I've suggested it earlier, but I've again been reminded of how much I loathe this system over against simple, straightforward, on-line play.
Consider these games:
Fields of Glory
Pike and Shot Campaigns
Heroes of Normandie
Each of these three games is among the best in its genre. Strike that, in the case of the first and second, they're really the only ones in their genre absent a few fine niche games. They're both elegant designs and well worthy of support. Best of all, they're conceptually brilliant multi-player because their low unit-densities and fast play lend themselves to manageable game sessions. Not here the monsters like PzC and other Tiller games (absent SB) that can take two hours to log a turn. Not here also fine games like Decisive Campaigns and Blood Bowl that require similar commitments. No, here, foes could sit on chat, have a drink or seven, and enjoy an entire game that can be resolved in less than an hour.
Into this, Matrix/Slitherine has chosen to insert the kludgy, awful PBEM++ system. It is ludus interruptus at its very worst. I know why it exists -- spare me this nonsense about most wanting async play, there's a new thing to manage turns of this relatively small size, it's called e-mail. Dr. Tiller sussed it out during the first Clinton administration. Explain to me why, though, this is necessary for games played on Steam? People play Civ5 on Steam for heaven's sake. People play Hoi4, March of Eagles, and CKII. Surely Sid Meier and that rogue band of Scandahoovians at Paradox want their money too?
You, PBEM++, sully wonderful games and I would be rid of you.
Selah,
Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
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The appeal of Pbem games (I don't know what "Pbem++" is) is the obvious ability to log my turn on my timeline without having to "chat" about it on a mic and even if I can't get through the entire turn in one sitting, I can come back until it's wrapped up (I'm talking VASSAL here). I also like that I can concentrate on the turn and take my time with the moves without feeling the "rush" to get through my half while my playing opponent is sitting there waiting. I also like the feeling of anticipation in getting that next turn to see how it plays out. I remember enjoying immensely the CMx1 engine with the pbem turns; wondering if your T-34 was going to make that facing change in time to protect itself against that STuG that just made an appearance.
You mention Blood Bowl- I've found that to be one of the best games to pbem with because of (mostly) lack of interaction during a turn and because turns are very short and quick. I can knock out several turns a day with an opponent if we're both able. Again, this is with VASSAL- I don't know about BB2 or any of the other electronic flavors of the game.
And if I completely missed the mark on the intent of your post, my apologies.
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You damn straight, Vance. You damn straight.
I love PBEM gaming where it works, i.e., for long games that don't play well over a LAN or directly over the Internet. Any larger wargame fits into this category.
PBEM++ is Matrix/Slitherine's custom PBEM management system that it uses in place of direct connection. It's also a DRM method. And, as I argue above, it is used in games that are ideal for direct play. In fact, the turns are so delightfully short in these games that the PBEM++ becomes ever the more odious.
It is my eternal foe.
We've done both kinds of games. PBEM++ has seen literally 10-100x more players playing MP, it's really that simple. We try and do both (with live in games like HoN) where appropriate, but I think that perhaps your definition of short turns doesn't entirely match most people - P&S for example.
That said, we are trying to include live play (or something like it) in more games. So we're listening!
Cheers
Pip
I'd much rather use the PBEM++ system over manually unpacking, running, re-packing, and sending files via email, in the regular PBEM style. I mean... PBEM++ cuts out all the extra BS and sends the files automatically, inside the program.
But I completely understand your point about also having a direct head-to-head multiplayer game running in real-time. At least, for games with fairly short turns, as mentioned.
Either way, I downright loathe dicking with antique PBEM stuff. It's no wonder so many people often lost interest halfway through; juggling files back & forth via Email Tag reminded too much of work & not play.
@Nefaro: Courses for horses, of course, but I've never had that sort of a problem with straight PBEM. Or at least not much of one. It only made me yearn for proper head to head play which returns me to my theme. Then again, finding the H2HH for CMx2 was a real revelation.
@Pip: You are very kind -- I mean this sincerely (cursed inhuman internet) -- to indulge my rant. After all, I'm clearly a fan and this is a detail, but damned if it doesn't drive me insane. That, however, said:
1. You can't know how many or how few people would participate in proper MP over PBEM++ for those three titles as you've never offered the former for any of them. The Scourge of War community is a pretty healthy one on-line and those games run no small length of time.
2. I will here register my doubts that any future turn-based, top-tier title from the Matrix/Slitherine annex will eschew PBEM++ for better methods of MP play.
Again, and again sincerely, my very best.
Jim
Quote from: Nefaro on August 23, 2016, 07:23:21 PM
I'd much rather use the PBEM++ system over manually unpacking, running, re-packing, and sending files via email, in the regular PBEM style. I mean... PBEM++ cuts out all the extra BS and sends the files automatically, inside the program.
But I completely understand your point about also having a direct head-to-head multiplayer game running in real-time. At least, for games with fairly short turns, as mentioned.
Either way, I downright loathe dicking with antique PBEM stuff. It's no wonder so many people often lost interest halfway through; juggling files back & forth via Email Tag reminded too much of work & not play.
I use dropbox for this now. With VASSAL and I guess any other game that let's you choose where to save the pbem files, you just save it to your shared out dropbox folder and the other guy gets the notification that a new file has been added. Nothing to unpack and you don't have to move the file around (at least not in VASSAL)- just double click it from your dropbox folder and the right VASSAL module launches and the turn loads. That sounds a lot like what that Pbem++ does in a way.
Quote from: Cyrano on August 23, 2016, 07:46:13 PM
@Nefaro: Courses for horses, of course, but I've never had that sort of a problem with straight PBEM. Or at least not much of one. It only made me yearn for proper head to head play which returns me to my theme. Then again, finding the H2HH for CMx2 was a real revelation.
@Pip: You are very kind -- I mean this sincerely (cursed inhuman internet) -- to indulge my rant. After all, I'm clearly a fan and this is a detail, but damned if it doesn't drive me insane. That, however, said:
1. You can't know how many or how few people would participate in proper MP over PBEM++ for those three titles as you've never offered the former for any of them. The Scourge of War community is a pretty healthy one on-line and those games run no small length of time.
2. I will here register my doubts that any future turn-based, top-tier title from the Matrix/Slitherine annex will eschew PBEM++ for better methods of MP play.
Again, and again sincerely, my very best.
Jim
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^ :2funny:
Race you for the staring window.
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You all need to get off my damn lawn! :tickedoff:
Quote from: GJK on August 23, 2016, 09:21:23 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on August 23, 2016, 07:23:21 PM
I'd much rather use the PBEM++ system over manually unpacking, running, re-packing, and sending files via email, in the regular PBEM style. I mean... PBEM++ cuts out all the extra BS and sends the files automatically, inside the program.
But I completely understand your point about also having a direct head-to-head multiplayer game running in real-time. At least, for games with fairly short turns, as mentioned.
Either way, I downright loathe dicking with antique PBEM stuff. It's no wonder so many people often lost interest halfway through; juggling files back & forth via Email Tag reminded too much of work & not play.
I use dropbox for this now. With VASSAL and I guess any other game that let's you choose where to save the pbem files, you just save it to your shared out dropbox folder and the other guy gets the notification that a new file has been added. Nothing to unpack and you don't have to move the file around (at least not in VASSAL)- just double click it from your dropbox folder and the right VASSAL module launches and the turn loads. That sounds a lot like what that Pbem++ does in a way.
Yeah, that makes PBEM easier after you get set up.
But PBEM++ just does all the file transfers and loading right within the game itself.
You can even put up new games from within, without having to fish around for opponents. Just put up some games and someone will take the challenge. Or offer ones with passwords, if you already found an opponent outside the in-game PBEM stuff. It does all the shuffling and searching for you, as much as you like.
Just fire it up, click multi-player to log in, and your currently running games waiting on your turn are listed as ready. Then click, play, and finish. BOOM goes the PBEM turn. I've even had opponents send back turns while I was doing them on a second or third match-up, and head back to do multiple turns while we're both on.
I thought it an excellent evolution of PBEM gaming. Does all the work & lets you get to playing more quickly. O0
EDIT: Would I like direct head-to-head "live" play on some of the turn-based games? Sure. But if it's gonna have PBEM, I'd
much rather it have PBEM++. Saves time & effort to get to the gooey center. :)
Quote from: Cyrano on August 23, 2016, 07:46:13 PM
@Nefaro: Courses for horses, of course, but I've never had that sort of a problem with straight PBEM. Or at least not much of one. It only made me yearn for proper head to head play which returns me to my theme. Then again, finding the H2HH for CMx2 was a real revelation.
@Pip: You are very kind -- I mean this sincerely (cursed inhuman internet) -- to indulge my rant. After all, I'm clearly a fan and this is a detail, but damned if it doesn't drive me insane. That, however, said:
1. You can't know how many or how few people would participate in proper MP over PBEM++ for those three titles as you've never offered the former for any of them. The Scourge of War community is a pretty healthy one on-line and those games run no small length of time.
2. I will here register my doubts that any future turn-based, top-tier title from the Matrix/Slitherine annex will eschew PBEM++ for better methods of MP play.
Again, and again sincerely, my very best.
Jim
You are correct we would never drop the PBEM++ system - irrespective of how many theoretical H2H players there may be out there, the community has definitely spoken on PBEM++ and they love it. A lot. But as I say we are always experimenting with systems to make more people happy. So you may be surprised...
Cheers
Pip
Well, I certainly do love surprises!
Hotseat. Just have hotseat in every game, that's all I ask.
Quote from: Cyrano on August 25, 2016, 01:21:46 PM
Well, I certainly do love surprises!
You do not love surprises. There has no been one time that I've surprised you in a game that you liked it.
;)