Just a quick note about this thorny and somewhat controversial subject.
Much like in my case with EPIC many folk avoid resellers like the plague but I have used various resellers to buy games at crazily low prices for a few years without any problems at all. I got Pathfinder War of the Righteous for example for about 5 UK pounds.
Anyway with the release of Baldurs Gate 3 I checked out the resellers and found it advertised at £25 via Kinguin as opposed to £50 on Steam. Having bought it, on claiming the key I did not as usual get a Steam key to register but instead got the full username and password of another person's Steam account which had Baldurs Gate in their Steam library. Along with this I had their email address and password so I could change their Steam password to my own :HideEyes:
It is I am sure a matter of huge surprise to all that the email account was on a Chinese domain.
Needless to say this was a no go and I put in a support ticket to Kinguin and asked for a full refund expecting a brush off. 24 hours later the refund was approved.
Well dodgy.
I have of course ended up buying it on Steam as I probably should have done originally !
Something to bear in mind.
When you buy from there, they tell you how your game will be received on the purchase page. Typically it will be one of three ways. Actual steam key, gift code, or steam account as you saw in this case. It will show this up front. They do a good job of providing refunds if you haven't activated the game so glad you weren't stuck.
Yes in that case it was my fault for not reading the product delivery details so I was probably lucky to get the refund.
With the other occasions of buying keys I have always just received a key so that is what threw me.
It has to be contrary to Steam's terms of service to access a third person's account to play as I pointed out on the ticket.
Careful with all that, jeez :justice:
Quote from: Gusington on August 08, 2023, 08:13:56 AMCareful with all that, jeez :justice:
Definitely othing illegal in buying the keys. A little like buying goods of Amazon and then finding out they are counterfeit (which happens quite regularly) I have more than a suspicion that selling access to another person's Steam account is very much in " legally questionable" territory.
If they're not careful, they're going to give this whole, 'Internet' thing a bad reputation. :grumpy: You sure got to watch yourself these days everywhere you go and everything you click, like an open can of Tuna Fish in a Cat Factory. :HideEyes:
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 08, 2023, 10:14:53 AMIf they're not careful, they're going to give this whole, 'Internet' thing a bad reputation. :grumpy: You sure got to watch yourself these days everywhere you go and everything you click, like an open can of Tuna Fish in a Cat Factory. :HideEyes:
I have learned that if I open a can of tuna in my attic while my two cats are in the basement and close my eyes for 15 seconds, a cat reliably appears. :grin:
Like magic!
I believe it to be some sort of spontaneous generation. Further tests are needed.
:Nerd:
I've spoken on this several times, but you should NEVER give money to these key resellers. They use extremely shady methods to obtain these keys (usually through stolen credit card info) and when the credit card companies catch on, it's the game developers who get screwed and end up with no money. Ya know - the people who actually made the game you're enjoying :knuppel2:
Al
Not withstanding my own issues detailed at the top of this thread I think that is maybe a bit unfair.
I quote from one of the largest resellers CD Keys (with over 90% satisfaction ratings on Trust pilot btw):
'Our company helps you save money by importing the games from main distributors in other countries, where games have cheaper retail prices than in countries such as Australia or Israel. Because of the savings made in postage costs (as our items are sent digitally), it allows us to provide extremely low pricing. Not only this, but the codes we sell work worldwide as digital downloads, unlike physical products which are sometimes region locked."
Nothing illegal there at all and I have major issues with regional pricing on principle.
Seeing companies that often price gouge in countries like Australia and Israel whist charging a fraction of the price elsewhere in the world for the same product removes any sympathy for them when the resellers take advantage of the price differential they themselves have created.
Then again it's up to the customer to choose I guess.
Quote from: devoncop on August 08, 2023, 04:31:48 PMAl
Not withstanding my own issues detailed at the top of this thread I think that is maybe a bit unfair.
I quote from one of the largest resellers CD Keys (with over 90% satisfaction ratings on Trust pilot btw):
'Our company helps you save money by importing the games from main distributors in other countries, where games have cheaper retail prices than in countries such as Australia or Israel. Because of the savings made in postage costs (as our items are sent digitally), it allows us to provide extremely low pricing. Not only this, but the codes we sell work worldwide as digital downloads, unlike physical products which are sometimes region locked."
Nothing illegal there at all and I have major issues with regional pricing on principle.
Seeing companies that often price gouge in countries like Australia and Israel whist charging a fraction of the price elsewhere in the world for the same product removes any sympathy for them when the resellers take advantage of the price differential they themselves have created.
Then again it's up to the customer to choose I guess.
I'm not familiar with the specific reseller you're referring to, but what you're talking about as "nothing illegal" has nothing to do with using stolen credit cards which backcharge and screw over the game devs and Steam. Naturally they are not going to publicly admit if they engage in this practice.
Quote from: devoncop on August 08, 2023, 04:31:48 PMSeeing companies that often price gouge in countries like Australia and Israel whist charging a fraction of the price elsewhere in the world for the same product removes any sympathy for them when the resellers take advantage of the price differential they themselves have created.
Seems very unfair to paint game devs in general with this brush when it's mainly, to my knowledge, massive companies like Steam and EA who engage in this practice. My personal feelings aside, I still don't see how that justifies buying what is essentially stolen goods and ripping off the devs who made the game. I don't see it any differently than someone buying a bunch of McDonalds burgers with a stolen credit card then selling the burgers out front for hard cash at a discount.
Literally a staple of Mafia money making, but I guess it's cool to rip off game devs because EA and Steam like to price gouge.
But what if I buy a bunch of Mc Donald's burgers, don't I have the right to sell them to someone else? And doesn't that person have a right to sell them to others as well? I see your point though, buying stolen goods and reselling them is always bad, but if the Steam Key is mine, what's wrong with me selling it to someone else?
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 08, 2023, 10:47:58 PMBut what if I buy a bunch of Mc Donald's burgers, don't I have the right to sell them to someone else? And doesn't that person have a right to sell them to others as well? I see your point though, buying stolen goods and reselling them is always bad, but if the Steam Key is mine, what's wrong with me selling it to someone else?
You are blatantly ignoring the "stolen credit card" aspect of this analogy. No, it's not okay, legal, or ethical to steal someone's money, then use it to buy property and resell it at a discount and profit yourself. As I mentioned earlier, that is a very common money laundering scheme.
If you want to use your own money to buy something then re-sell it at a loss, that's on you. But you're naive if you think that's how these re-sellers operate and that they're just doing this out of charity.
It's outrageous that this practice is tolerated by gamers who apparently don't care about the people who actually make their entertainment getting paid instead of some scammers who gamed a system created by big corporations.
You are wrong, I specifically said in my post, "Buying stolen goods and reselling them is always bad". That would include stolen credit cards I believe. But my question is if I buy a game and get a key to install it, unless prohibited by the site's rules or a state or federal law, isn't it MY key and I can do whatever I want with it, sell it, give it away, or ignore it? That seems very basic and not a threat to gaming world-wide nor supportive of International Criminal Cartels.
If the bad guys are stealing anything or anyone's possessions, then that is a crime and should treated as such. And I hope the bastards get caught and prosecuted wherever they operate from. Maybe if there were more attention paid to them specifically, then there would be less of the crime committed. :justice:
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 09, 2023, 10:26:17 AMBut my question is if I buy a game and get a key to install it, unless prohibited by the site's rules or a state or federal law, isn't it MY key and I can do whatever I want with it, sell it, give it away, or ignore it? That seems very basic and not a threat to gaming world-wide nor supportive of International Criminal Cartels.
I don't know what Steam's specific rules are about selling keys (I'm pretty sure it's explicitly against their TOS), but this is irrelevant to the point that these keys are obtained fraudulently in the first place.
I'm not suggesting you're literally funding international criminal cartels. I was drawing the comparison to illustrate that these businesses operate in a similar way to Mafias.
No, gaming as a whole is not going to collapse, but if you're willing to scam a small business owner on the grounds that it won't cause the whole economy to collapse, then that honestly really just speaks for itself. Same with the sentiment of "Well if they're breaking the law, I sure hope they get caught; but in the meantime I don't see any problem doing business with them."
Interesting discussion.
As an ex police officer with a very black and white view of right and wrong (to the extent it stymied my career progression as I turned down detective branch as their were too many grey areas for me working with informants etc) , I would never endorse turning a blind eye to criminality.
As a result I have stopped using Kinguin and got my refund because of the issue I originally raised despite the fact I have now paid double to access the game.
My point is that until someone shows me evidence of a specific reseller using criminal methods I am 100 per cent going to use them as they are after all legal businesses.
^ Fair enough to want proof, though I've heard enough secondhand anecdotes of indie game devs being screwed by sites like G2A that I personally refuse to support them on principle.
Interesting conversation.
Well obviously the main issue that makes you - whether you like it or not - engage in probably illegal activities every time you buy a key from a re-seller is akin to what happens IRL in many other examples, when it comes to VAT for those places that apply it. It's illegal, but depending on the case you're not in breach of contract or law with the same people.
An example: say you're on holidays in Hong-Kong, you come back with an Iphone that is noticeably cheaper than the same product in your place. It is all the more obvious for games considering these are 100% the same offerings, with no other difference than the price, but let's say this Iphone is 100% similar to what you'd buy in your country.
You're allowed in with the assumption that it is either 1) for your own use 2) a gift.
It ends up on Ebay in its original packaging. You are engaging in contraband by profiting under a false pretense, and the buyer is engaging in contraband by buying said product too.
Now, they say they "import their keys". Which would not be an issue if it had any actual ground for legality - but there are a few obstacles on that road from my understanding:
1) Valve was not applying VAT accordingly when you go through the cashier. I.e.: X country VAT was applied, which is not usually the VAT you'd apply for an exportation - ok then you paid more than you should have at that point - but this is largely compensated by the fact that Y country doesn't levy import tax on this transaction - not because digital products VAT is waived, but because it completely goes under the radar). Original key buyer, besides the means he might have used to acquired them, might not have cheated the law. The shop that does buy them from him, on the other hand, obviously is cheating its own country's import tax rate, for sure. And after that, it is selling back to you things it should not be allowed to process in the first place. If it re-applies the VAT based on its customer location, then it means you are buying a non-regular product the regular way, but remember that you'll be paying your VAT - while they haven't paid their own. But even then, let's say I am ready to believe they went 100% through due process, happen to live in a place where those shenanigans are legal and import tax is low & accounted for. Then it brings us to point n°2.
2) Valve does not sell keys in bulk to begin with, and if a dev/publisher does (the only legal way these keys were acquired, which in itself would be surprising - you can imagine EA & Activision don't exactly do that) by generating them for further use so as to profit from a different price than the one indicated on the buyer's shop, he is going against Valve's terms of business (which in itself is not illegal, but is cause for termination of their contract with the platform)
At any rate, world-wide, non-region locked keys IMHO usually mean dev/publisher bulk sales. That's between them & Steam, obviously... But still, let's not pretend it's TOS-compatible to begin with. For now Steam thinks it is not worth the fight, or is even helpful to their larger economy (that is by bringing more people on the platform). The day they decide to enforce their TOS and deactive all these keys all of a sudden (might never happen though especially for past lots) just don't be mad at them ;)
At the end of the day, does that make you a criminal? Well of course not - no more than, like, spitting your gum in a no littering area or something. You're only a criminal if you get caught, and even then the offense is what it is. Still, it's all up to your moral compass at the end, and although I can hold these things as understandable and not of a big deal, advocating them broadly or profiteering from them on a larger scale is less my cup of tea, that's probably where my limit is - all the more now that I am about to be a victim (although victim is too much of a word IMHO) of this practice myself when our game comes out (if it ever comes out, and successful enough to be sought ^^)
Very interesting and well explained description of a process I to be perfectly honest have a less than full understanding of.
I think you are right in pointing out that in allowing external steam keys to be subsequently registered and used on their site are explicitly facilitating the whole key re-seller business. I think there is zero chance they would ever de-activate keys from re sellers as the reputational damage they would suffer would be catastrophic.
I understand as a developer you have "skin in the game" so would naturally be opposed to cheap keys being re sold and traded but I still totally refute any suggestion of any illegality by individual consumers (at least under UK law). There is simply no legislation forbidding such a practice nor a single prosecution of anyone doing so (for the same reason).
To be honest, Valve is not in an easy situation either. There should be nothing by European standards for instance that prevent you from reselling your key/license. They were caught in the past on other aspects - such as, for instance, their generous return policy which ends up, IIRC, motivated by the EU objecting to these.
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/369C-3E9F-76FD-DEDA
The whole key business derives directly (just like the legal issues above) from their nature of trying to cover the whole globe with a single platform which has to account with the fact that business in the USA, UK, EU, Russia, India, China or else might have broadly comparable characteristics, but certainly don't protect their consumers with the same exact rules or energy. I suppose they have come to accept that the key business comes with the territory, and some of the schemes that emanated from them really are brilliant & important to our gaming ecosystem (Nexus for contents creators for instance, or providing a steam key along with sales on the Bundle Store or GOG, if that's still a thing). So overall I am sure the good things balance the bad ones, one way or another.
My main response to that anyway is to do what I can along with my publisher, when time comes, to keep regional prices as close from each other as possible. After all it's on us if we decide to release on Steam. With a great market come great responsibilities :grin:
Excellent attitude towards the issue and one that many could learn from imho
There are - as always different shades of these types of site. Some may be more dodgy than others - but I regularly buy from CD Keys I dont see any real difference than buying a steam key from them or green man gaming - or gamers gate...
I wonder what peoples opinions would be if instead of computer games we were talking about paying our taxes.
In an imperfect world I think steam is doing the right thing by being "balanced" and only acting on evidence when it has evidence. Platforms that are too rigid eventually fall. I am remembering napster and torrents and things and how any action was effectively pointless. Still I wonder how people are selling region unlocked keys.
I am also remembering the cracked game market people used before we had steam internet activation. I am trying to point out that things could be worse. Steam is the best thing that happened to PC games. No closed console ecosystem, yet good incentive for developers to make games because they can make money. Trust that people have in steam that wherever you are in the world as a developer your game can host to the entire world without bias and as far as possible due to reviews etc a reasonable chance of not being scams. No reliance on the local shops having stock or even bothering to get a game you want in.
However, as for the whole reselling of a digital item. I think this whole thing has always been a little silly and akin to wanting to sell your movie ticket after you have watched the movie. Rather than reselling a physical item like a book which is the fully be all and end of all service. A digital key or a movie is payment for not only the digital IP but the hosting of that service for the life of the game (the projectionist and his theatre). Add to this that in the olden days because the service was digital in nature it could be copied to multiple computers at no charge. If reselling was to be facilitated it would not only force the provider (usually steam) to have to provide and maintain a way of reselling between accounts but would probably also push them to a subscription service where you paid per game per year. Thus when you resold the game you would essentially be selling the remainder of a car registration.
Of course if anybody would prefer to go back to the good old days of boxed games with copy protection on the discs and no account activation. Where developers would once again be exposed to fake product and copying rackets? Where consumers would be exposed to damaged media and scratched discs.
Agree totally! Please God, deliver us from the return of the DRM Police. And I don't even think I'm capable of doing the whole, 'Patch & Update' thing anymore. Steam can have my house keys if only they keep my shit straight for me.
Quote from: Destraex on August 14, 2023, 02:30:39 AMOf course if anybody would prefer to go back to the good old days of boxed games with copy protection on the discs and no account activation. Where developers would once again be exposed to fake product and copying rackets? Where consumers would be exposed to damaged media and scratched discs.
Screw that!
I want to go back to the days of manual based code wheels!!!
:Dreamer:
LucasGames Their Finest Hour beckons :Nerd:
Quote from: Gusington on August 14, 2023, 01:08:09 PMLucasGames Their Finest Hour beckons :Nerd:
Starflight!
(https://i.ibb.co/9VC5zRL/piracy.jpg)
I absolutely would expect that from a slimy blob.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on August 13, 2023, 09:08:29 AMThere are - as always different shades of these types of site. Some may be more dodgy than others - but I regularly buy from CD Keys I dont see any real difference than buying a steam key from them or green man gaming - or gamers gate...
If you don't see the difference, you haven't been reading the thread carefully.
The difference is that the game developers who spent their time and money creating the game you are now enjoying get screwed over by CD key resellers and don't end up earning any money when the credit card companies catch on.
When you buy from legitimate stores like GOG and GreenManGaming, the developers get paid. Those sites are not key resellers, they're legitimate vendors. It's a very simple difference.
You must hate Flea Markets huh al? :grin: Sorry to say but people have always found ways to trade, traffic, and sell their shit no matter what. It may not be, 'legitimate' but there's no real stopping it.
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 14, 2023, 09:26:40 PMYou must hate Flea Markets huh al?
I can't tell if you're being intentionally obtuse or if you're just not getting it. The flea market analogy only works if you're stealing credit cards and then using them to buy stuff and immediately re-sell it at the flea market for cash. If you don't think that's theft and thus morally repugnant then I suppose we just have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 14, 2023, 09:26:40 PMSorry to say but people have always found ways to trade, traffic, and sell their shit no matter what. It may not be, 'legitimate' but there's no real stopping it.
I really cannot stand this line of thinking. Just because you can't stop it doesn't mean you should support it and feel OK with ripping off the people who actually put their time and hard earned money into creating the product. Do you also enthusiastically shop at fences for stolen jewelry so you can save money instead of going to a pawn shop or, better yet, an actual jeweler? Or visit your local traphouse to save a few thousand bucks on a "used" car?
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 14, 2023, 09:26:40 PMYou must hate Flea Markets huh al? :grin: Sorry to say but people have always found ways to trade, traffic, and sell their shit no matter what. It may not be, 'legitimate' but there's no real stopping it.
Aye, as Al is saying, and moral implications aside, a flea market is akin to second-hand consumption, it is something I was advocating myself just a few posts above - that is, legally-speaking if one consider that a license is a product like any other (and not something along the line of a show or an attraction - although it could be argued it is too, cf. the precedent parallel with movie tickets) then you should be able to re-sell it after use. That's what ebay was about on day 1 (vs Amazon), that's what a flea market is.
A flea market ain't about selling fake bags or reselling stuff you bought just the day before using a stolen credit card, or stuff that you found on the road after a truck fell upside down. At least not in my country, but it's been some time :grin:
I was NOT trying to be obtuse, thus the, 'Grin' emoji. Clearly you feel strongly about this al but people who disagree are not out to destroy gaming or support crime. Your thoughts here are your Intellectual Property. But by posting them here, you are sharing them with us and making them public. If we share them with others without your permission, are we stealing from you? If there was a place where I could sell them to people and make money doing it would that be a crime? Possibly. It would be a shitty thing to do to you or anybody else. But somebody would do it and that shouldn't surprise you nor be seen as the End of the World. And BTW, I hate Flea Markets.
To be fair, considering your current avatar, one would expect you to hate all kinds of fleas to begin with :pirate:
:Dreamer:
I would love it if software was sold like hammers at the hardware store; once I buy it, its mine to do with what I want.
But software is licensed and only the right to use it is purchased.
It is a system that does not thrill me, but has frankly served me well as a computer gamer.
So, I will support licenses and publishers.
Unless the software publisher allows the license to be transferred, the idea of buying a "key" is generally out of the question in my opinion.
Well this thread certainly got some interest.
I feel like some dressed to kill girlfriend (stop it Gus) who flirts with a guy and when he responds tells her boyfriend and eggs him on to flatten the guy :ROFL:
I will not :Party:
Quote from: Gusington on August 15, 2023, 01:06:20 PMI will not :Party:
I was expecting a different smiley, but maybe that should be from Devon... :privatedancer:
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 15, 2023, 09:28:06 AMYour thoughts here are your Intellectual Property. But by posting them here, you are sharing them with us and making them public. If we share them with others without your permission, are we stealing from you? If there was a place where I could sell them to people and make money doing it would that be a crime? Possibly. It would be a shitty thing to do to you or anybody else.
If you're selling Al's posts to other people off site, that could be a theft of intellectual property, yep, unless you're passing an amount of that profit back to Al according to a percentage he agrees with.
Some of the legal grey areas are (as I think you're also referring to for your argument), that by posting literally anything here (including as attachments) we are making them public, thus publishing them, on a platform that allows copies of that material to be made and passed along (not simply passing on the same unit, for sale or otherwise) -- and moreover which makes some profit, at least potentially, off selling ad-space. We're tacitly giving permission for the site to use the material we post to make profit without recompensation to us -- much less compensation to anyone whose material we're posting on the site.
So, as an example very pertinent to myself :Nerd: -- if I ever had any hope of doing anything with the first-and-currently-only novel of my fantasy series in the future, I've shot that hope directly in the head by having posted it here as a pdf in the Books category. It is now publicly "Published", in a form that allows infinite copies to be made. At this point any publisher who wished to buy the rights to make a profit from creating and distributing it, would have to work first with the site owners as to compensating them! Legally I've given up my rights for future compensation, for all practical purposes, unless a publisher is so desperate to have series rights or whatever that they're willing to waive any loss of profit-return for their investment by having my first novel out in the public domain already.
Same goes for my theological and philosophical work, largely posted elsewhere (though there's a copy of one here somewhere in the RPF category, too). Even if it was massively popular, I'd be the only person who dared to invest money trying to 'publish' it for a profit because I already made it publicly available: I've already published it, and worse by a method capable of practically unlimited copy propagation. (It would actually be WORSE if the property was massively popular! I know a library reference work, of which I bought a physical copy at around $360; once the publishers made their required return on it, mostly from institutions buying a copy, they released the whole thing in a nice free pdf, nearly a thousand pages, so that anyone can use it. But in so doing they made it unlikely anyone would want to publish it for sale again.)
This is why I only post my bad ideas here, never my really good ones. I'm protecting my Intellectual Property. Like my idea for a Clothes Dryer that folds your clothes when it's finished.... Probably shouldn't have mentioned that. :doh:
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 15, 2023, 10:50:57 PMThis is why I only post my bad ideas here, never my really good ones. I'm protecting my Intellectual Property. Like my idea for a Clothes Dryer that folds your clothes when it's finished.... Probably shouldn't have mentioned that. :doh:
Doesn't matter, it will shortly be made irrelevant by my clothes dryer that uses sophisticated AI to pair socks. :)
Can either of those dryers make me a sandwich? With food, not clothes please.
Sandwich, yes. Beer, no. :beermug[1]:
Cool, I have the beer.
Great. You don't mind Mohair in your sandwich do you?
Hmm...I dunno...
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 16, 2023, 09:28:00 PMGreat. You don't mind Mohair in your sandwich do you?
Not when used this way :ThumbsUp:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7GX9vGuhKFfSHMzuTxE8pm9czQoPd0BIBww&usqp=CAU)
There's a joke about fur here somewhere.