As some of you have read in the FRIDAY! thread, I randomly decided to reload the old Theatre of War games and so far I'm having a really great time with Kursk. Its still very challenging in in some scenarios depending on objective, terrain and OOB, but overall the challenge seems more credible than I remember.
In any event...some screenshots from a quick mission I generated. German assault of UK position. Both forces have a mix of armor and infantry.
German force advancing to contact
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40031285_10205113366109967_4291074612520812544_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=ae4264da0ed00a7decbcd5ddd27655ee&oe=5C0798C5)
Taking the hill
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40066134_10205113365829960_6877819967635456000_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d1571e246b48df6d0f5a1e492dd28c16&oe=5C384794)
Probing a defensive position
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39974426_10205113365749958_911557279013142528_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=0042a805e8b800a737f3eb05c6e394e9&oe=5C31081D)
Contact...Brits are already feeling pressure from heavy German tanks
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40089834_10205113366589979_2511469911449010176_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=8162f75d4ffe422cd3afa32fd0f112ed&oe=5BEDA763)
Destroyed British tanks as German artillery begins to fall
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40004159_10205113366789984_7540512805565235200_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a812fb394c5c8f7cdcab55d6df1b6490&oe=5BEED598)
Generous bombardment
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39990253_10205113367029990_5506241772478529536_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=55149146a7f231bde5668fcd63a2e195&oe=5BFBA134)
Lighter German vehicles holding back
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40096944_10205113367510002_2088089563170865152_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=dff7abf73d91e8bac5601de7c8a3fc27&oe=5C03F17C)
German infantry pushing in
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40007293_10205113367910012_6380361818732232704_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=06469a3377da3116a0c83f7030bba179&oe=5C3652CA)
Crossing the main road through map
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40053812_10205113367710007_8626600371323666432_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=02a7aba8039de0f6748bacab2d78c728&oe=5BED389F)
Occupying main defensive position under fire
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40075762_10205113368230020_4156535938794651648_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=406487c8ffa43680501f90a1f527bec5&oe=5BFBD421)
Advancing through field
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40086260_10205113368430025_4228469580076417024_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=fea468889e414288590af078042aa221&oe=5C05BBBF)
Most significant loss occurred right after victory was achieved. Brits had some fight left!
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40102941_10205113368710032_7201563117665386496_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=7ded6f38f1ee5403825f43b6f3a7a15a&oe=5C38F7FA)
Anything that ToW does much better than Graviteam? Or more of a personal preference?
Wait, is this from ToW3 or 1 or what?
(I'm just ignorant of why British units are found in a Kursk game, apparently?)
I played ToW a lot for a year or so and liked it. But it wasn't supported any more and had some limitations. I actually played Graviteam a lot after that. But had a fun time playing ToW.
The big thing on Graviteam is the op layer and, what I think is a more realistic approach to C&C.
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 25, 2018, 10:53:43 AM
Wait, is this from ToW3 or 1 or what?
(I'm just ignorant of why British units are found in a Kursk game, apparently?)
Its the DLC for Kursk...Battle of Caen. Includes the British OOB.
Quote from: mikeck on August 25, 2018, 10:53:13 AM
Anything that ToW does much better than Graviteam? Or more of a personal preference?
I think Graviteam has an overall superior system, but ToW has a more traditional UI, so it may appeal to some who just can't get over that Graviteam hump. I think they compare well though in terms of how and what they model...scale, ballistics, individual units, etc.
Okay, so it's ToW2 + DLC.
As it happens, I have all the ToW games except ToW3. I should revisit my sunk costs!
IIRC, ToW's biggest issue for me was its individual soldier control. You had to give orders to individuals. You could group them, but they had no ability to give good group orders. There was a huge amount of micro. Of course, this was 10 years agoand I could be thinking of something else.
I wish Battlefront would adopt Graviteam's strategic layer for Combat Mission. I think it would be an awesome collaboration, but sadly doubt it will happen. Still, I live in hope.... :dreamer:
Quote from: RyanE on August 25, 2018, 11:52:29 AM
IIRC, ToW's biggest issue for me was its individual soldier control. You had to give orders to individuals. You could group them, but they had no ability to give good group orders. There was a huge amount of micro. Of course, this was 10 years agoand I could be thinking of something else.
That sounds more like Men of War.
I found ToW interesting but also frustrating as hell. I think the only campaign I did reasonably well in was as the Brits in Caen. I just did what they did and loaded up on 25 lber arty and sat back and shelled every building or clump of shrubbery I saw before moving up. Kursk and N. Africa kicked my ass. I think it's because the game models counter-attacks in a more believable manner than most. Your troops are scattered, ground up, low on ammo and morale after winning a battle but then the enemy counter-attacks and it's brutal!.
I liked the campaign strat layer that tow Korea added. There was a Modder in the bfc forums who was working on adding all the tow content into tow Korea, but it never got completed.
North Africa...
Tiger Platoon. Mission is to serve as a rearguard while lighter forces reposition
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40051363_10205114968550027_3033038576527867904_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=c9a3bd9c6d001aacd4880ee207593397&oe=5BF8F613)
Mounting up
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40039571_10205114968870035_9165360875660378112_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=939d450d6ef3fa34a6c74eb254ddd4c7&oe=5BED2B49)
Americans advancing
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40143662_10205114968750032_2960671710484889600_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=dad167155205553af972e031c8940738&oe=5BEFA4CE)
Tigers engaging at long range
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40049186_10205114969390048_458057222736314368_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=eb7c8429ac0b285c2d706dc80eb1ed6a&oe=5C395E83)
Shermans don't stand much of a chance
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40178329_10205114969550052_8009555910399623168_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=f16ffb9cf60f0ba492e817e7162c8653&oe=5BF7AAFD)
Crews bailing
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40040329_10205114969630054_4808999285611823104_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=5a81443945452cf341c8f23a2bbe739e&oe=5BF3F3AC)
RIP
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39982819_10205114970070065_4077444592780181504_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=880c0e1ba57583256c17924fc7813533&oe=5BF91A2D)
Futility
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40058959_10205114970270070_8878596397616594944_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=cea531486cf9e7494fd04df768865948&oe=5C02C882)
Bailing
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40197105_10205114970470075_6462517443523772416_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=726a0db84107d59914b4d391af878270&oe=5BF0D7C6)
Air support!
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40043892_10205114970910086_8536374580292354048_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=eb37b0f10fc222afa992fcc0b566567a&oe=5C045698)
Only loss in the battle. 3 crew members killed
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40062153_10205114971110091_5438323251308658688_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=959859ee25cc9a447a0b50f37496bcd0&oe=5C36A408)
Unexpected push on the right flank
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40139575_10205114971270095_1062576339254509568_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9d2f0e9f536650d530d78f788795250f&oe=5BF24CC6)
Large American force, but very green and inexperienced
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40091065_10205114971510101_1609472452247683072_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b48a6ead7e07ae62ade2df2ffb288b5&oe=5BF489B7)
Hard lessons
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40058460_10205114972030114_7127675412292829184_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=d562f2d3e1164e05e57a5ed7eff5d98f&oe=5BF9C290)
German forces successfully regrouped
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40042900_10205114971870110_6075857480783495168_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=14be1096010547392fc2a25703278e3d&oe=5C39CC03)
Until next time
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39891580_10205114972190118_1557997492543422464_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9a8b1a9f3d544a0d9f656a02613902fa&oe=5BF1DDFB)
That tiger food looked sharp as hell (pardon the mixed metaphors).
Are you playing with any mods?
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 25, 2018, 08:17:32 PM
That tiger food looked sharp as hell (pardon the mixed metaphors).
Are you playing with any mods?
Nope. All vanilla.
Still looks great. As I recall I finished the desert one. Loved that version. How does the Russian front one run now? It used to have the most horrible frame rate and memory leaks back in the day.
As I recall you double clicked a leader to grab all infantry in the squad or bounding boxed people.
P.S. Men of War 2 is also a double click of leader to move the whole squad or bounding box. Men of War 1 on the other hand was ridiculously hard to gather or regroup your men in a tight situation.
I always wished I could take ToW2's terrific visuals and merge them with Combat Missionx2. It's still a beautiful looking game all these years on.
My main frustration with ToW was the lack of refined controls and commands you can give your units. And as others have said, managing infantry is extremely frustrating. They die like ants if you don't carefully micro them. But in general the UI always seemed pretty clumsy to me. It's clearer than Graviteam's, no question, but it doesn't give you anything like the flexibility and coordination of units that Grav. gives you.
One of the major shortcomings of ToW2 is the pretty terrible sound effects -- very anemic and not very immersive at all. It's a shame that a game that has such amazing visuals has such crappy sound.
Though one more positive note -- I always loved that ToW2 made the M3 Lee available. I have a fascination with hideous WW2 tanks, the Grant and Churchill probably leading the pack...
I found the infantry the biggest weakness, very difficult to manage them successfully through a game, they just did silly things under AI control. That said it was a great game for the graphics & the fairly intuitive interface.
What I liked most about it however was modelling of the early conflicts (France/Poland) and allowing you to use early war tanks - Char B's & Panzer 2's etc... much more fun than slogging it out with Tigers at 2000 yards IMO, and far more imaginative & interesting than yet another Normandy or Bulge game (mega-yawn).
Hats off to JH for reminding me I have this - may dust it off & give it a shot, with my more up to date PC & GPU it should run like a dream.
I actually do not mind the combat mission graphics these days. I appreciate their crispness. Some of the more complex games forget that we do not want to strain our eyes to see things. Especially in real time.
I really like CM's graphics with some of the mods that enhance them. Very nice.
I ended up playing these games for the better part of the weekend. I love setting up company or battalion size assault missions with the mission generator. For some reason, the series feels so much more playable and enjoyable then it did back in their day. The campaign missions are still very difficult though. For instance, the first mission of the German campaign in Kursk. Wow. Can't crack through that soviet defense, but otherwise, the OOBs, the maps, the combat experience, etc. it all holds up very well. In a lot of ways, I feel like ToW was the precursor to Graviteam Tactics. Something about the experience of each series feels similar and the unit modeling seems familiar too.
Anyway, I ended up reinstalling the entire series. The original ToW is a little rough. I had to change my display settings to get it to run properly and it still seems to chug a little, even on my modern super rig. Every other game in the series runs great though.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 27, 2018, 06:28:22 AM
The original ToW is a little rough. I had to change my display settings to get it to run properly and it still seems to chug a little, even on my modern super rig. Every other game in the series runs great though.
This is pretty much why I had to drop the first game and never bothered continuing on. (That and the original release was an ungodly nest of bugs.)
But I'm seriously considering reinstalling the Steam versions which I picked up on a deep-discount sale some years ago when I saw they had migrated over. Come to think of it, I planned on doing that this weekend and totally forgot somehow...
Quote from: JasonPratt on August 27, 2018, 07:48:29 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on August 27, 2018, 06:28:22 AM
The original ToW is a little rough. I had to change my display settings to get it to run properly and it still seems to chug a little, even on my modern super rig. Every other game in the series runs great though.
This is pretty much why I had to drop the first game and never bothered continuing on. (That and the original release was an ungodly nest of bugs.)
But I'm seriously considering reinstalling the Steam versions which I picked up on a deep-discount sale some years ago when I saw they had migrated over. Come to think of it, I planned on doing that this weekend and totally forgot somehow...
Totally worth a second a look. The steam version of the original ToW comes with a major overhaul mod that adds a lot of vehicles, units and missions...the JSH mod. I think installation is optional, but I elected to go with it. Its been so long since I've played the game though its impossible to tell just from playing what is actually new or different in the modded experience.
I tried to go back to this a couple of years ago. The campaign was brutal and seemed to be extremely, overly harsh on infantry.
Or I was just shit (most likely) 😁
But on the strength of this, perhaps I'll go back. I do recall loving how Arbor was portrayed
As phantom mentioned above, I did like the first one due to it was early war, you had to be careful with your flimsy tanks. I might have to buy to again. I can't find my original copy, think it was via CD.