Stay out if you don't spoilers.
Just can't help yourself, can you... >:D >:D >:D
So, Captain Marvel is going to set the Universe right, eh?
I wonder if next season's Agents of Shield is going to operate in a Universe with half of life suddenly gone?
Quote from: Capn Darwin on April 28, 2018, 08:17:02 AM
Just can't help yourself, can you... >:D >:D >:D
Fairly warned be thee, says I. :arr:
Saw it Thursday night with the Fam. It was awesome. Want to see it again to pick up on all the subtle stuff I missed.
I honestly didn't think that Thanos would win. So obviously the next movie will involve time shinanagans to set things right. Or there won't be another Black Panther, Guardians. Spider Man, etc. Movie.
The Marvel's Agents of Shield show last night referenced, 'the things going on in New York'. Don't know if that's the space ship's arrival or what but I'm sure they'll work in some connection. The ending caught me totally by surprise too but makes sense when you think about it being a two part story. Dr. Strange's comment to Tony Stark about 'this being the only way' leads me to think Ironman will be the one to take-out Thanos in next film somehow and meet his heroic end. I'm not sure about his 'dream' about Potts having a baby though... could Capt. Marvel be Tony and Pepper's child somehow conceived through the Time Stone alternate-time loop thing back in the 90's to save the Universe?
Oooooo....
I thought that the comment about NYC referred to Doc, Tony and Spidey's tussle with 2 of Thanos' kids.
Just to hurt your heads:
Soul stone has Gamora's soul in it, hence the scene of her talking as a child to Thanos in the waters of the planet. Bet she will mess with him from within.
With the reality stone, any number of realities may exist with random versions of the Avengers in it. Just need a way to open portals and unite the team.
Or we are seeing altered reality from Thanos "killing off" half the population and it's not all true.
Avengers 4 starts with Stark in the shower and it's all a dream... <:-)
Please Tony, don't turn around!
I havent seen the movie yet, read this thread or this article, but figured there may be spoilers.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5ae201e5e4b04aa23f20d4a5/amp
My cleverly non-spoilerish review now posted in the other thread here: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=20019.msg609901#msg609901
My spoilery-er comments can now begin.
But not immediately for the sake of OJD.
1.) I'll be curious to see some thorough compilation of trailer shots that lied to the audience. Of the two examples that come to mind, the Hulk fighting in Wakanda seems the most important. Perhaps that's meant for Av4?
2.) Whichever reviewers were complaining about "fridging" women in this movie, needs to go look up what that trope means. No female character was randomly killed off to shock their male lover into a revenge-based plot. Gamora's death, while pulled somewhat out of plot-nowhere (along with the soul-stone plot), was not fridging: it served its own dramatic functions, and rather important ones. Loki might count as fridging? (I'll be sad to see him gone from the MCU, but I suspect his death really is permanent this time. When it didn't have to be, at all. More on that later perhaps.) Did any other female characters die before the final result? (Not many did then! -- just Scarlet Witch so far as I recall.)
3.) I was a little surprised that all the original Avengers survived. I assume Clint/Hawkeye is being held in reserve as a guest for the Ant-Man film and maybe Av4.
4.) Also a tad surprised that Cap's shield didn't return. I mean, conceptually I suppose I'm not surprised, but there was less than no reason for it to be in the movie. Cap's in Wakanda for the whole second half, where the material for his shield comes from, and T'Challa actually says, "SOMEONE GET THIS MAN A SHIELD!" There have been two years since the end of Civil War (the film makes this clear several times), and they've had plenty of time to make him a new one (assuming no one is going to give him the old one back). But no.
5.) Was there an homage to the Superman/Batman arc from a few years ago (...now kaput thanks to the Nu52, I think...), eventually produced as an animated film, where Batman delays Darkseid by punching him somewhat uselessly with gauntlet blades? Maybe that was a coincidence.
6.) I supposssssssse I understand the plot necessity of nerfing (or in story-trope terms "Worfing") the Hulk so hard, but it doesn't make any real sense in-universe.
7.) Loki got rather badly nerfed, too, for equally no good reason in-story. I don't even understand why Heimdall was the one to teleport Banner back to Earth (and specifically to Doctor Strange). I don't even understand how Heimdall did that. This feels like a very late plot alteration, since otherwise Heimdall might die without contributing anything (like most of Thor's other friends in T3!) Whereas if Loki was willing to tesser Banner back to Strange's sanctum (which makes some plot-connection sense in a few ways), then the question would be raised WHY HE DOESN'T USE THE TESSERACT AGAINST THANOS AT ALL! Or save his brother with the tesseract. This is the first time in the film the plot would have been derailed by people acting with more sense. And while generally the opposing sides don't duel each other at acting dumb for plot convenience sake, neither is it the last.
8.) Despite Hulk being unreasonably nerfed and sidelined, I did appreciate Banner getting to contribute a little more the plot, as himself, this time. Some decent lemonade was made from that plot-lemon.
I'm sure I'll have more to comment about later, but I'm tired now.
Back with a question for discussion.
"Nanotech" armor. I understand the convenience of it from a film-making perspective. But I still feel like it's a mistake. The suits no longer feel real to me, I guess. I don't have the same problem with "Asgardian nanotech" (which I assume in-story Tony has reversed engineered or something like that, as it seems like a big jump since, wow, literally since only Spider-man a few story-months ago), but mainly because it's used sparingly in the films.
Did anyone else get a weird feeling of disappointment from the nano-tech applications in the film? Does it go so far as to break suspension of disbelief or something like that? I don't think I'll go on a crusade against it, but... :-\
I thought the whole nano-tech thing was just an easy way to have the actors faces on screen all the time without pulling off their helmets and then putting them back on---Ironman, Black Panther and Spider-Man. And Cap did have shields on each arm or at least one that I saw, small black shields that I assumed were made in Wakanda. I agree the biggest dishonesty was the scene from the trailers of the Hulk in the final battle when he didn't show up at all but maybe the decision to leave him out occurred last minute and the scene was already shot. Don't know. The funniest line I thought was Banner's, "There's an Ant Man AND a Spider-Man now"?
He also had the best battle line: "Oh, you guys are so screwed now!"
He may have had the best battle lines overall through the movie.
Put here for spoiler potential.
Rich Evans: "It's the most depressing summer popcorn flick since... insert joke here?" Mike suggests Ghostbusters '16.
There's also a nod to the possibility that Kevin Feige decided to model Cap's "Nomad" face on the toy, on Jay!
I'll be curious to see if the RLM team (or anyone else) agrees that the biggest mistake for plot composition going forward was that all the original Avengers survive (plus Rhodey who has been there since IM1, though not as War Machine). Almost all the new characters introduced since then got axed. Vision and Scarlet, gone. Black Panther, gone. Spider-man, gone. Doctor Strange, gone. Cap's sidekicks, gone. All the Guardians except Rocket Raccoon and, arguably, Nebula, gone. Ant-man isn't. Maybe not the Wasp, but I wouldn't bet on that: I fully expect his movie will take place mostly before Av3. (Ditto Captain Marvel.) I half expect her to be sacrificed for plot stakes on his side of things. More than half-expect.
This contributed to the ending feeling especially hollow and incomplete for me. At the meta-textual level, I know there's no way this is going to be permanent; simply because the people whose contracts are running out survived and the new hot moneymakers died. (Admittedly Black Panther has a way forward, since Shuri can be BP now, and there would be an interesting story in his supporting cast dealing with this fallout -- potentially much more interesting than his own first film's story. For the record, a black female associate of mine was not consoled about the concept of Shuri inheriting the kingdom and mantle now.)
Edited to add: amusingly, at imdb the first cast credits feature the survivors first, right down to War Machine. Nebula and Rocket are the exceptions, but Rocket's actor though great isn't playing a character on screen per se, and Nebula is very much a side character.
Meanwhile: so, like, Monique Ganderton (a stunt actress/double who helped coordinate stunts in Av3 and upcoming Av4, as well as helping in Thor 3), and Carrie Coon (best known probably for the Fargo TV series) worked together for the character of Proxima Midnight.
They'd be absolute gold for She-hulk, right? Presumably Carrie would be Jennifer normally, with Monique as the hulk-form?
My original guess for the next movie is they get the time stone back from Thanos, then go back and this time Thor hits him in the head with his super axe instead of the chest and prevents him from killing everyone. Then I realized Dr Strange died, not sure how I missed that, so maybe this doesn't make as much sense.
Quote from: RedArgo on April 30, 2018, 10:06:01 AM
My original guess for the next movie is they get the time stone back from Thanos, then go back and this time Thor hits him in the head with his super axe instead of the chest and prevents him from killing everyone. Then I realized Dr Strange died, not sure how I missed that, so maybe this doesn't make as much sense.
Yeah but Wong isn't. He's still in New York. He stayed at the house.
I was kind of surprised that there wasn't more between Banner and Black Widow than an awkward 'Hello'. My wife would've chewed major ass if I flew to another planet for a couple of years. And didn't call I mean. If I flew to another planet she'd probably celebrate and then throw away all my old clothes.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 30, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
Yeah but Wong isn't. He's still in New York. He stayed at the house.
True, I forgot about him. I don't remember from the Dr Strange movie if he was the only one who could do the time thing or others in his order could too.
Quote from: RedArgo on April 30, 2018, 10:45:24 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 30, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
Yeah but Wong isn't. He's still in New York. He stayed at the house.
True, I forgot about him. I don't remember from the Dr Strange movie if he was the only one who could do the time thing or others in his order could too.
I think others in the order could - however, IIRC there was only Dr Strange and Wong left - the rest all died and they were left to protect the house in New York...iirc.
I suspect Dr. Strange used the Eye to create a time copy of itself, so that there's something still on Titan for Stark (and Nebula) to use. This would go a long way toward explaining how Stark gets back in action, trying to make the Time Gem work.
Heck, that stets up Av4 as being a retroactive fan-salute to the completion of the first 10 years of the MCU, as he bounces around the timeline (maybe with Ant-Man) visiting key scenes from the prior films, and working on setting up better preparation for Thanos' arrival.
(Along the way he can run into Kang the Conquerer, who has connections to the Fantastic Four by being a descendant of Doom, and who would be highly interested not only in acquiring the gauntlet but in undoing the damage to the timestream caused by its usage. Kang could also provide future evidence to Darkseid that his plan sucked after all and made things worse instead of better, whereas if Thanos had been less crazy and/or had had more imagination he could have used the gems to better effect. For bonus points, since the MCU likes to drastically rewrite their villains, Kang could be a future manifestation of the Red Skull! -- now able to seek the soul stone once someone has retrieved it! This gives Thanos a redemption arc, too, since he's a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds. ::) )
I'm thinking for Avengers 4 Nebulla and a re-born Vision should get together and make a whole army of cyborg babies to take on Thanos. They would be his grandkids after all. And who better to :pullhair: than a bunch of unruly grandkids?
Actually, she forgot that in the film Thanos does know about at least one planet where everyone is living a paradisal life (or so he thinks anyway) thanks to his decimation. (Bi-cimation?) Namely Gamora's homeworld.
http://www.didthanoskill.me/ (http://www.didthanoskill.me/)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgrogheads.com%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D22211.0%3Battach%3D12800&hash=8d5fa67032f45874a22cfe45dcc787b9734c12a8)
Can this be used as an excuse to miss work?
Consider; why do I like Infinity War despite its many, many flaws? Why, on the other hand, can I not quite bring myself to like TLJ despite its many, many flaws?
There are times when over-convenient writing doesn't quite matter. I'd argue IWar is just on the edge of that, but safely on this side of the edge.
MauLer (who notably skips much reference to the BP movie in praising Marvel over the past 10 years, for reasons he explains in another video) reminds that's what is worthy in IWar trumps the problems.
Meanwhile, writers for Av4 say that you shouldn't expect the film to simply be about undoing the end of Av3, and that (at least some of) the deaths are going to stick.
They're also staying with their prior line that Av4 isn't IWar 2, and that Av4 is it's own independent film.
I'd say the safe guess is that everyone who got ashed will be coming back (for goodness' sake, both of the only real contenders for the next Captain America got ashed), but that anyone who died before the snap stays dead.
That would be Vision (who was arguably OP anyway) -- but Wanda would come back. In comics canon, the Scarlet Witch is driven insane by grief over death of a loved one and becomes a cosmic-level threat, so that's a potential storyline. (She eliminates most or all mutants, maybe she brings them into the MCU?)
Gamora, the only Guardian to die before the snap.
Loki and Heimdall (and indeed all the other Asgardians on the ship, if Valk and some others didn't escape somehow before the ship detonated).
...I think that's it? Am I missing anyone pre-snap?
Having finally seen this, I will say Marvel finally gave us a great villian.
Quote from: mirth on May 06, 2018, 06:24:58 PM
Having finally seen this, I will say Marvel finally gave us a great villian.
Agreed.
His motivation is somewhat dubious but it is a very pragmatic (and cold blooded) approach to that problem.
Brolin made the character work. He was far more interesting than most of the heroes.
I don't quite care that his motivation makes little sense. After a certain point, crazy / sad / evil does cover bases sufficiently. Being distracted by his ongoing crazy-griefiness even explains (somewhat) his lack of imagination in using the stones when most convenient, why the Reality Stone mostly did illusions, etc.
(Speaking as a writer, I know crazy / evil / sad can be misused for plot convenience, too. That's a fine line, and I'm willing to admit I'm spotting the film some points on this excuse rather than the film itself ESTABLISHING those as in-story excuses for his occasional incompetence. That would have been much better.)
The rationality of his actions made him seem even more sinister than the usual power-mad villains. Plus he was just cool.
Funny that Brolin is playing Thanos AND Cable.
Just saw it a bit ago - finally. The 'I don't feel so good' memes make sense now.
Like some of you I really did not expect that ending, at all. I knew there would be a cliffhanger, I just didn't know it would cliff quite that hard. :o
1.) Be me.
2.) Send out instructions to the internet.
3.) "Brolin in Jonah Hex, but Thanos' lines."
4.) ...?
5.) Profit.
But nobody saw Jonah Hex.
I saw it. Thought I was watching Lone Ranger. :idiot2:
The Russo brothers apparently confirmed a number of offscreen survivors and deaths last night.
The list of who lived and died (without spoiling which yet, and the Russos sometimes call "too spoilery"):
Howard the Duck
Matt Damon's Asgardian thespian (playing Loki in that doofy play)
Jane Foster
Betty Ross
Korg and Meek (the rock guy and the bug guy from Thor3)
Shuri (BP's sister, presumably heir to the Panther title -- she's seen briefly after the "Snappening", but there was clearly an inexplicable lag for dramatic effect so...)
Aunt May
Sif (this one surprised me)
Ned (Leeds? Can't recall -- he's Parker's best friend in school)
AUNT MAY?!?!?
Noooooooooooo
I mean, kill everyone but not her! :)
My daughter posited an idea that everyone that was eliminated was put into the Soul Stone somehow and will return later. I checked the Wiki article for the next Avengers movie and Black Panther is listed as being in it. Guess that means some are making a comeback, somehow.
Here's Jessica Chobits if you want the same info from a cuter host ;)
The interview happened in the HuffPost. Link here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/avengers-infinity-war-directors-confirm-which-characters-died-off-screen_us_5af5f6fee4b032b10bfaa3a0
Quote from: BanzaiCat on May 15, 2018, 08:16:24 AM
I checked the Wiki article for the next Avengers movie and Black Panther is listed as being in it. Guess that means some are making a comeback, somehow.
Could easily mean that Shuri becomes the Black Panther (she did in the comics). The Russo brothers are being very cagey about how Avengers 4 will play out.
http://www.indiewire.com/2018/05/avengers-infinity-war-russo-brothers-confirm-off-screen-deaths-1201964297/
No, it had Chadwick listed as the actor. But who knows...it's Wiki after all. Still, good point.
Yeah I'm thinking some or all of the heroes will make some kind of effort to un-do Thanos' victory from inside the Soul Stone, maybe even Heimdal too. Plus there's probably going to be some kind of 'time rewind' thing to defeat him, maybe all the way back to when Ironman set the nuke into Thanos' world in Avengers 1. Maybe this time Tony stays with it and flies it into Thanos himself sacrificing himself to kill the Big Guy. Who knows?
More details from the Russo Bros. interview(s?):
Topically without spoiling details:
BruceTasha;
The name of Starlord's new ship in IWar (since the "Milano" was thoroughly destroyed in GotG2);
The Xandar battle pre-film;
Cap and Wakanda
Why go Hulk-lite?
Why was Peter's death so drawn-out in-story? (Obviously for dramatic purposes, but there's an in-story explanation, too.)
Where was Sean Gunn's Raglin? (The director's brother was still onset as the physical double for Rocket -- which is weird because he's a normal height person -- but what about his GotG2 character? I'll go ahead and spoil this answer: "He was doing something else." ::) )
That scene with Thanos and Gamora...?
The deleted Guardians scene on Knowhere.
Translating Groot's final line.
Did not like the movie which I saw tonight. I hate alternate universes. We are going to have one (or more egads).
Anyway, I'm expecting to see Captain Marvel (Thanos traditional enemy) come back. They use the time stone thing to reverse time at least to when Thanos snuffed half the world.
And snuffing half the world is so tree-huggy stupid. I'm guessing the remaining half won't breed or use up stuff? So we don't have the exact same problem about 200 years from now (after all, how long does it take the population to double again)?
For that matter, there is no balance in doing so because of all the consequent deaths that will result. (cf the copter crash in the epilogue scene.)
As noted, I'm willing to give a pass on Thanos' rationales because he's a guy who enjoys killing and conquering things who went through a traumatic experience and decided to ideologize his own faults to make himself feel better about it. (I mean in this version of the story.) His plan doesn't have to make sense. But since he's plotted as the protagonist (in order to give his character the gravitas expected from a villain 10 years in the making about whom we know almost nothing when the film starts, so far as the MCU goes), then he doesn't really get challenged on his views by the heroes even when (like Gamora) they have the opportunity.
Which a true protagonist would be challenged about, but then his Villain status would be more readily exposed and it would be harder for the audience to get the weird feeling we're watching his story. The plotting strategy, although audacious (and maybe necessary under the circumstances), is kind of broken.
I admit his goal is better than the one they thought up in the book (he wants to bang lady death???? Really?)
It does have some major holes though.
All in all it's better than the "I'm the bad guy and I want mawr pawah" that most villains have in the MCU.