Let lines be drawn!
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2328&Itemid=99999999
I bought the bundle, but that was never in doubt. I will say that picking through which piece of the bundle I wanted was a bit challenging...
Hopefully they'll get around to the CM:SF upgrade, but I've heard little.
Already discussed here: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=18522.0 (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=18522.0)
Gotta admit I'm pretty underwhelmed by this update (debacle). Really disappointed they dropped the "Follow" command. Still, I will probably get it at some point to keep the games current.
OK.. I get it, you want to charge for your upgrades, because you think it adds value.. But when you buy a new game, it should be at the latest version, you shouldn't have to buy an update for each one.. I'm glad I never ventured past CMBN. Fun game, but I'm really not interested in being nickle and dimed to death.
Woah, stuff vanishes off the first forum page quickly around this joint!! Sorry, 'bout that!
Absolutely disappointed that the "Follow" command didn't (and apparently won't) make it. It was something we all wanted desperately back in the "no convoys for joo" days of CMx1. Certainly was no surprise we wanted it in CMx2 and it sounded like they did as well.
Very odd choice, it seems to me, having people verify their original game installation rather than the upgrade? Confused the heck out of me when I first tried it.
Still, it's the best game of its type until GT figures out MP so I must needs support it.
Fortunately I've only had a couple of problems with installation in the past, and they were quickly fixed by tech support, but their process for updating is certainly convoluted and not helped by their outdated DRM. I never bought into the "to Steam or not to Steam" debate, but here's another example of why it would be better for the consumer if they went that way.
And yeah, it would be good if they updated CMSF. I'm not sure why they let that title languish. It has so much great content.
That said, I'd be interested to hear whether you think the update is worth getting.
RyanE described the update as "subtley transformational". That may sound like an oxymoron, but I suppose the upgrade may offer small changes which make for a drastically different gameplay experience...
I don't think it is oxymoronical at all. For something to be transformational, it doesn't have to be "in your face" or obvious as a discrete change. But BFC has made several "subtle" changes to infantry combat over the last couple years. Those changes have taken the game from a rather boring, arid region, urban environment, tanks -centric game, to a more generic combined arms game to probably one of the best infantry tactical (squad-level) games out there. But it has taken this release that finally gives the infantry squad/team some inherent intelligence for self preservation beyond finding cover.
With the changes, and Steel Beasts dongle incident, CM has once again become my go to tactical game, bordering on simulator. Now if only BFC could actually manage to pump out a little more content. Every release they claim they are over the hump to start pumping out games/modules. And every time, they sucker me in.
Quote from: Tuna on December 26, 2016, 12:10:31 PM
OK.. I get it, you want to charge for your upgrades, because you think it adds value.. But when you buy a new game, it should be at the latest version, you shouldn't have to buy an update for each one.. I'm glad I never ventured past CMBN. Fun game, but I'm really not interested in being nickle and dimed to death.
As far as I can tell all new purchases of the game (BN, BS, RT & FB) is at the 4.0 engine. Upgrade is only for existing customers.
At one time, you had to buy the 1.0 game and then the upgrades. They must have changed it at some point.
Wow...just went to the BFC forums. They are still trying to fix the DRM for some people. When is this DRM issue going to stop for BFC. How bad does it have to get before BFC realizes they need a new approach.
Quote from: RyanE on December 26, 2016, 05:08:35 PM
How bad does it have to get before BFC realizes they need a new approach.
When dongles fly?
I may need to find the Latin for "possessor of a flightless dongle".
Quote from: Cyrano on December 26, 2016, 11:48:56 AM
Let lines be drawn!
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2328&Itemid=99999999
I bought the bundle, but that was never in doubt. I will say that picking through which piece of the bundle I wanted was a bit challenging...
Hopefully they'll get around to the CM:SF upgrade, but I've heard little.
Well that page is taking forever to load. Is it just me?
Quote from: Cyrano on December 26, 2016, 06:23:20 PM
I may need to find the Latin for "possessor of a flightless dongle".
It's not RyanEius?
If my dongle was flightless, I wouldn't have lost it.
The tragedy of the lost RyanEii (pretty sure I declined that correctly), I do want to hit square in the face with a shovel the tech wizard that decided my CM:RT would activate only with my CM:RT code but my CM:BN would only be activated by my 4.0 upgrade code.
Sounds like BF needs to switch to Dongles.
Yeah, the inconsistencies in how to activate are what killed my time. It almost feels like the actual process is as important to DRM as the licensing software. If you make the licensing process as difficult as possible, only the most dedicated customer will go through it.
Wait. Dongles can't fly? That's why mine never comes back when I throw it off the top of a building. :o
I love CM, but really hate the self-inflicted complexity of updates and copy protection. Sitting on the sidelines here, on the theory that buying "patches" only encourages them.
Finally got around to purchasing the version 4 upgrade for all the games, luckily things went pretty straightforward for me, no issues encountered during the process. I do have to agree their naming convention has a lot to be desired....they have both a "version" number and "game engine" number, which aren't the same. All the games versions are "2.0", except for CMBN which is "4.0", but all the game engines are the same using "4.0" (except for CMFI since not released yet). Just adds further confusion as your trying to make sure the install process went ok.
1) Downloaded all the latest full installers (wanted to start fresh and had previosuly removed the games from my system) - This did take quite a bit of time, the download servers are not the fastest in the world. No issues encountered though.
2) Installed all the latest full installers - This also took a lot of time based on the size of files and their extract process. No issues encountered though.
3) Activated all the games - No issues at all encountered, although had to use the opriginal code for CMRT versus the version 4.0 code that worked for all the other games.
At this point, everything was setup and ready for play. To complete all these steps it took 4+ hours (most of the time downloading/installing the full versions), maybe others with faster internet connections and systems could complete quicker....
Now I need to take a break before actually trying the game:)
*nod*
Got it done, but it was certainly opaque at first...
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 27, 2016, 07:24:57 AM
Finally got around to purchasing the version 4 upgrade for all the games, luckily things went pretty straightforward for me, no issues encountered during the process. I do have to agree their naming convention has a lot to be desired....they have both a "version" number and "game engine" number, which aren't the same. All the games versions are "2.0", except for CMBN which is "4.0", but all the game engines are the same using "4.0" (except for CMFI since not released yet). Just adds further confusion as your trying to make sure the install process went ok.
1) Downloaded all the latest full installers (wanted to start fresh and had previosuly removed the games from my system) - This did take quite a bit of time, the download servers are not the fastest in the world. No issues encountered though.
2) Installed all the latest full installers - This also took a lot of time based on the size of files and their extract process. No issues encountered though.
3) Activated all the games - No issues at all encountered, although had to use the opriginal code for CMRT versus the version 4.0 code that worked for all the other games.
At this point, everything was setup and ready for play. To complete all these steps it took 4+ hours (most of the time downloading/installing the full versions), maybe others with faster internet connections and systems could complete quicker....
Now I need to take a break before actually trying the game:)
My experience was similar except I chose to do the upgrade instead of a full install. The only issue I had was with CMRT. At first, it refused to authenticate with the license key that came with the upgrade. Upon reading the forums though, I saw with RT you have to use the key that came with your initial purchase of the game, not the 4.0 upgrade.
Still, although the system could be much easier and much more user friendly, it was pretty seamless for me and so I can't really get down with all the hate.
I really hope they change to a new system soon. I think what the command ops series or dcs did is the best way to go for a system with all these different modules. You have a free core that acts as a demo, then all the modules plug into that under one umbrella system instead of all these stand alones. Then bfc would just update the core instead of updates for all these different modules.
The problem is, they have the community by the balls. There are not a whole lot of options when it comes to hardcore/authentic wargames of this type. Regardless of the obtrusiveness, frustration or inconvenience caused by their DRM of choice, its not going to cause a loss of many sales. As wargamers, our tolerance for bull$hit is apparently extremely high.
Back in the early CMSF days when BFC stated the current multiple engine system was their product strategy, a bunch of us long-time CM players begged Steve to take the single engine approach. He has defended it over and over again when its been brought up. I think, realistically though, the single engine core looks like the way it should have gone. Every patch, module, and game seems to need more and more customer support from BFC. And they typically are very good at it.
I have traded emails with a few behind the scenes people and they will admit that the current system is a resources drain for them. But Steve is, if anything, stubborn in his willingness to admit mistakes. You can see the politicking he does even when he writes about the work-arounds for the licensing issues. He is very careful to not admit their decisions for product strategy have led them down this path.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 27, 2016, 03:05:32 PM
The problem is, they have the community by the balls. There are not a whole lot of options when it comes to hardcore/authentic wargames of this type. Regardless of the obtrusiveness, frustration or inconvenience caused by their DRM of choice, its not going to cause a loss of many sales. As wargamers, our tolerance for bull$hit is apparently extremely high.
The main problem is that there is no way to tell how many people would have bought CM if you didn't have the noise about management of the game patches and updates. There is hardcore crowd at BFC and a few other places that will do whatever it takes to play CM. The game mechanics are obtuse enough, that the DRM seems simple to that hardcore crowd. But someone who has ten other games to play won't be bothered. Sometimes I think Steve likes it like that.
Would I prefer it to be easier, yes. But the current process although tedious is something I'll live with to play this type of game...not a chance I'll stop purchasing this game series just because of the drm, right or wrong. I have a feeling most of their customers feel the same.
My point is I am in the same boat as you. Not sure if eliminating the DRM would increase sales dramatically. But on the other side, I don't think eliminating DRM like theirs would lead to a significant loss in sales. So to me, its just an unnecessary bother for good customers. Again, I don't mind DRM, but at some point, bad DRM is costing them money and resources they could be using to make more product.
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 26, 2016, 11:56:11 PM
Wait. Dongles can't fly?
Of course they can fly, but they end up in lost luggage.
Edit: I fully intend to upgrade my CMBN and CMFB, but I will do so once the dust has settled.
Wait...are they charging $10 for the bug fixes?
I was a low 3 digit member number member of the Big Time Software forum, was there when we crashed the server trying to download the first demo, bought multiple copies of CMBO, CMBB and CMAK, as well as some of their other games, did some modding for CM, played the hell out of it, sold even more copies for them by introducing my gaming friends to Combat Mission. I haven't bought a single thing from them since they went with the E-License DRM. Not even the final CM series patches because I was led to understand they included the DRM.
I don't know how many sales they have lost due to their choice of DRM, but I can't be the only one.
Damn, Bardolph had me checking.
Joined in 2000. Has it been so long?
CM:BB is still amongst the greatest grog games ever made. Likely makes Mt. Rushmore for me.
And JH is right, I just don't have the grief that some do over the DRM, although I wish we lived in a world where BFC didn't think it necessary.
JTS, for its part, insists its sales have gone up since installing its, admittedly far lighter, DRM.
And, yeah, I'll take this DRM all day long over against the gimped MP that PBEM++ requires; but I digress.
Any advantage to downloading the 4.0 full games rather than the 4.0 patch. I patched CMRT but am downloading CMBN in full to clean my mods.... I don't trust my Z folder to be the only thing with mods in it.
Anybody notice any nice side effects to the new patch like performance? CMRT seemed to look sharper and perform better for me. The rivers look nice.
EDIT: Might I add that the battlefront servers seem to have just plummeted in speed half way through my 4.5 gig download. My web is tested and fine for speed. Expecting this download to die any second.
Started at 4.5Mb a second and now only a few kb\s. Somebody pay their power bill :P
EDIT2: Well it did not die. Amazeballs.
EDIT3: I would have picked up final Blitzkrieg. But at $84 Australian I cannot justify it. I am also a wondering if all of these titles will be upgraded when the next gen engine battlefront are working on becomes available. I am guessing not though. Logically that would not make sense. But it seems so pointless to collect all of these titles knowing another brand new engine is coming... one that actually is a brand new engine hopefully with coop and multi-thread.
Disappointing that they still have not fixed the briefing and load screens. I need to go and get binoculars to read the briefing screens in 1920 x 1200. Also a friend has a problem with how easily tank commanders get shot when turned out. Oh well. We cannot have everything I guess.
Quote from: Destraex on December 28, 2016, 03:19:52 AM
Any advantage to downloading the 4.0 full games rather than the 4.0 patch.
EDIT: Might I add that the battlefront servers seem to have just plummeted in speed half way through my 4.5 gig download.
EDIT3: I am also a wondering if all of these titles will be upgraded when the next gen engine battlefront are working on becomes available. I am guessing not though. Logically that would not make sense. But it seems so pointless to collect all of these titles knowing another brand new engine is coming...
Disappointing that they still have not fixed the briefing and load screens. I need to go and get binoculars to read the briefing screens in 1920 x 1200. Also a friend has a problem with how easily tank commanders get shot when turned out. Oh well. We cannot have everything I guess.
1) Don't think there is any advantage to the full download unless you are multiple patches behind and want to ensure you have the latest and greatest. In my case, I downloaded the installers since I removed the games from my system awhile ago and hadn't played in a long time, so wanted to ensure I had everything and is easier then trying to figure out what incremental patches to apply.
2) Yes, performance of their download servers is questionable at times....when I downloaded all my installers, it was the longest part of my install process since their servers could only handle about half the speed of what my internet connection could handle. Not a huge issue for me since I don't download them often.
3) Not sure it is pointless to collect and purchase the existing titles since we have no idea how many more years before a totally new engine comes out...based on their track record just for incremental improvements and content, I don't expect to see it for a long time so plenty of time to enjoy existing content and get your money's worth.....plus, who knows what exactly the game engine will bring....will it be different parts of the war or just the same existing parts but upgraded?
4) I thought there was a big discussion on tank commanders at one point and in one of the patches it was toned down...don't recall much active discussions on it anymore in the forums unless people just gave up.
Quote from: Bardolph on December 27, 2016, 09:59:03 PM
I don't know how many sales they have lost due to their choice of DRM, but I can't be the only one.
There is no doubt that your likely not the only one, but guessing there hasn't been enough to force them to change their model or they are just comfortable with the level of sales they are getting...I can only imagine that even the most stubborn developer in the world would consider changing their model if they felt they were taking an extreme hit in the wallet. Of course we don't know for sure and possibly they are losing out on some good opportunities.
However, on the flip side we base our opinions on the DRM from public places such as the forums, but we have no idea what percent of customers that actually represents. Typically people who vocalize on forums falls into two categories......someone that has an issue and wants to make sure the world knows and someone that defends the company regardless of the situation. For all we know the actual number of people who have real problems might be very small to the actual number of people buying the game....likewise, it could be much greater but all we can do is speculate based on what information provided in the public.
Although I read the comments and I understand some people do experience issues (which I know is frustrating), I base my feelings on my own personal experience......I have owned every Combat Mission game and modules released by Battlefront (except the vehicle/mission pack) and I have never encountered an issue using their DRM. Yes, it is more confusing then is necessary and yes I would prefer it not tied to my physical computer setup, but hard for me to complain about it when through all these years I haven't actually experienced a problem. And I am not trying to minimize any problems experienced by others, just presenting another side that for every problem encountered, there likely is many more success stories that don't show up in the forums.
I was a slow participant in the digital download world when physical media started to disappear...just couldn't grasp how intrusive DRM (i.e. Steam, this DRM, others, etc.) was becoming and not having physical media to own. I was so fearful the game I bought with my hard earned money would not potentially be available to me some day, what if I wanted to play a game I bought 10 years ago and Steam was no longer around? But then I realized, that's really not a major concern based on my game playing habits since most games I play for a short time and rarely try to play a game from years ago....although I would be upset if Steam disappeared tomorrow more based on not having something in return, in reality I would look back at the time I enjoyed playing the games versus worrying about what the future will hold. For me, I just decided living in the moment is much better then speculating about the future but I completely understand that not everyone feels the same way.
But at the end of the day, you are doing things absolutely correctly based on your own feelings.....your taking the only action that one day might impact the company's use of the DRM, your voting with your wallet by not purchasing the game and supporting it.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 27, 2016, 03:17:50 PM
Would I prefer it to be easier, yes. But the current process although tedious is something I'll live with to play this type of game...not a chance I'll stop purchasing this game series just because of the drm, right or wrong. I have a feeling most of their customers feel the same.
Some of us are former BF customers, and don't feel that way at all.
Stopped dealing with the nonsense a few years ago. Liberating. :bd: Are we a minority of rehabilitated addicts?
Quote from: Nefaro on December 28, 2016, 12:04:31 PM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 27, 2016, 03:17:50 PM
Would I prefer it to be easier, yes. But the current process although tedious is something I'll live with to play this type of game...not a chance I'll stop purchasing this game series just because of the drm, right or wrong. I have a feeling most of their customers feel the same.
Some of us are former BF customers, and don't feel that way at all.
Stopped dealing with the nonsense a few years ago. Liberating. :bd: Are we a minority of rehabilitated addicts?
And certainly that is the way to vote your displeasure....but not sure it represents a small or large portion of their customers.
The only thing to go on lack of posting on the BFC forum. Its a pretty limited number. But any number of things contributes to that.
I certainly hesitate to post anything even remotely negative on the BFC forums as I know I'll get insta-flamed. They're much like Paradox in that regard. I wonder how many others don't want to deal with all the DRM hassle and forum hassling so they vote with the door?
One thing to consider is VERY limited umber of websites that even mention BFC/CM any more as far as news goes. I mean, the update was out three days before my post here. just a few years ago, any type of update from BFC was big news on all wargaming sites.
Again, the reasons are multiple and not necessarily tied to DRM. But in the end, so few new people show up on BFC and so many seem to not post any more, that I have to conclude their audience has shrunk significantly.
Quote from: RyanE on December 28, 2016, 02:51:53 PM
One thing to consider is VERY limited umber of websites that even mention BFC/CM any more as far as news goes. I mean, the update was out three days before my post here. just a few years ago, any type of update from BFC was big news on all wargaming sites.
Again, the reasons are multiple and not necessarily tied to DRM. But in the end, so few new people show up on BFC and so many seem to not post any more, that I have to conclude their audience has shrunk significantly.
I thought the version 4 release was on Saturday, seems to be the first mention of it at Battlefront and on their news page.....was it in some kind of soft launch before then where it was actually released 3 days prior to then?
I am sure their customers are likely smaller nowadays, not uncommon when the same product line has been out for a long time without any major overhauls, along with other gaming options available, even if not the same thing. No idea whether "significantly" less, but must still have enough customers where battlefront feels still worth supporting it.....although DRM likely caused some of its customers to look elsewhere, I am guessing the product itself is more the reason.
Nothing we can do about it besides voting with our wallets and at the moment I still choose to support them...no idea how long that will continue.
Eh DRM is a bit of a meh issue for me until it blows up.
Yes its a pain but IMO a known pain is not a show stopper. its when the DRM causes you to not play and there is no customer support to resolve your issue. Then that is a pain, otherwise its all degrees of frustration. With Battlefront we are dealing with poor scaling choices on how they initially wanted to provide new product layered with the DRM changes. To me the counter intuitiveness of what version what patch what module and what sequence or custom way to install them is what makes Battlefront less of an appealing choice going forward rather than their version of DRM. I bet that this is what turns off more gamers familiar with Battlefront games int he long term.
Con
FYI I did update the games without reinstalling it was not horrific just the usual confusing mess with a quick support to help me out from their Customer Help team.
The "soft launch" was 12/22. I think that notice got replaced a couple days later. At least it was buyable on the 22nd.
Note the date...
http://community.battlefront.com/announcement/26-happy-holidays/
Quote from: RyanE on December 28, 2016, 03:32:20 PM
The "soft launch" was 12/22. I think that notice got replaced a couple days later. At least it was buyable on the 22nd.
Gotcha, thanks....definetly strange way they went about that.
In fact, I only posted after I had downloaded it and screwed around for a day trying to get it running. The last few launches have been like this. BFC updates the store and forum, yet 2-4 days go by before anyone here mentions it. And it seems to be me a lot.
Quote from: RyanE on December 28, 2016, 03:35:22 PM
In fact, I only posted after I had downloaded it and screwed around for a day trying to get it running. The last few launches have been like this. BFC updates the store and forum, yet 2-4 days go by before anyone here mentions it. And it seems to be me a lot.
Likely purposeful to test out the install process on a few before making global announcements:)
Quote from: RyanE on December 28, 2016, 02:51:53 PM
One thing to consider is VERY limited umber of websites that even mention BFC/CM any more as far as news goes. I mean, the update was out three days before my post here. just a few years ago, any type of update from BFC was big news on all wargaming sites.
Again, the reasons are multiple and not necessarily tied to DRM. But in the end, so few new people show up on BFC and so many seem to not post any more, that I have to conclude their audience has shrunk significantly.
They don't advertise to their paying customers! I was subscribed to their newsletter but I don't think half their announcements come out in that format. Usually hear about stuff after the fact by reading this forum.
My IP was banned by BFC because it came up in a spammer list that they subscribe to. I now can't access their website. Only through my mobile phone. I raised a ticket before. Then I was able to purchase CMBS. But now, after months of inactivity, I'm blocked again. Quite draconian and it's not even DRM related. Makes it hard for me to support them even if I wanted to.