I just want to list all of the stuff I can because I really enjoy this game and have played hundreds of hours BUT so much of the user interface is horribly, horribly designed and I can't understand why.
General:
1. Almost no tool tips, the ones that do exist contain almost no information - usually just the name of something. Why? Low resolution? Pretty sure when I got this game shortly after it came out my PC had 1600x1200, doesn't seem legit, and on the strategy map especially video performance shouldn't really be an issue, even for the time it was released.
2. Disconnected Information Screens: In order to get useful information, you have to click on the unit/building - but sometimes it's a right click. Other times pertinent information (say on a city) cannot be accessed from the menu at all, and instead you must click on one of the lower buttons to open up your Faction Menu and then click another submenu. Why not at least have a link between the lists and submenus and the main information screen for a specific city, unit, etc?
Strategic Map:
1. Pointlessly Bad Camera Controls: You cannot rotate the map. You have a very limited ability to zoom in or out, or change the angle of viewing. This makes #2 much worse.
2. Units blend in with the background, especially non-military units. This makes keeping track of spies and diplomats very difficult and tedious, and very often it's almost impossible to tell whether one or two armies are in an area if it's straight-on and thus occluded by terrain, cities or other units. Sometimes even if you can see the unit it's almost impossible to click on it due to the fact that it's almost entirely blocked and you can only click on certain parts of a unit to activate it.
3. Huge User Interface with a Huge Font, so that barely any information is contained and most/all of the map is blocked when you open a menu.
Battle Map:
1. Deployment is incredibly finnicky and almost impossible to get straight, troops in different units are are always listing away from each other on one flank. or overlapping in ways that disrupt formation. There is no ability to make templates of armies, or to arrange units 'block' style so that they actually form neat lines. It would be fine if the 'drag and drop' method existed (but even still it's too goddman sketchy and arbitrary and disrupted by menus and borders that occlude a quarter of the screen or more) but there's no reason you shouldn't also be able to pop down a grid and line up your initial deployment. During deployment you should have banners with numbers for each troop in an off color from the currently selected unit always visible.
2. Horrible Movement Controls: #1 is made worse by the arbitrary pathfinding AI and crap method of giving orders to troops, so that they jumble up and randomize their position in ways that cannot be controlled and don't make any sense. Any attempt to move your line results in people pouring over eachother, ending up at a completely unpredictable angle to the target, randomly turning the wrong way, or just flat out screwing up the entire formation you just put together. You can't just tell the troops to march forward or wheel, you have to click a spot and hope that it decides to end up in some coherent formation that isn't suicide. If you try to draw out the lines using the drag method you not only cannot see where you were going to position other troops meaning you either have to keep clicking back and forth or just guess about where you put down the last end position. If you try to use the drag method it will completely ignore any formation or positioning and just lump them all in a rectangle where each troop has roughly equal frontage, your general's cavalry and velites each taking up a position just like your hoplites in some random point along the line. This is Total Retard and not a formation anyone would ever use for any reason, in game or IRL.
I'm not complaining about disorder and lag in reaching positions, which is totally realistic and OK. I'm complaining about how it's impossible to give coherent orders that tell the troops roughly where they should be in relation to each other and make sure they're at least pointed the right fucking way. Likewise, as with #1, you should be able to DESIGN TEMPLATES and order troops to arrange themselves in that format at a position you click on.
Troops also can't 'remember' to do anything in order other than shift-clicking for waypoints, for example, you can't click 'wedge' on a cataphract and then click a place for him to go; you can't have your archers drop a ram and form up behind it - you have to click drop, unpause, and then give them orders to form up in a certain pattern.
As with #2, you should have numbered banners and faded location markers showing where your troops are supposed to be GOING at all times, and likewise corresponding numbers on every unit banner. This could be turned off for a restricted view/Fog of War mode, but as it is ordering troops to do basically logical things like "DON'T LINE UP FACING EACH OTHER BUT AWAY FROM THE ENEMY WITH YOUR LIGHT TROOPS RANDOMLY IN AN X EVEN THOUGH I NEVER GAVE ANY SUCH ORDERS" is so difficult that any 'assistance' from such indicators is more a reflection of common sense and spatial awareness that the computer utterly lacks. If I want to make ridiculous formations, or if the units get overlapped or disordered while moving, that's FINE, but this crap of them just 'deciding' to finish moving and consider themselves fully finished in their movement with such outcomes is absurd.
It is also impossible to give orders to a unit to march and attack in formation, that is if I tell my pikeman to go forward I can tell him to stop short, to try to walk through while basically ignoring attacking enemies, or order him to break formation and randomly attack a particular enemy unit in a blob. What I cannot do is to tell him to engage in an advancing melee, engaging enemies in his path but maintaining formation as best as he can. This is especially annoying because this is basically WHAT PIKEMEN DO. While having them break ranks and engage the enemy as much as his unit can should be an option (currently what happens when you order an attack), I don't think the order to 'walk forward and attack anyone that get's in your way' is an unrealistic order, nor do I think that telling several units to march in order this way is unreasonable or unrealistic. Granted that terrain, attacks, etc. will disrupt the ranks and slow flanks, the point is that it should not require fucking sorcery and random luck to keep them facing forward and offensively marching at an opponent.
3. Horrible Camera Controls: This further accentuates #1 and #2. You cannot zoom out far enough, you cannot shift your angle enough. In deployment this means it's a total bitch to see where all your units are at, and you constantly have to click-and-reclick hoping to find just the right angle so that you're not running into other troops. It also means frustrating click-fests as you try to deploy troops only to find the red line (often invisible from your deployment view) screwing you up again and again, or some unclear border of a terrain feature that stops you from laying down a position at all.
This is true even if you take all camera restrictions off. I could see some limitation on viewing angle during a battle - especially with general view on - but the camera is just too damn close, too obscured and too flat. This results in endless frustration if I'm trying to deploy, this adds nothing but frustration and does not simulate any realism. It would be fine if most of the map was covered in FOW during deployment, but this shitty camera angle business does not hide anything, it just makes control incredibly tedious during deployment phase. Again, to be clear, a limited viewing angle and range DURING THE BATTLE makes perfect sense (though when I turn it OFF, it should be ALL THE WAY OFF - I should be able to view the whole map by zooming out, select troops without worrying about selecting twenty random troops because they're occluded by each other, etc.
That's all I can think of right now. Obviously this is an old game, but I don't know why some of this nonsense got past beta testing. What's worse is that, unlike TW Rome 2, RTW's interface and camera controls is mostly hard coded and thus there are no mods to fix it. This game is really good, but so many key elements of the INTERFACE are awful, in a way that accomplishes nothing whatsoever and should be obvious to anyone playing - let alone designing - the game.
Flaming pigs... that's the redeeming factor
^Truer words never spoken.
Just wait till it comes to the iPhone to see how "good" the UI can get. ;)
http://www.pockettactics.com/articles/rome-total-war-iphone/
Flaming Pigs makes-up for a lot. Watching them scare the shit out of Elephants makes it a 'classic'.
Ok, it has to be asked. Are you a JudgeDredd or Destraex sock puppet? Because I've never seen anyone else complain so much about computer games.
Where the heck is Batman when you need him? #:-)
Quote from: Toonces on October 31, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Because I've never seen anyone else complain so much about computer games.
Have you met Ghostryder?
Yeah, but he only gripes about RPGs. :nerd:
Well, RPGs that aren't Balder's Gate or Morrowind anyway.
Quote from: Toonces on October 31, 2017, 02:43:21 PM
Well, RPGs that aren't Balder's Gate or Morrowind anyway.
Daggerfall is the last real RPG on computer.
Quote from: spelk on October 31, 2017, 09:45:33 AM
Just wait till it comes to the iPhone to see how "good" the UI can get. ;)
It will probably be about like playing Civilization or Romance of the Three Kingdoms games on console.
Why are you playing that antique?
While I do agree with you OP, there have been 13 years of improvements in the series.
Rome TW was a bit of an evolutionary leap when it came out, they were experimenting with a lot of things that hadn't been done previously. Very different from the prior Total War games. I think we view it today through some rose tinted glasses.
Might want to try out Attila if the old Rome doesn't scratch your itch.
Quote from: Toonces on October 31, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Ok, it has to be asked. Are you a JudgeDredd or Destraex sock puppet? Because I've never seen anyone else complain so much about computer games.
Where the heck is Batman when you need him? #:-)
:clap:
Fk Henry ford and his lack of suspension, power steering and anti lock braking system on the ford model t as well
:2funny:
^+1 :DD
Cheimison is what you would get if Judge Dredd and Jason Pratt fell in love and had a baby.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 31, 2017, 05:43:58 PM
Cheimison is what you would get if Judge Dredd and Jason Pratt fell in love and had a baby.
Today's winner of the Internet.
Yet another occasion that proves that Grogheads is best browsed while not consuming food or drink.
Quote from: Toonces on October 31, 2017, 06:49:23 PM
Yet another occasion that proves that Grogheads is best browsed while not consuming food or drink.
Excluding whiskey.
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 31, 2017, 04:50:26 PM
Fk Henry ford and his lack of suspension, power steering and anti lock braking system on the ford model t as well
Yeah, yeah, but wasn't the frame made out of Titanium or something? Some kind of metal alloy with metal in it. It had spring suspension I'm pretty sure and a flexible frame of mobelenium or something.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on October 31, 2017, 07:05:09 PM
Quote from: Toonces on October 31, 2017, 06:49:23 PM
Yet another occasion that proves that Grogheads is best browsed while not consuming food or drink.
Excluding whiskey.
Whiskey makes everything better.
Seriously. Rome TW was made during the time when there is no consensus on great UI. Like how Duke Nukem didn't use the now-common WASD + mouse scheme.
Duke Nukem mentioned in a TW thread. I can now sleep.
Quote from: jomni on October 31, 2017, 07:50:28 PM
Seriously. Rome TW was made during the time when there is no consensus on great UI. Like how Duke Nukem didn't use the now-common WASD + mouse scheme.
This.
I don't think the Total War UI reached it's current level of functionality until Rome 2 or Attila.
The original TW:Rome is so olde it deserves to have an irrelevant 'E' on the end.
Anyway..
At least do yourself a favor and run TW: Rome 2. Despite still having some staple issues present in the whole TW series, it's been an enjoyable TW since it got patched up years ago. And the UI is miles beyond the original Rome's.
Ironically I hate the Rome 2 mechanics and have been seriously considering giving Rome 1 another go. I freaking hate the province management BS in the later iterations of Total War. HATE.
On topic, though, I wonder when JD is going to browse into this thread and realize we're busting on him? Teehee! :hide:
Quote from: Toonces on October 31, 2017, 10:46:20 PM
Ironically I hate the Rome 2 mechanics and have been seriously considering giving Rome 1 another go. I freaking hate the province management BS in the later iterations of Total War. HATE.
Meh. They don't bother me. The building is similar to Shogun 2, but with that extra artificial province hierarchy thing. Didn't bother me much after I learned how it worked. *shrug* May have been a waste of dev time doing so, however.
I think they were trying to entice both players & AI to conquer more uniformly instead of making a long narrow swath across the much larger map than previous games. I suspect there were some really strange blobs happening in testing, and giving the bonus for owning each 3-piece province was probably the idea someone came up with.
Quote
On topic, though, I wonder when JD is going to browse into this thread and realize we're busting on him? Teehee! :hide:
It's JD. He may never notice. :))
RTW Is still one of my all time favorite games. I'd love to play it again but it's just so damned old. No, wait. I'M so damned old. No. Actually we both are. "Slash Total War" would be so old that the manual would be printed in Babylonian and use hieroglyphics for the DRM questions. And have Flaming Pigs.
What I mean, if we're being honest, is that in every TW game, I checked the box for province management, picking balanced, military, etc. And let the AI deal with that shit. I just wanted to build armies and fight.
The new TW don't let you do that. I'm not saying TW:R2 is bad, just that I long for the simpler days.
Nothing to do with Chemguy's sock puppet, but I'm not going to lie, I'm kinda over the new Rome for the old Rome mechanics. I mean, the gameplay is still solid.
Quote from: Nefaro on October 31, 2017, 03:45:18 PM
Why are you playing that antique?
My laptop can't handle the newer ones, mostly because of the ridiculous amounts of animation in the battles. This is one reason I prefer non-animated units, like Hearts of Iron NATO icons or tabletop simulacrums like Field of Glory.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on October 31, 2017, 03:50:13 PM
While I do agree with you OP, there have been 13 years of improvements in the series.
Rome TW was a bit of an evolutionary leap when it came out, they were experimenting with a lot of things that hadn't been done previously.
There is a lot of cool stuff in it, but I think the camera issues and deployment/control problems are something that aren't really technology dependent. Hearts of Iron 2 is a real time game that has vastly superior control over how units operate, I know it's a totally different setup but in principle I don't see why you can't set up staged commands and locked formations. The later games have these, and it's not like they're big processing drains or anything. The game had two expansions and seven patches, they could have fixed this stuff at any point along those.
Quote from: jomni on October 31, 2017, 07:50:28 PM
Seriously. Rome TW was made during the time when there is no consensus on great UI. Like how Duke Nukem didn't use the now-common WASD + mouse scheme.
The entire control scheme could be modded on Duke Nukem at the release of the game. I can't see any reason to have a locked camera out of control, or huge UI panels that block everything and contain VERY LITTLE information. Again, Hearts of Iron 2 managed to fit 20x the information into 1/2 the screen space. There's no need for huge fonts and huge windows, especially when 50% of these menus are blank space, not even decorative, just empty parchment! Bad design, dude, and I don't know how someone didn't see that.
Quote from: Toonces on October 31, 2017, 10:46:20 PM
...have been seriously considering giving Rome 1 another go.
Aside from the UI it has some really cool features, I like the boardgame-like strategic level and the interesting range of (ahistorical and OP) units that you get, especially as the Seleucids or eastern Romans (whichever fake clan that is).
Quotein every TW game, I checked the box for province management, picking balanced, military, etc.
That's exactly how I don't play games like this! I am very into management and grand strategy, and I exploit the Hell out of the ability to snowball v. the computer by micromanaging everything. That's how you have a million man army by 1600 in EU. The battles are a fun part of the game, but I might prefer RTW if it went to Field of Glory for battles instead of an RTS. Fighting, to me, is secondary to constructing the largest and most advanced army in the world that can crush all opposition. I could easily curb-stomp this game using auto-battle because of the insane amount of 12-stack, super-trained high end units I have by midgame. To accomplish that you have to make sure the right buildings are built in the right cities and that you're always producing the optimal units in any given city.
In the RTS mode I actually curb stomp harder than the auto-battle, and usually kill 90% of the enemy army while taking 1/5th - 1/10th the losses. A bit of good positioning and a full stack of cataphracts, horse archers, silver shield legions and phalanx will break the computer's army just by standing still.
Quote from: Sir Slash on October 31, 2017, 11:03:07 PM
RTW Is still one of my all time favorite games.
Yes, mine, too. That's the reason the UI infuriates me, it could be a vastly less frustrating and tedious game with a few changes like free camera control (at least outside of battle) and a vastly optimized use of screen space.
QuoteI'd love to play it again but it's just so damned old.
I often prefer older games because I do not really like graphics - even before my awesome (for then) PC broke, most of the games I was playing were hex counters and static models. I'm way, way more interested in informative text, clean layouts and easily understood visual indicators than I am in anti-aliasing or any of that crap. I wish EU4 had chits instead of animated troops who all look the damn same anyway (unless you're so zoomed in that you can't see anything). Graphics in a strategy game are, IMO, largely useless.
I enjoyed Rome 2 even while people were screaming for patches upon it's release. I also enjoy managing the provinces. Real men manage their own provinces when they're not shopping for watches or brushing their Uggs.
I like R2 pretty well too. Am I a real man?
^ Aint nobody got time for that province management BS. ::)
Quote from: Yskonyn on November 01, 2017, 11:09:21 AM
I like R2 pretty well too. Am I a real man?
Also really enjoyed R2!
I manage all my RTW 2 provinces just to make sure they don't slip-in a delicatessen on me.
So it is posted, so it shall be. Real Men Manage Their R2 Provinces.
(https://i.imgflip.com/1ymji9.jpg)
I like it. Commander Lazybones von Uggs will not.
Quote from: Toonces on November 01, 2017, 11:11:48 AM
^ Aint nobody got time for that province management BS. ::)
I actually enjoy the campaign map stuff in the Total War series.
Am I a weirdo?
(don't answer that)
Also.. I always thought the original Rome TW was very flawed. It was a new engine with new changes, at the time, so it was to be expected. However, those were the days when larger strategy developers didn't put as much extended effort into post-release patches.
Weirdo...real man...hey whateva
Quote from: Nefaro on November 01, 2017, 06:25:03 PM
I actually enjoy the campaign map stuff in the Total War series.
Other than the problems with the inferface, that's one of my favorite parts of the game. I have always been more interested in strategy/operational management than tactical stuff. Partly because strategy/operations in the ancient world are much better understood than tactics, anyway. And also because I'm naturally more inclined to logistics and management than I am toward action.
The game definitely had it's odd behavior. I played all three Roman factions campaign to completion and I was always afraid the other 2 factions would gang-up on me, though they never did. So I kept a close eye on them.
While playing as the blue faction I was wondering why he green faction had almost no troops anywhere. My spy finally found their armies, must've been about 8-10 full 20 stack armies, just hanging out in a circle somewhere in like southern Russia. Not moving, or besieging anybody, just hanging out there. :o
Quote from: Sir Slash on October 31, 2017, 11:03:07 PM
RTW Is still one of my all time favorite games. I'd love to play it again but it's just so damned old. No, wait. I'M so damned old. No. Actually we both are. "Slash Total War" would be so old that the manual would be printed in Babylonian and use hieroglyphics for the DRM questions. And have Flaming Pigs.
...and Naked Barbarians.
Did you ever try the Roma Surrectum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?251-Roma-Surrectum) mod? I mean, if you still play it once and a while (I know I do), give it a shot.
RTW Is the only TW game I've never played modded. I can't remember if I played one for the Barbarian Invasion add-on.
I LOVED Barbarian Invasion when it was released. The only TW I play unmodded is Shogun 2.
The only way I could win Shogun 2 was to mod it to the Darth Mod. The damned 'Realm Divide' killed me every time. The Barbarian Invasion Hun Campaign was tough too. The Huns were unbeatable on the battlefield but completely helpless trying to manage large cities with hostile populations. Great games.
I won and survived realm divide with no mods
Quote from: Gusington on November 02, 2017, 06:38:58 PM
I LOVED Barbarian Invasion when it was released. The only TW I play unmodded is Shogun 2.
What mods for Rome 2 do you use, Gus? I play it vanilla and I don't think its bad at all?
^ Except for the province management you mean.
Real Men manage their provinces 24/7, yo.
It has been years since I've played the original Rome TW 2, but IIRC I used the latest versions of Radious' mods - they are quite choice and I remember them causing barely any issues on the technical side.
Shogun 2 remains unbeaten for me...I have never won that game! Love it, though. Perfect in every way - it's a work of art. If I could, I would marry Shogun 2.
I think it's actually legal in California. But only as long as you force someone to violate their religious beliefs to do it. After 'Darth' moved on to greater things, I've gone with Radious for all my TW mod needs. I like the extra units included and less psychotic AI pace. But I wouldn't marry it. Unless it had lots of money.
It does.
Quote from: Sir Slash on November 02, 2017, 06:37:42 PM
RTW Is the only TW game I've never played modded. I can't remember if I played one for the Barbarian Invasion add-on.
Roma Surrectum has a version for all games, I recall. All games being RTW, BI, and Alexander. I played it mostly with BI engine.
What's good about it Crossroads?
Quote from: Gusington on November 03, 2017, 08:44:43 AM
If I could, I would marry Shogun 2.
You can in Canada and several European countries.
I don't know if Shogun 2 would have me.
Quote from: jomni on November 02, 2017, 10:00:31 PM
I won and survived realm divide with no mods
Same! :bd: <:-)
Wasn't easy!
Quote from: Sir Slash on November 03, 2017, 09:23:23 AM
What's good about it Crossroads?
Overall, it is just a great mod. Economics, building types, factions, everything's been totally redone. It's got a very nice, historical feel, and it covers the whole Roman world of the time.
It feels it's age, but the graphics are all redone, so it is as good as it gets with that engine. Republic feels like a republic, there's the various reforms, at the stage when you start to have your numbered legions it goes yet to another level, for me at least.
Give it a try if you have the time. The forum I linked has gone a bit quiet lately, but there's many great threads to look at for help in getting started.
In other words, the strategic map is fully immersive as well, as you plan on how to develop each city and region as well, and there's a plethora of choices and routes to take. :dreamer:
Sounds good. Maybe I'll give it a look-see.
If it'd been me, I would have put it in capital letters under my avatar. And begin every post with that Title.
Quote from: Sir Slash on November 04, 2017, 10:40:14 AM
If it'd been me, I would have put it in capital letters under my avatar. And begin every post with that Title.
Did it on my first try, even. Came down to one final tough defensive battle outside Kyoto with one turn left. *whew*
I never won Shogun 2 in any era but came the closest in Fall of the Samurai. I had conquered half of Japan and had sent an army and fleet to take the capital and both were sunk just off shore from the city. I raged for days. But I lost fair and square. I'll be back though, soon :) It's been too long.
The vanilla 'Realm Divide' caught me at the worst possible time with Public Order falling because of religious differences and my armies at the front fighting the war. When my allies all deserted me, I knew it was time to end it all with honor. So I quit and went to the Darth Mod.
Quote from: Gusington on November 05, 2017, 11:30:14 AM
I never won Shogun 2 in any era but came the closest in Fall of the Samurai. I had conquered half of Japan and had sent an army and fleet to take the capital and both were sunk just off shore from the city. I raged for days. But I lost fair and square. I'll be back though, soon :) It's been too long.
I have! :P
(That said, it's not that common an occurrence unless you get off to a good start and can survive the early AI rush sufficient to build up your fiefdom to a self supporting level. My last few efforts as the Hattori in SJ were disastrous, although I conquered the map with the Otomo. With FotS, its the same issue, but conquered map after the realm divide with the Satsuma (Imperial) and Nagaoka (Shogun). I also had another try as Nagaoka thwarted, so it's hard but not impossible). Rebellion causing units are essential units IMOH for a win in any of the TW:S2 campaigns.