Hello everyone: brand new here and also new to wargaming in general! Got a question here I'm hoping you could help me out with. I've been teaching myself the NATO unit symbols, for which the symbols for anti-tank and anti-air I understand are a right-side up triangle
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/NATO_Map_Symbol_-_Anti-Tank.svg)
and a dome
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/NATO_Map_Symbol_-_Air_Defence.svg).
However, I have picked up more than one computer wargame in which the symbol for anti-tank is an upside -down triangle with a dot -
(https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/images/7/7f/NATO_anti-tank.png)
(I could understand the dot as denoting artillery but it seems to me it should still be a right side up triangle) and anti-air as a triangle with a line
(https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/images/a/a0/NATO_anti-air.png).
Is there more than one accepted set of symbols? Why the discrepancy?
Sorry for the weird image sizes!
there's an official set of NATO military symbology that's required for use in professional contexts, like battlefield events tracking apps and professional sims used by the military
PDF here: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/doctrine/other/ms_2525d.pdf
More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Joint_Military_Symbology
However, game designers are free to modify things however they want, and mix-and-match to their heart's content however they choose.
An example is wheeled vehicles, who's NATO-std icon is nothing like what most commercial designers use.
So there's a universal standard among those that can actually enforce one - the military. But there isn't in the anarchy that is game design,
WW2 game?
The v with artillery is an anti-tank tank destroyer (artillery with anti-tank guns) if it had an oval it'd be a self-propelled anti-tank tank destroyer (tanks with anti-tank guns).
The inverted v with the line is anti-air.
The US symbols were standardize post-WW2 to what is now referred to as NATO symbols.
These serious wargaming discussions unsettle me.
Quote from: Bison on December 15, 2017, 10:44:08 PM
WW2 game?
The v with artillery is an anti-tank tank destroyer (artillery with anti-tank guns) if it had an oval it'd be a self-propelled anti-tank tank destroyer (tanks with anti-tank guns).
The inverted v with the line is anti-air.
The US symbols were standardize post-WW2 to what is now referred to as NATO symbols.
They are both WW2, perhaps that's the difference. WW2 symbols differed from the present NATO ones?
Quote from: mirth on December 15, 2017, 10:47:00 PM
These serious wargaming discussions unsettle me.
It's like finding out that Sindarin is real and your pronunciation is all wrong.
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on December 15, 2017, 10:54:46 PM
Quote from: Bison on December 15, 2017, 10:44:08 PM
WW2 game?
The v with artillery is an anti-tank tank destroyer (artillery with anti-tank guns) if it had an oval it'd be a self-propelled anti-tank tank destroyer (tanks with anti-tank guns).
The inverted v with the line is anti-air.
The US symbols were standardize post-WW2 to what is now referred to as NATO symbols.
They are both WW2, perhaps that's the difference. WW2 symbols differed from the present NATO ones?
Yes. Very similar because NATO symbols evolved out of US symbols post WW2. A "v" in current NATO symbols is air assault for example but smaller and not corner to corner, anti-armor is an inverted "v" and anti-air defense is the dome like the first images you posted. There's more that can be added to the symbol frame to add unit capabilities like wheeled or tracked, etc... You can google WW2 symbols and find the standard symbols that the US military used and those used by the Germans.
Gawd, we're nerds.
Here's the thing....
NATO wasn't around in WW2!!!!
:wow:
True. However, that doesn't mean that historical symbols are used. How many games use the actual German symbols to indicate the type of unit? I cannot think of one. I'm sure that there is one, but I cannot think of any. So what do designers do? They use NATO symbols because they are a common military language now. The real heretics use silhouettes to identify the type of unit. :)
There was a set of Nato symbols around and in use before Nato existed. Most of them were adopted into what we now think of as the Nato symbol set. If I remember correctly the symbols for anti-air and anti-tank were a bit different from the ones that get used now, which probably date to the late sixties or early seventies.
The Library of Congress has U.S. Army situation maps from the end of the war available online. These are essentially the ancestors of the West Point Atlas military maps. Whenever I look at them I'm always impressed by how easy they are to read, and they only use one color. Sometimes less is more.
The Germans and the Soviets each had their own style of military symbols. The German symbols were quite ingenious in terms of the amount of information that they conveyed, but they probably gave you too much information. The Soviet symbols were somewhat simpler, but much harder to read.
Although the American symbols which evolved into Nato symbols were probably the easiest to read at an operational level, the Germans had the best convention for headquarters symbols. Every now and then you'll see a wargame designer adopt part of the German HQ symbols set. I think I've seen a screenshot from the Operational Art of War that was using it.
I remember seeing a game (I can't remember which) that used these:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/f4/26/22f426841d38a6f0d6b7506562bdf0ab.gif)
They just freaked me out.
AH's The Longest Day board game used the the German style symbols.
I made a set of them for Advance Tactics when we made the World at War scenario.
Quote from: Barthheart on December 16, 2017, 07:22:06 AM
AH's The Longest Day board game used the the German style symbols.
I made a set of them for Advance Tactics when we made the World at War scenario.
Ah that was it I think, Advanced Tactics!! Good job Sir!
Quote from: Barthheart on December 16, 2017, 07:22:06 AM
AH's The Longest Day board game used the the German style symbols.
I made a set of them for Advance Tactics when we made the World at War scenario.
So did/does the board game, Streets of Stalingrad...
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbackerclub.co%2Fuploads%2Fsubmissions%2F10624%3F1498169537&hash=07100ad423f5bfcc891e0e538a6c5e86ee65a057)
Note v4 of that game has been cancelled, but the earlier version used the equivalent symbology.
David
That's really cool. I knew there had to be some games that used the German symbols.
Quote from: Bison on December 15, 2017, 11:56:13 PM
I'm sure that there is one, but I cannot think of any.
Summer Lightning uses German symbols for the Germans and NATO symbols for the Poles
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic985107_md.jpg)
Into The Bear Trap uses Soviet symbology
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic109633_md.jpg)
Quote from: Bison on December 15, 2017, 11:56:13 PM
The real heretics use silhouettes to identify the type of unit. :)
suckit
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bayonetgames.com%2Fimages%2F1counterbar.jpg&hash=2a3be04054b0603a0088d317e86a7bb39f334bdb)
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on December 15, 2017, 10:54:46 PM
Quote from: Bison on December 15, 2017, 10:44:08 PM
WW2 game?
The v with artillery is an anti-tank tank destroyer (artillery with anti-tank guns) if it had an oval it'd be a self-propelled anti-tank tank destroyer (tanks with anti-tank guns).
The inverted v with the line is anti-air.
The US symbols were standardize post-WW2 to what is now referred to as NATO symbols.
They are both WW2, perhaps that's the difference. WW2 symbols differed from the present NATO ones?
Welcome to Groghead CaptainKoloth!.. Don't let all the side comments scare you away, just peoples way of having fun. Also the people that want to have impressive post counts to, this helps them get their totals up. :crazy2: Just kidding of course, I hope you get the information you're looking for a lot knowledgeable Groggy's on here.
What game are the photo counters from?
Quote from: Bison on December 16, 2017, 09:14:54 AM
What game are the photo counters from?
Some random guy on the internet...
http://www.bayonetgames.com/wmaneuverwarrior.htm
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 16, 2017, 09:18:04 AM
Quote from: Bison on December 16, 2017, 09:14:54 AM
What game are the photo counters from?
Some random guy on the internet...
http://www.bayonetgames.com/wmaneuverwarrior.htm
Never heard of that guy. ;D
Quote from: Tuna on December 16, 2017, 09:10:02 AM
Quote from: CaptainKoloth on December 15, 2017, 10:54:46 PM
Quote from: Bison on December 15, 2017, 10:44:08 PM
WW2 game?
The v with artillery is an anti-tank tank destroyer (artillery with anti-tank guns) if it had an oval it'd be a self-propelled anti-tank tank destroyer (tanks with anti-tank guns).
The inverted v with the line is anti-air.
The US symbols were standardize post-WW2 to what is now referred to as NATO symbols.
They are both WW2, perhaps that's the difference. WW2 symbols differed from the present NATO ones?
Welcome to Groghead CaptainKoloth!.. Don't let all the side comments scare you away, just peoples way of having fun. Also the people that want to have impressive post counts to, this helps them get their totals up. :crazy2: Just kidding of course, I hope you get the information you're looking for a lot knowledgeable Groggy's on here.
Yes, people are astonishingly knowledgeable here! Imagine that, you ask a question on a forum and you actually... get a good answer??? A lot of them! That basically never happpens anywhere else.
Quote from: Bison on December 16, 2017, 09:20:36 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on December 16, 2017, 09:18:04 AM
Quote from: Bison on December 16, 2017, 09:14:54 AM
What game are the photo counters from?
Some random guy on the internet...
http://www.bayonetgames.com/wmaneuverwarrior.htm
Never heard of that guy. ;D
Nice FRONT PAGE Brandt!!! ::)
Quote from: Tuna on December 16, 2017, 09:54:29 AM
Nice FRONT PAGE Brandt!!! ::)
who is this "brandt" guy?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 16, 2017, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: Tuna on December 16, 2017, 09:54:29 AM
Nice FRONT PAGE Brandt!!! ::)
who is this "brandt" guy?
So many unsolved mysteries around here. It's time to call in Robert Stack.
I would prefer Leonard Nimoy. You know, "In Search Of...Brandt"!
Quote from: bbmike on December 16, 2017, 10:07:27 AM
I would prefer Leonard Nimoy. You know, "In Search Of...Brandt"!
;D
I propose Carl Sagan
"Billions and billions of counters..."
Carl Sagan would have said, "Billions and billions of properly trimmed counters..."
Quote from: bbmike on December 16, 2017, 12:00:34 PM
Carl Sagan would have said, "Billions and billions of properly trimmed counters..."
:bd:
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 15, 2017, 10:20:27 PM
there's an official set of NATO military symbology that's required for use in professional contexts, like battlefield events tracking apps and professional sims used by the military
PDF here: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/doctrine/other/ms_2525d.pdf
More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Joint_Military_Symbology
However, game designers are free to modify things however they want, and mix-and-match to their heart's content however they choose.
An example is wheeled vehicles, who's NATO-std icon is nothing like what most commercial designers use.
So there's a universal standard among those that can actually enforce one - the military. But there isn't in the anarchy that is game design,
I believe we've got something like 450+ alternative NATO symbols in the Campaign Series: Middle East game. It's platoon scale, it covers 1948-1985, and you'd like to be sure it's a heavy tank unit and not a light tank you're sending into harm's way right.
Having said that, I wouldn't bet the house they are all military proof, it is just common layers on top of each other.
Amphibious Armored Tracked Medium Infantry Fighting Vehicle, or the same but with
Anti-tank Missiles to top it off? There's a not so subtle difference in game play with those two :nerd:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matrixgames.com%2Fforums%2Fupfiles%2F32195%2F7D0D1D64C0E14884AB159A17D29BB63F.jpg&hash=b1cfaa8e8afcf42e53fe2fe028e0029e3ff94413)
Quote from: Crossroads on December 16, 2017, 04:36:29 PM
something like 450+ alternative NATO symbols
I checked, it's 453 at the moment, with Priest just added to the lot. Yes, that's right, CS Vietnam OoB would include French Catholic Militia, and instead of a Commander symbol Mike Amos put a Priest there instead, because, well, would be nice to have the tally go to 500.
But we won't get that far, I don't think so, pushing it already :(
Quote from: Bison on December 15, 2017, 11:56:13 PM
True. However, that doesn't mean that historical symbols are used. How many games use the actual German symbols to indicate the type of unit? I cannot think of one. I'm sure that there is one, but I cannot think of any. So what do designers do? They use NATO symbols because they are a common military language now. The real heretics use silhouettes to identify the type of unit. :)
The Grand Tactical Series by MMP does. Devil's Cauldron, Where Eagles Dare, etc. The Germans use German symbols and the American and Brit forces use their own appropriate ones. A little confusing at first but pretty cool.
Close Combat uses German symbols for Germans.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fanatolisgameroom.com%2Fpc%2520game%2520pictures%2FCCE2013-06-0721-29-23-91.jpg&hash=8abb5ad3eb39b13313dc2c43f9caa85e7bfde6a1)
Nato symbols for Allies.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slitherine.com%2Ffiles%2Fgames%2F386%2F20100628131924.JPG&hash=7f53c75ec619ef2707f777f3f026e0761b9acdf9)
Very cool. I figured there were many games that used non-NATO counters.
Quote from: Ubercat on December 16, 2017, 04:53:42 PM
The Grand Tactical Series by MMP does. Devil's Cauldron, Where Eagles Dare, etc. The Germans use German symbols and the American and Brit forces use their own appropriate ones. A little confusing at first but pretty cool.
I'd love to give these games a whirl but I doubt I'll ever have the chance to do so. I most certainly do not have the table or floor space to layout all of the maps.
That's what Vassal and Skype are for. I have Where Eagles Dare and I'm on the P500 list for Devils Cauldron. At WBC '11, a few guys had both linked games set up on a custom made, irregularly shaped table. The combined maps had to be at least roughly 15' long by 5-6' wide, with a bend in the middle.
I think it was Curtis Baer's gaming group. They have something big going on every year. I was hoping they'd be playing Last Blitzkrieg this year but they were on a WW1 kick. :'(