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http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/10/us/marines-nazi-symbol/index.html?hpt=hp_c3
Really???!!! Common sense???!!! Hello???!!!
Quote"Racist and anti-Semitic symbols have absolutely no place alongside the men and women of America's armed forces," Little said in a statement.
Then the Marine Corps Commandant, Gen. James Amos, weighed in, apologizing to "all offended by this regrettable incident."
"I want to be clear that the Marine Corps unequivocally does not condone the use of any such symbols to represent our units or Marines," Amos said.
Marine Corps Scout Snipers from the 1st Reconnaissance Battalion are seen in the photo standing and kneeling with their sniper rifles in front of a blue flag with white Nazi "SS" runes. The picture was taken in 2010 in Afghanistan and the photo's description says the "SS" flag had been "adopted and used by the Marines in reference to Scout Sniper."
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation was alerted to the photo by Marines who expressed their concern, said group founder Mikey Weinstein. MRFF then distributed it to news organizations.
The Marine Corps said it became aware of the photo last November and the local command investigated, but found it not to be racially motivated, according to a statement released by a Marine Corps spokesman, Lt. Col. Stewart Upton.
The unit's commander decided not to proceed with disciplinary action, it said, but all Marines in the unit were reminded that such behavior will not be tolerated and any further display could result in punishment.
I think we're seeing the fading of memory.
I don't think most young kids look at World War II like we do. I strongly suspect that these guys think (thought) of the SS as an elite German unit. No more, no less.
They're wrong, of course, but I think that's what we're seeing here.
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Okult13 over at wargamer has actually made that photograph his signature...the guy is a total Nazi.
Well, I could always be wrong.
If Okult - or any other neonazi - shows up here and starts foaming at the mouth it'll be a race to see who tosses him out the door faster.
Usually I'm not one to get overly hung up on symbols (for example I don't freak out if a Swastika appears on a cardboard game counter), but seeing SS lightning bolts under the American flag with Marines to either side is pretty damned offensive. If the guys in the photo didn't get it, they need to be educated pronto. And if kids in this country are growing up thinking that the SS were an elite branch like SEALs or Green Berets, then we are seriously dropping the ball in our educational system.
Quote from: mirth on February 10, 2012, 10:16:22 PM
And if kids in this country are growing up thinking that the SS were an elite branch like SEALs or Green Berets, then we are seriously dropping the ball in our educational system.
I don't have any solid evidence, but this is what my gut tells me.
I could be wrong. I sometimes am.
QuoteOkult13 over at wargamer has actually made that photograph his signature...the guy is a total Nazi.
WTF!?! That's all I have to say about that.
QuoteAnd if kids in this country are growing up thinking that the SS were an elite branch like SEALs or Green Berets, then we are seriously dropping the ball in our educational system.
Having educated the youth of the country, I have to agree with LB's assessment. A lot of kids out of high school, if not properly corrected, have the impression that the SS were the equivalent of special forces - or "stormtroopers" if you will. That may be all they know about German forces during WWII. I wish I could say that the Holocaust was something they readily could identify and understand what it was and who perpetrated it - many can, but many cannot.
I suppose it is accurate to say that the SS were a "special" type of force, but what they were meant for was strictly not something that should ever be honored.
That picture is awful. Worse, it reinforces how disconnected we are from history. As a historian, that frightens me.
Quote from: LongBlade on February 10, 2012, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: mirth on February 10, 2012, 10:16:22 PM
And if kids in this country are growing up thinking that the SS were an elite branch like SEALs or Green Berets, then we are seriously dropping the ball in our educational system.
I don't have any solid evidence, but this is what my gut tells me.
I could be wrong. I sometimes am.
You're probably right, LB about how kids perceive it these days. If so, it's something that we need to address within our educational system and society.
This is not meant to be an excuse nor am I saying the 'SS' symbol is okay, this is just a Smuck public service announcement.
The picture with the flag has the school trained Scout Snipers.
The Scout Sniper 'SS' has been used since the early 80's, this I know from personal experience. To the best of my recollection it was taken from the group KISS, Love gun was the song that was a 'favorite' of the school trained community. The STA Platoon's song was from The Clash, Should I stay or should I go.
Hidden messages with the 'SS' symbol, could be but after 30 some odd years?
The other thing that the Snipers get are tattoos, two of which raise eyebrows; the meat tag, and the SS. I remember having to tell one of our Marines in Spain to keep his tats covered while attending a NATO school....Every Sniper has his Hogs Tooth that he is awarded when he completes school....
I never got the SS tattoo but I do have the meat tag and I have no idea where my hog's tooth is.
It may stand for 'Scout Snipers' and come from the KISS logo, but we're talking about an SS flag being displayed right under a US flag by our guys. I don't think the guys in the photo were really looking to show admiration for the SS, but even it comes out of ignorance it still needs to be addressed.
I'll give it to you Smuck, the KISS logo does look like Sig runes...
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But that's still a bit on the edge to have a flag like that.
Like I said guys....it was a Smuck public service announcement. Not excusing it.....we didn't use that symbol in my Platoon.
btw,
what's offending about a meat tag tattoo? ...its a picture of your own dog tag / ID, right ?
well, in the context of this thread, Waffen SS was known to have a blood type tattoo on the left inner-arm above the elbow so...
(the snipers should put a smaller text under the 'KISS runes' printing 'scout snipers' or 'class y of 20xx' to avoid most of the PC fire raining down on them...)
Quote from: LongBlade on February 10, 2012, 09:40:10 PM
Well, I could always be wrong.
If Okult - or any other neonazi - shows up here and starts foaming at the mouth it'll be a race to see who tosses him out the door faster.
I like to think that you are occassionally misinformed, but never wrong! ::) :P
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 10, 2012, 10:55:04 PM
I'll give it to you Smuck, the KISS logo does look like Sig runes...
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But that's still a bit on the edge to have a flag like that.
Weren't the founding guys in Kiss all, or mostly Jewish? Am I making too big a deal over all of this?
the swiss military has a similiar problem, i just don't get it why they never changed that stuff.
if you're sick during service they will put you into a romm or facility marked as KZ... Krankenzimmer
SS and SA are also used but i think to remember in a lot less prominent way. to have facilities marked with those to huge letters is just wrong. also because in everyday swiss german you won't say the full word for concentration camps, you just call it KZ...
I'm hoping that this whole thing was done out of ignorance, as at least it's slightly less disturbing than the possibility that they did so deliberately...but only slightly. To borrow Monty's words, it shows a real disconnect with history, and that scares me a lot.
Quote from: Martok on February 11, 2012, 12:33:16 PM
I'm hoping that this whole thing was done out of ignorance, as at least it's slightly less disturbing than the possibility that they did so deliberately...but only slightly. To borrow Monty's words, it shows a real disconnect with history, and that scares me a lot.
There's another thing in here that should be considered: the Nazis hijacked a number of symbols.
At what point is it legitimate to demand them back?
As Smuck points out, the s-runes used by KISS were appropriated by Marine snipers 30 years ago. I don't think there's anything wrong with demanding that the Nazis cannot have a lock on things that never originated from them.
However, that raises another problem: faded memories. It's all well and good to give the swastika back to the Buddhists, but will the symbol actually mean the same thing or will the public at large still interpret it has a symbol of horror and atrocity? And if they see it return to its original roots, what happens when some idiot tries to emulate it as a neo-nazi and will we recognize it as such?
I don't have any answers here, just questions.
IIRC, the Sig runes had no modern meaning before the SS.
The swastika is another matter. It meant many things, mostly beneficial. This is why the building for the Heath program at Indiana University, built before the war, has swastikas in all of its staircases (along with many other symbols).
As to KISS, I do think at least one was of Jewish descent, maybe even Simmons. But it would be difficult to argue that their aesthetic wasn't, in part, influenced by the military uniforms of the early 20th century, mixed with medieval armor. A lot of punk and "hard" rock in the 80s had decidedly pseudo-fascist, sado-masochistic, militant, undertones.
Gene Simmons is jewish, that is correct.
So is Paul Stanley.
Good grief! That photo is certainly disturbing, to say the least. :-\
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 11, 2012, 08:55:07 PM
Good grief! That photo is certainly disturbing, to say the least. :-\
So you've seen Paul Stanley without his wig??
Quote from: Centurion40 on February 11, 2012, 09:10:43 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 11, 2012, 08:55:07 PM
Good grief! That photo is certainly disturbing, to say the least. :-\
So you've seen Paul Stanley without his wig??
Any photo of KISS out of the makeup is fairly terrifying, actually.
Paul Stanley without his wig is terrifying, that is correct :)
I don't believe there is anything anti-semitic about the use of the SS symbol by the scout snipers. That, however, does not make it right. They need to be educated and hopefully then, they will be able to use better judgment.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 12, 2012, 08:18:34 PM
I don't believe there is anything anti-semitic about the use of the SS symbol by the scout snipers. That, however, does not make it right. They need to be educated and hopefully then, they will be able to use better judgment.
You actually make a very good point here. People tend to see any symbol that is similar to one used by the Nazis or their military and say "Anti-Semitic," although that might not be the intent of the people using the symbol. Be it KISS or the Scout Snipers, the use of the sig runes doesn't have to equate to being against Jews (any more than playing the Axis powers in a wargame).
But yes, education is probably the best course of action.
I don't want to throw gasoline on a dying fire. But IMHO it doesn't matter what the Scout Snipers were trying to say by using the symbols. The symbols themselves have been hijacked by anti semites. Whether they should know that or not isn't really my place to say.
Quote from: Gusington on February 13, 2012, 10:42:53 AM
I don't want to throw gasoline on a dying fire.
Says the guy with a flaming hoop in his avatar.
I like the flaming hoops. The commies, not so much.
How about flaming commies?
Quote from: Centurion40 on February 13, 2012, 03:17:07 PM
How about flaming commies?
Now we're talking'!
The burning kind I mean. Not pink tutus. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Flaming commies? Is that like Stalin in drag?
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 13, 2012, 05:16:42 PM
Flaming commies? Is that like Stalin in drag?
I think its just another name for a Molotov Cocktail.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 13, 2012, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 13, 2012, 05:16:42 PM
Flaming commies? Is that like Stalin in drag?
I think its just another name for a Molotov Cocktail.
That works as long as the commies are flaming.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 12, 2012, 11:19:24 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 12, 2012, 08:18:34 PM
I don't believe there is anything anti-semitic about the use of the SS symbol by the scout snipers. That, however, does not make it right. They need to be educated and hopefully then, they will be able to use better judgment.
You actually make a very good point here. People tend to see any symbol that is similar to one used by the Nazis or their military and say "Anti-Semitic," although that might not be the intent of the people using the symbol. Be it KISS or the Scout Snipers, the use of the sig runes doesn't have to equate to being against Jews (any more than playing the Axis powers in a wargame).
But yes, education is probably the best course of action.
Actually, the SS form of the Sigil (or Sowilo as it was known in the Elder Futhark)
is a racist and Nationalist symbol.
The oldest form of the original rune actually looks like a 'W' turned onto it's left side.The set of two diagonal bars touching
with little or no crossbar was the invention of 19th century Antisemitic mystics who were advocating for German nationalism
and racial purity. Changing the name of the rune from 'Sigil' (sun) to 'Sig' (triumph/victory) was also their idea.
One of the most prominent of them was Guido Von List who re-imagined the Younger Futhark (or Futhork) into what he called the
'Armanen Futharkh' and he included a number of 19th century occult meanings to the various runes. His ideas were picked up by
a Nazi mystic who mentored Himmler himself.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 10, 2012, 09:32:24 PM
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Okult13 over at wargamer has actually made that photograph his signature...the guy is a total Nazi.
Nice, and no i am not (i should report you to a mod lol). i liked the contradiction of the goodies with a baddy symbol.
Quote from: 0kult13 on February 15, 2012, 09:53:15 AM
Nice, and no i am not (i should report you to a mod lol). i liked the contradiction of the goodies with a baddy symbol.
Glad to hear it. Use better judgment from now on in your choice of signature photos to avoid any misunderstandings.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 15, 2012, 02:47:52 PM
Quote from: 0kult13 on February 15, 2012, 09:53:15 AM
Nice, and no i am not (i should report you to a mod lol). i liked the contradiction of the goodies with a baddy symbol.
Glad to hear it. Use better judgment from now on in your choice of signature photos to avoid any misunderstandings.
"I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it," var - prosporo burns