this was some pretty good news to start the day off with. :bd:
I don't think it was the greatest exchange but probably the best that was going to happen all things considered.
I am personally not enthused about the trade. If it were you or me in a Russian prison, you can bet your ass that Griner, Lebron James, and whoever else would be sleeping like babies and not lifting a finger or spending a dollar to help you. The fact that we released a f#!$ing notorious arms dealer for a basketball player who knowingly broke the law in a foreign country (which had a travel warning for 2 years, by the way) is just absurd. Who in their right mind thought that was a fair trade? It also sets a really, really bad precedent that Russia can just nab American citizens and use them as bargaining chips to get what they want.
Terrible move all around IMO, but I guess I'm happy for Griner and her family.
Not a big fan of this either.
Mostly because I think it encourages Putin to just keep arresting any poor soul with a US passport that he can get his hands on.
But as a small exercise in realpolitik I guess I can hold my nose and hope for the best.
A more palatable trade would have been for the extradition of Snowden IMHO.
Still, I am happy for Ms. Griner and her family.
Maybe she'll stand for the national anthem before WNBA games now? :-"
Welcome home.
Strange story. Andria Mitchell this morning reported that Putin gave Biden a choice between Griner and Paul Wheylan, the ex-marine doing time for espionage. However after Biden went on TV to announce Griner's release, he claimed the choice was Brittany or nothing despite saying the deal was the result of, 'intense and prolonged negotiations'. NBC Then changed their reporting to Griner being the only deal Putin would go for.
The WH Press Secretary later added Griner had to be the one exchanged because of her historic role model for the LGBTQ+ Community and black women. At this point I don't have a clue what went on but I agree with Al, this was a terrible deal that sends home a man responsible for causing the deaths of tens of thousands. He should've rot in prison instead.
fwiw he wont be alive by this time next year. :bd:
I have to admit I love some of the comments I've seen on various malignant social media platforms.
"Who negotiated this trade? The Cleveland Browns?"
I'm happy for Griner and her family. Like others here, I'm lukewarm about the trade. My sense is that any negotiation with the Russians in a situation like this, for the release of American innocents, is fraught with risk--risk of doing too much, risk of doing too little, etc. There is never a perfect resolution in sight for these sorts of negotiations.
Whelan is an interesting story. I'd love to see him released. My understanding is that the Russians wanted us to release a spy of their's (in German custody) for a "spy of ours". The Germans wouldn't budge, and it's not clear to me that Whelan was ever on the table (although I'm sure various news sources out there claim he was, while others deny it).
Apparently, Whelan was dishonorably discharged from the Marines. He was working as a private contractor for a security firm when he was arrested in Russia. None of which means he is guilty of what the Russians accuse him of. The notion that we continued to play nice-nice with Russia these last 15 years is pretty disgusting. People who point to only the other side's politicians in this regard are gaslighting themselves and the rest of us.
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on December 13, 2022, 08:50:23 PM
Apparently, Whelan was dishonorably discharged from the Marines. He was working as a private contractor for a security firm when he was arrested in Russia. None of which means he is guilty of what the Russians accuse him of. The notion that we continued to play nice-nice with Russia these last 15 years is pretty disgusting. People who point to only the other side's politicians in this regard are gaslighting themselves and the rest of us.
While I may be splitting hairs, Whelan wasn't "dishonorably discharged". Rather, he received a Bad Conduct Discharge, or BCD, which although certainly punitive, is not quite as severe as a dishonorable discharge in character. Apparently, his separation was due to various financial crimes (ie. writing bad checks, using a false SS number, attempting to steal more than $10,000 while at Al Asad Airbase in Iraq etc.). At the time of his crimes he was a Staff Sergeant. I've had a hard time finding any context for why he may have made poor life decision. i mean, he also served in law enforcement for over 2 decades.
I'm long removed from giving everyone who serves the greater good a default halo.
I think his charges are cooked and he deserves to be brought home.
I agree Wheylan got set-up by the Russkies and doesn't deserve time in the Russian Penal System. But dumb as I am, I wouldn't go to my own wedding in Russia and if I did, I damned sure wouldn't take anything anybody gave me even if it was 21 years old, blonde, and had a six-pack under each arm. :coolsmiley:
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 13, 2022, 09:15:07 PM
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on December 13, 2022, 08:50:23 PM
Apparently, Whelan was dishonorably discharged from the Marines. He was working as a private contractor for a security firm when he was arrested in Russia. None of which means he is guilty of what the Russians accuse him of. The notion that we continued to play nice-nice with Russia these last 15 years is pretty disgusting. People who point to only the other side's politicians in this regard are gaslighting themselves and the rest of us.
While I may be splitting hairs, Whelan wasn't "dishonorably discharged". Rather, he received a Bad Conduct Discharge, or BCD, which although certainly punitive, is not quite as severe as a dishonorable discharge in character. Apparently, his separation was due to various financial crimes (ie. writing bad checks, using a false SS number, attempting to steal more than $10,000 while at Al Asad Airbase in Iraq etc.). At the time of his crimes he was a Staff Sergeant. I've had a hard time finding any context for why he may have made poor life decision. i mean, he also served in law enforcement for over 2 decades.
Agreed 100% and thanks for the clarification on the BCD. I wasn't trying to besmirch his name. Just suggesting that we have different unknowns hiding under different rocks. I only meant to call attention to the things we don't know in Whelan's case.
I know from time spent overseas that there are a lot of shady expats living abroad for questionable reasons. But I'm also confident that the Russian government is rotten to the core. I have no such convictions about Mr. Whelan.
As for Sir Slash's statement about getting married in Russia, I'd only offer two clarifications: They're not all blondes and they're more likely to be carrying hard liquor than six packs! ;)
;D
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 13, 2022, 11:39:30 PM
I agree Wheylan got set-up by the Russkies
I wouldn't go that far. My FSO/DOD buddies all agree he was likely working third party "plausible deniability" jobs that a few of them had worked before. That's not a knock on Whelan, if he was doing spy work for a third party in Russia then good on him, he knew the risks and was doing the job and got caught. The way things used to work there'd just be an exchange and everyone would typically go about their business.
I don't know if that's what happened here but I go by what my sometimes factually loose connections in the world say. Essentially that he was doing a third party job, got caught, and should've been exchanged a long time ago. Putin's changing the calculus on this to turn kidnapping into a business.
And thus the set-up. He was a perfect target to grab in order to swap for his buddy the Death Merchant. It was clearly a sting operation to nab him. Whether or not he actually was doing an espionage job we may never know for sure. Or, who sent him. Powerful people in Washington may not want Wheylan back to talk. I hope he at least got a piece of Wedding Cake.