GrogHeads Forum

Even I am getting sick of all the political topics. Games guys. Talk about games!

In the meantime, just trying to get a pulse on how the silent majority feels about R&P and how best to manage it.

Thanks for participating honestly.

I feel like it needs to be here to avoid it creeping into the actual game based forums.

That said I do not think it's threads should be on the most popular or any other highlight list. If someone wants to bookmark a thread that's their prerogative but I feel the active threads highlight should be regulated to the main purpose of this board games, be it war, board, pc, console or even trivia.

But that's just my opinion and I know what it smells like, no reason to remind me.

I am intrigued about the water boarding option, is that an elective or mandatory reading?  :crazy2:

Another option would be to let people opt out. Just like unregistered users who can't see R&P, let the user decide (tick box on their profile?) if they want to see it. I would be interested in such an option. Of course that function may not be supported by the forum software.

I selected option 5!

I do read R&P and find it fascinating. On the other hand, i really dislike aggressiveness and like when people bring in facts and constructive discussions. I've been burned back then when we had the R&P in the Wargamer forum and haven't been as active since then. I've also learned not to involve myself in US politics....it's too hot.

Quote from: jamus34 on October 20, 2020, 07:25:20 AM
That said I do not think it's threads should be on the most popular or any other highlight list. If someone wants to bookmark a thread that's their prerogative but I feel the active threads highlight should be regulated to the main purpose of this board games, be it war, board, pc, console or even trivia.

I agree with Jamus, while i think it is an interesting sub-forum, theses specific R&P threads shouldn't pop-up on top of the forums (recent forum topics) as it pushes the visitors to click on the link. Don't know if it's possible.

It is a reasonable safety valve for the rest of the forum.

If you wish to make it less prominent, remove the category from the forum ticker.  If you wish to avoid the noise entirely, adopt Arizona Tank's option.

DO NOT MESS WITH COLLEGE SPORTS!

There are technical limitations to the options we can offer. If it is not listed as a poll option, assume that we either do not have the capability, or are otherwise limited by our level of technical sophistication. I don't want to press any buttons not knowing what will happen...whole planets have been destroyed that way.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 20, 2020, 08:14:05 AM
There are technical limitations to the options we can offer. If it is not listed as a poll option, assume that we either do not have the capability, or are otherwise limited by our level of technical sophistication. I don't want to press any buttons not knowing what will happen...whole planets have been destroyed that way.

Ok. Then my vote goes to option 2.....we don't want the world to explode after all....

Doing this will imply that people going there really want to go in that forum, knowing what there're going to find there.

Would any of these proposals include posts about Jeffrey Toobin or Anthony Weiner, or can those be grandfathered? :D

Quote from: airboy on October 20, 2020, 07:53:49 AM
It is a reasonable safety valve for the rest of the forum.

This. 

Quote from: MOS:96B2P on October 20, 2020, 09:05:27 AM

Quote from: airboy on October 20, 2020, 07:53:49 AM
It is a reasonable safety valve for the rest of the forum.

This.

I echo this sentiment.  IMHO, politics will be discussed on these forums.  The R&P forums keeps those discussions segregated.  With that said, Jarhead's comments requesting more gaming discussions is valid.  I'll try to do better in that regard.

I agree, it is a safety valve...as much as I am sick of it.

I voted to leave it as is.  Personally, I've mostly stepped back from the R&P forum.  I still browse through it, but haven't posted much.  I think it will cool down after the election.

I wouldn't miss it if it weren't there. At this point nobody's going to admit the other side's right and they're wrong. It only serves as a means to divide and aggravate the differences between us. On the other hand, it does display our ability to intelligently and respectfully disagree and discuss issues really important to today's headlines. Stopping the thread altogether would feel like the Cancel Culture has won personally. I'm OK with Option 5.

Does Option 2 mean shutting down the "recent posts" filter altogether, or just removing R&P from that list?  If it's the latter, I'm all for that option.  If it's the former, I'd like to rescind my vote and recast it for Option 3.

Quote from: al_infierno on October 20, 2020, 11:52:00 AM
Does Option 2 mean shutting down the "recent posts" filter altogether, or just removing R&P from that list?  If it's the latter, I'm all for that option.  If it's the former, I'd like to rescind my vote and recast it for Option 3.

I've tried to look for an option to do this, but I have not been able to find something that lets me do it. I agree that would be a very reasonable choice, but as of right now, it looks like I would have to shut off the index altogether.

OK...for the time being, I have added a feature that permits members to ignore boards that they do not wish to see. So if you decide to ignore the R&P board, the board and posts should be hidden.

Anyone want to give it a shot and come back to report if it works with the index?

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 20, 2020, 12:17:00 PM
OK...for the time being, I have added a feature that permits members to ignore boards that they do not wish to see. So if you decide to ignore the R&P board, the board and posts should be hidden.

Anyone want to give it a shot and come back to report if it works with the index?

I used it...will let you know how it works.

Works like a charm for the "Recent Posts" index, but interestingly it doesn't seem to actually remove/ignore the board and posts itself from the forum.  That's a perfect solution in my mind, but not sure if others wanted to be able to block it from view entirely.

Can we choose to ignore members instead? JUST KIDDING!  ;D  I for one do plan to spend less time at R&P. Seems pointless to just argue. That I can get from the Wife.  :hug:

Keep it as it is would be my vote.  I appreciate the opportunity to see how people think about such stuff.  For the most part  I'm in the contrary position to everyone else around here, but I like to understand what those positions are.

I feel like we lost a lot of valuable contributors to this forum because of it. 

I honestly like everyone here, so when someone leaves, and they generally express because they feel that the site is extremely right wing, to the point of it being uncomfortable, it's painful. 

I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them, but I feel some of the R&P topics and threads don't respect ideas that are left of center.   I've said several times I'm, politically a Republican and have been for my life.  I'm voting Democrat this year but I voted for Johnson in 2016.  I don't particularly agree with the left, but I don't demonize it and understand that both sides have a lot of right and wrong. 

There's a lot of what we historians call "The Erosion of the Middle" here.  And trust me, I've seen it from leftist people too.   I've literally lost friends on the left since 2016...in VERY ugly fashions.  Not forum friends, actual personal IRL friends.  I lost them because I did things like not vote for Clinton, and defend some stuff on the right. 

So, yeah, I'm one of the votes for shut it down.  I'll keep participating in it if it's here and I understand why people want it.  But, I feel we've lost a lot more than we've gained.   The silence from some of the people that are gone is deafening.

Quote from: SirAndrewD on October 20, 2020, 08:10:45 PM
I feel like we lost a lot of valuable contributors to this forum because of it. 

I honestly like everyone here, so when someone leaves, and they generally express because they feel that the site is extremely right wing, to the point of it being uncomfortable, it's painful. 

I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with them, but I feel some of the R&P topics and threads don't respect ideas that are left of center.   I've said several times I'm, politically a Republican and have been for my life.  I'm voting Democrat this year but I voted for Johnson in 2016.  I don't particularly agree with the left, but I don't demonize it and understand that both sides have a lot of right and wrong. 

There's a lot of what we historians call "The Erosion of the Middle" here.  And trust me, I've seen it from leftist people too.   I've literally lost friends on the left since 2016...in VERY ugly fashions.  Not forum friends, actual personal IRL friends.  I lost them because I did things like not vote for Clinton, and defend some stuff on the right. 

So, yeah, I'm one of the votes for shut it down.  I'll keep participating in it if it's here and I understand why people want it.  But, I feel we've lost a lot more than we've gained.   The silence from some of the people that are gone is deafening.

I'm with you SirAndrew.

I would charactorize myself as a conservative but even that is being tried due to some personal issues I've been dealing with.

That said, at the end of the day I can't really support either side based on what the parties are made up of currently vs my current economic position. I consider myself / family as middle class, probably would be classified middle high class in in most states but property taxes alone will get you anywhere from a nice used car to brand new accord every year, depending where you live in NJ. So, because I am not ultra rich, so the Republican right has no use for me as I am not a major corporation, I do not run a major corporation and I am not one of the 1%. However, I have a mind, I don't follow people easily and I like to call BS when I see it, so the Democratic left also has no use for me. Therefore, no matter who gets elected I know I am getting screwed over.

So ultimately I consciously vote most specifically on things that effect me directly, IE state and local referendums, local town council, county seats, school board, etc. Since I know regardless of who sits in the WH I am getting screwed I really don't give a shit; they both suck.

Ok, I'll get off the bourbonbox now.

Have a good night Grogs.

+1 to the last two comments.  I'd actually like to re-rescind my vote and cast it as Option 1.

I'm literally not lying in that my voting history as a "young" man is this...

Dole, Bush, Bush, McCain, Romney, Johnson, Biden.


That's where I am at.  And please get, I'm not getting there from an uninformed place. 

We're not in a vacuum. 

guys....you're proving my rationale for even starting this poll. Even this thread is crossing over into politics. It finds a way to seep into everything.

The only thing I want to add is on a personal note in response to SirAndrews comment about how certain people left the site over "right wing" politics. I've never accepted that as the true cause for why certain people left. It is completely unreasonable. If you're going to abandon something you helped build over a period of years and friends you've had for decades simply because some people hold different political views, then you should be in therapy. That's just not how the world works. If you have a problem with something that was posted or with certain members, you talk about it. You don't abandon your friends without any prior notice, complaint or discussion. It was a bullshit excuse then and it's a bullshit excuse today.

We don't allow extremist views of any kind here. Period. We never have and we never will. If anyone ever feels like a line is crossed, you come to me, Gus or one of the mods. Your concern will be addressed.

In the words of the great Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.

Although I have already written many posts in R&P, I am convinced that this has not changed anyone's vision. And although I now understand a number of points of view better, I haven't really changed my mind either.

As long as society remains so polarized (and this is certainly not only the case in the US) R&P has no real added value, I fear.

News facts can still go to Current Events if we can keep that forum fairly clean.

Quote from: Pete Dero on October 21, 2020, 07:22:36 AM
Although I have already written many posts in R&P, I am convinced that this has not changed anyone's vision. And although I now understand a number of points of view better, I haven't really changed my mind either.

As long as society remains so polarized (and this is certainly not only the case in the US) R&P has no real added value, I fear.

News facts can still go to Current Events if we can keep that forum fairly clean.

I agree. But therein lies the problem. What's a "fact"? Facts and data are all manipulated now to support one agenda or another. You post a lot of links around here to articles that you probably view as factual. Others here probably view them as satire.

I don't want to be in the business of having the final say on what is a permissible fact and what is  impermissible fiction. I'll leave that to Facebook and Twitter. See what I did there?

FWIW, I am 100% certain that yes, our old partners and members left and used the 'extreme right of this site' as an excuse. I miss most of who left because I considered them good, if virtual, friends, but they left for other reasons and the 'rightism' of GH was clearly a BS excuse.

Quote from: Pete Dero on October 21, 2020, 07:22:36 AM
Although I have already written many posts in R&P, I am convinced that this has not changed anyone's vision. And although I now understand a number of points of view better, I haven't really changed my mind either.

As long as society remains so polarized (and this is certainly not only the case in the US) R&P has no real added value, I fear.

News facts can still go to Current Events if we can keep that forum fairly clean.

Pete - you occasionally post things that change my mind.  And your response to my Fallout New Vegas modding question has shaped my gaming for more than a week and still going strong.  Thanks!

Quote from: Gusington on October 21, 2020, 07:57:20 AM
FWIW, I am 100% certain that yes, our old partners and members left and used the 'extreme right of this site' as an excuse. I miss most of who left because I considered them good, if virtual, friends, but they left for other reasons and the 'rightism' of GH was clearly a BS excuse.

I'm not convinced that it was just excuses from their perspective. Left leaning people seem to have a mental caricature of the positions of conservatives and centrists that doesn't match reality. Just recently on this board we've seen an assumption that a supporter of gun rights would only want them for white people. Also, bringing up cultural differences as a possible cause of racial disparity seemed to lead to the assumption that I was naive and had little to no familiarity with actual black people.

Head scratchers for sure.

Edit: sorry this post seems a little harsh. I'm posting from my phone at work and it's more difficult to settle on a tone. Maybe I should have a rule that I only post from home.

Quote from: Ubercat on October 21, 2020, 09:31:48 AM
Also, bringing up cultural differences as a possible cause of racial disparity seemed to lead to the assumption that I was naive and had little to no familiarity with actual black people.

Head scratchers for sure.

I asked you if you vetted your opinion with actual black people.  I didn't make any assumptions.  It was a perfectly reasonable thing to ask you given the topic.

So far I find the poll results intriguing.

Quote

Leave it the way it is, we're all adults (35.7%)
Shut it down, lock it up and throw away the key (25%)
Shut down the 5 most recent posts index at the top of the forum so that the topics are not as prominent (17.9%)
Close it temporarily until election season is over and then reassess (14.3%)
Use R&P to identify political opponents so we can imprison and waterboard them (7.1%)

The majority thus far would leave it as is. But, it is certainly not overwhelming, with the shut it down completely option a close second. What's most troubling is that nearly 10% of voters are in favor of imprisonment and waterboarding.  :hide:

I voted for temporary moratorium until after the election (I might even suggest until February); but I can see good points for the other options, too. (Not the waterboarding ofc.  ::) )

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 21, 2020, 09:49:51 AM
What's most troubling is that nearly 10% of voters are in favor of imprisonment and waterboarding.  :hide:

For those who want to imprison and waterboard me, you will need my address : 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500

Quote from: Pete Dero on October 21, 2020, 10:42:10 AM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 21, 2020, 09:49:51 AM
What's most troubling is that nearly 10% of voters are in favor of imprisonment and waterboarding.  :hide:

For those who want to imprison and waterboard me, you will need my address : 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500

You're not moving in until January, right?  :DD

Please no one assume from my joke that I like Trump. No matter what bullet we dodge next month we're walking face first into another one.   :-*

There's always time for Waterboarding.   :bd:

Back on topic, why the number of posts in R&P versus all of the gaming forums?

Most of the game stuff does not engender either controversy or much discussion.  I'm playing this, this other thing is coming out, I like or dislike this game for whatever reason.  Just not a lot of discussion.  People will read them (I don't have access to the stats), but you don't get a lot of posts or discussion.

Even AARs, which have a story line, don't get a ton of discussion.

The books thread is a post with a huge number of total replies - but even there you don't have a lot of back & forth.

R&P by its nature is controversial, so you get a lot of back and forth which generates a lot of posts.

I suggest removing R&P from the "most recent posts" ticker and the problem will correct itself.

From personal experience, in the last week or so I've posted on:
a] A mini-review of Fleet Commander Nimitz - which had one or two comments.
b] Experience with modded Fallout New Vegas - with one or two comments.
c] Cocktail party & drink list - a handful of comments.
d] College Football - some back and forth
e] Some political stuff - with a lot of comments.
f] A question about the new gog release - which I don't think was ever answered.
g] A post on Sweden increasing their military spending substantially (some discussion)
h] A post today on a US Special Forces action involving the UAE and how that helped the peace deal with Israel.
i] I picture of my dog with a comment.

I started the thread or wrote the review on most of these (including this year's college football thread).  The current events things (nonpolitical) and the political things get the most commentary.  The game stuff seldom gets much commentary - even when it is a review of a brand new wargame of some sort.

Quote from: Ubercat on October 21, 2020, 11:33:04 AM

Quote from: Pete Dero on October 21, 2020, 10:42:10 AM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 21, 2020, 09:49:51 AM
What's most troubling is that nearly 10% of voters are in favor of imprisonment and waterboarding.  :hide:

For those who want to imprison and waterboard me, you will need my address : 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500

You're not moving in until January, right?  :DD

The way things are going I'll probably be moving out in January, but my wife told me she has to stay behind a year or two to help the new owners.  ;)

Quote from: airboy on October 21, 2020, 01:14:35 PM
I suggest removing R&P from the "most recent posts" ticker and the problem will correct itself.

I never look at 'most recent posts'.  I always click 'show unread posts since last visit'.  The control freak in me can't risk to miss something  8).

I always click unread posts and new replies (since I can't always recall which threads I've commented in), with an eye across the five most recent.

I can certainly see merit in the R&P stuff being blocked from the five most recent, although I'm unsure if that's technically possible with this forum engine. For what it's worth, I would suppose all member-only subcategories and their threads never show up there anyway for non-members? -- since visitors wouldn't be able to see them. So visitors only see the gaming stuff, not our political or non-gaming conversations?

Quote from: airboy on October 21, 2020, 01:14:35 PM
Back on topic, why the number of posts in R&P versus all of the gaming forums?

Generally agreed on all points, although with more effect from the current political climate of course -- once upon a time R&P rarely showed up on the five most current.