Just got this press release:
QuoteCrusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome is a new expansion which will breathe a dose of hot, spicy, Mediterranean fresh air into the deliciously dark world of the critically acclaimed strategy/RPG, Crusader Kings II. The Byzantine Empire is receiving some tender loving care from Paradox Interactive and Paradox Development Studio with the new expansion pack, which will add a wealth of features to the game and build upon Crusader Kings' glory.
In the rich politics of Byzantium, you'll find your cranky and disgruntled vassals split into factions, which will band together in revolt against your rule (they're getting smarter)! Thankfully, your generals have improved to match them. Legacy of Rome introduces Leader Focus, with generals' skills carrying more importance than ever before. This may prove useful if you have any generals that are (I) competent and (II) not plotting to drown you in a lake.
As for the wealth of features, let's talk about wealth! You'll be able to appoint your very own Orthodox patriarch instead of depending on that miserable old patriarch of Constantinople, plus you'll have greater control over where you demand levies from your vassals, and, of course, indulge in new, Byzantine-specific events and decisions. You'll need your regent to be at the top of their game, so it's a good thing there are now Self-Improvement ambitions for them! It's almost as if not everybody in the kingdom is out to get you.
The last gasp of the Roman Empire is in your hands, dear leader. Try not to screw it up.
This second expansion pack for Crusader Kings II arrives Q4 2012 on all major digital download portals for the suggested retail price of 9,99 USD.
Hrmm.
Gotta admit, I've not messed with any of the Byzantine rulers yet. I suppose that will change soon.
When I read "Mediterranean air," I got very excited. When I got to "Byzantium," the excitement vanished. I've never been a fan of Byzantium. The word Byzantine doesn't mean ponderous and overly confusing for nothing.
Oh, come on, SOM, John Julian Norwich can't be all wrong.
Mutilations, imprisonment, blinding, ransoms, it's all there.
You, too can be Basil the Bulgar Killer. Blinding 99 out of every 100 prisoners, and leaving the hundredth one eye to lead the others back.
What a reputation you can have!
If the game is really free form, think of the creative punishments players like Jarhead and Starfury can improvise!
Jolly good fun, eh what?
Sounds like some interesting things will be add. I am sure I won't be able to pass this one up.
Quote from: besilarius on August 28, 2012, 10:24:11 AM
Oh, come on, SOM, John Julian Norwich can't be all wrong.
Mutilations, imprisonment, blinding, ransoms, it's all there.
You, too can be Basil the Bulgar Killer. Blinding 99 out of every 100 prisoners, and leaving the hundredth one eye to lead the others back.
What a reputation you can have!
If the game is really free form, think of the creative punishments players like Jarhead and Starfury can improvise!
Jolly good fun, eh what?
Have you ever read Luitprand of Cremona's version of the Byzantines? He makes them sound like dissolute lay-abouts. Also, Procopious doesn't paint his own culture in a very good light.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on August 28, 2012, 10:26:12 AM
Quote from: besilarius on August 28, 2012, 10:24:11 AM
Oh, come on, SOM, John Julian Norwich can't be all wrong.
Mutilations, imprisonment, blinding, ransoms, it's all there.
You, too can be Basil the Bulgar Killer. Blinding 99 out of every 100 prisoners, and leaving the hundredth one eye to lead the others back.
What a reputation you can have!
If the game is really free form, think of the creative punishments players like Jarhead and Starfury can improvise!
Jolly good fun, eh what?
Have you ever read Luitprand of Cremona's version of the Byzantines? He makes them sound like dissolute lay-abouts. Also, Procopious doesn't paint his own culture in a very good light.
Anna Comenius makes them sound pretty adventurous. Bohemond (who was part Byzantine IIRC and whose real name was something more Byzantine like "Mark" obviously not "Legendary Giant-Guy" (which is IIC what Bohemond -- a nick-name based on folktales that itself became legendary) didn't mind fighting them or working with them. Anna writes about Bohemond, I think. And of course her father, the Emperor.
After checking in Wikipedia:
Bohemond was nicknamed Bohemond (after the legendary giant Buamundus gigas).
And Anna's father was Alexius I, who was defeated from Dyrrhacium to Orchidius by the youthful Bohemond, red-haired monster
of Anna's adolescent dreams.
Okay, after more checking in Wikipedia:
Bohemond was not red-haired. He was not vain about his hair at all. Had a Norman haircut -- short. Not like your average "barbarian" (says Anna). And that's Anna Comnenius not Comenius (no relation to the Comenius who invented
Kindergarden -- Jan Amos Comenius).
Yikes....I feel like an intellectual dolt, I have no iclue what SOM and others are writing about.....regardless, I'm looking forward to this addition to already great game.
John Julius Norwich's books on Byzantium and Venice are some of my favorites. Always love gaming the Byzantines and reading about them. With a good editor (like for Norwich) the reading is great.
I really, really have to crack CKII open to at least keep abreast of the expansions.
Quote from: Gusington on August 28, 2012, 12:48:36 PM
John Julius Norwich's books on Byzantium and Venice are some of my favorites. Always love gaming the Byzantines and reading about them. With a good editor (like for Norwich) the reading is great.
I really, really have to crack CKII open to at least keep abreast of the expansions.
Yep. It has now become clear to me that I will try to play CKII at some time in the next year or so, after Alea Jacta Est and CM: FI.
It would be nice to try to run a Bohemond-like train of events -- which reminds one that:
the first crusaders were not kings
their allies and foes included Christian Emperors (eg. Alexius I)
and muslims like Ghazi Gümüştekin of Sivas (who also was an ally of sorts -- thanks Wikipedia!).
^On that note, this game is making me interested reading up on the initial military spread of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries. That's why I love gaming...brings to life eras and events that my own imagination would never come up with alone!
When I played CK I, I played the Byzants almost exclusively.
They rock!
The most intriguing time, to me, for the East Romans (they never called themselves Byzantines) was the wars between the PErsians and Heraclius.
If they hadn't fought for years, and to exhaustion, then Islam could not have come on like a tidal wave.
It hit the two empires while they were both played out from their own war. As a result, it was easy pickings in Persia, totally bowled them over and out.
The East Romans lost everything south of modern day Turkey, Egypt and north africa.
If the two ancient foes were not worn to nubs, how far could the Islamic expansion have gone?
I still haven't picked up the Islam expansion.
I keep tinkering with the game, but I find I'm still fighting with my unfamiliarity with the system more than anything. Someday it'll click....someday.
Quote from: besilarius on August 28, 2012, 07:25:47 PM
The most intriguing time, to me, for the East Romans (they never called themselves Byzantines) was the wars between the PErsians and Heraclius.
If they hadn't fought for years, and to exhaustion, then Islam could not have come on like a tidal wave.
It hit the two empires while they were both played out from their own war. As a result, it was easy pickings in Persia, totally bowled them over and out.
The East Romans lost everything south of modern day Turkey, Egypt and north africa.
If the two ancient foes were not worn to nubs, how far could the Islamic expansion have gone?
It's a neglected period -- perhaps because it really is a very strange time. I mean the time of Heraclitus was odd.
For one thing the 6th century (ie just before Heraclitus) is pretty strange. Recent historians have said things about it such as
"in 500 AD you still have the Ancient World, by 600 it is completely gone." Perhaps the big plague of the 540s did most of that
damage.
So, with the clock ticking on the "Ancient World" (particularly its biggest remains, Sassanid Persia and the East Romans), it was
probably just a matter of time before something like the Islamic expansion occurred. You could even argue that Islam was
a relatively non-cataclysmic (sp!) way for Persia to collapse. Certainly civilization didn't crash as completely in the Levant as it did in
say the British Isles, Gaul, and Iberia in the Collapse of the Western Empire.
But that still leaves the even more puzzling case of the East Romans. How on earth did they survive the 7th century much less for
another 800 years? One answer seems to be they always seem to have had plenty of cash. Heraclitus notoriously had as much
gold stripped from churches (and temples? were there any left? There were still plenty of antique monuments and spolia in Constantinople) as he could and apparently he had a lot of mercenaries such as Franks.
Well. it all seems very odd to me.
As someone with at least a modest interest in Byzantium, I'll almost certainly be getting this.
Jeng, the thing about the sudden explosion of Islam to me is was it pure happenstance?
Or did the leadership realise their opportunity and jump at the best time?
Realistically, as much as the Romans and Persians loathed each other, they had an ancient understanding.
If the Arab onslaught began even five years earlier, would the two ancient enemies have patched up a truce to face this upstart heresy?
I know it's a strange question, but as you noted, those were strange times.
Can anyone recommend some books on Byzantium vs. the spread of Islam? I have found a few but they are not highly reviewed.
Quote from: besilarius on August 29, 2012, 07:50:26 PM
Jeng, the thing about the sudden explosion of Islam to me is was it pure happenstance?
Or did the leadership realise their opportunity and jump at the best time?
Realistically, as much as the Romans and Persians loathed each other, they had an ancient understanding.
If the Arab onslaught began even five years earlier, would the two ancient enemies have patched up a truce to face this upstart heresy?
I know it's a strange question, but as you noted, those were strange times.
I'm not sure how the Persians and East Romans viewed each other. They seem to have imitiated each other, though by the time
Heraclitus took Cteisphon and saw the incredible cosmic model where the King of Kings could have himself elevated into
a working model of the heavens, it was kind of an extreme case of desperate Rag-tag army (the East Romans) versus Zoroastrian
Empire. I don't think the East Romans and the Persians could have faced anything at all by the time the Arabs came whirling out of the desert but more because they invested in sanctifying their particular heirarchies rather than adapting to rapidly changing cicumstances. For one thing the Iconoclasm of Mohammed's message was something that a majority of inhabitants of the two Image-heavy Empires would have found refreshing (see Judith Herrin's Formation of Christendom):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Herrin
Quote from: Martok on August 29, 2012, 02:07:07 PM
As someone with at least a modest interest in Byzantium, I'll almost certainly be getting this.
Well, I was going to wait for the Byzantines, but undercovergeeks brilliant AAR was such a good read that I decided to
get into the game. I've had 4 months of the life of Emmo of Loon (yep. He's there alright). I figured Loon is where
the 101st Airborne landed during marketgarden so I must have seen some of Emmo's lineage's fortifications in their
1944 versions in Where Eagles dare.
Fortunately for Emmo, I was playing on VERY EASY so things went okay. Everyone got married and nobody but maybe some
Pagan Pomeranians got killed (outside of a bloodbath of some kind in Switzerland).
Lessons learned: Don't be arbitrary and Craven
Acquiring a 16-year-old wife who is a military genius and ace administrator can double your firepower and
triple your administrative things.
Ambitions thwarted: I'd like to have Winifred take the army and smash some non-Loons, but I apparently can't dismiss myself from
command so I have to take whatever advice she can give when we go after the Pomeranians (Pagan dogs!).
Anyway the Army went to Pomerania without me or Winifred. 16 of Bishop Iacco's troops are wandering through Loon.
A lot happened in 4 months in Loon.
The Loonies are loose! :P
Quote from: Nefaro on August 30, 2012, 11:19:57 AM
The Loonies are loose! :P
Loon was fun, but I think I'll try a different approach on my next forray into CKII.
The first two development diaries have been posted. Day 1 purchase for, even if it does look like most of the major system changes will be in the v1.07 patch. Anything that makes the Byzantines more interesting is a good thing IMO. Right now they seem like a mirror image of their western counter parts.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?630854-Crusader-Kings-II-Legacy-of-Rome-Dev-Diary-0-Clearing-the-Fog-of-War (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?630854-Crusader-Kings-II-Legacy-of-Rome-Dev-Diary-0-Clearing-the-Fog-of-War)
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?632212-Legacy-of-Rome-Dev-Diary-1&p=14341778#post14341778 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?632212-Legacy-of-Rome-Dev-Diary-1&p=14341778#post14341778)
QuoteLEGACY OF ROME DLC
Retinue system. If you don't have the DLC, you won't see the new interface and you cannot hire retinues (and neither will the AI.) The technology that controls the max size of your retinue and relative decrease of normal levy sizes simply does not have this effect without the DLC.
Orthodox Councillor models
Major Decisions for the Byzantine Empire
Byzantine Events
Oh, and we're taking another tack with the DLC this around - if you don't own the DLC, the AI won't be using the new mechanics or events either. Also, from now on in multiplayer mode, the host will control which DLCs are active.
PATCH 1.07
Faction system. Replaces many existing plots and normal revolt mechanics with factions.
Personal Improvement Ambitions
Orthodox Patriarch system
Have both a Plot and an Ambition at the same time
Revised levy raising. (You raise a single, large levy from each direct vassal. The opinions of vassals of vassals are irrelevant.)
Leader Focus on Combat
More Cultural Buildings
Improved AI
Bug fixes (of course)
Quote from: MengJiao on August 29, 2012, 09:21:44 AM
You could even argue that Islam was a relatively non-cataclysmic (sp!) way for Persia to collapse. Certainly civilization didn't crash as completely in the Levant as it did insay the British Isles, Gaul, and Iberia in the Collapse of the Western Empire.
But that still leaves the even more puzzling case of the East Romans. How on earth did they survive the 7th century much less for
another 800 years? One answer seems to be they always seem to have had plenty of cash. Heraclitus notoriously had as much
gold stripped from churches (and temples? were there any left? There were still plenty of antique monuments and spolia in Constantinople) as he could and apparently he had a lot of mercenaries such as Franks.
Well. it all seems very odd to me.
I wouldn't say that society completely collapsed in the Western Empire. Certain bits of "roman-ness" still survived, even if translated through the rule of the Germanic minority. Heraclius was sort of a wild emperor and he managed to weaken the Sassinids enough that they were fairly easy pickings for the Muslim invaders. I'm not sure I buy the argument that the Muslims were "refreshing" for their lack of use of images, but the Byzantines did respond to Muslim success by a sudden and violent wave of Iconoclasm (it was rapidly ended and they went back to their old ways).
Byzantium had an amazing tactical position and gigantic (nigh impregnable) city walls. They also had a decent navy, something which the Muslim invaders had not yet developed. Remember, Byzantium had tons of cash flowing in from the east (on the Silk Road) and eventually from the West, once trade picked back up in the 700s-900s. Like all cities in the Early Middle Ages, Byzantium declined in population and prestige, so one had to assume that the once massive city was as shell of itself during this time. I suppose it survived by going slightly "dormant," letting the rural population fend for itself, then regrowing again in the 10th to 12th centuries (like much of the West). The Arabs occupied themselves with other conquests (India, Spain, North Africa) and were themselves fractured by internecine struggles during the transitions between Caliphates. I think the Arabs felt that Byzantium was more trouble than it was worth, and that Spain and North Africa were easier pickings (who knows what they thought of India, but it certainly had wealth and allure).
SOm if you aren't inclined to read through Norwich;s work on the East Romans, your university should have a copy of CWC Oman's Art of War in the Middle Ages. Preferably the two volume work.
The section on the Byzantine army is quite good.
Once the DLC is out I will also be reading The Life of Belisarius
I requested an inter-library loan of that Turkish Siege of Constantinpole film at the library. I'll pick it up on Wednesday.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on September 16, 2012, 10:12:37 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on August 29, 2012, 09:21:44 AM
You could even argue that Islam was a relatively non-cataclysmic (sp!) way for Persia to collapse. Certainly civilization didn't crash as completely in the Levant as it did insay the British Isles, Gaul, and Iberia in the Collapse of the Western Empire.
But that still leaves the even more puzzling case of the East Romans. How on earth did they survive the 7th century much less for
another 800 years? One answer seems to be they always seem to have had plenty of cash. Heraclitus notoriously had as much
gold stripped from churches (and temples? were there any left? There were still plenty of antique monuments and spolia in Constantinople) as he could and apparently he had a lot of mercenaries such as Franks.
Well. it all seems very odd to me.
I wouldn't say that society completely collapsed in the Western Empire. Certain bits of "roman-ness" still survived, even if translated through the rule of the Germanic minority. Heraclius was sort of a wild emperor and he managed to weaken the Sassinids enough that they were fairly easy pickings for the Muslim invaders. I'm not sure I buy the argument that the Muslims were "refreshing" for their lack of use of images, but the Byzantines did respond to Muslim success by a sudden and violent wave of Iconoclasm (it was rapidly ended and they went back to their old ways).
Byzantium had an amazing tactical position and gigantic (nigh impregnable) city walls. They also had a decent navy, something which the Muslim invaders had not yet developed. Remember, Byzantium had tons of cash flowing in from the east (on the Silk Road) and eventually from the West, once trade picked back up in the 700s-900s. Like all cities in the Early Middle Ages, Byzantium declined in population and prestige, so one had to assume that the once massive city was as shell of itself during this time.
There was also a rash of earthquakes on Crete -- called the Early Byzantine Paroyxsm (EBP if you want to avoid spelling paroyxsm as much as I want to avoid spelling paroyxsm).
Quote from: besilarius on September 16, 2012, 10:59:20 PM
SOm if you aren't inclined to read through Norwich;s work on the East Romans, your university should have a copy of CWC Oman's Art of War in the Middle Ages. Preferably the two volume work.
The section on the Byzantine army is quite good.
If I wasn't working on an article, I certainly would. But I'll be reading up on the medieval notion of "public good" in relationship to private property.
Do a review SDR!
Quote from: Nefaro on August 30, 2012, 11:19:57 AM
The Loonies are loose! :P
Say, it looks like this DLC is coming out on Oct 16.
Quote from: MengJiao on October 09, 2012, 11:45:00 AM
Quote from: Nefaro on August 30, 2012, 11:19:57 AM
The Loonies are loose! :P
Say, it looks like this DLC is coming out on Oct 16.
That's good news. About the time my first x-com campaign should be finishing up. I think most of the main mechanic changes, except retinues and the Byzantine events, are in the v1.07 patch.
Crap I can't keep up with all these releases.
Quote from: Gusington on October 09, 2012, 06:10:09 PM
Crap I can't keep up with all these releases.
My wallet can't either.
Once I finish Dishonored and Dawnguard and finish another campaign of Warlock and Third Age Total War...I have to decide between a Byzantine 'learning' campaign in CKII, a learning campaign of AJE, or a learning campaign of Northern Crusades. My head hurts.
I'm regretting taking the end of this week off from work. I should have done it next week so I could play both X-Com and CK2.
It has been released.
Release vid here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovRgvkf_oyo&hd=1
Main Features in Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome and patch 1.07
- New Faction System: Join a royal faction and use your allies in the party to enhance your strength and tear down rivals
- Raise Standing Armies: You will now be able to use retinues to have standing armies in your domain: the size of which is determined by technology
- Experience Factional Revolts: No more easily defeated rebellions. Disgruntled vassals will now band together in revolt against your rule through their faction
- Experience Factional Revolts: No more easily defeated rebellions. Disgruntled vassals will now band together in revolt against your rule through their faction
- Streamlined Mobilization: You will always raise a single, larger levy from your direct vassal; no need to worry about the opinions of the lower vassals
- Leader Focus on Combat: Appoint your generals wisely, their traits and skills are now of vital importance on the field of battle. More commander traits are now added to increase the importance of your choice of military leaders
- Byzantium Comes Alive: New sets of decisions and events specifically designed with the Byzantine Empire in mind
- Improve your ruler: You can now actively strive to improve your skills or traits through the new Self-Improvement Ambitions
^ looks like the Byzantium expansion really lives up to Byzantine factional struggles, according to that list. ;)
I went a little nuts and spent some Blue Coins on "upgrading" CKII with all manner of songs, dynastic shields, and faces. Looks like I might put XCOM down for a bit to get some more CKII in.
picked up the expansion and the dlc's. also picked up their midweek madness sale dungeon defenders with all the dlc as well!
Is the new Byzantine DLC available on Steam yet? I haven't seen it. Undercover geek said he was able to purchase it in-game so I may do that.
Quote from: Gusington on October 16, 2012, 01:58:10 PM
Is the new Byzantine DLC available on Steam yet? I haven't seen it. Undercover geek said he was able to purchase it in-game so I may do that.
Yes. Check the news section.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on October 09, 2012, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: Gusington on October 09, 2012, 06:10:09 PM
Crap I can't keep up with all these releases.
My wallet can't either.
With Cataphracts and Attila coming by mail and AJE and CK2: LoR -- should be a very Byzantine week or two.
Thanks JH I got it and purchased the other little Byzantine baubles the had on sale too.
Does anyone know if you don't purchase the expansion will your game get the core updates via a patch?
Quote from: TheCommandTent on October 16, 2012, 06:52:38 PM
Does anyone know if you don't purchase the expansion will your game get the core updates via a patch?
Yes, patches are indenpendent of DLC so you can download the latest 1.07, regardless of what DLC you have. However, I am guessing that possibly some of the patch contents may only be applicable to different DLC packs.
What if you skip DLC? If I want Byzantium but not Islam, how's that work?
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on October 16, 2012, 07:14:25 PM
What if you skip DLC? If I want Byzantium but not Islam, how's that work?
I don't think you need Islam for Byzantium
Quote from: TheCommandTent on October 16, 2012, 06:52:38 PM
Does anyone know if you don't purchase the expansion will your game get the core updates via a patch?
some features are missing if you dont buy the DLC but take the 107 patch - i think being able to improve your character is missing, but factions are in
if you read the dev diaries for the DLC - i think there are 6 - noted in the first paragraph is whether it will work without the DLC in 1.07
Incidentally, the specs say this game will run on XP. Is that XP service pack 3? Or will SP2 work? (My computer probably doesn't have enough moxie to upgrade to Win7, and SP3 used to simply permanently deactivate my internet: now it blue-screens my computer outright. :P)
Can anyone confirm or deny?
I've only had a chance to play for a few hours. So far I really like the faction system, nice not seeing all of Italy and half of Germany declare war on day 1 of the game. Although, the independence faction seems to be a popular group. Wonder what that group does when they get together.....
Quote from: JasonPratt on October 17, 2012, 11:34:48 AM
Incidentally, the specs say this game will run on XP. Is that XP service pack 3? Or will SP2 work? (My computer probably doesn't have enough moxie to upgrade to Win7, and SP3 used to simply permanently deactivate my internet: now it blue-screens my computer outright. :P)
Can anyone confirm or deny?
I don't know, as I've not used WinXP in a few years. I would hope that if a game says it would work on XP, that it works on SP2 because SP3 was a picky troublesome mess.
I even recall attempting to upgrade a customer's Dell to SP3, a few years ago, and it refused to do so because (I find out after some investigation) the cheap Dell hard drive model in it was "incompatible". I'd never seen or heard that BS before, it's something that just doesn't happen between service packs. An IDE hard drive is about as standard as hardware goes, back then. But my point is that I've also seen some odd issues with updating to SP3 and I'd hope that someone wouldn't have some OS check in their installer that blacklists an SP2 and quits out of the installer because of it.
But that's been done before, so perhaps asking around on the Pdox forums could scare an SP2 user up?
Thanks, Nefaro. This was a high-spec Falcon Northwest rig (for its day), so it couldn't be incompatible due to crappy hardware, but it might be incompatible due to the hardware being a bit too specialized.
Quote from: Kushan on October 17, 2012, 09:47:52 PM
I've only had a chance to play for a few hours. So far I really like the faction system, nice not seeing all of Italy and half of Germany declare war on day 1 of the game. Although, the independence faction seems to be a popular group. Wonder what that group does when they get together.....
I played a couple of hours as the Overpowered Byzantines in 1066. It was pretty cool to have retinues to choose from. I took skirmishers
cuz they were the cheapest. After I crush the Turks (so far so good), I'll get all kinds of retinues.
It was also kind of fun to be in a CKII game rated as very easy (Byzantium 1066), though of course I still have the Turks hammering at me.
Hey, just a heads up that you can save 25% off the Legacy of Rome DLC if you haven't picked it up already (and have the Steam version of CK2!). I just picked it up from Amazon. I used the 25% off code SQRLUVOC from their Absolutely Great Square Pack fiasco (they ran out of keys early so gave out a code for 25% off a digital game download (w/a few exceptions)). I just grabbed the Steam code Amazon gave me and it installed just fine. Saved me all of $1.24 :P
Did they change it so you can't declare war to press a weak claim? I noticed I had a weak claim to the Duchy of Swabia, but when I go to declare war it says I don't have a casus belli.