https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/ckii-subscription-service.1457585/#post-27302723
I play a few Paradox games off and on but can't say I am thrilled about this development. Yes, at the minute it is optional but the "auto renew" feature is just wrong.
I think right now it is a non-issue. If you were interested in CKII, you've already purchased the game and all the mods you wanted, so you won't be subscribing. If they plan on expanding it to other titles, such as Imperator: Rome, they risk people like me subscribing, realizing the game was bad, and canceling the subscription, losing a small fraction of what the player would have spent on buying the game outright. Apparently, the subscription is $5/month so right now it isn't worth me paying for CKII. However, if they were to offer a subscription to CKIII for $5 (or even $10/month), I would probably do it, just to see if I wanted to buy the game.
After buying a Paradox game I pick and choose the DLC I want so this is a non-issue for me as well.
Dunno what my personal thoughts are but I suspect there will be quite a few developers watching with interest to see if it works. Subscription services for streaming TV and music have become totally normalised within the span of just a few years (I can't even remember the last time I watched a DVD!) so why not videogames?
Does the $5.00 per month get you access to just that one game or to a host of others as well? I'm not sure I understand how this works.
For CK2, the subscription gets you access to all the DLC, from which you can pick and choose what to use as usual (plus picking and choosing which effects from which DLCs to use, as usual).
CK2 itself is free to play now. Presumably this also includes modding, but aside from cosmetic modding I expect all functional modding now works off a late-stage DLC.
Quote from: Rayfer on February 22, 2021, 11:19:28 AM
Does the $5.00 per month get you access to just that one game or to a host of others as well? I'm not sure I understand how this works.
it is exclusive to CKII. I can only imagine that this is a trial run to see if it is popular before being expanded to other titles. Probably trying to somehow break into the subscription service craze. I can't really conceive of this making sense for that many people. Perhaps someone who has neither the base game nor any of the DLCs or expansions, and then only to a certain extent for a finite period. Even new players who have never played CKII might not jump on this since the series has moved on to CKIII. Overall, strange idea at a really strange time, but I guess it is always good to have more options...
I can see the advantages if and only if it remains an option.
My concern is for folks who are a little less organised and who sign up and dont monitor their accounts as real life takes over. A huge percent of folk in the UK never switch bank accounts/electricity,gas or insurance providers through ignorance, lack of time or whatever and end up paying hundreds of pounds too much each year as a result.
My concern is that these folk are the target audience.
Quote from: devoncop on February 22, 2021, 01:21:06 PM
I can see the advantages if and only if it remains an option.
My concern is for folks who are a little less organised and who sign up and dont monitor their accounts as real life takes over. A huge percent of folk in the UK never switch bank accounts/electricity,gas or insurance providers through ignorance, lack of time or whatever and end up paying hundreds of pounds too much each year as a result.
My concern is that these folk are the target audience.
I guess...but you can't really put that on Paradox. People have to take personal responsibility for their own money and how it is spent, and so long as Paradox is open and discloses everything without trying to deceive in any way, then they cannot be criticized in my view. if you sign up for something that you know is a monthly service with reoccurring fees that auto-renew unless you cancel, I don't see any problem. Again, it is not something that I find attractive in any sense, but YMMV.
Oh I am 100% in agreement on personal responsibility being a much ignored principle these days which really needs to come back into fashion so I get your point Jarhead.
What folks need to realise is this model pretty much removes the ability to dip in and out of games you own in your Steam Library...some pretty old whenever you get the urge.
As someone also pointed out on the Paradox forum Crusader Kings 2 had a 4 year development cycle. Assuming CK3 has the same then if they introduce the same thing then a subscriber who wanted to stay with the journey would end up paying over £200.00 and still not own the game or DLC's.
Like you say though customers stand and fall on their own choices in life.
Subscriptions for a game or game related stuff? No thanks.
To reiterate: anyone can currently own the CK2 game for free without a subscription. This has been true for around (at least?) a year already, with DLC being the paid points (and already being batched together in some cases).
The subscription model, according to the Paradox press release, isn't going to change owning CK2 for free.
It is true however that going forward (on this new subscription strategy) if you don't own the DLC already, you'll only be renting access to them now.
Edited to add: come to think of it, among other previously stated reasons, Paradox might be trying to partly offset CK2 competing against CK3 while still monetizing significant portions of CK2 going forward. Sure, you can rent access to the CK2 DLC, but you won't be able to keep it, whereas (currently) you can keep any DLC for CK3.
I don't discount subscription based services in total. I subscribe to the subscription services of EA and Microsoft and have found these to be very worthwhile and economically beneficial. However, these services give you access to nearly their entire catalogues, as well as of new games on release. If Paradox had something similar with a service that gave you access to their entire catalog, plus all new releases, it might start to look a little more attractive to me...even though their releases are sometimes few and far between.
If I was setting up the DLC subscription service for CK2, I'd offer it as a rent-to-own.
I'd establish a new reasonable price point for the entire DLC package (since that's what's being rented), and then let Steam (and other services) track how often an account has paid 'rent' on the package. Once you ever pass the threshold point, even from taking however many breaks on the subscription for however long, then you now own the DLC total package.
....meanwhile, anyone who's like me (and I know I am! :D ), may be asking yourself, "Hey, if CK2 is free to own now, and its DLC is going into rental mode for new owners, then what about CK1?"
The answer to your question, oh fictional voice in my head, is that Steam is still selling CK Complete for $9.99 when not on sale! ;D
You could also think of it as a $5 demo. If you're willing to pay full price for a game when it comes out, you could by 1 month for $5 and then decide if it's worth it. Assuming you can cancel the sub and then buy the game.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 22, 2021, 02:16:36 PM
I don't discount subscription based services in total. I subscribe to the subscription services of EA and Microsoft and have found these to be very worthwhile and economically beneficial. However, these services give you access to nearly their entire catalogues, as well as of new games on release. If Paradox had something similar with a service that gave you access to their entire catalog, plus all new releases, it might start to look a little more attractive to me...even though their releases are sometimes few and far between.
Yeah. This is more my way of thinking.
Hi guys, please allow me to chip in here.
First I would like to say that this is an optional thing. It will not replace good old purchases :)
One of the reasons we decided to experiment with these subscriptions, is that, as a result of all the DLC out there, the entry barrier was getting very high. People would see the sheer list of DLCs (and total price) and it would scare them. A monthly subscription can act as a great way to mitigate that somewhat. Jumping on for a month, seeing what DLC you think is worth it, and then continuing to purchase (or not).
Quote from: Surtur on February 23, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
Hi guys, please allow me to chip in here.
First I would like to say that this is an optional thing. It will not replace good old purchases :)
One of the reasons we decided to experiment with these subscriptions, is that, as a result of all the DLC out there, the entry barrier was getting very high. People would see the sheer list of DLCs (and total price) and it would scare them. A monthly subscription can act as a great way to mitigate that somewhat. Jumping on for a month, seeing what DLC you think is worth it, and then continuing to purchase (or not).
Thank you for your explanation of the motivation for such a move.
If that is indeed your rationale then I see the logic......until the " auto renewal" feature of the subscription is brought into the equation. Why not just have a pop up at the end of the subscription asking the player to click to renew for another 30 days access ?
A cynic may think that the less organised customers would then not be able to passively continue to pay for access they may no longer want or even be using. ....
The reaction on the Paradox forums appears overwhelmingly negative but no doubt the market will decide if it is a success.
Quote from: Surtur on February 23, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
Hi guys, please allow me to chip in here.
First I would like to say that this is an optional thing. It will not replace good old purchases :)
One of the reasons we decided to experiment with these subscriptions, is that, as a result of all the DLC out there, the entry barrier was getting very high. People would see the sheer list of DLCs (and total price) and it would scare them. A monthly subscription can act as a great way to mitigate that somewhat. Jumping on for a month, seeing what DLC you think is worth it, and thren continuing to purchase (or not).
You are working for Paradox now?
Quote from: devoncop on February 23, 2021, 02:20:26 PM
Thank you for your explanation of the motivation for such a move.
If that is indeed your rationale then I see the logic......until the " auto renewal" feature of the subscription is brought into the equation. Why not just have a pop up at the end of the subscription asking the player to click to renew for another 30 days access ?
A cynic may think that the less organised customers would then not be able to passively continue to pay for access they may no longer want or even be using. ....
The reaction on the Paradox forums appears overwhelmingly negative but no doubt the market will decide if it is a success.
Yes, though it seems a lot of these reactions come from people who are afraid to see their preferred way of obtaining games will disappear. That fear is understandable, these are the most loyal fans, and they want to own games, not just rent/play them. But for them, little will change, as we will not stop offering software for them to buy. As for the subscription model, this is how Steam is set up for it. Though you can cancel directly after purchase, and so it will just stop after a month as you state. I actually just did this to try EA Play on Steam :)
@Anguille, yes since a couple of weeks. Not directly involved with monetization though, still working in production. But as a lurker here I figured I might as well contribute a little here.
It's not unreasonable to speculate that this might be Paradox testing the water for a full roll-out of subscription-only titles.
One of Paradoxes Devs was talking about 'customer retention level' (how a typical customer remains loyal with a product and buys DLC etc.) and mentioned that their retention level for Hearts of Iron is 'like addicts on crack' (thanks). Putting their big titles on subscription-only might be an irresistible lure for them to capitalize on their titles with a sure-fire cash cow, but not so good if it's the only way to buy their games and DLC. Considering how passionate HOI fans are and how volatile this issue could be, it could be quite controversial.
I'm a firm believer in having the option to purchase goods or services outright and if there is a buy-outright option as well as a subscription option, there shouldn't be a problem for Paradox.
It'll be interesting to see how this develops over the next couple of years.
Quote from: Surtur on February 24, 2021, 03:39:19 AM
@Anguille, yes since a couple of weeks. Not directly involved with monetization though, still working in production. But as a lurker here I figured I might as well contribute a little here.
Interesting. You've been moving quiet a bit in the last few years.
It's an interesting concept. Speaking as a guy who did almost a decade in a professional pricing role, it's an interesting approach for a product that's in the "cash cow starting to show a little age" category. Any product with a mature stable of DLC that's been out for 3-5 years can probably do this, and Paradox can see what the math looks like for CK II.
I can't imagine that DLC is generating much incremental revenue these days, even among those folks who have the base game.
Going to a subscription-only model on a broader basis for existing clients would be a much riskier move. Some firms do that and the transition works well for them (MS has had some success with Xbox), but this is the kind of thing that works much better when you have a really sticky client base (e.g., transitioning from Word to Google Docs can be a pain-in-the-ass whereas buying my next TBS game from a Paradox competitor is a lot less disruptive).
It doesn't sound like that is planned by Paradox, which feels like a good business decision. The blowback from their base if they tried that would be crippling, I suspect.
Quote from: Anguille on February 24, 2021, 09:34:15 AM
Interesting. You've been moving quiet a bit in the last few years.
A little, was with Slitherine/Matrix for the last 2.5 years or so.
Quote from: Surtur on February 24, 2021, 12:48:11 PM
Quote from: Anguille on February 24, 2021, 09:34:15 AM
Interesting. You've been moving quiet a bit in the last few years.
A little, was with Slitherine/Matrix for the last 2.5 years or so.
Yeah and for Iceberg before. I liked the let's plays your were doing back then.
Ah yes, that is nice to read. I really enjoyed some of those, especially the Oriental Empires games :)