I saw on the Dogs of War forum that POA2 and TU are getting a big update. I was a little concerned because people were talking about it as if its a new game. Is there any general information available on what the future plans are for both games.
While on release, I thought POA2 was a great idea and was reasonably executed, subsequent updates really screwed the pooch. This game has been around since 2002 or so I think. I was one of the first buyers and hung with it for quite a few years. But it was broken and somewhat abandoned. I really hope HPS is being fully transparent on the plans. As of today, I consider it a waste of money and a black eye on the business ethics of HPS.
I just don't want anyone to go into buying this without some full disclosure.
I saw that game and it looked interesting, it just seemed super complicated and nobody ciuld really get into it
Wasn't familiar with either game so I watched a few 'let's play' videos on youtube and neither was appealing.
It's not so much that it's super-complicated, though it is more complicated than your standard RTS. It's that it's just not a good game/sim. It had its start as a military training sim project IIRC, and probably was what the military wanted, but I don't think it made a good transition to being a game.
I still have my copy of POA2 around here, but haven't bothered to load it up in years. It just isn't playable. I keep hoping that one day they'll fix it, but I'm not holding my breath. They occasionally come out and say they've made great strides and are working on it constantly, but it seems to me that they've had enough time to produce three games of this scale at this point.
Based on my experience with POA2. It's so detailed that turn times takes quite some time to resolve.
It's neat in concept and probably more suited as a professional simulation tool.
I've got a copy, but I'm embarrassed to say I never got around to installing, let alone playing it... :-[
So out of curiosity, I reinstalled POA2 to my laptop. I have kept a fully installed version on my external HD because it takes up little room. I made sure I had the latest update, which I think was still listed as a beta update at 2.5.7. They screwed around with the install where you needed a common fileset called TSS first. Then the 2.5 update. Of course you need to have POA2 at 2.3.XX before you could even do that. I also had forgotten that you needed ADC2 to build maps. I think I invested about $130 in 2003. That was a lot for a game then. I can't believe this has been going on for over 13 years.
My recollection is that at 2.3.XX, it was somewhat stable in 2010, even if still somewhat flawed. Then a couple years later, they released 2.5 (which was what Tigers Unleashed was developed on). That release completely screwed everything up. The name should have changed to "C++ Error" because that was what was up on the screen most of the time.
So my trip down memory lane validated what I remembered. What I find interesting is that every couple years HPS manages to sucker someone new to lead the charge on the betas. It follows the same pattern...find someone to take the banner, send them a bunch of betas, the new guy runs around to wargaming forums trumpeting how its all changed, then poof...it all goes away and starts again a few years later. This is my third time watching this play out. Last time was on the gamesquad forums.
btw, the latest version has now been in beta for two years. I will give HPS one thing, they are persistent and predictable. It is also inexcusable.
Here is the link to the gamesquad discussions...
http://forums.gamesquad.com/forumdisplay.php?52-Point-of-Attack-2/page32&pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1
The game has improved. The way the dev communicates has not.
I have been using regular updates.
The patch that will be released to the public will be out in a few days.
Oh and I wasn't suckered. I actually think TU has promise :)
I suggest you take a trip down memory lane in that gamesquad thread. You'll see the pattern.
Quote from: RyanE on August 16, 2016, 05:56:32 AM
I suggest you take a trip down memory lane in that gamesquad thread. You'll see the pattern.
I guess the reason I started this thread is to make sure someone is not completely ignoring the past on this tortured 13-year journey of POA2 and its engine. Go take a look at the 2-3 year cycle of some outside person contacting Scott, getting involved in the beta testing (if thats what you can call it), going around to different forums to praise all the work HPS has done. I don't want a single person to spend $60 on something that person and HPS know has a high chance of not really being fixed.
Just look at how its going now. You have been to a couple forums talking about how great the update is (check), the update is suddenly delayed (check), some people are getting suckered in (check). All that is left in the pattern is either the update disappears or it still has issues. Then Scott goes through a panicked series of updates that breaks more than it fixes.
And Scott doesn't come to the forums because he knows he screwed a number of people over. He likes finding surrogates who will take the heat.
I want to point out I was a huge fan of POA2 for maybe the first 10 years. It has great models for FOW, SOPs, and other nice tactical details. I used to talk about it in the CM forums a lot as an example of modeling SOPs and friendly AI.
But after the TU and 2.5 fiasco, I gave up. Even before that, it was still having issues. But the issues were at least livable if you knew about them. It took years to finally eliminate all the C++ and math errors. 2.5 came along and was supposed to be a big clean up of the remaining issue, but instead it was almost a 10-year set back. We kept getting promises of each build finally fixing the problems...and each build seemed to cause more problems than it fixed.
So pardon me for my skepticism and hostile attitude towards someone trying to revisit this with the EXACT same message.
Hi RyanE
I have looked at your link to Gamesquad and fail to see any surrogate behaviour by myself. I have only posted about the games on DOW forum and a couple of light responses on Gamesquad. I have not given the H.P.S titles any special treatment. I only post to keep people informed. That is all.
I purchased the games when they were released. POA-2 is more a tool. TU is better for gaming. The titles are NOT for everyone.
I think the way the dev does not interact in the open is ridiculous. I have messaged many times telling him so. I feel there is no excuse for the company not to have a presence in public.
In future I will refrain from posting about POA-2 and TU here, so as not to upset you. :)
Regards
The suggestion is to tell people not to buy it. I don't care what the dev is telling you. His track record on this game is atrocious. I want anyone touting the great changes in this game to have a very large disclaimer that this is the at least the fourth time customers have been through this cycle.
As to the term surrogate...
M-W definition - a person or thing that takes the place or performs the duties of someone or something else
That is what you are doing, regardless of what forum or who owns it. Getting uninformed people fired up over the game is basically being a surrogate for Scott because he doesn't want the flak. He lets you take it.
Ryan
You give people to little credit. Just because I post about an update, it does not mean they will rush out and purchase it ::)
I am nobodies surrogate. I am familiar with the definition of the word. :)
A forum is for the discussion of ideas and making posts. You obviously feel negative about the dev so take it up with him. I am not trying to sell anything. Again, I am just reporting on updates that I see. If you cannot differentiate between a direct solicitation to purchase and some information for interests sake then that is your problem.
Regards
This first post especially seems like you are trying to sell it. It looks like an advert from the developer...
http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,1273.0.html
Quote from: RyanE on August 16, 2016, 11:34:05 AM
This first post especially seems like you are trying to sell it. It looks like an advert from the developer...
http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,1273.0.html
Really Ryan? Really?
If you take the time to look at the majority of my introductory posts. They are the same. I like to be informative and give as much info as possible.
You obviously have an issue here. I have nothing to prove or justify. So i will leave you to your little conspiracy theory ::)
Regards
I would have no issue if when you put up a company's marketing/ad material you actually stated the issues that other customers had and that were pretty universal. Just putting up an ad and then a year-long drawn out strings of "its coming any day now."
Try to be a little objective here. Look at your posts. Nowhere does it state the issues people have had with a 13 year old engine. Why did you suddenly start that thread? There was no real news to be had in it. No patch, no new content, etc. So over a year after we had gotten the last bit of news, you suddenly created a thread that is basically an ad for a game that universally was considered broken.
Maybe you got a beta from your relationship with HPS. Maybe you got excited about it. So you put up what is basically an ad for the game. Its all well in good to get excited like that from something no one else can see. But expect someone to push back and say, "Hey, wait a minute". If only one person spends $60 on that engine at this point, its your fault.
This is funny...I'm not alone in my conspiracy theory...read the last few posts.
http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?117884-One-year-(and-9-days)-anniversary-of-no-patch/page4
Sigh.... ::)
I have had the game for a long time. I wanted to play them again. I looked for updates. There were none. I emailed the dev and he gave me a patch. Anyone can get the patch. Try it. Email the dev. Is this the way things should be? NO.
As for my posts. I have again. Look at my posts. I like to be complete. An intro + links. I am not trying to sell anything. It is the way I post.
You have an axe to grind. Go grind it with the dev. I only made the posts because I wanted to tell folks that patches were coming. I have my own free will and mind.
In your link. Look at the link i posted "click here". It is info i have and am sharing. I think you need to realise that there is no ulterior/sinister motive.
Keep on arguing and trying to prove a point which does not exist. I will not be your sparring partner.
You're missing my point. Again, I have no issue with handing out information on a game. Its great you have gotten to the dev. But be honest with people reading your posts. There is very little positive mojo for the POA engine in the wargamer market. When you only post the positive marketing stuff from the dev and then go on a slow crawl of announcing the devs are ready for an update, it makes you look like a schill for the dev.
There is no way you don't know all the bad stuff that has happened with this game and engine. Please tell me you know. You obviously saw the posts on gamesquad. Yet you only post a rosy picture on your thread. How can you do that? You realize there is no demo. How is someone new to the market supposed to know that what you are putting out there is a promise right now and only a thin veneer over what is underneath? This isn't some unknown new game. It has a very long and sordid history that is only documented on some obscure old forums. Did you read what Navman76 said in one of the gamesquad threads? How he said he was just like you in 2014. In fact, when I went back and looked at that thread, I thought maybe you had used the Navman76 name as your handle on gamesquad. But then I noticed the date was 2014. You realize you and he are virtual HPS twins right. Do you see how much of a fool Scott made him look like? In 2018, will there be another Asid/Namman76 in 2018?
So back to reality...from the time you said there was going to be a public beta, how long has it been?
So I did the work for you...
Even if I discount you stating the update would be available soon in Dec. 2015, in April 2016 you said two weeks. I see no update. You are being played and people following you are being played through you. Whether you are employed by HPS or not, you have taken on Navman76's mantle of surrogate.
btw, this isn't about scoring some stupis sparring contest on a wargamer forum. This is about being fair to other wargamers. One thing that drives me crazy is posts that paint a rosy picture of a game when the poster knows there are significant issues. I have been sucked into many purchase by threads where either the poster was uninformed, careless, or had a hidden agenda. (I know, I know, that's 99% of the forum posts on the internet)
I also noticed that for the first time in your thread, you acknowledged the history and previous issues with the game. Almost exactly 12 hours after the first exchanges on this thread started.
http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,1273.msg11690.html#msg11690
Note that post at 7PM on August 14. This thread started at 7AM eastern time. Huh...I wonder what motivated you to do that?
My mission is partially complete.
I see the patch has finally been released. Its still a beta test. Amusingly, the caveat on the patch is if crashes and lockups bother you, don't play it. I don't remember the original saying that and it should have.
Only what...five months late. And that was late from a game release over three years ago on an engine that was released 14 years ago. Sheesh. Talk about reliving history over and over again.
RyanE...please tone it down. You're throwing around a lot of accusations. There is no reason for any hostility here.
Thanks.
OK, its been six months since some kind of "imminent" beta release was discussed for Tigers Unleashed. Did that ever come out? I saw nothing useful on the HPS site. Has any of the optimism faded?
Quote from: RyanE on March 17, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
OK, its been six months since some kind of "imminent" beta release was discussed for Tigers Unleashed. Did that ever come out? I saw nothing useful on the HPS site. Has any of the optimism faded?
I gave up on this game years ago. A bit like going to a restaurant and having a shit meal. I got over it. I dont get why you are so angry.It likely cost less than the experience I mentioned and yet I dont go firebomb the place - just dont go there again.
I got $120 invested in the games. Spent years working with the dev to get some semblance of playability. Had moved on until I started seeing people trying to hype it up again because of some supposed beta update. Went through this several times already. I am just trying to figure out where its going and make sure potential customers finally see the street of broken promises this game is built on.
If this was some kind of new company's kickstarter for $30, there would be unmitigated outrage on this board. Instead, I see HPS being given a significant pass for failing to deliver a working product, in fact two working products. Just in the last year there have been a series of promise after promise on TU that haven't been delivered. That's not even counting POA2. This story is counted in decades, not just years. The focus has been on a couple people yelling at each other and instead it should be on a game company imploding.
Its not anger as much as frustration that I thought this game was dead and everyone knew the story on it. And then suddenly someone pops up singing the game's praises and promising to deliver a new beta update that fixes everything. If one of this boards main functions is not for customers to inform customers whats going on with wargames then I am on the wrong board. Part of that is closure. When a debate on a game happens and it is something that will take time to see what happens, we should revisit it periodically.
JUst saw this when doing a search...
http://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/2016/12/tigers-unleashed-its-been-long-hard.html
So it looks like the enjoyment this game brings is beta testing. And even this was four months ago.
Quote from: RyanE on March 18, 2017, 08:28:37 AM
I got $120 invested in the games. Spent years working with the dev to get some semblance of playability. Had moved on until I started seeing people trying to hype it up again because of some supposed beta update. Went through this several times already. I am just trying to figure out where its going and make sure potential customers finally see the street of broken promises this game is built on.
If this was some kind of new company's kickstarter for $30, there would be unmitigated outrage on this board. Instead, I see HPS being given a significant pass for failing to deliver a working product, in fact two working products. Just in the last year there have been a series of promise after promise on TU that haven't been delivered. That's not even counting POA2. This story is counted in decades, not just years. The focus has been on a couple people yelling at each other and instead it should be on a game company imploding.
Its not anger as much as frustration that I thought this game was dead and everyone knew the story on it. And then suddenly someone pops up singing the game's praises and promising to deliver a new beta update that fixes everything. If one of this boards main functions is not for customers to inform customers whats going on with wargames then I am on the wrong board. Part of that is closure. When a debate on a game happens and it is something that will take time to see what happens, we should revisit it periodically.
Well I think its exactly the same thing at matrix and that POS they released called world in flames. They are still selling the thing and it patently doesnt work and never has. I tend to take the view that if microsoft sold me software that didnt work I would be spitting feathers - but we are dealing with small wargames living at the edge of any notion of profitability and things just aint worked out as intended. Some do some dont - but its no use pretending something like YU is a candidate for some kind of class action suit. Some guy tried to do something. I paid some money to help him. It didnt work out. C'est la vie.