GrogHeads Forum

Hello Grogheads,

This is my first post on the subject, I have been looking for that perfect game, I have been for years and I have not been able to find it. I have been close and enjoyed a few along the way, I know that there can be improvements. The concept for the game is to create the most realistic WW2 title attainable. A game by name but really a simulation.

I am building a community of skilled and talented people who are on the same path that can provide a unique  skill set. The reward: The most realistic WW2 experience through gaming we can achieve.

Feel free to comment ask questions and provide your feedback positive or negative but what I am looking for is to gauge an interest in such a project/game and to sense the talent pool available in such a dedicated community.

I think we need a bit more detail to have an informed discussion. 

Simulation is a broad topic.  Is it air, ground, sea, all three?   Are you talking first person, third, top down?  A realistic shooter ala Arma?  A squad based tactical game? 

I love realistic simulations so I'm intrigued as you can see that's a broad topic.   You could make a game about logistics and running a fuel dump and call it the most realistic simulation on WW2 ever made as long as you fill it with reams and reams of paperwork.   ;)

Do you have a programming background or something similar that you plan to contribute to the project?  I think giving a bit of background on yourself would help the people you're looking for to make an informed decision.

I don't mean to come across as snarky, but with any software development project the answer will NEVER be:

QuoteIf the community rallies together we can do it in no time at all

...no matter how many cooks you add to the kitchen.

Those are all good questions. First let me answer the hard ones, no I do not have any programming background so I cannot contribute in that regard initially and it's best to be honest about that upfront. I do have project management experience and I am essentially making the project go forward which is what alot of want but can't or won't do. I have experience with military matters and I will leave at that in a public forum. The reality of it is that I cannot do this alone so the vision is to get a snowball going and by getting a small group going getting proof of concept we can request funds etc and attract more talent. Once the proof of concept is there and I have a small team the next step would be to fund legal counsel as this would essentially be a community project that has its own challenges. So to provide all the details at this stage is impossible.

To answer the fun stuff which is why we all are here and commented I assume is the interest in the genre.

To simplify the idea is bringing title such as Graviteam Tactics, Close Combat TBF, Combat Mission BN into the "modern" world and to build on those titles to add to what works and change what doesn't.

Quote from: WW2 tactics on May 25, 2020, 05:24:39 PM
I have experience with military matters and I will leave at that in a public forum.

That sounds like some Tier 1, super elite commando stuff. Sign me up.

Hey I said negative comments welcome freedom of speech is free just don't make it cheap please :2funny:

Let me know what you would like to see in games if the genre if you'd like to contribute to the conversation.

One thing the genre is missing is persistent units and following their movements. As in having a base camp that Able Company returns to after the mission and refits while baker company continues the assault or similar unit persistence. Focusing solely on one campaign in detail as opposed to multiple so you can work out logistics etc a persistent map. Recovery vehicles, counter assaults and time limits on setting up defensive positions and fatigue etc. some of these are implemented but not together or not in enough detail.
Pet peeves are zig zag roads or non destructinle buildings with walk through walls.

Here is a link to the newly created group if you are interested and would like to discuss further.

https://discord.gg/jpTzSu

More info
Game engine: Unreal Engine
C++

Post any more questions, comments or gripes, in the discord server.

Your support is highly requested as well.

Quote from: WW2 tactics on May 25, 2020, 05:48:59 PM
Hey I said negative comments welcome freedom of speech is free just don't make it cheap please :2funny:

Let me know what you would like to see in games if the genre if you'd like to contribute to the conversation.

One thing the genre is missing is persistent units and following their movements. As in having a base camp that Able Company returns to after the mission and refits while baker company continues the assault or similar unit persistence. Focusing solely on one campaign in detail as opposed to multiple so you can work out logistics etc a persistent map. Recovery vehicles, counter assaults and time limits on setting up defensive positions and fatigue etc. some of these are implemented but not together or not in enough detail.
Pet peeves are zig zag roads or non destructinle buildings with walk through walls.

You have to have a bit of a thick skin here sometimes.  If you've been lurking it's par for the course.  Trust me, if you actually show us something that moistens the loins we'll be all in.  Ask the Admiral and his game Task Force Admiral.   We're also friendly to people that are upfront. 

And that does bring me to my concern.  If you have no programming experience doing something like this is a hard road to follow.  Very hard.   I'm in publishing, and our project manager that does our operations side has very little hands on work on day to day materials, but she did a lot of time in the trenches before she became a project manager, actually writing, editing, putting books together. 

To be a project manager means you need to understand what the people under you are facing as challenges.  You're way better at that if you've done the job yourself.  I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that in a business as difficult as software, it absolutely helps if you have experience before you do it. 

Your basic idea sounds nice.  My dream WW2 game would be an armor sim where you partly control the armor, and partly control a semi-dynamic campaign where there's crew and deployment management.  Essentially an upgrade of sims like M1 Tank Platoon and Panzer Elite.  But, that's a hard thing to make.  I myself know that I could never make it even though I also have a lot of experience as a corporate executive.   Such a thing is out of my wheel house. 

But, I wish you luck.  I think you might underestimate the difficulty of what you propose.  But hey, who knows.  I'm always rooting for someone that has a good idea and wants to make it real.

Thanks for the feedback SirAndrew, this is still a project in it's infancy and the purpose of the post is to get feelers For interest in such a project. As a whole the project is not digestible yet, I will work on some bite size pieces and update here.

If you have any more advice comments on a project of this size keep the convo going.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but frankly WWII has been done to death 1000 times over. We have grand strategy WWII games, we have operational level WWII games, we have tactical level WWII games, we have tank and airplane sims, and many of these games/sims have some form of persistence across campaigns. I mean, between Paradox titles such as Darkest Hour, John Tiller titles such as the Panzer Campaign series, and Combat Mission and Graviteam titles such as Battle for Normandy and Mius Front, you already have sim/sim-lite games that cover all three levels of warfare in WWII, and all the games mentioned have persistence in some form.

Same goes for aircraft and tank sims. There are a plethora of WWII flight sims, and while there aren't quite as many modern WWII tank sims, they are still out there and well regarded. There are plenty of naval sims out there too, Silent Hunter series being one prominent one.

Its a nice idea, combining the best of all these games into one mega-sim, like a WWII Virtual Battle Simulator (VBS), but to do that would likely be a mammoth undertaking that would not be self sustainable under its own power.

Besides, there are so many other eras of warfare just in the 20th century that have been either under represented or flat out ignored. What about the Arab-Israeli wars? 40 years of conflict, spanning nearly the entire Cold War, and all the technology improvements and hardware that came with it? Or the Cold War itself? Heck, there is an entire genre of fiction books that sold quite well that was born of speculation about the Cold War and its potential for conflict and warfare. There are endless possibilities to simulate conflict during the 1980's alone, between NATO and Warsaw Pact, or between various peripheral wars/battles like the Angolan Bush War, or Lebanon, or Libya, the list goes on. Hell, a simple Tu-22 Backfire sim would be a welcome change of pace and extremely interesting.

I don't mean to detract from anyone's passion or ideas. I just wish the wargaming community as a whole wasn't so fixated on WWII that they miss all the other time periods of conflict with tons of potential.

You are right that WW2 has been overdone but it's mainly been a handful of battles. Think operation overlord (mickey mouse). Battle of the bulge, barbarosa etc

I want to build a self sustainable world that will begin with operation Compass this is prior Tunisia. brits and indian forces against italians. Then canadians joined and finally the Germans with the arrival of The desert fox Rommel.

The desert scenario lends itself to a supply system and base capture.

Things that I am working on developing.

Map to tactical map seamless switch such as grand tactician the civil war.

A cover system for city fighting that scales with veterancy.

Role play campaign with a non descript commander of a company that supports battalion manuevers then promotes through the campaign to lead battalion level attacks. Choose from what type of company you want to lead such as a tank company or such. This way the historical aspect of the campaign remains but you are still able to "win" regardless of the side you choose.

Orders given to subordinates via a radio system as opposed to a point and click UI.

I know it's very ambitious but the mod communities in ARMA and such games add to these features so why not invite them early on in production.

I am also interested in Vietnam but Tunisia area was chosen due to the future mechanics.

I'm the opposite.  If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.

QuoteYou are right that WW2 has been overdone but it's mainly been a handful of battles. Think operation overlord (mickey mouse). Battle of the bulge, barbarosa etc

This is absolutely true, and is probably part of my overall burnout on WWII.

Again I'm not trying to distract from what you're doing or your passions at all, just voicing my opinion on the matter.

In a more constructive light, have you seen the new capabilities of VBS4? I know its basically an industry sim, but its entire world generating technology and all of the complex systems it simulates such as logistics, amphibious and air operations (many of them non combat) it might make for a good foundation. I have no idea how you would go about actually getting access to VBS4, but it might take care of a massive amount of programming and development. All you would have to do would be to develop the WWII assets and integrate them into the system. Everything else would basically be taken care of. I think you can even import map data from 1940s era maps to help build your terrain. Might be worth looking into.

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on May 27, 2020, 02:16:12 PM
I'm the opposite.  If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.

I think for me it's the balance of power that was present in ww2, similar to a chess game or a football(soccer) match that could go either way based on overstretching your lines underestimating your opponent and sometimes just pure luck. The outcome depended more on tactics although sometimes on equipment but not like in most modern conflicts.

Quote from: IICptMillerII on May 27, 2020, 02:34:41 PM

QuoteYou are right that WW2 has been overdone but it's mainly been a handful of battles. Think operation overlord (mickey mouse). Battle of the bulge, barbarosa etc

This is absolutely true, and is probably part of my overall burnout on WWII.

Again I'm not trying to distract from what you're doing or your passions at all, just voicing my opinion on the matter.

In a more constructive light, have you seen the new capabilities of VBS4? I know its basically an industry sim, but its entire world generating technology and all of the complex systems it simulates such as logistics, amphibious and air operations (many of them non combat) it might make for a good foundation. I have no idea how you would go about actually getting access to VBS4, but it might take care of a massive amount of programming and development. All you would have to do would be to develop the WWII assets and integrate them into the system. Everything else would basically be taken care of. I think you can even import map data from 1940s era maps to help build your terrain. Might be worth looking into.

VBS3 and I am assuming 4 are great systems I have been looking at Altis(not vbs but bohemia as im sure you know) for inspiration for map creation. Although it would be awesome to have a ready made sandbox, I would still need to change alot as I never liked the feel of the vehicles, they lack weight and a bunch of other minor things that I would like to solve as I go but to be fair like you said I wouldn't even know how to get my hands on it anyway without a heavy premium. I am really doing this as a passion for the genre and enjoying
it so far.

For now just focusing on animations. Then I will work on terrain thinking of going with world creator and quixel but I am not sure how they would optimize for an RTS type game. Will find out ;D

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on May 27, 2020, 02:16:12 PM
If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.

Hear, hear!

This is such a great quote, I had to sig-ify it  O0

SDR makes our corner of the Internet a better place.  For a long time his sig line was a picture of one crow with the caption, "Attempted Murder."  Always made me chuckle when I saw it.

Quote from: SirAndrewD on May 25, 2020, 08:12:21 PM

You have to have a bit of a thick skin here sometimes.  If you've been lurking it's par for the course.  Trust me, if you actually show us something that moistens the loins we'll be all in.  Ask the Admiral and his game Task Force Admiral.   We're also friendly to people that are upfront. 

Thanks SirAndrew!
In regard of the original topic though, I will venture the guess that it's always easier to get people to involve themselves in your dream if you pay them for their time upfront. Although there was a long brewing time to TFA and prototypes were made long before the first salary got sent, still it's only when I could make sure my dev could work on it full time (and convinced him of my own motivation and my ability to carry us there) that I started to have any hope of getting that thing done someday. And it's all the truer with our asset artists (3D & 2D) who live from people ordering work from them usually. It also shows that you're serious about your vision, that is if there's any vision to boot.

Not wanna criticize community-centered work as a concept there, but being all united together in a common project we'd all have a say in (I mean, where everybody's a designer beyond his natural skill set) while doing it for free is the recipe for never releasing anything. Someone has to make sure the money flows in the project and the others have to work their butts to make it happen, and have a motivator for it beyond just passion (that will make their work better & special eventually, but doesn't feed people). As a producer you will be forced to be serious about it because it is mostly your money. As co-workers they have to be serious about it because it's your money - and because you made sure to pick reliable, efficient & true people (which is, like, VERY HARD in real life if you've ever heard about it ^^). It's all the more challenging when, like you and me, we have no creative talent and still are in charge of putting & keeping all these people and their work together. Fortunately, there again Life is as good a school as it gets.

My 2 cts in rookie game management. Not that we've published a game, but at least we made it pretty & convincing enough to get to stage 2 of getting a publisher interested in it. That's all the luck I wish you, but there's a long way to go :)
So, really in a way, screw our opinion at this stage. I'd advise you to prepare a multiple-pages pitch of what you want to make instead, and show it to us then, and only then will you have efficient, useful feedback. Go find what your killer features are, and share them with us :)
And from there you shall grow your community more easily - and not from here, and not from now, that is my feeling.

Thanks for the feedback. I knew I came to the right community. I hear what you say and things are developing daily so attached a PDF as a "pitch". One of the reasons why I am moving it forward with or without support is to avoid analysis paralysis but of course getting specific expertise that would take years to develop would move the project forward faster. I don't expect for anyone to work for free, I do because it's my dream and although I have a fulltime job not related to this I don't consider this a job, I don't expect anyone to share the sentiment but I cannot promise funding until like you there is a proven concept and that will definitely take time, but if done correctly it will come. As things progress the project will become more private join the discord to follow https://discord.gg/jaA3cD.

I am afraid this PPT won't cut it bro, not at this stage.
My advice, head over there, loads of great resources

https://gamedocs.org/

On our end we've been using Chris Taylor's template initially for the first prototype. It's a fine way of making sure that you have everything you need
http://gamedocs.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ctaylordesigntemplate.docx

You can access the full list of documents here
https://gamedocs.org/documents/

Btw opening a discord now is simply useless IMHO. It's more interesting to build a community from exchange and dialogue on a public platform that can be easily linked to rather than retreat into some cave that nobody will know about till you actually announce something. Find a spot to make it your tavern and stick to it, you shall move to somewhere else where people can't find you all in due time when the community is there already.

Cheers mate, good luck!

This project is early early stages as in 2 weeks early stages just about a few days before I posted here. So far I just downloaded unity and blender and got some nice animations started. Never done any of this type of work before so any advice, help, encouragement, even expectation management advice, whatever will help to move it along is welcomed and thanks for sharing that link, will definitely get me a better starting place.