http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19312226
I'm not sure China is ready to take on Japan yet.
Can I vote for Flashpoint Germany 2: Red Storm? Shamless plug alert.
Just throw two darts at the map in that region and ring the bell. Very unstable there.
Quote from: Capn Darwin on August 20, 2012, 03:08:07 PM
Can I vote for Flashpoint Germany 2: Red Storm? Shamless plug alert.
Only if they actually use unabstracted infantry in the game this time.
Interesting. I wonder if the reason China is so interested in these islands is to allow unimpeded access to the pacific?
they want it for future energy needs.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 20, 2012, 04:11:09 PM
they want it for future energy needs.
maybe... they have ready alternatives to that
Also if you rattle the saber with an overseas opponent, it distracts the masses from problems at home.
Quote from: Windigo on August 20, 2012, 04:22:23 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 20, 2012, 04:11:09 PM
they want it for future energy needs.
maybe... they have ready alternatives to that
True, but in order for it to ever work you would need a near endless supply of human labor and a liberal policy of human rights violations, it would never happen in Chi.....well, on second thought.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecochunk.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F07%2FElectricity-generating-bikes_2.jpg&hash=ac2e3f23a6025983c89b752d7e1ea714feefdc19)
Well Japan might want a real military before pissing in China's Cheerios too often. Of course they (like 3/4 of the freaking "free" world) are depending on American intervention in case of a real conflict.
Well, the Japanese do have that 'thing' about developing actual Giant Fighting Robots... perhaps Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is close to fielding a real working Atlas. ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fzerode.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F11%2Fmothra.jpg&hash=c9f4193eb04aed8fc4d392c9f37aefadccd41622)
Quote from: Bison on August 20, 2012, 08:06:36 PM
Well Japan might want a real military before pissing in China's Cheerios too often. Of course they (like 3/4 of the freaking "free" world) are depending on American intervention in case of a real conflict.
smart or what eh?
Doesn't Japan have the 3rd or 4th largest military in the world and they just call it the Boy Scouts or something?
They have the Japanese Self Defense Force. It's not considered a "full time" army, navy, air force. The total force is a couple hundred thousand.
More reading on the subject: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587483914661256.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587483914661256.html)
Quote from: Bison on August 20, 2012, 10:32:18 PM
They have the Japanese Self Defense Force. It's not considered a "full time" army, navy, air force. The total force is a couple hundred thousand.
Wake that giant and let me know how things look.
I've heard that due to toilet training practices in early life the Japanese become extemely fierce warriors ;)
Steelgrave good article. I was particularly interested in the following quotes from the article which made my blood boil a little:
Quote from: Wall Street Journal...the Chinese government responded angrily, warning that State Department officials had "confounded right and wrong, and sent a seriously wrong message." The People's Daily, a quasi-official publication, accused the U.S. of "fanning the flames and provoking division, deliberately creating antagonism with China." Its overseas edition said it was time for the U.S. to "shut up."
It's time for the U.S. to 'shut up'? >:(
Quote from: Wall Street JournalDue to China's growing power in the region, by taking no position Washington has by default become an enabler of China's ever more aggressive acts.
Thank you you farging idiot in the white house and all your communists currently in our government! >:(
Quote from: Wall Street JournalHistory teaches us that when unilateral acts of aggression go unanswered, the bad news never gets better with age. Nowhere is this cycle more apparent than in the alternating power shifts in East Asia. As historian Barbara Tuchman noted in her biography of U.S. Army Gen. Joseph Stillwell, it was China's plea for U.S. and League of Nations support that went unanswered following Japan's 1931 invasion of Manchuria, a neglect that "brewed the acid of appeasement that . . . opened the decade of descent to war" in Asia and beyond.
While America's attention is distracted by the presidential campaign, all of East Asia is watching what the U.S. will do about Chinese actions in the South China Sea. They know a test when they see one. They are waiting to see whether America will live up to its uncomfortable but necessary role as the true guarantor of stability in East Asia, or whether the region will again be dominated by belligerence and intimidation.
You gotta love Barbara Tuchman. <mentally gives her the thumbs up sign>
Anyone has a sense of what China's ability currently is to extend force and land amphibious assault troops? Could they pose a real threat to Japanese controlled islands?
Hmm, the Japan Maritime Self Defence Force has:
4 Helicopter Destroyers
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FHelicopter_carrier_Hy%25C5%25ABga_%252816DDH%2529.jpg%2F800px-Helicopter_carrier_Hy%25C5%25ABga_%252816DDH%2529.jpg&hash=9e0aac0ef1ad0ff702fa425632f3a80f635f3200)
8 Guided Missile Destroyers
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F75%2FDDG173_JDS_Kongo.jpg%2F800px-DDG173_JDS_Kongo.jpg&hash=97624f1b89c607d88af4f1fd0e52fac227ce8c9a)
30 Destroyers
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fc8%2FJDS_Makinami_%2528DD_112%2529.jpg%2F800px-JDS_Makinami_%2528DD_112%2529.jpg&hash=bcc670f07b82cc273c5e8b1b669e6eadcaadfa33)
6 Destroyer Escorts
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F6%2F62%2FDestroyerEscorts231%2526232%2526234.JPG%2F800px-DestroyerEscorts231%2526232%2526234.JPG&hash=f37625d1533749f0f4bb69564b832de63920021c)
16 Submarines
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F0%2F0c%2FJapanese_Submarine_Oyashio_SS590.JPEG%2F800px-Japanese_Submarine_Oyashio_SS590.JPEG&hash=4d590ce8743d3af3cc1ae0b36a4563617452e62b)
29 Minesweepers
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F97%2FJMSDF_MSO_301_Yaeyama.JPG%2F800px-JMSDF_MSO_301_Yaeyama.JPG&hash=1e17316239b2b711885ff8ea52cb19f665e497b4)
6 Patrol Boats
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F82%2FPG-827_KUMATAKA.JPG%2F800px-PG-827_KUMATAKA.JPG&hash=9d2442dbb4591d0d6a46d04c9d27c9584707e442)
6 Landing Ships
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F85%2FOsumiNagasaki.JPG%2F800px-OsumiNagasaki.JPG&hash=074ea3352ac5899aa0085962e1cea07ddd055d21)
and 19 other landing craft
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F97%2FJMSDF_LCAC.JPG%2F800px-JMSDF_LCAC.JPG&hash=e172ad86e22dfc50e401fdb64a3735ff22031fab)
Along with auxiliary and support ships
The Chinese have A LOT more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Navy
I think that the Japanese navy has a slight technical edge, but a much greater lead in actual operations.
Until quite recently the Chinese rarely went out for very long, and were primarily a coastal force.
This is changing, and they will close the operational gap. How long that will take is hard to say.
Their participation in the Somali piracy patrols may be quite the wake up call for the force.
Well, the other thing to consider is that in the case of a full-blown naval conflict, America is not going to sit idly by while the Japanese navy is dismantled. I don't think that even Obama would let that happen. Now, a smaller skirmish or two....thats more of a wild card imho.
My concern would be the hundreds of anti-ship missile carrying aircraft.
China is the big fish in the small pond. If their aggressive rhetoric becomes action, they can take their objectives fairly easily before we can get in there. The Phillipines aren't the home of a mighty American presence anymore. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure if we have any significant forces any closer than Hawaii or Afghanistan.
I think the mistake is to view China actions as if they would happen without international support. You have a strong relationship with Iran. Sock puppet North Korea. And a warming relationship with Russia. There is enough testing of American and allied resolve by all of these nations alone to cause concern.
Quote from: MetalDog on August 21, 2012, 10:02:17 PM
China is the big fish in the small pond. If their aggressive rhetoric becomes action, they can take their objectives fairly easily before we can get in there. The Phillipines aren't the home of a mighty American presence anymore. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure if we have any significant forces any closer than Hawaii or Afghanistan.
I know there's a website around here somewhere that shows where US aircraft carriers are currently serving - at least approximately.
Couldn't find it, but that doesn't matter.
Here's a list of the weight of US carriers vice all the other players. It isn't to say that China couldn't make things interesting for us for a while, but as of today we have control of the seas. Period.
There isn't a straight image to hijack - you'll have to hit the page directly to see the graphic.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/carriers.htm
I have no doubt of the capability of the U.S. military. Ultimately, I think, we would triumph in a Sino-American clash. It's a matter of getting there quick enough, with enough force to do the job, to make China cough up what they have taken.
Now, if you subscribe to the dim picture Bison paints above, things would get hairy fast. Iran, the Norks AND Russia at China's side? How fast would the rest of the world move to stand at OUR side? All the bad blood and ill will our (occasionally) ham handed international diplomacy has stirred up, would that be put to the side? Or would the rest of the world sit out and watch us go down?
I have to imagine the former. If we go, who's next? Would everyone be happy to kow tow to China/Russia/Iran? Ultimately, I think that triumverate would fail due to internal pressure, but that's a scary grouping, even for us.
Those are all good points.
It's my view that those guys are happy to play spoiler to US interests but I'm not sure they're ready to hop in bed with each other and seal the deal.
I could be wrong, but that's my view.
I think the biggest difference may be attitude - the Japanese pushed the Chinese around for a long time before WWII.... but then again since Japan is heavily influenced by Westernized culture there may not be that agressive attitude there anymore.... moderation seems to be the prevailing tradition now.
Quote from: MetalDog on August 21, 2012, 10:02:17 PM
China is the big fish in the small pond. If their aggressive rhetoric becomes action, they can take their objectives fairly easily before we can get in there. The Phillipines aren't the home of a mighty American presence anymore. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure if we have any significant forces any closer than Hawaii or Afghanistan.
I'd think that the 7th fleet, along with the Japanese, would give them a headache.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._7th_Fleet
Quote from: Bison on August 20, 2012, 08:06:36 PM
Well Japan might want a real military before pissing in China's Cheerios too often. Of course they (like 3/4 of the freaking "free" world) are depending on American intervention in case of a real conflict.
I wouldnt disregard the Japanese military at all.
Quote from: MetalDog on August 21, 2012, 11:31:51 PM
I have no doubt of the capability of the U.S. military. Ultimately, I think, we would triumph in a Sino-American clash. It's a matter of getting there quick enough, with enough force to do the job, to make China cough up what they have taken.
Now, if you subscribe to the dim picture Bison paints above, things would get hairy fast. Iran, the Norks AND Russia at China's side? How fast would the rest of the world move to stand at OUR side? All the bad blood and ill will our (occasionally) ham handed international diplomacy has stirred up, would that be put to the side? Or would the rest of the world sit out and watch us go down?
I have to imagine the former. If we go, who's next? Would everyone be happy to kow tow to China/Russia/Iran? Ultimately, I think that triumverate would fail due to internal pressure, but that's a scary grouping, even for us.
Iran part of a godless triad???
China and Russia cooperating?
Russia will tidy things up around her borders before doing anythings stupid like backing China over a relatively insignificant 'bit of dirt'
Quote from: Windigo on August 22, 2012, 02:59:24 PM
Quote from: MetalDog on August 21, 2012, 11:31:51 PM
I have no doubt of the capability of the U.S. military. Ultimately, I think, we would triumph in a Sino-American clash. It's a matter of getting there quick enough, with enough force to do the job, to make China cough up what they have taken.
Now, if you subscribe to the dim picture Bison paints above, things would get hairy fast. Iran, the Norks AND Russia at China's side? How fast would the rest of the world move to stand at OUR side? All the bad blood and ill will our (occasionally) ham handed international diplomacy has stirred up, would that be put to the side? Or would the rest of the world sit out and watch us go down?
I have to imagine the former. If we go, who's next? Would everyone be happy to kow tow to China/Russia/Iran? Ultimately, I think that triumverate would fail due to internal pressure, but that's a scary grouping, even for us.
Iran part of a godless triad???
China and Russia cooperating?
Russia will tidy things up around her borders before doing anythings stupid like backing China over a relatively insignificant 'bit of dirt'
Well said.
iran cant do a thing to help China. any of you notice whats between the two?
Russia cant do a damn thing for the next few decades due to the state of its economy and military.
north korea is a sideshow at best. if push came to shove South Korea would be facing reunification
a hell of a lot sooner then it wants to.
China doesnt have the power projection to retake Tiawan let alone screw with Japan.
the only thing China has in its pocket is the worlds debt and a false economy.
the second that ballon goes up we dont owe them a frikin dime and they know it.
they also know that they cant win.
IMO they have more than enough horsepower to take the whole internet and all the e-commerce down with it, not to mention all the infrastructure PLC (Programmable Logic Circuits) control away from us... e.g., Israel's cyber attack on Iran's centrifuges.... that'd fuck us up plenty so we'd not get a free pass bombing China back to the Ming dynasty era
The Chinese need more than one carrier:
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120521/DEFREG03/305210003/China-Build-2-More-Aircraft-Carriers-Taiwan
Then maybe even more, up to six:
http://wareye.com/china-starts-building-the-first-aircraft-carrier-equipped-with-j-15-carrier-based-fighters
Although they will only be as good as their aircraft:
http://defensetech.org/2012/04/25/how-effective-will-chinas-carrier-based-fighters-be/
Though never forget other defensive options:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/07/chinas-df-21d-missile-is-the-worlds-first-one-shot-aircraft-carrier-killer/
there is no one shot carrier killer except a nuke.
Im really not prepared to put much faith in that missile working as advertised either.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on August 23, 2012, 04:18:24 PM
there is no one shot carrier killer except a nuke.
Im really not prepared to put much faith in that missile working as advertised either.
+1 it's entirely theoretical. I don't know of a single successful test that shows the Chinese could hit a carrier-sized target with a conventional ballistic missile payload.
Quote from: mirth on August 23, 2012, 08:09:03 PM
+1 it's entirely theoretical. I don't know of a single successful test that shows the Chinese could hit a carrier
Fixed that for ya ;)
Thanks, LB. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that at least some of their anti-ship missiles work. Not that they'd actually get through the Aegis defenses. :P
Quote from: mirth on August 24, 2012, 06:00:38 AM
Not that they'd actually get through the Aegis defenses. :P
That's really what I was thinking. I'm sure their stuff works. I'm not sure it is ready to take on the USN's entire bag of tricks.
It would depend on how fast the ballistic missile was traveling at approach. It's a safe bet that it would be many times faster than a sea skimmer or other short range shipkiller. Even aegis could have trouble tracking something traveling two miles a second.
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 24, 2012, 08:39:13 AM
It would depend on how fast the ballistic missile was traveling at approach. It's a safe bet that it would be many times faster than a sea skimmer or other short range shipkiller. Even aegis could have trouble tracking something traveling two miles a second.
Yeah, but are ballistic missles "guided" in anyway? "Ballistic Missile" implies fired on a trajectory and hit what's on the end of the ballistic path. If not then just detect and move your carrrier.... ???
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 24, 2012, 08:39:13 AM
It would depend on how fast the ballistic missile was traveling at approach. It's a safe bet that it would be many times faster than a sea skimmer or other short range shipkiller. Even aegis could have trouble tracking something traveling two miles a second.
We have a number of Aegis ships configured for ballistic missile defense. The Japanese have a few of their's set up for it as well. I think it's a fairly proven system with a number of successful tests.
Quote from: Barthheart on August 24, 2012, 08:44:36 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 24, 2012, 08:39:13 AM
It would depend on how fast the ballistic missile was traveling at approach. It's a safe bet that it would be many times faster than a sea skimmer or other short range shipkiller. Even aegis could have trouble tracking something traveling two miles a second.
Yeah, but are ballistic missles "guided" in anyway? "Ballistic Missile" implies fired on a trajectory and hit what's on the end of the ballistic path. If not then just detect and move your carrrier.... ???
True, the terminology is imprecise. Ballistic simply refers to all the actual thrust being used up in the launch phase and the item then travels on inertia. Current ICBMs are much more complex than that. IIRC the Chinese missile is course-correctable by realtime input from local and satellite tracking of targets.
In which case, can such weapons be subject to ECM?