Have you guys been following this story? The more you look into it, the more insane it gets. The thing was a total death trap apparently assembled from makeshift parts and controlled with a PlayStation controller. :HideEyes:
Just to add to the insanity, they were bolted in from the outside with no way to get out without an external crew letting them out.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872
Oh wow, that's terrible. I heard a report on the radio this morning that there is enough emergency oxygen to last until Thursday morning. I hope they find them.
recent reporting say the titanics own debris field will confuse any search as the sub wont stand out on a sonar sweep of the floor - has it got a 'transponder'?
nope
Nightmare situation.
Totally insane. I would leave the ghosts of the Titanic to rest in peace.
Quote from: al_infierno on June 19, 2023, 10:46:59 PMHave you guys been following this story? The more you look into it, the more insane it gets. The thing was a total death trap apparently assembled from makeshift parts and controlled with a PlayStation controller.
Just to add to the insanity, they were bolted in from the outside with no way to get out without an external crew letting them out.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872
Charging $250,000 a seat, so they could have afforded a more sophisticated controller. :idiot2:
Sounds like whatever happened, may have happened early in their descent; losing comms less than 2 hours into an 8 hour descent.
Sweet merciful crap
I mean we know OceanGate cut corners on safety because the CEO specifically said they did and fired an employee who tried to blow the whistle on serious structural issues.
The CEO who is down there.
ya those people are dead.
That deep they might as well have crashed on the moon.
Might even be worse than that.
I hope for their sake the sub imploded and didn't just settle intact.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on June 20, 2023, 10:53:02 PMya those people are dead.
Yeah, from what I've read the most likely and best case scenario is that they all died instantly when the submersible imploded due to faulty engineering around the time they stopped pinging and lost contact.
Canadian rescuers have detected banging sounds every 30 minutes this morning - us navy on way
The story broke whilst I was talking to my dad about a really strongly supported theory Id read about that the wreck isn't the titanic it's the Olympic - all part of a big insurance scam by white star
Quote from: undercovergeek on June 21, 2023, 02:05:39 AMCanadian rescuers have detected banging sounds every 30 minutes this morning - us navy on way
Dang. If that's them, it'd still take a miracle to rescue them. :undecided:
As for the Olympic theory, I don't have links offhand but I'm quite sure that's been thoroughly debunked.
If it's not them... :huh:
Quote from: steve58 on June 20, 2023, 01:26:52 PMQuote from: al_infierno on June 19, 2023, 10:46:59 PMHave you guys been following this story? The more you look into it, the more insane it gets. The thing was a total death trap apparently assembled from makeshift parts and controlled with a PlayStation controller.
Just to add to the insanity, they were bolted in from the outside with no way to get out without an external crew letting them out.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872
Charging $250,000 a seat, so they could have afforded a more sophisticated controller. :idiot2:
Sounds like whatever happened, may have happened early in their descent; losing comms less than 2 hours into an 8 hour descent.
:TimeOut: Apparently I was wrong. :doh: Descent to the Titanic only take 2 hours and comms were lost at 1hr 45min.
p.s. This article (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65602182) shows the first full-sized digital scans of the Titanic. Easy to see how the sub could get caught up on/in something down there.
QuoteStockton Rush, the CEO and founder of OceanGate Expeditions was confirmed to be aboard the company's missing tourist sub, the company confirmed on Tuesday (20 June).
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stockton-rush-oceangate-submarine-titanic-b2361176.html
Quote from: Gusington on June 21, 2023, 08:14:04 AMIf it's not them... :huh:
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
:cthulhu_smiley:
^That's what I am very afraid of.
Anybody got Prince Namor's number?
of all the problems this sub could have the controller is the least of them.
Another thing they were apparently worried about is "ghost nets," or loose fishing nets floating around in the ocean. I understand running into one of those would be a death sentence for this type of submersible.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on June 21, 2023, 12:37:08 PMof all the problems this sub could have the controller is the least of them.
Apparently the controller they used costs $30 on Amazon and has reviews complaining about spotty reliability :HideEyes:
Anybody else find it a tad ironic that the Titanic's down there because the Captain put performance above Safety, and now 111years later....
A debris field has been discovered near the Titanic. I assume that this is a previously unknown debris field. Apparently, there will be a press conference a 1500 (likely EST) today. https://justthenews.com/nation/technology/debris-field-discovered-area-near-titanic-amid-search-missing-oceangate-sub-coast?utm_source=breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter
To be fair and for the sake of argument, if found intact and with signs of life inside, just how would they have been rescued? I think (and I could be wrong here, may just be military hardware or I'm high on something) most subs made have standardized hatch fittings so rescue vehicles can attach and take on personnel - and even then, there were limits to effectiveness - but obviously this sub had none of those things.
Quote from: Dammit Carl! on June 22, 2023, 12:26:20 PMTo be fair and for the sake of argument, if found intact and with signs of life inside, just how would they have been rescued? I think (and I could be wrong here, may just be military hardware or I'm high on something) most subs made have standardized hatch fittings so rescue vehicles can attach and take on personnel - and even then, there were limits to effectiveness - but obviously this sub had none of those things.
I don't think they could have been rescued, even if found. The only way to do it would have been to lift the sub off the ocean floor and float it to the surface.
Quote from: Tripoli on June 22, 2023, 12:45:03 PMQuote from: Dammit Carl! on June 22, 2023, 12:26:20 PMTo be fair and for the sake of argument, if found intact and with signs of life inside, just how would they have been rescued? I think (and I could be wrong here, may just be military hardware or I'm high on something) most subs made have standardized hatch fittings so rescue vehicles can attach and take on personnel - and even then, there were limits to effectiveness - but obviously this sub had none of those things.
I don't think they could have been rescued, even if found. The only way to do it would have been to lift the sub off the ocean floor and float it to the surface.
Interestingly, the sub had some kind of floatation failsafe that would carry it to the surface in the event of an emergency. But even if that functioned perfectly, they painted the damn thing white so it would be just about impossible to spot by plane anyways.
(https://i.imgflip.com/ihebz.jpg)
Quote from: Tripoli on June 22, 2023, 12:45:03 PMI don't think they could have been rescued, even if found. The only way to do it would have been to lift the sub off the ocean floor and float it to the surface.
Yeah, that was going to be the problem.
They were actually bolted into the sub, there was no way to marry a rescue vehicle to the the hull and offload the crew.
I saw a couple of articles that said they were trying to get remote deep dive vehicles into the area that could theoretically attach a cable and possibly pull the sub up, but feasibly the process to even begin to realistically do that would take longer than the reserve oxygen.
As I said before, in that situation implosion was the more merciful way to go. Looks like that's what happened.
Wreckage belonging to the missing sub confirmed found 1600 feet from the Titanic shipwreck. USCG is saying the sub sank due to an implosion. All hands lost. At least it would have been quick. RIP.
https://justthenews.com/events/coast-guard-confirms-titanic-sub-marine-passenger-crew-dead
Quote from: Tripoli on June 22, 2023, 02:44:15 PMWreckage belonging to the missing sub confirmed found 1600 feet from the Titanic shipwreck. USCG is saying the sub sank due to an implosion. All hands lost. At least it would have be quick. RIP.
https://justthenews.com/events/coast-guard-confirms-titanic-sub-marine-passenger-crew-dead
RIP.
Well, the life of an adventurer was never said to be one without risk.
In the words of the Kurgan "It's better to burn out than fade away".
RIP.
May they rest in peace. :sad:
Sounds like the US Navy may have heard the implosion on Sunday.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-top-secret-acoustic-system-day-vessel-went-missing
Damn. RIP. Too horrific for my landlubber brain to contemplate.
I feel for the kid. He was legitimately terrified to get on the death sub and felt pressured from his father who was obsessed with the titanic. That's some bleak shit.
Quote from: Groggy on June 22, 2023, 10:16:43 PMI feel for the kid. He was legitimately terrified to get on the death sub and felt pressured from his father who was obsessed with the titanic. That's some bleak shit.
Yeah, that was the worst part. Grim.
Quote from: Groggy on June 22, 2023, 10:16:43 PMI feel for the kid. He was legitimately terrified to get on the death sub and felt pressured from his father who was obsessed with the titanic. That's some bleak shit.
Saw that too, apparently the trip was a Father's Day promise. :undecided: Really sad. The others at least seemed to live a full life beforehand.
James Cameron talked about the incident in an interview (being an experienced and respected member of the deep sea exploration community) and he said that apparently the sub had utilized its emergency floatation devices prior to implosion, which seems to evidence that they were aware of an emergency and attempt to avert it :undecided:
if it aint Woods Hole or USN Im not getting in a sub that isnt tied to a pier.
Poor kid; deserved better.
So, now comes the legislature for "adventure tourism," (as I'm calling it) if accidents in the past have shown us anything. What shape(s) do we see the legislature coming as?
personally I dont think that civilians should be allowed access to sites like these.
Leaving aside any related political dispute -- there's an interesting security dispute about the US government not revealing we heard the implosion and quickly figuring out what it was (no doubt due to sonalysis and positional triangulation), yet leaving people strung along for several days hoping that there might be a rescue, which included several organizations mobilizing at cost to hustle out there.
Would revealing what we already knew, really have been too much of a security breach about our capabilities? If so, why eventually reveal how and when we already knew? Seems like it should be pretty standard capability well-known by now, anyway. :huh:
here ya go Jason.
the tweet:
https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1672241884876374021
and the combined thread.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1672241884876374021.html
Thanks, I like Brynn's military analyses.
Triangulation I accounted for, though not sound propagation and distortion (e.g. due to the saline layer, too long since I played sub games) -- though again multiple detections would get horizontal and vertical bearings for generating box boundaries. How many sub-implosion signatures could be expected within that box, aside from the Titan, and also not expected to be identified by other means fairly quickly? Multiple acquisition would also reduce (at least somewhat) mistaken identity from geologic noise.
I expected the waterfall to match at least computer profiles for implosion effects, and Brynn suggests that probably did happen. Although then again, the unusual materials for the Titan could have affected standard profile recognition. Then again, bubbles (as Brynn suggests) might be detected rising (and traveling somewhat laterally).
The hustle was of course correct, even if all evidence was 'consistent with'. I get that; looking back at my post, my wording was bad for what I was intending -- I'd still be in favor of multiple groups hustling out there, just in case!
I wouldn't have thought there would be any usefully new information gleaned from a platform (largely) declassified since 1991 (and studied as much as possible by our enemies, and allies, before then), by an announcement that the Navy has checked its sensor platform logs and found detection evidence 'consistent with' the sub's implosion in the marginal vicinity box of the sub's expected location (and not going into detail how that evidence was acquired).
If I was a family member, I would have wanted to know as much of the probabilities as possible as soon as possible, and generally why I should expect x to be probably true, so long as security wasn't compromised; and I still don't see why a general announcement without methodology details (not even mentioning SOSUS as a detection platform for example), would have compromised any security. Iran might not know yet that World War I-era passive sonar applications are possible, and used by the United States (perhaps also other nations), but who cares if they finally catch up to knowledge about mid-1910s naval tech this way?
But maybe the DoD was erring on the side of caution toward any families who would rather not know the likelihoods sooner. It's horrible for everyone. :sad:
I've read somewhere that the teen boy knew how sketchy the company's tech and construction was on the sub, and was terrified about being put in there, but had made a promise to his dad on Father's Day to go (or something like that). I hope that was only a rumor...
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 27, 2023, 12:15:02 PMI've read somewhere that the teen boy knew how sketchy the company's tech and construction was on the sub, and was terrified about being put in there, but had made a promise to his dad on Father's Day to go (or something like that). I hope that was only a rumor...
Saw this in multiple reports as well. Can't imagine how angry and devastated the mother must be. :undecided:
Couldn't it also be the case that since the implosion happened hours *before* anyone from the Titan's mothership called the authorities for help, the recordings of the event were already filed away and only later retrieved after the Navy had diligently sifted through the ungodly amount of sonar data they had collected in the hours before and after the alert went out?
Im pretty sure the SOSUS kit is a lot more advanced then WW1-1910s tech.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 27, 2023, 05:22:32 PMCouldn't it also be the case that since the implosion happened hours *before* anyone from the Titan's mothership called the authorities for help, the recordings of the event were already filed away and only later retrieved after the Navy had diligently sifted through the ungodly amount of sonar data they had collected in the hours before and after the alert went out?
Pretty sure it was already confirmed that they waited for the submersible to be overdue before calling for help, and they imploded on their initial descent, so you're definitely onto something here.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on June 27, 2023, 06:01:40 PMIm pretty sure the SOSUS kit is a lot more advanced then WW1-1910s tech.
The basic principles for making an announcement about a detection consistent with an implosion in the area, would not be more advanced than mid 1910s tech. They don't even have to say which platform(s) detected and triangulated it, although everyone who cares about North Atlantic warfare already knows SOSUS is there.
If there aren't computers already sifting through the ungodly amount of sonar data during the hours bracketing the implosion (allowing for time of sound to travel to various platforms), looking for various signature definitions of interest and flagging them for human investigation (or even further computer investigation), then (as a popular example) Tom Clancy was just making up science-fiction technology in the late 80s -- otherwise that tech already exists and everyone who cares either knows about it or can reasonably expect it to exist.
Which, again: computer sampling and flagging analysis doesn't even need to be mentioned in a public announcement about detection-consistent-with: specific platform capabilities and methodologies are NOT necessary;
basic capabilities (not even counting methodologies) are already known, at the bare minimum, by every Navy who cares.
I cannot (yet) understand actual
security concerns about announcing the implosion detection a lot sooner than they did. I could grant a default abundance of security caution about mentioning any such detection, but then that same default refusal to do so would count against them
ever mentioning any such detection. What security principle would have changed between sooner and later?
Bureaucratic authority lag seems like a more logical explanation (along with other possibilities).
And maybe I've got a faulty notion of the timing: maybe the administration was announcing the consistent-with-fatal-implosion-high-probability within 24 hours, and I've just forgotten that, or never heard it that soon, which is entirely possible. I've been very distracted last week with Mom at the hospital, so I may very well have a non-problem on the timing! -- but I've seen some discussion of the late timing of the announcement elsewhere.
hope your moms doing better, we have a date next week.
and your grounded.
You couldn't handle Mother Pratt. She'd make you sit in the corner so long for your Potty Mouth that your nose would grow to a point. :rollingpin:
(https://global.discourse-cdn.com/business6/uploads/gcaptain_maritime_forum/original/2X/2/22f018f4d114fd0e43c850fff8f4ca1eddf68146.jpeg)
The wreckage was just recovered, and the Coast Guard put out a statement saying "presumed human remains" were found in the debris. :Wow:
Friend of mine said it well. One second they're alive, next they're pink mist.
Just imagine the walls of texts I can inflict upon you now that I'm grounded! :Nerd: :Nerd: :Nerd:
Meanwhile, a morbid side of my brain is trying to figure out if 'pink mist' could be an accurate description for the result of a depth-pressure implosion, and I keep having to remind myself it's an evocative metaphor. The important thing from their perspective is that they couldn't have suffered much (maybe not at all once it started) on the way out; their families can have a 'quantum' of solace from that, too. Under the circumstances, things could have been much, much worse.
...and now that morbid side of my brain has gone back to wondering whether some plan I heard of earlier on a TV report, about raising the sub to the surface in 45 minutes to rescue them (using a special ship crane), would have made any practical sense due to decompression problems. That would be a MUCH worse way to go, and especially hellish if inflicted by someone genuinely trying to rescue them from asphyxiation. Imagine having to make that call.
To echo Bobarossa, "One minute you're in a can like Tuna Fish, the next you're Tuna Fish in a can". With my luck, I'd be the guy scheduled for the next trip down and suddenly they have an opening...
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/877378899502313532/1124669590937534474/IMG_4329.png?width=675&height=576)
Interesting legal analysis of the fallout from the disaster by the Legal Eagle.
Some thoughts on the limit of liability waivers that I was not aware of...