro wargame that only sees the table when introducing someone to the hobby, am I going to really like CC:A?". So I ask you CC:A players the same question- would I?
CC:A and M'44 are the same game with different dressing...same goes for Battlelore. I enjoyed playing all three equally. Based on my experience I'd suggest that you're likely to find the same with CC:A vs. M'44.
I haven't tried any of the expansions. Also, CC Napoleonics appears to have more meat on its bones.
In my opinion, a good introductory hex and counter game on operational level is "Battle of the Bulge" (1991, Smithsonian Institute Series). All traditional core mechanics are in the game (movement, combat, supply, stacking) and you can start with basic rules, adding more advanced rules later. In addition, the game includes historical background information about the Battle of the Bulge, which is a nice touch for a beginner.
Another wargame which is easy to learn and hard to master is "A House Divided", introducing the point-to-point movement system / strategic level.
For a block game, I would recommend "Julius Caesar" by Columbia Games.
Last but not least, good introductory card-based wargames are "Naval Battles" and "Hell of Stalingrad" (the last game is quite easy when explained by an experienced gamer, but probably somewhat overwhelming without assistance).