I've been hankering for a good bout of space empire building... but have spent the past few nights bouncing off one space 4x title after another... none managing to keep my attention for more than a couple of hours.
I really want a game that emphasizes ship design and fleet tactics / composition / management. I've still not found a game that surpasses Sword of the Stars II in this respect. (For me, one of the bigger disappointments with Stellaris has been the lame ship combat). I really hate games that present ship combat as 'swarms of flies' that get into an utterly confusing close-quarters melee...and then the whole thing's over in 30 seconds and you've lost three-quarters of your fleet.
In terms of overall enjoyment, I'd probably rank the Space 4x games in my library accordingly:
1. Distant Worlds
2. Sword of the Stars II
3. Endless Space
4. Polaris Sector
5. Stellaris
6. Galactic Civs II/III
'Unknown quantities' that I haven't devoted much time to: MOO3, Armada 2526
Games I've uninstalled and really don't intend to return to: StarDrive 1/2, Star Ruler 1/2, Space Empires IV
I regard Sins of a Solar Empire as one of the best space games ever created, but I don't think of it as a 4x game. Plus it lacks ship design, sadly.
Ordinarily I'd just play Distant Worlds or SOTSII, but for whatever reason they're just not calling me. So I've been bouncing around between Endless Space, Stellaris, Polaris Sector, and Gal Civ III. All have strengths... and yet I find myself bored after a few hours. I'm slightly tempted to pick up the new Master of Orion, but at the same time, it really just looks like 'more of the same', standard, predictable 4x fare.
Probably the space 4x of my dreams doesn't exist. I won't get on my hobby horse about all the 4x conventions that *really* need to be retired or radically revised at this point -- there are a lot of them. But here's one that's really getting under my skin at the moment: the tedium of building up fleets. Apparently it's written in stone somewhere that space 4x must observe the following start conditions: you get 1 scout, 1 colonizer, and possibly 1 small combat vessel. Now spend the next several hours colonizing and hoarding resources and balancing your civilian vs. military budget so that you can eventually have smallish fleets of frigates and destroyers. (Gal Civ is especially bad in this regard).
How is it that a civilization capable of interstellar travel has no capacity to build a capital warship and can only sustain a fleet of a tiny handful of small vessels? I get the logic of this from a gameplay standpoint ("you can't start out too powerful! what fun would that be?") but I disagree with the premise. It *would* be fun to start out with bigger ships and fleets. The only game I can think of that allows this is Star Ruler 2... and yet there's too much else I dislike about that game to want to play it.
Anyway, I guess this is me venting more than anything else. But I welcome any thoughts on this subject. What space 4x 'ticks off the important boxes' for you? Which are your 'go to' space 4x?
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 31, 2016, 02:40:19 PM
I really want a game that emphasizes ship design and fleet tactics / composition / management. I've still not found a game that surpasses Sword of the Stars II in this respect. (For me, one of the bigger disappointments with Stellaris has been the lame ship combat). I really hate games that present ship combat as 'swarms of flies' that get into an utterly confusing close-quarters melee...and then the whole thing's over in 30 seconds and you've lost three-quarters of your fleet.
Easy...Polaris Sector.
NO GAME does ship design and fleet tactics/composition better. Every technology you unlock has purpose, and its not just laser, stronger laser, strongest laser. i was really impressed by the thought, creativity and utility of the ship module and tech list in this game. Furthermore, no other game I have ever played, and as you know, I've played pretty much all of them, permits you to address any tactical or strategic situation through ship design. Its really the only game where I would be presented with a challenge that I could try to address through ship design, be it a need for more range, more payload, bigger guns, stealth, recon, etc. Usually, in other games in the genre, the player is faced with a challenge and you can only say, "wouldn't it be cool if..." In Polaris Sector, the options are truly limited only by your own imagination and strategic acumen.
These concepts, fleet composition, management and tactics are equally important in combat portion of the game. Its one of the few games where fighter and bomber ships can really be used to devastating effect, playing the decisive role. I was shocked by the importance of using strategy with respect to these craft. Knowing when to employ them, and knowing when to hold them back, is critical...very similar to WWII carrier combat. For instance, if you send your fighters and bombers off to locate the enemy fleet, you may be caught defenseless, if the enemy fleet finds your ships first. I've experienced some real nail biters in this game. For capital ships, speed, range, firepower, etc. are also very important, as is having dedicated ship classes to perform specific tasks, such as anti-fighter and bomber defense, recon, attack, etc.
Polis Sector gets so much right, where so many other games have gotten so much wrong. The developer really thought outside of the box...
A patched MOO3 is worth a look too. Fleet composition is so import that the game actually imposes rules based upon unit size, role and purpose. For instance, a Long Range flotilla may only require a few mission critical ships, while a Long Range squadron or fleet will require larger numbers of ships overall, a set number of mission critical ships, pickets and escorts, etc. Meanwhile, a group with a different mission designation will require a whole different set of rules.
Ship design is also very well done in patched MOO3, permitting the player to also come up with very useful designs throughout.
If the games you mentioned are not holding your interest, I'd shy away from MOOIV for now. Its a good game, but its not what you are looking for.
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 31, 2016, 02:40:19 PM
How is it that a civilization capable of interstellar travel has no capacity to build a capital warship and can only sustain a fleet of a tiny handful of small vessels? I get the logic of this from a gameplay standpoint ("you can't start out too powerful! what fun would that be?") but I disagree with the premise. It *would* be fun to start out with bigger ships and fleets. The only game I can think of that allows this is Star Ruler 2... and yet there's too much else I dislike about that game to want to play it.
Check out Pocket Space Empires...there are a few different start conditions, but most of them have the player starting of as a well developed intergalactic powerhouse.
Appreciate the strong endorsement, JH -- thanks. I've never really gotten far enough into Polaris Sector to see the true effects of ship design and fleet tactics that you mention (...which is to say I've only scratched the surface of the game... yet against all expectation, I find it more compelling than Stellaris for reasons that are hard to put my finger on...)
JH, do you have a go-to space 4x, or one that you think overall provides the most well-rounded / satisfying experience?
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 31, 2016, 03:05:02 PM
Appreciate the strong endorsement, JH -- thanks. I've never really gotten far enough into Polaris Sector to see the true effects of ship design and fleet tactics that you mention (...which is to say I've only scratched the surface of the game... yet against all expectation, I find it more compelling than Stellaris for reasons that are hard to put my finger on...)
JH, do you have a go-to space 4x, or one that you think overall provides the most well-rounded / satisfying experience?
I know what you mean about PS...it did not grab me right away. It took quite a bit of time, and a few restarts to really dig its hooks in. Heck, it took a few hundred years before I was even able to build anything larger than a corvette. But once you've been playing for awhile and you have developed a reasonably strong infrastructure, and unlocked some useful technologies, the options and the enjoyment really takes off. Do yourself a favor and stick with it!
If I had to pick a go-to space 4x game, it would most likely still be a patched MOO3. It really scratches all of my 4x itches and dreams. The ship design is great, the fleet options are impressive, the planetary invasion and planet based combat options are unrivaled to this day. No other space 4x permits the player to build ground units in varying sizes with varying composition, name them and then pick tactics in combat. The empire management, espionage, leader options are also impressive. It is not without its short comings (ie. diplomacy), but overall, its still what I always go back to. I get a real chuckle anytime I see someone attacking the game, or writing it off as a failure. Boy, they have no idea what they are talking about.
I will say that Polaris Sector surprisingly comes in a pretty damn close second.
The only space(ship) funk you need, baby. Accept no substitutes.
Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora. I've messed with it from time to time and it's free. Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.
Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time. The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 31, 2016, 03:12:12 PM
I know what you mean about PS...it did not grab me right away. It took quite a bit of time, and a few restarts to really dig its hooks in. Heck, it took a few hundred years before I was even able to build anything larger than a corvette. But once you've been playing for awhile and you have developed a reasonably strong infrastructure, and unlocked some useful technologies, the options and the enjoyment really takes off. Do yourself a favor and stick with it!
If I had to pick a go-to space 4x game, it would most likely still be a patched MOO3. It really scratches all of my 4x itches and dreams. The ship design is great, the fleet options are impressive, the planetary invasion and planet based combat options are unrivaled to this day. No other space 4x permits the player to build ground units in varying sizes with varying composition, name them and then pick tactics in combat. The empire management, espionage, leader options are also impressive. It is not without its short comings (ie. diplomacy), but overall, its still what I always go back to.
I will say that Polaris Sector surprisingly comes in a pretty damn close second.
You've inspired me to fire up Polaris Sector later tonight and give it a more serious go than I have to date.
One of these days I'm going to get around to learning MOO3. I do have it installed and patched, and know that you've done some Let's Play vids on YouTube. I'm slightly put off by the dated / low res graphics, but not so much that I refuse to play it (like Space Empires IV, for example!)
Quote from: OJsDad on August 31, 2016, 03:20:22 PM
Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora. I've messed with it from time to time and it's free. Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.
Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time. The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/
I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 31, 2016, 03:25:56 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on August 31, 2016, 03:20:22 PM
Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora. I've messed with it from time to time and it's free. Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.
Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time. The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/
I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.
Little steps and restarts is the best way to start.
Quote from: OJsDad on August 31, 2016, 03:27:03 PM
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 31, 2016, 03:25:56 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on August 31, 2016, 03:20:22 PM
Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora. I've messed with it from time to time and it's free. Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.
Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time. The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/
I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.
Little steps and restarts is the best way to start.
There are also some great threads with useful step-by-step tutorials in the official forums. Some of them may be outdated by now though...
Quote from: OJsDad on August 31, 2016, 03:27:03 PM
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 31, 2016, 03:25:56 PM
Quote from: OJsDad on August 31, 2016, 03:20:22 PM
Sandman, have you ever looked at Aurora. I've messed with it from time to time and it's free. Starfury, I think, is the one to really ask about.
Aurora is built on Access/VB and was just kink of put together over time. The designer is rebuilding in C# and has a section on his forum talking about it.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/
That and an in-depth look at the pre-created civilization/scenario that's included in the install file.
I've long been intrigued by Aurora but have never tried to play it. I worry that the learning curve is just too steep. Plus (shallow bastard that I am) the lack of graphics / heavy reliance on pure text is a pretty big turn off for me.
Little steps and restarts is the best way to start.
XTRG is doing a series on it at the moment...
Exiled playlist
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbSx_b5pOYvFZFacDxtVNNEKfxU4W5izw
First episode
If you can get past the graphics I found aurora to be a thoroughly engaging game and loved it to bits - as stated find a lets play on YouTube and follow their lead, for me the lack of graphics made it more immersive, imagining the colonists and science teams on the planets and discovering the new minerals
However it doesn't meet the OPs requirements as there's no fleet at all at the start
Horizon can have very long battles and you can build up the ships as you wish
While not a 4x and requiring windows 7, Conquest Frontier Wars is very fun for big battles and is somewhat the game that came before Sins of a Solar Empire....
About Armada 2526...it's one of the few 4x games that let's you play battles only if you wish (battle arena). I find it very challenging.
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 31, 2016, 04:20:24 PM
However it doesn't meet the OPs requirements as there's no fleet at all at the start
But with the GM tool, can't you give your empire virtually anything?
Quote from: Anguille on August 31, 2016, 04:34:20 PM
While not a 4x and requiring windows 7, Conquest Frontier Wars is very fun for big battles and is somewhat the game that came before Sins of a Solar Empire....
CFW is notable for only one reason...its one of the first games, particularly RTS games, to model supply as a critical factor of failure or success. Otherwise...meh.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 31, 2016, 04:35:51 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 31, 2016, 04:20:24 PM
However it doesn't meet the OPs requirements as there's no fleet at all at the start
But with the GM tool, can't you give your empire virtually anything?
I thought you could grant yourself research bonuses and tech advancements I didn't know about ships
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 31, 2016, 04:41:39 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 31, 2016, 04:35:51 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 31, 2016, 04:20:24 PM
However it doesn't meet the OPs requirements as there's no fleet at all at the start
But with the GM tool, can't you give your empire virtually anything?
I thought you could grant yourself research bonuses and tech advancements I didn't know about ships
Dunno...not sure either...
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 31, 2016, 04:37:07 PM
Quote from: Anguille on August 31, 2016, 04:34:20 PM
While not a 4x and requiring windows 7, Conquest Frontier Wars is very fun for big battles and is somewhat the game that came before Sins of a Solar Empire....
CFW is notable for only one reason...its one of the first games, particularly RTS games, to model supply as a critical factor of failure or success. Otherwise...meh.
The humour in the game is awesome imho and the fact that you have specific captains and admirals in the ships helps with the immersion....
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 31, 2016, 04:43:09 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 31, 2016, 04:41:39 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 31, 2016, 04:35:51 PM
Quote from: undercovergeek on August 31, 2016, 04:20:24 PM
However it doesn't meet the OPs requirements as there's no fleet at all at the start
But with the GM tool, can't you give your empire virtually anything?
You get build points for ships as well as research. Or you can let the computer autogenerate ships and research. I never do that as they create a lot of beam ships that die quickly. Or you can turn on the GM and just do whatever you want.
I thought you could grant yourself research bonuses and tech advancements I didn't know about ships
Dunno...not sure either...
Does it have to be a Space 4x?
Which patch is the one you recommend for MOO3? I may want to fire it up.. Im currently playing Endless Space but i certainly wouldnt mind heading back to check out a patched moo3.
I use the Tropical Mod and Patch. Latest version is 1.3.1.
Over the years, we have had so many threads discussing this game. Here is just one of them...
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=2476.0 (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=2476.0)
Quote from: Nefaro on September 01, 2016, 12:35:02 AM
Does it have to be a Space 4x?
For me anyways, space 4x is where it's at. I've never really loved Sid Meier's Civilization, strange though that may sound (...and it bugs the hell out of me that 4x as a genre still uses so many of the conventions Meier introduced 30 years ago -- time to innovate!!!).
I've never cottoned on to fantasy 4xs like Age of Wonders and Endless Legend and likely never will -- just not my cup of tea.
Quote from: sandman2575 on September 01, 2016, 08:29:39 AM
For me anyways, space 4x is where it's at. I've never really loved Sid Meier's Civilization, strange though that may sound (...and it bugs the hell out of me that 4x as a genre still uses so many of the conventions Meier introduced 30 years ago -- time to innovate!!!).
I've never cottoned on to fantasy 4xs like Age of Wonders and Endless Legend and likely never will -- just not my cup of tea.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aarcentral.com%2Fpics%2Fpicv.jpg&hash=c3dc180d4561109cdf5fdf228296d8ce50b4b283)
Actually i feel similar to sandman...while i did have fun with them, i think they are vastly overrated and i cannot understand why nobody dares to make a much better historical 4x on humanity. It's always the same....build a granary, build a settler etc...there's a lot of micromanagement in these games and this is why i always preferred the approach we had in MOO1. And now they just copied the whole thing in MOO4 (i enjoy it but again, i much prefer the other design where you can make six différent researchs at the same time, a better diplomacy etc).
Jarhead nailed it. I agree with him 100 percent on Polaris Sector and MOO3.
Quote from: bbmike on September 01, 2016, 08:39:53 AM
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aarcentral.com%2Fpics%2Fpicv.jpg&hash=c3dc180d4561109cdf5fdf228296d8ce50b4b283)
I know, I know -- blasphemy :-X
Don't get me wrong -- I think Sid Meier is a gaming genius. Civilization is arguably *the* most important strategy game for pc ever created -- undeniably the most important 4X ever created, since it created 4X sui generis, and game devs have been following (...slavishly) the template Civ set for 4X for decades now.
But in all honesty, I'm just not excited about Civ VI. I checked my Steam stats the other day for Civ V, which I bought when it came out. Years on, I have less than 12 hours playtime... The series just feels too formulaic and predictable at this point.
All of them have their deficiencies (although MOO3's are merely related to age and patching). I enjoy Polaris Sector more than the others but that has problems too. The good thing though is the amount of space 4xs out there. I WISH I enjoyed Moo4. I do. I just can't even give it a fair shot because it strikes me as too "cartoony". I think Stellaris would be my "go to" game if they would expand "minerals" into at least 6 separate ones. I just never NEED to take a system for resources. Also poor ship design. But, that's the deal.
I would give Polaris Sector another try. Play on the 3rd highest difficulty whatever it's called. As in not "easy", not "normal" but the next one (there are 2 more). Otherwise the AI seems to have no interest in developing much. As it is, I haven't seen the AI building anything above frigates even if they have the tech.
Hoping the new patch and a higher difficulty changes that
I'm another of those heretics who is rather 'Meh' about Sid's Civilization games.
They're obviously nice interesting games, but every time I start a campaign it doesn't last long. Maybe it's because every faction largely has the exact same stuff and operates the same way, with just a few different units & traits to differentiate them. The same can be said for a few others, too.
That doesn't stop me from occasionally loading up Civ and trying once more. But I gave up the hope of carrying through past the Iron Age long ago, and that only happened once.
On the other end of the spectrum, I think games like SotS had good combat & fleet action, but was very shallow on the exploration and planetary expansion. The randomized tech accessibility and unique FTL drive mechanics were great, though. Very heavily focused towards the fleet combat side. The economy, colonization, and research all seemed focused towards creating fights and adding more variety to them.
My ideal 4x would have ship/fleet building like Gratuitous Space Battles, fleet combat & Tech Research like SotS 1/2, and Exploration/Econ at Distant Worlds levels.