A substantial restoration of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem is being done. The church was built over where Christ was crucified and the tomb where Christ lay for three days after his crucifixion. The last upgrade on the Church was in the 1940s just before the British left Palestine.
They removed the top marble slab and second known marble slab. But under that they discovered a third slab thought to be from the 12th century. They then removed it and exposed the stone crypt. This is arguably the most Holy site in the Christian faith.
The Times of Israel has the story and photos of the restoration:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/at-the-holiest-spot-in-christendom-delving-for-jesuss-resting-place/
Wait, the church also is built over the Golgotha site? That doesn't seem right (even accounting for the two variations of where Golgotha actually was).
I do however recall that this church has the best claim to being built on the tomb (which couldn't be very far from the site of crucifixion). The tomb was venerated until around the time of the Bar Kochba rebellion (early 2nd century, not the earlier zealot rebellion in 70 when the Temple was destroyed), when Rome converted Jerusalem into a thoroughly non-Jewish city and built a number of pagan temples on top of Jewish and Christian holy sites. This church is the one with the running history back to that time, including in archaeology, right?
Jason - I don't know the history of that church. From the article it states:
The church itself dates originally from the 4th century, and much of today's edifice was constructed in the 12th, with the Edicule built in the early 1800s.
So the original church is from late Roman times (300AD) with the more modern edifice constructed in the 1100s.
That's the site Constantine's mother Helena founded as the place of Christ's burial. The site where he's thought to have been crucified is in the same building but a little further away from the tomb. All of it is enclosed by the massive Church of the Holy Sepulcher which was built much later from the Byzantine era. My wife and I went there in 2009. It's an incredible site to see but six different Christian denominations run the church jointly and constantly bicker over all things done there. So much so that they hire Palestinians to lock and un-lock the church each day because they cannot agree on an otherwise equitable schedule. :o I'm surprised they're allowing so much work to be done there. When I was there they didn't even allow photography or video taping.
A second place has recently become very popular as the site of Christ's burial, The Garden Tomb. I won't go into all the detail behind why it's supposed to be a more correct place historically, but there's a pretty good argument for it. It's also a beautiful place to see as well.
Quote from: Sir Slash on October 30, 2016, 09:44:23 PM
... six different Christian denominations run the church jointly and constantly bicker over all things done there. So much so that they hire Palestinians to lock and un-lock the church each day because they cannot agree on an otherwise equitable schedule.
:2funny: :idiot2:
Too true. :'(
Quote from: airboy on October 30, 2016, 01:03:23 PM
Jason - I don't know the history of that church. From the article it states:
The church itself dates originally from the 4th century, and much of today's edifice was constructed in the 12th, with the Edicule built in the early 1800s.
So the original church is from late Roman times (300AD) with the more modern edifice constructed in the 1100s.
True, the church itself was only built once Christianity became a legal religion; but the site was venerated long before then (and then desecrated in the 100s, with a temple to Venus if I recall correctly.)
Quote from: Sir Slash on October 30, 2016, 09:44:23 PM
That's the site Constantine's mother Helena founded as the place of Christ's burial.
Fun fact: St. Helena is the patron saint of archaeologists. O0
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_bkFIPLIOGL8%2FSEyVjMQe39I%2FAAAAAAAAOTI%2FGS9yXLejBsE%2Fw1200-h630-p-nu%2FDeep%2BThoughts%2Blogo.jpg&hash=72f1b99b4b23499d731d654fc4193530b92f9c50)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbc.com%2Fsites%2Fnbcunbc%2Ffiles%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2F2016%2F4%2F09%2Fdf76150b0303ada95a74943636701aeb_9f3445b09a1b3602db42b1b79f1a9a0d_1.jpg&hash=983cc7fdf0e6e5a9d0765206566d35eb96ce280f)
:2funny:
^ Ha! My favorite Jack Handey quote:
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Quote from: bbmike on November 02, 2016, 05:34:39 AM
^ Ha! My favorite Jack Handey quote:
Muhahaha!!
~~~>
:2funny:
:)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fa5%2F2e%2Fac%2Fa52eac7f141f5b80d6fb4d3d6d2bed1a.jpg&hash=408070362f194e087d3f11aecc175639e51f32ca)
There's an episode of Expedition Unknown where they go to the church and are looking for remnants of the cross. It's rather fascinating, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is right in the middle of a major city area.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 02, 2016, 09:25:27 AM
There's an episode of Expedition Unknown where they go to the church and are looking for remnants of the cross. It's rather fascinating, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is right in the middle of a major city area.
And from the episodes of Expedition Unknown that I've watched, I would guess they never find what they are looking for and only create more questions. :P
Quote from: bbmike on November 02, 2016, 09:34:36 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 02, 2016, 09:25:27 AM
There's an episode of Expedition Unknown where they go to the church and are looking for remnants of the cross. It's rather fascinating, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is right in the middle of a major city area.
And from the episodes of Expedition Unknown that I've watched, I would guess they never find what they are looking for and only create more questions. :P
Actually, they find what they're looking for, but are limited on what the guys at the church will let them do with it.
The episode on the Viking Sunstone is actually pretty excellent in what they find.
I saw those too. Expedition Unknown is good just for the scenery and seeing what other people eat as well as some of the interesting stuff they TRY to find. I think when I watch an episode, if they'd found anything important, we'd have heard about it before now.
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 02, 2016, 10:00:25 AM
Quote from: bbmike on November 02, 2016, 09:34:36 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 02, 2016, 09:25:27 AM
There's an episode of Expedition Unknown where they go to the church and are looking for remnants of the cross. It's rather fascinating, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is right in the middle of a major city area.
And from the episodes of Expedition Unknown that I've watched, I would guess they never find what they are looking for and only create more questions. :P
Actually, they find what they're looking for, but are limited on what the guys at the church will let them do with it.
The episode on the Viking Sunstone is actually pretty excellent in what they find.
Wait, they found a piece of the "true cross" and I've never heard about it? Why isn't this being trumpeted all over the world?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 02, 2016, 10:00:25 AM
Quote from: bbmike on November 02, 2016, 09:34:36 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 02, 2016, 09:25:27 AM
There's an episode of Expedition Unknown where they go to the church and are looking for remnants of the cross. It's rather fascinating, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is right in the middle of a major city area.
And from the episodes of Expedition Unknown that I've watched, I would guess they never find what they are looking for and only create more questions. :P
Actually, they find what they're looking for, but are limited on what the guys at the church will let them do with it.
The episode on the Viking Sunstone is actually pretty excellent in what they find.
Even when don't find anything it's still interesting to get the background information on whatever they're after.
Quote from: Ubercat on November 02, 2016, 10:09:19 AMWait, they found a piece of the "true cross" and I've never heard about it? Why isn't this being trumpeted all over the world?
they've found what the priests at the church claim is a piece of it, but they won't allow anyone to test it
Also, even if it's real (or any of the other putative true cross fragments scattered around the world), it wasn't like it was lost. ;)
I'm rather more sceptical about the wood being from the cross, than the Church being built over the tomb. It's possible enough, but more likely to be wrong; the provenance question (tracing a historical continuity) seems a lot dicier to me.
That said, I do think it highly likely that there were relics of the crucifixion (and Resurrection) treasured and passed around for a while, whether or not any of them survive today: bloodied items would have been wrapped in the shroud with the body if possible, according to Jewish traditions of that time.
(Turin Shroud analysis, relatedly, strongly points to some other things having been wrapped in it at the foot. If it's a fake, those details are among a long line of crazy levels of verisimilitude that one wouldn't expect hoaxers to bother with, or even be likely to know to include, whether from the medieval period or late antiquity/dark age period: artistic provenance of a shroud of Christ matching the Turin Shroud characteristics can be traced back at least as far as the 700s, if I recall correctly, maybe farther into or back beyond the early Imperial Christian period.)
The data collection has finished (a limit of 60 hours) and the site has been resealed; NatGeo provides an update: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/jesus-christ-tomb-burial-church-holy-sepulchre/ Interestingly, the article doesn't mention Helena, but rather Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, a Palestinian super-scholar familiar with the area and with the history of the area, who directed the Imperial representatives to Hadrian's temple which had been built over the prior veneration site.
(Eusebius, who would go on to write the most important of the earliest surviving histories of Christianity, was a disciple of Pamphilus of Caesarea, who had been the disciple of Origen Adamantius when Origen had been expelled by the Alexandrian bishop from Alexandria and welcomed into Palestine by the Jerusalem bishop. Together Pamphilus helped Origen create a new library at Caesarea Palestine to rival the famous Library of Alexandria to which Origen had contributed many books himself, as well as set up a new catechetical university. Origen, the first systematic Christian theologian and a progenitor of the principles of what would many centuries later become modern textual criticism, had been prized by the Roman Empire as the most learned man in history, before having every bone in his body broken during the Decian persecution, and may have contributed to the conversion of Philip the Arab, the first Christian Roman Emperor. Origen was the disciple of Titus Flavius Clemens of Alexandria, born and named after the cousin of Emperor Domition who served as Domition's consul and co-ruler of the Empire in the late 1st century before the original Clemens -- probably not to be confused with Clement of Rome, the second or third bishop succeeding Simon Peter -- was executed by his paranoid cousin, and his wife imprisoned in exile, for converting to "a Jewish superstition", typically a description for early Christianity among pagan elites. Clement of Alexandria was the disciple of Pantaneus who with his teacher founded the first Christian catechetical university, in Alexandria; Pantaneus' teacher was a disciple of John Mark, attributed as author of the Gospel According to Mark, who in his final years became the first bishop of Alexandria. John Mark in his youth served reportedly with both Paul of Tarsus and Simon Peter in their evangelical missions, and his mother owned an inn in Jerusalem frequented by Jesus' apostles; possibly also where Jesus held his final Passover celebration the night of his arrest. The line of tradition runs from Jesus --> Simon Peter (and Saul /Paul of Tarsus) --> John Mark --> Pantaneus' teacher (A'someone, I forget who at the moment) --> Pantaneus --> Clement of Alexandria --> Origen Adamantius --> Pamphilus --> Eusebius.)
Of course the restoration project itself still continues, and will for a while.
Next up will be a long and miniscule examination of the data; so far nothing jumps out as decisively identifying the tomb for being Jesus', but it certainly fits the profile: it's a Jewish tomb of the wealthy among other similar tombs, outside the early/mid 1st-century walls of Jerusalem, upon which has been demonstably built a Hadrian-era pagan temple, which was razed at the time of Eusebius after Constantine declared Christianity a legal religion, in order to expose the underlying tomb, and upon which several other layers of accretions (some protective) and destruction have accumulated. The team will be especially looking for primitive Christian graffiti below the level of Hadrian's desecration -- but the fact Hadrian (or his local governor) thought to convert a Jewish tomb to a pagan temple is highly curious in itself.