I guess it is good for history. But are we ready to be adults about this?
https://www.pcgamer.com/germany-lifts-ban-on-swastikas-in-videogames/
https://deutsch.rt.com/newsticker/74256-hakenkreuze-in-computerspielen-in-deutschland-erlaubt/
Meh. Is anyone ready to be an adult about anything these days? Personally this is not a big deal, to me.
I never really liked making swastika mods, so maybe now I won't have to anymore. I don't like having to explain to my girlfriend that I'm obsessed with historical accuracy and that it's just a mod.
Personally I'm all for it. You'll get the assclowns that will try to use / re-adopt / manipulate this but the history needs to be remembered
In the US they are trying to erase all reminders of the Confederacy which I also feel is wrong.
History is history, it should not be erased or retconned but remember, both the good and the ugly.
Dhingis khan killed 30 Million People sometime on cruler way than the nazis. There is an german pop song "Dhing, dhing, dhingiskahn..." Evryone sing and dance to it. Hitler did not kill much more but only showing a sewastika is forbidden. German stupidi ! When a sewastika is forbidden the german song must be also forbidden.
I'm 58 years old, have 2 college degrees, and own over 500 books about the Third Reich and Germany military in World War Two.
What exactly is being accomplished by preventing me from seeing a swastika in a computer game (which I will immediately sidestep by installing a mod)?
It might fill you with an overwhelming desire to annex the Sudetenland, or maybe even that strip of grass between you and your neighbor's driveway.
Just making room for the confederate flag ban that's coming. ::) Two bans would be too confusing. :knuppel2:
Quote from: stolypin on August 11, 2018, 09:26:29 AM
... own over 500 books about the Third Reich and Germany military in World War Two.
I think it's fine.
Also, I'd really like to come visit your library and share some beers! :smitten:
Quote from: jamus34 on August 11, 2018, 09:02:32 AM
History is history, it should not be erased or retconned but remember, both the good and the ugly.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote from: Dammit Carl! on August 11, 2018, 10:51:10 AM
Quote from: jamus34 on August 11, 2018, 09:02:32 AM
History is history, it should not be erased or retconned but remember, both the good and the ugly.
My thoughts exactly.
+1
I find it difficult to believe the Germans did this. They have been so dogmatic about the issue. I understand the ban perhaps as long as the 1970s, but about everyone involved in WW2 is now dead.
This has never been a big issue for me and I've never used the mods to adjust the flags. But I also always thought it was pretty dumb.
Quote from: Micha on August 11, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
Dhingis khan killed 30 Million People sometime on cruler way than the nazis. There is an german pop song "Dhing, dhing, dhingiskahn..." Evryone sing and dance to it. Hitler did not kill much more but only showing a sewastika is forbidden. German stupidi ! When a sewastika is forbidden the german song must be also forbidden.
Let's not trivialize the depth of Nazi cruelty by comparing it to other murderous empires. Germany was the first nation in human history to industrialize genocide and implement a systemic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity. For that, the German atrocities of 20th century are unique and should never be forgotten. Your attitude, inadvertent or not, is the whole reason why a ban on this imagery was deemed logical in the first place...because these crimes become whitewashed, or otherwise mitigated through the passage of time.
In any event, I agree that the ban does not serve any purpose really, but it is critical that we don't throw away common sense too.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 11, 2018, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: Micha on August 11, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
Dhingis khan killed 30 Million People sometime on cruler way than the nazis. There is an german pop song "Dhing, dhing, dhingiskahn..." Evryone sing and dance to it. Hitler did not kill much more but only showing a sewastika is forbidden. German stupidi ! When a sewastika is forbidden the german song must be also forbidden.
Let's not trivialize the depth of Nazi cruelty by comparing it to other murderous empires. Germany was the first nation in human history to industrialize genocide and implement a systemic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity. For that, the German atrocities of 20th century are unique and should never be forgotten. Your attitude, inadvertent or not, is the whole reason why a ban on this imagery was deemed logical in the first place...because these crimes become whitewashed, or otherwise mitigated through the passage of time.
In any event, I agree that the ban does not serve any purpose really, but it is critical that we don't throw away common sense too.
In his 2,400 page "Gulag Archipelago", Alexandr Solzhenitsyn (winner of the Nobel Peace Prize for Literature), clearly demonstrates that the Soviet Union began a "systematic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity" as early as 1918. In fact, one of Lenin's earliest decrees was on the establishment of concentration camps -- through which tens of millions would pass (or perish) over the next 40 years.
Yet I have lots of games that freely display the hammer and sickle with no mod needed.
As Solzhenitsyn comments bitterly: "Hitler's camps made him famous. No one cares about ours at all."
Quote from: stolypin on August 11, 2018, 12:38:05 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 11, 2018, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: Micha on August 11, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
Dhingis khan killed 30 Million People sometime on cruler way than the nazis. There is an german pop song "Dhing, dhing, dhingiskahn..." Evryone sing and dance to it. Hitler did not kill much more but only showing a sewastika is forbidden. German stupidi ! When a sewastika is forbidden the german song must be also forbidden.
Let's not trivialize the depth of Nazi cruelty by comparing it to other murderous empires. Germany was the first nation in human history to industrialize genocide and implement a systemic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity. For that, the German atrocities of 20th century are unique and should never be forgotten. Your attitude, inadvertent or not, is the whole reason why a ban on this imagery was deemed logical in the first place...because these crimes become whitewashed, or otherwise mitigated through the passage of time.
In any event, I agree that the ban does not serve any purpose really, but it is critical that we don't throw away common sense too.
In his 2,400 page "Gulag Archipelago", Alexandr Solzhenitsyn (winner of the Nobel Peace Prize for Literature), clearly demonstrates that the Soviet Union began a "systematic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity" as early as 1918. In fact, one of Lenin's earliest decrees was on the establishment of concentration camps -- through which tens of millions would pass (or perish) over the next 40 years.
Yet I have lots of games that freely display the hammer and sickle with no mod needed.
As Solzhenitsyn comments bitterly: "Hitler's camps made him famous. No one cares about ours at all."
As someone who admittedly possesses "500 books about the Third Reich and Germany (sic) military in World War Two" in his personal library, I'm not surprised that my point would cruise above your head. Thanks for making my point even clearer though. :clap: I'm not sure why some feel the need to argue moral equivalences in order to somehow try to defend the indefensible. :uglystupid2:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 11, 2018, 12:56:02 PM
I'm not sure why some feel the need to argue moral equivalences in order to somehow try to defend the indefensible. :uglystupid2:
Well I for one am pretty certain why people do that, but perhaps this thread should be relocated before taking the discussion further...
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 11, 2018, 12:56:02 PM
Quote from: stolypin on August 11, 2018, 12:38:05 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 11, 2018, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: Micha on August 11, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
Dhingis khan killed 30 Million People sometime on cruler way than the nazis. There is an german pop song "Dhing, dhing, dhingiskahn..." Evryone sing and dance to it. Hitler did not kill much more but only showing a sewastika is forbidden. German stupidi ! When a sewastika is forbidden the german song must be also forbidden.
Let's not trivialize the depth of Nazi cruelty by comparing it to other murderous empires. Germany was the first nation in human history to industrialize genocide and implement a systemic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity. For that, the German atrocities of 20th century are unique and should never be forgotten. Your attitude, inadvertent or not, is the whole reason why a ban on this imagery was deemed logical in the first place...because these crimes become whitewashed, or otherwise mitigated through the passage of time.
In any event, I agree that the ban does not serve any purpose really, but it is critical that we don't throw away common sense too.
In his 2,400 page "Gulag Archipelago", Alexandr Solzhenitsyn (winner of the Nobel Peace Prize for Literature), clearly demonstrates that the Soviet Union began a "systematic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity" as early as 1918. In fact, one of Lenin's earliest decrees was on the establishment of concentration camps -- through which tens of millions would pass (or perish) over the next 40 years.
Yet I have lots of games that freely display the hammer and sickle with no mod needed.
As Solzhenitsyn comments bitterly: "Hitler's camps made him famous. No one cares about ours at all."
As someone who admittedly possesses "500 books about the Third Reich and Germany (sic) military in World War Two" in his personal library, I'm not surprised that my point would cruise above your head. Thanks for making my point even clearer though. :clap: I'm not sure why some feel the need to argue moral equivalences in order to somehow try to defend the indefensible. :uglystupid2:
Citing Solzhenitsyn is akin to "defend[ing] the indefensible"?
On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)
You know what's even more ironic? Large swathes of brainwashed lefties would consider Jarhead to be a Nazi himself. :uglystupid2:
Quote from: Ubercat on August 11, 2018, 02:21:42 PM
On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)
You know what's even more ironic? Large swathes of brainwashed lefties would consider Jarhead to be a Nazi himself. :uglystupid2:
Yup. I've been accused of it. Its almost as comical as Candace Owens being called a white supremacist!
Those brainwashed lefties have never seen JH's warm, cuddly side. Just above the heavy weapons.
Genocide, with whatever tech existed at the time. Has been around since the dawn of time I would say. Does not make any regime that does it in any numbers any less evil than another though, no. Any regime that does it is evil. No matter the scale or the target.
The ww2 German acts of genocide hit very close to home for us in the west though. Because they are so recent and close to our western way of life (how did a western country with western ways turn so bad) and because they were so cold and clinical, as jar said, so industrialised. Very well planned and executed.
I have become so used to the nazi symbol not being in games that I almost feel guilty that they are putting it back in. I don't know whether to feel happy that history is being accurately portrayed or sad that the political symbol of an evil regime is being put back in games.
It's going to feel strange to me as where I am we always got censored games by proxy due to the fact that devs for a lot of games decided to release one version for all that was missing the nazi symbology.
But history is history right? If we want our simulators to reflect what aircraft schemes and livery were realistically we must accept that the nazi parties badge will be on our aircraft in particular. Tanks and soldier uniforms are easier as they were generally not present in your face for heer soldier and tank exteriors.
You would not build a model or make a movie without them. But games somehow are much more personal as you are not watching from the outside. You are the persona playing the person that was there. You are acting and wearing the livery. But in the end it is only re-enactment really.
When I first started playing games as a teen I used to feel a bit of guilt or the forbidden fruit sort of thing when I played the germans. Like a betrayal of my own side. It was of course beaten by intellectual and rational thought. When games became advanced graphically enough and developers international enough (most games initially came from america and then britian iirc) we encountered the swasticka ban. Il2 I think was the first game I ever played that had it. I was a little offended at first that history was being denied, like denying the german side wore nazi symbols. But as I said above I am so used to it now. It's going to be strange really.
I used to LAN with a couple of Polish gamers who live here in AU in the early 2000s iirc. We played il2 sturmovik but when I played with them we could absolutely not play the axis. They would only play the Russians that were the other side in il2 at the time. These days though the one I am still in contact with does not care and actually likes playing the Germans more than anything else. Strange how time and exhaustion from sitting so vehemently on one side eventually weakens ones position on the more silly taboos. Unless one is constantly getting re-enforcement from ones immediate peers.
As far as WW2 games go, I kind of prefer swastikas when I'm playing the good guys as it's fun to role play fighting evil and squash it out. As the Germans, I hate the generic looking black, white, and red flag. The iron cross is probably the best compromise symbol.
Quote from: Ubercat on August 11, 2018, 02:21:42 PM
On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)
People have been marching in the US waving swastikas and have not been "lynched". Quelle surprise - the US seems to have a high tolerance for the "correct" type of totalitarian regime.
Yeah they do. Check out all the hammers and sickles sported by antifa thugs. The only place a swastika can survive is on some idiots wall in a trailer park somewhere.
Quote from: Philippe on August 11, 2018, 08:41:52 AM
I never really liked making swastika mods, so maybe now I won't have to anymore. I don't like having to explain to my girlfriend that I'm obsessed with historical accuracy and that it's just a mod.
It's odd that the ban applied to games but not to movies. I wonder why games get this extra layer of inspection? Is it because they are a new-ish form of media?
Quote from: MengJiao on August 11, 2018, 11:09:09 PM
Is it because they are a new-ish form of media?
exactly
it was always allowed to use swastikas in art and education. it took just so much time for the people, which where manning those USK decision committees, to accept that video-games are a piece of art.
Always living with the angst of hurting feelings and political correctness and triggering a thing we now call 'shitstorm' but in classic media at that times.
it was hard to sell to the public that a pixelated Wolfenstein is art. Now with CoD number N and the public has been growing up with ego-shooters all themself the times had changed, finally
It will not be a total lift of a ban so, just less strict
so if you have let's say a WW II flightsim the symbols will be ok now
if you have a shooter where Allied soldiers shoot at -for whatever reason transformed into zombies horde- Germans, it will be ok too.
Now but if you have a shooter which is let's say themed around the crack down on Warsaw Ghetto Uprising it will get tricky.
Is it just a scenario (scenery/location) of many and the Germans are heavily nerfed while the resistance fighters are buffed it might slip through. But if it is historical correct and you can play the Germans the game will not see the shelves.
But if you could play Ghetto resistance only and it has strong RPG story telling elements (resembling movies based on that historic event), it might be seen as education.
Quote from: Father Ted on August 11, 2018, 08:04:58 PM
Quote from: Ubercat on August 11, 2018, 02:21:42 PM
On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)
People have been marching in the US waving swastikas and have not been "lynched". Quelle surprise - the US seems to have a high tolerance for the "correct" type of totalitarian regime.
I live near Washington DC. Today some Nazis are coming to town to demonstrate. If it wasn't for the *very* heavy police presence protecting the Nazis, I doubt that they would make it out of town alive. In fact, it's going to take a lot of police protection to even make into DC.
Quote from: MengJiao on August 11, 2018, 11:09:09 PM
Quote from: Philippe on August 11, 2018, 08:41:52 AM
I never really liked making swastika mods, so maybe now I won't have to anymore. I don't like having to explain to my girlfriend that I'm obsessed with historical accuracy and that it's just a mod.
It's odd that the ban applied to games but not to movies. I wonder why games get this extra layer of inspection? Is it because they are a new-ish form of media?
Some scale models had the ban too.. maybe it was where the model manufacturer resided that decided if it was banned or not.
I, too, would like to see swastikas in games. It would be a plus for historical accuracy.
Quote from: trailrunner on August 12, 2018, 06:21:29 AM
If it wasn't for the *very* heavy police presence protecting the Nazis, I doubt that they would make it out of town alive. In fact, it's going to take a lot of police protection to even make into DC.
Give me a break. This isn't the Selma to Montgomery march, where the participants actually did have to fear for their lives. Just ask Congressman John Lewis. These Nazis aren't in danger, though they love to play the victims. You may possibly recall that it wasn't a Nazi who was killed at the Charlotte white supremacist rally last year.
I really prefer to keep politics out of this forum, so that's the last I'll say on this. I'm sure my political views are well to the left of many folks here. I appreciate that admirably little of the idiotic political divisiveness that defines much of everything else these days doesn't infect the Grogheads community. And so I generally keep my political views out of things here, knowing that most of the community adheres to that wise rule.
But there's only so much "lefties are idiots and the real intolerant ones" that I can stomach. Some lefties are intolerant, no question. Some have even been known to be idiots ;) But spare me the sympathy and concern for the safety of Nazis whose entire ideology is based on racial superiority and racial hatreds, in a word, intolerance.
Fighting for the Hammer & Sickle has always been close to impossible for me. Communism was the ideology who killed and oppressed more people in the last 150 years than any other. This is why I've always had difficulty playing any WW2 Eastern Front game. I really don't want the commies to win. I don't want the Nazis to be triumphant. Mental contradictions ensue. I've even had people here remark on how much I hate the Commies.
I'm sure others have similar difficulties about other periods of history. If I did not know as much as I do about both the Nazis and Communism it would not bother me so much.
But as Greybriar said, I prefer historical accuracy over historical inaccuracy. So in wargames I prefer accurate flags, uniforms and equipment.
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 12, 2018, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: trailrunner on August 12, 2018, 06:21:29 AM
If it wasn't for the *very* heavy police presence protecting the Nazis, I doubt that they would make it out of town alive. In fact, it's going to take a lot of police protection to even make into DC.
Give me a break. This isn't the Selma to Montgomery march, where the participants actually did have to fear for their lives. Just ask Congressman John Lewis. These Nazis aren't in danger, though they love to play the victims. You may possibly recall that it wasn't a Nazi who was killed at the Charlotte white supremacist rally last year.
I really prefer to keep politics out of this forum, so that's the last I'll say on this. I'm sure my political views are well to the left of many folks here. I appreciate that admirably little of the idiotic political divisiveness that defines much of everything else these days doesn't infect the Grogheads community. And so I generally keep my political views out of things here, knowing that most of the community adheres to that wise rule.
But there's only so much "lefties are idiots and the real intolerant ones" that I can stomach. Some lefties are intolerant, no question. Some have even been known to be idiots ;) But spare me the sympathy and concern for the safety of Nazis whose entire ideology is based on racial superiority and racial hatreds, in a word, intolerance.
I think you misinterpreted the point trailrunner was making. He was responding to another comment that suggested that Americans are tolerant of Nazis or white supremacists, and in response, trailrunner was noting that there is an extreme amount of anti-nazi sentiment in DC...so much so that they will need heavy police protection for their defense. I think you guys are on the same side.
And in fact, there are DHS employees in Portland Oregon who have been repeatedly attacked and threatened by leftist ANTIFA members for weeks while the police -under orders from the city- refuse to respond to 911 calls
There are those who are threatened by others on both sides of the political spectrum.
On topic, I'm glad to see the ban on the symbol removed to some extent. It always seemed ridiculous to me that one would be less inclined to engage in national socialism simply because you can't use a symbol.
Admittedly however, I'm not completely sure as to the purpose of the ban. I get banning a national socialist party but not a symbol when used for historical purposes.
I'm pretty certain that no one on this forum has "sympathy and concern for the safety" of white supremacists. Although, if we were to follow the lefts vastly drifted definition of white supremacy, we should be because it includes the great majority of western civilization.
Quote from: Ubercat on August 12, 2018, 10:45:43 AM
I'm pretty certain that no one on this forum has "sympathy and concern for the safety" of white supremacists. Although, if we were to follow the lefts vastly drifted definition of white supremacy, we should be because it includes the great majority of western civilization.
Yes...ANTIFA and their ilk labeling anyone who isn't behind their brand of socialism a "fascist" or Nazi does as much as anything to dilute what the Nazis really were.
never mind
Shouldn't this be moved to the Religion/Politics/Flame Wars section?
If I misinterpreted trailrunner's point, I apologize. But it did appear to me that he was saying that the Neo-Nazis demonstrating in DC have genuine reason to fear for their safety and even lives -- as though they're the ones who need to be protected from mindless violence and intolerance, rather than being the ones promulgating the same. I strongly dispute that notion, as I do other caricatures of the activist political Left as being essentially little better than a mob of rabid, Leninist-spouting Antifa goons.
Anyway, I really have said my piece and won't comment on this further. I've broken my own rule about not injecting politics into the Grogheads forums -- or more accurately, it's not my own rule, but seems to be an unspoken Grogheads rule that this community does an excellent job of following, regardless of one's Left- or Right-leaning beliefs.
We can disagree without being disagreeable! Now back to less controversial topics -- like Battlefront's plans for CM Shock Force 2. ;)
Sandman,
I realize this might tank the thread to R&P, and you've said your piece, but I genuinely don't understand your point.
"the Neo-Nazis demonstrating in DC have genuine reason to fear for their safety and even lives -- as though they're the ones who need to be protected from mindless violence and intolerance, rather than being the ones promulgating the same. "
Both of those statements in the quote are true. The neo-Nazis are hateful people, yet at the same time, the general public abhors them and their message so much that they actually do require protection to keep from being harmed while exercising their right to protest.
I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing.
Everyone is being respectful, and so long as the thread remains tangentially related to the subject of swastikas in games, I don't see any overly compelling reason to move the post to RPFW.
Thanks to everyone for debating a controversial and easily inflammable topic in a rational and courteous manner.
Hey toonces -- I know your question is a sincere one -- but I think it's best if I stick to my promise to keep my yap shut further on the topic of Neo-Nazis / Antifa in DC.
Regarding the swastikas thing -- I actually think the lifting of the ban in video games is the right call, perhaps even an overdue one. On the one hand, I understand why the Federal Rep. of Germany banned Nazi symbols and think that was overall the correct decision at the time. I wouldn't want to see that kind of suppression of freedom of speech in the USA, but I think Germany's situation is unique and think that Germany has a special obligation to prevent the symbols/regalia of the 3rd Reich from ever becoming normalized in German political life again. In general I think the Germans -- post 1968 at least -- have done a very admirable job of reckoning in honest, open, public fashion with the evils of Nazism and refusing to ever whitewash that history.
That said, I can't see what real use was served by the banning of Nazi symbols in games that are clearly meant to represent the the historical period of WW2. That to me does seem to represent a misguided attempt to whitewash history. I guess the distinction I would want to make is between using the swastika in present-day political discourse (I'd say no), and using it in historical representations of the period (I'd say yes). I would not want to see AfD or other far-right parties in Germany resurrect the swastika as a political symbol. But I have no problem whatsoever in seeing the swastika used in video games like Hearts of Iron or you name it.
Anyway, my $0.02 on the matter...
Quote from: sandman2575 on August 12, 2018, 03:25:14 PM
I would not want to see AfD or other far-right parties in Germany resurrect the swastika as a political symbol. ...
Have you seen any indication that the AfD has any fascist leanings? AFAICT AfD is simply concerned with protecting German culture and heritage from the foreign invaders brought in by Merkel's open border unlimited immigration policies. That's a threat created by the EU to all of western Europe, not just Germany.
Quote from: Ubercat on August 12, 2018, 08:28:47 PM
AFAICT AfD is simply concerned with protecting German culture and heritage from the foreign invaders brought in by Merkel's open border unlimited immigration policies. That's a threat created by the EU to all of western Europe, not just Germany.
This O0
the AfD, with about 6 Mio voters in last election for the Bundestag, is as far right as the Bavarian CSU always was since 1945
(or promised to be in the last years, but got often sacked by Merkel's overruling as chancellor in the cabinet, and so even in Bavaria, where election are due in October! the AfD will be taken voters away from the CSU)
Outside of Bavaria you have no choice then to vote AfD, if you liked the former politics of Kohl and Straus
(since Merkel had steered the CDU so far to the green-left, that she actually had split the CDU. Most of the older AfD leading politicians have a long history in the CDU)
before Brant, et alii, shows up to spit his blown out of proportion vitriol with some hasty grabbed "journalist personal comments disguised as serious"-articles from the internet about the AfD ...
I have to admit that in Saxony and Thuringia, some local state AFD politicians like to shock the media regularly with harsh patriotic speeches and snarl when addressing their very own crowd at a local party rally event.
Often it seems with calculating in the shitstorm for publicity gain, when the Left surly release a storm with the help of their friendly media, after picking on a singled out phrase in those speeches.
young upcoming AfD politicians in the West so, who overstretched and copy cat that 'shock-method' to gain personal publicity, got kicked out of the AfD for good.
the AFD party logo shown in the pic below is far more shocking then a swastica, its an "erected penis". :o No, i am joking its a kind of upward arrow crossed with a smile ^-^
C:-) C:-) C:-) MOD HAT ON C:-) C:-) C:-)
You guys would do well to heed Jarhead's note above.
within hours of his note about how civil and game-focused this has remained it immediately went right back to politics-without-discussing-the-game
Keep your rounds within the range fans, or this topic will get shut down.
<:-) PARTY HAT BACK ON <:-)
WTF is Craig? :2funny:
When it comes to a game, there's something diluted about shooting pixellated bad guys sporting the Kaiser's iron cross rather than a swastika. The swastika is, of course, a symbol of evil and oppression, of dark power and overwhelming destruction. When you put a swastika as a symbol of the enemies you're fighting, there's something more feral about doing so. It's intangible, but it's there. Fighting Germans with the WWI flag/Iron Cross isn't nearly as impactful as fighting those sporting swastikas, if that makes sense.
Quote from: BanzaiCat on August 13, 2018, 07:30:42 AM
When it comes to a game, there's something diluted about shooting pixellated bad guys sporting the Kaiser's iron cross rather than a swastika. The swastika is, of course, a symbol of evil and oppression, of dark power and overwhelming destruction. When you put a swastika as a symbol of the enemies you're fighting, there's something more feral about doing so. It's intangible, but it's there. Fighting Germans with the WWI flag/Iron Cross isn't nearly as impactful as fighting those sporting swastikas, if that makes sense.
If I remember correctly I read somewhere that Germany is the most played country in HOI4. The historical German flag mod is in the top 10 of most downloaded mods.
So it looks like most people like to play for rather than against the swastika, trying to proof that Germany could have won the war without that lunatic running the shots.
TBH I never subscribed to the "historical accuracy" argument when it came to wanting the swastika in games before the ban was lifted. I've also never felt it's that credible an argument to begin with.
The history of WW2 is of course very much tied to Hitler as a person, the Nazi party that grew around him and the various horrible things they ended up doing, but this only really matters within the context of historical study and as cautionary tales as to why we must always stand against extreme right-wing politics.
When it comes to games, ESPECIALLY wargames, there is practically zero about the swastika or what it represents that is relevant. Prominent Nazis made policy, but those policies are represented in games regardless of whether the swastika is present or not. Some of the more horrific crimes are usually side-stepped unless it's a more narrative driven (typically non-wargame) experience designed to evoke an emotional response, and again these games can do it quite well without needing the Swastika present. The swastika doesn't make the German military any more or less German, doesn't make their various operational capabilities or plans any more or less good (or bad, depending on battle). The AI won't behave any differently if a Swastika is present or not.
Banzai's point is interesting from an immersion perspective, but I've enjoyed every WW2 game I've every played and I've never felt the need for the Swastika to be implemented as a feature. I've never felt my experience would've been improved with the symbols presence, at any rate.
Quote from: Pete Dero on August 13, 2018, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: BanzaiCat on August 13, 2018, 07:30:42 AM
When it comes to a game, there's something diluted about shooting pixellated bad guys sporting the Kaiser's iron cross rather than a swastika. The swastika is, of course, a symbol of evil and oppression, of dark power and overwhelming destruction. When you put a swastika as a symbol of the enemies you're fighting, there's something more feral about doing so. It's intangible, but it's there. Fighting Germans with the WWI flag/Iron Cross isn't nearly as impactful as fighting those sporting swastikas, if that makes sense.
If I remember correctly I read somewhere that Germany is the most played country in HOI4. The historical German flag mod is in the top 10 of most downloaded mods.
So it looks like most people like to play for rather than against the swastika, trying to proof that Germany could have won the war without that lunatic running the shots.
Or just because they had such cool kit. That's why I play them. Especially if my other option is the Brits >:D
Quote from: WargamerJoe on August 13, 2018, 08:12:17 AM
The history of WW2 is of course very much tied to Hitler as a person, the Nazi party that grew around him and the various horrible things they ended up doing, but this only really matters within the context of historical study and as cautionary tales as to why we must always stand against extreme right-wing politics.
Fixed that for you. Certainly you meant to say, we must always stand against extreme politics...no matter whether it originates from the right, or the left...yes?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 13, 2018, 08:24:47 AM
Quote from: Pete Dero on August 13, 2018, 08:02:25 AM
Quote from: BanzaiCat on August 13, 2018, 07:30:42 AM
When it comes to a game, there's something diluted about shooting pixellated bad guys sporting the Kaiser's iron cross rather than a swastika. The swastika is, of course, a symbol of evil and oppression, of dark power and overwhelming destruction. When you put a swastika as a symbol of the enemies you're fighting, there's something more feral about doing so. It's intangible, but it's there. Fighting Germans with the WWI flag/Iron Cross isn't nearly as impactful as fighting those sporting swastikas, if that makes sense.
If I remember correctly I read somewhere that Germany is the most played country in HOI4. The historical German flag mod is in the top 10 of most downloaded mods.
So it looks like most people like to play for rather than against the swastika, trying to proof that Germany could have won the war without that lunatic running the shots.
Or just because they had such cool kit. That's why I play them. Especially if my other option is the Brits >:D
That's because of British flair : 'No need to rush chaps, 10mph is fast enough for our tanks'.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 13, 2018, 08:29:17 AM
Quote from: WargamerJoe on August 13, 2018, 08:12:17 AM
The history of WW2 is of course very much tied to Hitler as a person, the Nazi party that grew around him and the various horrible things they ended up doing, but this only really matters within the context of historical study and as cautionary tales as to why we must always stand against extreme right-wing politics.
Fixed that for you. Certainly you meant to say, we must always stand against extreme politics...no matter whether it originates from the right, or the left...yes?
Yes sorry, extreme politics in general are to be resisted, but the Swastika is a symbol used by the right, and so I only mentioned the right as I was writing. You know how it is when you're following a specific train of thought.
Condemning Nazis or Commies feels like hypocrisy. We're much better at killing than they were, we turn it into a medical procedure and even charge for it. :-"
GRENADE!!!
Wow...buzz kill man...total buzz kill