Looks like steam page is up, maybe coming soon. Kind of generic name, images are Waterloo and believe they previous said that would come first, surprised not part of actual game title.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2205330/Scourge_Of_War__Remastered/?fbclid=IwAR3LvcBDZx6EKNYM-hpomoZ1dzkE7u40AfNy9HxI-Z6Tns8gyq_E83gvZL8
Well if they do waterloo with terrain that you can actually see and enjoy thats all I want.
From the Steam page: '...It's been many years since those initial releases and old men need something to do in their twilight years.'
:shocked:
Just thinking about it. It sounds like the base game will be scourge of war engine with the waterloo module being optional? I doubt they would force civil war buffs to buy a napoleonic wars module to get to the civil war content? Who knows perhaps the title is not final.
Not sure, they just indicated Waterloo would be the first to be updated, I guess we will see soon enough.
One thing I do remember is that scourge of war games were pulled from sale everywhere a year or so ago. So I think this new version has been worked on for at least a year.
For sure at least a year, when they announced back in December 2022, they implied most was already done.
With respect, that doesn't look all that "remastered."
Quote from: Toonces on November 29, 2023, 10:06:57 PMWith respect, that doesn't look all that "remastered."
Been a long time since I played the original, so hard for me to remember and compare the graphics based on these few images posted so far. But beyond the graphics, they indicated the ai was made a lot stronger and the performance of the game being better, along with introducing the ability to play multi player via steam. So I don't think the remastered term is solely based on graphics. Not sure we will really know until it enters early access for us all to see, but either way the past graphics was never a major deal for me as the overall gameplay was what I really liked, although I would much prefer the civil war titles first.
Since they just published the page with coming soon, believe steam has rules they can't release a new product for two weeks so we likely minimally have that amount of time to wait, if not likely more. Unless there are different rules for games that go early access first.
Day one purchase for me.
"Come on, shake your body baby, do the conga" popped into my head as soon as I saw the thread. Did they ever solve that issue?
^Haha what the hell issue was that? Sounds more like a feature.
Quote from: Gusington on November 30, 2023, 09:03:11 AM^Haha what the hell issue was that? Sounds more like a feature.
Guessing might be meaning how when troops moved in columns, they kind of snapped into place as they moved, especially around curves......kind of making it look like a conga line:)
^'Bonus feature' :Dreamer:
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 30, 2023, 09:08:10 AMQuote from: Gusington on November 30, 2023, 09:03:11 AM^Haha what the hell issue was that? Sounds more like a feature.
Guessing might be meaning how when troops moved in columns, they kind of snapped into place as they moved, especially around curves......kind of making it look like a conga line:)
I would think that advancements in AI and computer capability would allow the developers to fix the conga line issue. While visually jarring, the series remains the best regimental-sized USCW system in terms of both visuals and the computer opponent. I hope that they will also make it easier for user-generated content to be developed. If I recall, it was difficult to make maps for user scenarios, so that there were only a limited number of battles made.
New images posted, looking pretty good to me.....liking the graphics, terrain, and the toolbar. More at the store page but a good enough sample.
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_ea0c95aff5657453a67bb7a0738260d2b46e6d48.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_5a7ad068c5d9a9c45d3d893561218dd9c017e1b0.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_fb5b4298625f1fd1978f88e5e6eb299e18f09dfd.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_34bb2060b5d0f6444551596dfca8532d97782eaa.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_9b83a4da3fd3b1eb525aca86ca208c9f45c06057.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_74f56c55c2eac2dd2524c801c6882eb302e6a151.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_9410714fdf9ada71bec1e9a2cfc88bcd8c8ce260.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_bf12dbf867ba9a8fa019553b1918592b1efbb446.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_64cda22abf004fecd6b9ba1bad5625bdd0879ba9.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_ae82b3c948f9acf02aeb416e9c1b825fe617ed6e.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_41b8115d88b5e08b4cd74e04ce6df110233481cb.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_400b8d09f42184c5576b67b74ecbdde098e341e0.jpg?t=1702915473)
(https://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2205330/ss_8058142085fbdc9029a92f30433714f2ea712f2f.jpg?t=1702915473)
That's a reasonable gfx upgrade considering they don't seem to be changing the underlying engine per se. I'm much more interested in the AI, UI, and multiplayer upgrades. Plus any improvement in user-made campaign and map design: the playbase has always devotedly tried to do what they could with the system since back through the original Take Command days. The ability to use Steam for easy multiplayer would be money by itself!
I need to see trees that do not ever draw in at a distance but are always in frame as far as the eye can see. I want to be able to survey the terrain like napoleon and identify cover and ar a distance see my troops enter it.
I also want to see a much more granular base tile terrain map. That is unless it is all hidden by undergrowth?
That would satisfy me as I am unaware of any ai issues, because I did not play the fame game enough. I'd want to play with friends if possible anyways.
Haven't played since First Manassas. Accidentally missed pulling the trigger before they were withdrawn by one day. LOL As far as I'm concerned the terrain could look like green felt for grass, and yellow felt for cornfields. In fact, I kind of like when things look a bit like that, Second Front being an example sort of. I particularly like my naval titles to look like I'm playing Avon Hill's Jutland on my blue/green bed sheet as I can barely make out units in some naval titles nowadays. I liked the pale blue water textures Norm had in Distant Guns before he started getting feedback or teamed up with Jim Rose.
Red Baron 3D, now that was some improvement with Kessler's Promised Land. Made it much harder for me to kill the Frogs and Tommies, but it sure looked pretty.
Quote from: em2nought on December 28, 2023, 04:38:30 AMHaven't played since First Manassas. Accidentally missed pulling the trigger before they were withdrawn by one day. LOL As far as I'm concerned the terrain could look like green felt for grass, and yellow felt for cornfields. In fact, I kind of like when things look a bit like that, Second Front being an example sort of. I particularly like my naval titles to look like I'm playing Avon Hill's Jutland on my blue/green bed sheet as I can barely make out units in some naval titles nowadays. I liked the pale blue water textures Norm had in Distant Guns before he started getting feedback or teamed up with Jim Rose.
Red Baron 3D, now that was some improvement with Kessler's Promised Land. Made it much harder for me to kill the Frogs and Tommies, but it sure looked pretty.
I liked SES Jutland and the way it looked. It was consistent.
SOW Waterloo is not consistent. The way one low res 3D terrain block from the 90s that looks horribly blocky is used in conjunction with 2d sprites that look high res but flat means that for me men do not stand out against terrain well AND that I have trouble making out terrain details at a glance. That is why I hope this upgraded one fixes that jarring effect of low res 3D against high res 2D sprites.
I am interested even though I've never invested enough time in the original games.
Quote from: Anguille on December 28, 2023, 06:26:16 AMI am interested even though I've never invested enough time in the original games.
Me too, I am glad they are releasing an updated version and plan to enjoy it for whatever it turns out to include versus worrying too much about what it doesn't improve....hopefully just the start of more enhancements to come and more material. Wish it was already released, would be an instant buy for me.
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 27, 2023, 07:11:46 PMThat's a reasonable gfx upgrade considering they don't seem to be changing the underlying engine per se. I'm much more interested in the AI, UI, and multiplayer upgrades. Plus any improvement in user-made campaign and map design: the playbase has always devotedly tried to do what they could with the system since back through the original Take Command days. The ability to use Steam for easy multiplayer would be money by itself!
I agree. While the AI was good, it could use some improvement. I would like to see the regiments maneuvered more in accordance with "Hardee's Rifle & Light Infantry Tactics" manual. This is not just for visuals, but because the current AI sometime has regiments inefficiently maneuvering and/or presenting their flanks to enemy forces. I would especially like to have the game make it easier for the community to make maps and scenarios.
Sounds like goal is to release early access in June according to developer....was hoping it was sooner, but at least a timeframe.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on March 02, 2024, 06:06:23 PMSounds like goal is to release early access in June according to developer....was hoping it was sooner, but at least a timeframe.
I'm fighting the urge to go out and buy ultimate general American revolution, I keep going to back to grand tactician but long to have more control over the economy and behind the scenes war stuff. I don't know of any other games that have decent battles and a complex back end....
Quote from: rss334 on March 02, 2024, 07:21:12 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on March 02, 2024, 06:06:23 PMSounds like goal is to release early access in June according to developer....was hoping it was sooner, but at least a timeframe.
I'm fighting the urge to go out and buy ultimate general American revolution, I keep going to back to grand tactician but long to have more control over the economy and behind the scenes war stuff. I don't know of any other games that have decent battles and a complex back end....
I have learnt from experience that I simply don't play games from other clients so I will wait for steam. My reason though is mainly one of ease of multiplayer and updates.
Quote from: Destraex on March 02, 2024, 10:26:33 PMQuote from: rss334 on March 02, 2024, 07:21:12 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on March 02, 2024, 06:06:23 PMSounds like goal is to release early access in June according to developer....was hoping it was sooner, but at least a timeframe.
I'm fighting the urge to go out and buy ultimate general American revolution, I keep going to back to grand tactician but long to have more control over the economy and behind the scenes war stuff. I don't know of any other games that have decent battles and a complex back end....
I have learnt from experience that I simply don't play games from other clients so I will wait for steam. My reason though is mainly one of ease of multiplayer and updates.
Very true, I have a couple outside of steam and I don't play them because I hate to manually update. I watched a couple videos on UGAR & while I'm sure it will end up being a fine game I'm going to wait for steam release too. Scourge of War was a good game before the remaster so we can only hope it gets the love by NORB it deserves. Just found The American Revolution mod for empire total war, can't believe I never knew about it. Kind of amazed how well empire graphics held up and with all the musket smoke now it's pretty cool, not sure how fleshed out the unit rosters are in the campaign but so far looks promising, something to keep my mind off UGAR & SOW until released.
Although I understand that people might prefer Steam better than other clients, which is certainly total fine and their right to do so, UGAR will not have multiplayer capability and the update process is automatic within the game itself. When you click on the client, it auto checks if a client update is available and applies it automatically. And from the game standpoint, if there is an update, the "Play" button is auto changed to "Update" which you simply click on and the update is applied. Pretty straightforward.
Again, up to each person if they want to wait for Steam (or even participate in the early access), but for this particular game I don't think the reason people should be held back is because of multiplayer efficiencies (multiplayer is not available) and the update process (has its own built in update process). Although I haven't completely immersed myself in the game, they update it frequently with minor/major patches and is appearing to come along nicely and has the ability to be one of the top games on the American Revolution, depending on what you like.
Since the last "major" patch in early February, they are currently working on:
Philadelphia campaign
Indian villages, units, and related mechanics
French and Spanish units and related mechanics
Quest generator.
Global map AI
Balance and events
Bug fixes and working with your feedback
Added mechanics for mercenaries from Indian tribes. You can hire Indian units in the border region if you have good relations with them.
Added flee button for naval battles on the global map
Further global map AI improves
A lot of work on the game content.
Sounds like the game is nearing release for early access, submitted to steams approval process
While I will purchase in order to support the developers, I really, really want them to updated the Civil War titles. And please, make the regiments maneuver in accordance with the Manual of Drill, Casey's Tactics, etc. In other words, get rid of the "Conga Line" and other similar artificial manuvers
Waterloo is first I believe but agree rather have civil war battles updated. Did read that norb lost his real life job back in May so hopefully he is able to find something else, no idea if that will impact future delivery dates.
That would be amazing but I just got UG:AR so I selfishly hope this is still a ways off.
Quote from: Destraex on July 03, 2024, 05:13:22 PMThat would be amazing but I just got UG:AR so I selfishly hope this is still a ways off.
Usually when in steams approval process, a week or two if no issues found
Does look like first submission was rejected, so maybe a bit....
We've submitted a build for release, but it got denied. Since we do not have a typical client server architecture, they could not confirm the MP. We tried to explain how it worked, that we've had the game this way on Steam before, and we're waiting for the response. I apologize that it's not ready by our release date. But please be assured we are doing what we can to get it out as soon as possible. Even if we just have to remove some tags so that they can pass it, we will. It's submitted again, so we are just waiting. Thank you!
Released for $18.99 now.....
Very happy to finally get it out. We are much less intensity than earlier in our lives. The older we get the more amazing it is that we released this game by our little team. It's a ton of code, I'm not sure I could even do it again. So now we are just modifying what we already created. Adding the features we've always wanted and a lot of just getting things right. If MP is not working for you, just open the ports. If it still doesn't work, then please be patient. We have plans to make it a lot easier using a different API from Steam.
We have enhancements for the maps. We no longer have the 32 bit memory limits and we run a good bit faster. Just a little to wet your whistle. We really hope you enjoy our efforts. I was also pleasantly surprised to see we had a German translation with others planned.
For those that have already played, hopefully the new eye candy will help you out. For others, it's finally ready.
Big items to come, SOWGB as a DLC. Enhanced MP. Leaderboards and Lobby. Just to list a few items.
Thank you from all the team. It's all the players and the great feedback that brought us together to give it another go.
Purchased.
Quote from: Tripoli on July 07, 2024, 06:05:10 PMPurchased.
I'm waiting for your impressions...hurry.
It's hard to remember the prior versions...UI controls look different but generally feel the same. At first, had a little bit of trouble with the camera but have figured that out. The UI could use some scaling options as some text can be small, but serviceable. One crash so far.
Probably my biggest concern will be that I much more enjoy the Civil War games vs Waterloo and such, but nice to see this coming along.
My favorite part is that the early access announcement features a Civil War scrummage instead of Nappy! :evil:
What is SoW:GB? Great Britain?? Oh, wait, Gettysburg, duh.
So, major campaigns will be DLCs of the basic engine, which releases with... oddly the description doesn't say (though it goes through the history of the genre back to Sid Meir). One of the reviews clarifies that this is Napoleon with the Wavre, Quatre Bras, and Ligny expansions already packed in waiting for unlock -- which can be done (so far) using prior codes for people who bought them!
This is the game I've bought during the summer sale, and it isn't even on sale. What is wrong with me?! (Also currently a lot of fan mods still work with the game.)
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 07, 2024, 07:01:05 PMMy favorite part is that the early access announcement features a Civil War scrummage instead of Nappy! :evil:
What is SoW:GB? Great Britain?? Oh, wait, Gettysburg, duh.
So, major campaigns will be DLCs of the basic engine, which releases with... oddly the description doesn't say (though it goes through the history of the genre back to Sid Meir). One of the reviews clarifies that this is Napoleon with the Wavre, Quatre Bras, and Ligny expansions already packed in waiting for unlock -- which can be done (so far) using prior codes for people who bought them!
This is the game I've bought during the summer sale, and it isn't even on sale. What is wrong with me?! (Also currently a lot of fan mods still work with the game.)
I saw the person mention the DLC but didn't see specific instructions on how to do it. Looking at the content in the actual folders, I only see Waterloo stuff (besides a manual) unless when you unlock additional files download.
Ended up getting instructions for the DLC. Basically you copy the DLC folder from the old Waterloo game and place the DLC folder into the new remaster's folder. It worked, was able to play. However, I would assume nothing tweaked for the remastered version and possibly might run into issues if anything changed in the new game that isn't compatible with the old files, but I guess we will see. If the developer's wanted us to play the old DLC, I would assume they would have provided an official way.
I'm talking a wait-and-see approach at this point. I have the original Waterloo and expansions on Steam, and got Gettysburg on Matrix. Right now, it doesn't appear to be much of an improvement to be gained from this version, but maybe that will change.
Quote from: Sigwolf on July 07, 2024, 08:13:33 PMI'm talking a wait-and-see approach at this point. I have the original Waterloo and expansions on Steam, and got Gettysburg on Matrix. Right now, it doesn't appear to be much of an improvement to be gained from this version, but maybe that will change.
I'm in the same camp, which is why I'm looking for impressions. It just doesn't seem much different or to be that big of an improvement.
Think most of the initial changes is switch to 64 bit engine with hopes of improved performance. Mentions expected bug fixes and graphic enhancements, too early to notice this yet. So far besides the one crash, has worked well for me. Expected to use steams multi user platform which should make that easier, but initial release does not have it.
Did see some odd clipping and arrangement of troops, also still see at times the crazy leaders that put themselves in harms way.. when I played the old versions I remember having to do tricks to get the game to run with out black screens and work on higher resolutions, but with this version worked right away.
For 18.99 and the hope continues to be supported and built on, felt was reasonable investment, but certainly understand some of the hesitation.
I have the original. Am I correct that this new release is a standalone game...not dlc?
Quote from: Rayfer on July 07, 2024, 09:22:01 PMI have the original. Am I correct that this new release is a standalone game...not dlc?
Correct, must purchase stand alone, although you can copy the dlc from your old game and use it within the new game.
The thing that always bugged me about the SoW series was the dreaded X formation, where the AI would take two regiments and form them in an X shape and they would happily fire away down the length of their friends formation. Such a silly thing and while I am no programmer I would think it shouldn't be too hard to tell the AI not to put two units in the same space. This was related to the constant conga line movements of the AI as it rapidly changed facing in response to the enemy activity.
Other than that I had a lot of fun with them starting with the first Take Command: Bull Run game back in 04.
(https://web.archive.org/web/20050412001527if_/http://www.madminutegames.com:80/Screenshots/20040924-1L.jpg)
Quote from: Bardolph on July 07, 2024, 11:11:57 PMThe thing that always bugged me about the SoW series was the dreaded X formation, where the AI would take two regiments and form them in an X shape and they would happily fire away down the length of their friends formation. Such a silly thing and while I am no programmer I would think it shouldn't be too hard to tell the AI not to put two units in the same space. This was related to the constant conga line movements of the AI as it rapidly changed facing in response to the enemy activity.
Other than that I had a lot of fun with them starting with the first Take Command: Bull Run game back in 04.
(https://web.archive.org/web/20050412001527if_/http://www.madminutegames.com:80/Screenshots/20040924-1L.jpg)
If I am understanding your comments correctly, this might still be in the game. Had one of my units lined up and then the enemy lined up their unit right through my line, creating an X. Was kind of odd to see as of course that wouldn't happen in reality. Hopefully something they continue to improve now that they got the initial release out of the way.
That's because the 'real' unit is a point on the map with gfx arranged around or behind the point. The arrangement does affect firepower and some other things but the graphics are only graphics for hoomans to look at.
This is why you can have pieces of a regiment (I think I recall that being the smallest unit) sticking out of trees or other cover, but the unit is still in cover depending on the point location. The infamous X forms are an artifact of that: allied units look like they're shooting into each other, enemy units look like they're overlapping each other, etc.
Is that Kevin Costner lying on the ground?
Quote from: Geezer on July 08, 2024, 08:52:32 AMIs that Kevin Costner lying on the ground?
No. It is Lieutenant John J. Dunbar.
I am interested in supporting the devs, so I picked this up.
Played around with it for an hour or so.
Can't really see any big differences from the previous version. AI still a little wonky (IMHO) in terms of formations, facing etc. Graphics are similar...but I think it supports more soldier sprites than before (but not sure).
But I will spend more time with it.
None of these small impressions is inspiring me to pick this up. Plus, I really am not a Napoleonic wars fan.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on July 08, 2024, 11:48:05 AMI am interested in supporting the devs, so I picked this up.
Me too. And for me it's a reasonable price point, especially if, as suggested, I can use the existing DLC with it.
Quote from: Father Ted on July 08, 2024, 03:17:06 PMQuote from: ArizonaTank on July 08, 2024, 11:48:05 AMI am interested in supporting the devs, so I picked this up.
Me too. And for me it's a reasonable price point, especially if, as suggested, I can use the existing DLC with it.
Yes, you can use the DLC from the other Napoleon battles, I have already loaded them from my previous copy and they work fine. Agree, for me the low cost is a no brainer, especially when the ACW content starts flowing.
How do you guys compare SOW battles to Grand Tactician the CW battles? Which is better?
Quote from: Tanaka on July 09, 2024, 01:49:56 AMHow do you guys compare SOW battles to Grand Tactician the CW battles? Which is better?
I just got both and UG:AR.
SOW:LARGE army battles the closest graphical representation in terms of scale. It's approx 1:2 scale with mods in the older non 64bit version enabling 1:1 scale iirc. Multiplayer possible with both sides having support for a human general and human sub commanders. The strategic layer in SOW is pretty rubbish. This is the game you want if you want set piece battles and like the spectacle of watching huge numbers of troops role around. There are about 200 men in a 480 man battalion in that second shot. SOW has a tonne of tactical formation options for both entire formations as well as individual units. I have never seen any game depict this side of things so well.
This is what you will see in SOW:
(https://i.imgur.com/VMiNASQ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GESjL8p.png)
Grand Tactician: Nowhere near 1:1 scale but "seems" to be insanely detailed at the strategic map layer as well as the tactical battle layer. I have only loaded the game up once and not played it yet. But it looked great. Just not in a civil war kinda mood. But the special was at it's cheapest I had seen. Single player only. AI is meant to be a little rubbish from what I hear. Better graphics in Grand Tactician.
This is what you will see in Grand Tactician: I think it's about 1:16 scale. 1600 men in that shot represented by about 80 men on the field.
(https://i.imgur.com/gZ86zzH.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WGKBKWP.png)
Sorry but I have no idea which is better. If Grand Tactician is as detailed as SOW at the tactical level then I guess Grand Tactician is. But multiplayer and scale of the battle may tip things in SOWs direction. SOW I suspect is much more detailed at the tactical level, but no real way to tell for me yet. I have no experience in grand tactician.
Quote from: Tanaka on July 09, 2024, 01:49:56 AMHow do you guys compare SOW battles to Grand Tactician the CW battles? Which is better?
Although both have room for improvement, not even close for me, scourge of war battles are hugely better for me. Since I am big on the civil war, I thought that grand tactician would be something I would play forever but I really don't like it due to the battles themselves. Always seem to get crazy logic and decision making by the ai, even after all the updates and trying all the settings. The ai puts troops in odd places and makes odd decisions whether to attack or hold back. With that said, certainly sow has some odd things in troop arrangement and such but in most cases seems to make reasonable decisions or at least as not as frustrating. I know a lot of people seem to like grand tactician, so could just be me, but something I don't even bother playing nowadays.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on July 09, 2024, 04:41:37 AMQuote from: Tanaka on July 09, 2024, 01:49:56 AMHow do you guys compare SOW battles to Grand Tactician the CW battles? Which is better?
Although both have room for improvement, not even close for me, scourge of war battles are hugely better for me. Since I am big on the civil war, I thought that grand tactician would be something I would play forever but I really don't like it due to the battles themselves. Always seem to get crazy logic and decision making by the ai, even after all the updates and trying all the settings. The ai puts troops in odd places and makes odd decisions whether to attack or hold back. With that said, certainly sow has some odd things in troop arrangement and such but in most cases seems to make reasonable decisions or at least as not as frustrating. I know a lot of people seem to like grand tactician, so could just be me, but something I don't even bother playing nowadays.
Sounds like the SOW guys should join forces with the GT guys and make the perfect game...
I have now played the tutorial of the Waterloo game. All in all, not a huge improvement in the single player game when compared to the original release. Graphics are somewhat better. I suspect things under the hood are better. The gameplay remains good, albeit with the occasional wonky formation. All in all, it is probably the best tactical Napoleonic and Civil War game engine, especially with its courier system and ability to play "HQ in Saddle" mode, especially in multiplayer. I would buy it to support the developers, and hopefully inspire them to create more content, especially USCW and additional battles
Yah, I'll buy it just to support getting the ACW stuff back and updated. For all its quirks there really isn't much out there like it.
As an aside, I don't think 1:1 unit representation in the SoW series makes much sense (however cool it may look) due to a map scale that seems more like 1:6 (if I recall my calculations when doing my "Volunteers" visual AAR several years ago. Come to think of it, I seem to recall the max 'resolution' for unit figures also being 1:6 originally.)
To be fair, I was playing the original Take Command game for that example. My occasional mp forays into the later SoW didn't give me any opportunities to compare map scale with unit scale, but I'm sure I took a moderate ratio reduction to help prevent my computer slogging while processing my side of the game i/o for the other players.
The engine, even going back to TC1 days, is kind of indescribable for more-or-less 3rd person leader action on the field -- both as a compliment and as a complaint, the latter being mostly about the bizarre user interface(s). Your on-screen character really shouldn't have to use the same clunky command movements (yet crucially different sometimes!) as the military units, but I understand why the limits of the engine design require it.
It's ambitious and amazing when it works and gnashing when it janks. An acquired taste to be sure. Nothing else really like it for multiplayer though!
I have to ask all of you civil war fans in this thread. Have you seen the blu ray version of waterloo?
What gets me about Napoleonic vs Civil War is the rock paper scissors, chess like balance of infantry, cavalry, artillery. In civil war battles it's infantry supported by artillery with cavalry more in a mounted infantry role.
Napoleonic to me is also much more colourful as a spectacle. Napoleonic also offers much more diversity of Nations and theirfore tactics. Which equates to more armies with differing doctrines and tactics and even types of weapons. Something I have heard USA folks argue is just as diverse for the ACW.
The reason I am stating all of this is that I think a lot of ACW fans that do not like Napoleonic are really missing out.
For myself, I love the ACW for wargaming but I think Napoleonic is a lot more interesting. Both are good. But why are ACW fans so much less happy to go with napoleonic? They are not mutually exclusive. I mean if we could get more USA based software devs behind the napoleonic period it would be amazing. As it is Napoleonic games seem to mostly come from the east and in far inferior numbers of games than from the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_(1970_film)
Guessing it is a matter of what country you're from. If your from the United States, civil war is going to be much more interesting to you . If not from unites states, then certainly European wars going to be more appealing. Just a matter of what you have grown up with
I actually own Bonderchunk's Waterloo (and just recently finished showing Mom a version of his War and Peace that I edited down to only 5 hours. {g})
There is a special tragedy to a civil war that always colors ACW games, brothers vs brothers. Also while in one sense the warfare seems to have regressed concerning the cavalry, the artillery and other factors advanced almost to the point of WW1 during that fearsome crucible; which games like Forge of Freedom (for example) sometimes are able to emulate (also Ultimate General:CW in somewhat different ways). That's part of why despite my admiration for Napoleonic warfare in its World War Zero ways, I have always had trouble getting into the much larger and more expansive Nappy version of the same engine as FoF: it just seems more primitive. (Also the game engine was a little more primitive, even in its Emperor's edition, despite being naturally much more expanded than FoF ever was or topically could have been.)
As someone who has lived in Tennessee all his life (mostly and currently central West TN) the past reality and present effects of the ACW are still very much alive for us. The Napoleon wars were/are something that happened all-around-over there somewhere, so have their own esoteric (exoteric?) attraction -- but they aren't the home fires. My Mom's ancestors (on either side of her parents) helped settle this area; and I have extra-great-grand-cousins who fought on each side of the war, Union and Confederate. I can drive ten minutes north to a graveyard where a civil war memorial tomb shows the graves of my ancestors who fought in that war; some to defend their homes from invasion and murder, the others to free people from the hell of slavery (granting their best motives either way).
Many people in the United States can't really care about the ACW, and I understand that. But those of us with roots in the countrysides of the states who fought: we know those people when we see them portrayed in games and films and TV shows and books, for better and for worse.
For better and for worse, those are our people; our heroes, our villains, our families, not someone else's. Not other people's people (for better and for worse), but ours -- who should have been brothers.
The Napoleonic Wars have a massive number of worthwhile stories in their histories, but those stories are about other people fighting people who, mostly, weren't 'their' people, even though all sides at least nominally granted that all people everywhere are fellow children together under God. The ACW is about our people who really knew we were and should be 'our' people, wherever we originally came from, and the cutting tragedies (and sometimes chivalry) of knowing that. Thus explaining the wonder of the world that such bitter foes should become such good friends, at least among their fighting men, soon thereafter, against governmental forces mostly dedicated to exploiting our war against each other. But Abraham Lincoln, and some of those who fought (like Grant), knew better. Thank God.
Apply to some recent American news, understandably not to be mentioned directly, as appropriate.
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 14, 2024, 12:46:09 PMI actually own Bonderchunk's Waterloo (and just recently finished showing Mom a version of his War and Peace that I edited down to only 5 hours. {g})
There is a special tragedy to a civil war that always colors ACW games, brothers vs brothers. Also while in one sense the warfare seems to have regressed concerning the cavalry, the artillery and other factors advanced almost to the point of WW1 during that fearsome crucible; which games like Forge of Freedom (for example) sometimes are able to emulate (also Ultimate General:CW in somewhat different ways). That's part of why despite my admiration for Napoleonic warfare in its World War Zero ways, I have always had trouble getting into the much larger and more expansive Nappy version of the same engine as FoF: it just seems more primitive. (Also the game engine was a little more primitive, even in its Emperor's edition, despite being naturally much more expanded than FoF ever was or topically could have been.)
As someone who has lived in Tennessee all his life (mostly and currently central West TN) the past reality and present effects of the ACW are still very much alive for us. The Napoleon wars were/are something that happened all-around-over there somewhere, so have their own esoteric (exoteric?) attraction -- but they aren't the home fires. My Mom's ancestors (on either side of her parents) helped settle this area; and I have extra-great-grand-cousins who fought on each side of the war, Union and Confederate. I can drive ten minutes north to a graveyard where a civil war memorial tomb shows the graves of my ancestors who fought in that war; some to defend their homes from invasion and murder, the others to free people from the hell of slavery (granting their best motives either way).
Many people in the United States can't really care about the ACW, and I understand that. But those of us with roots in the countrysides of the states who fought: we know those people when we see them portrayed in games and films and TV shows and books, for better and for worse.
For better and for worse, those are our people; our heroes, our villains, our families, not someone else's. Not other people's people (for better and for worse), but ours -- who should have been brothers.
The Napoleonic Wars have a massive number of worthwhile stories in their histories, but those stories are about other people fighting people who, mostly, weren't 'their' people, even though all sides at least nominally granted that all people everywhere are fellow children together under God. The ACW is about our people who really knew we were and should be 'our' people, wherever we originally came from, and the cutting tragedies (and sometimes chivalry) of knowing that. Thus explaining the wonder of the world that such bitter foes should become such good friends, at least among their fighting men, soon thereafter, against governmental forces mostly dedicated to exploiting our war against each other. But Abraham Lincoln, and some of those who fought (like Grant), knew better. Thank God.
Apply to some recent American news, understandably not to be mentioned directly, as appropriate.
A well reasoned and thoughtful comment. Thank you.
This is how you show off the new graphics improvements.
a) At the menu go to the modifications - enable "waterloo maps HD".
b) Go to settings page 2 - set everything to best or max and set sprite ratio to 1. Make all draw distances max. Enable off map trees and terrain tick boxes.
c) Go to settings page 3 - Set all camera move settings to max speed. Don't worry it will be slow even at this setting.
d) Choose singleplayer then "SANDBOX" from main menu and then choose a HD map. Preferably the HD Waterloo map. Choose army vs army. Load the game.
Things look really good using these settings for me. However my FPS is only between 7 and 11 fps and my CPU utilisation at 1% and GPU at 3%. 2.6gig of memory being used by SOW:W
The game only appears to be using one core and even though my CPU is doing other things only 1% on average is taken up by SOW.
This says to me that the game could do so much better and is using barely any of the PC resources it could be. This gives me hope that a 1:1 ratio map and sprites are more than possible with some optimisation.
Before this I was playing scenarios and those cannot use the HD maps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So my testing was invalid earlier. I could not figure out why the improvements were so negligible. As you can see, compared to my earlier screenshots these are night and day apart. Infinitely better. I might actually play this game properly now. Without wondering where the trees and terrain are that I could not see!!
(https://i.imgur.com/AHWWrmp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/jgDjlPD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/pK22BRP.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/MOsGW2U.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/hgWlQLk.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZDgNqjF.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/9rh33Kp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/mbE9Svc.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/x2cGlgd.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/FYhRVK9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/xevjBft.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/80skZFl.png)
Edge of the map... you start in the corner in this scenario as seen in the first screenshot.
(https://i.imgur.com/f49Lf3D.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/bUHZheJ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Hu7XfaW.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/6gcAwMy.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/21Jz7dE.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/nZGUPKH.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/QNM9MwY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/RvLBKyR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/g2sdv0e.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/OlZRqvM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/mQAtY51.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/RuBIdBo.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/PGRbcrD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/CSmeYcX.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/jDSNkxo.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/eaNzdsO.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/9f6B7Uc.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/z6wzJZL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/36GCRLN.png)
They need to lose the 2D sprites and come into the 21st century.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 19, 2024, 09:26:23 AMThey need to lose the 2D sprites and come into the 21st century.
I'm happy enough. All it needs now is a HD sprites mod. I think the ultimate general series is sprites?
The number of men on the field is staggering in SOW:W and without sprites we would probably have total war numbers instead. Total War draws around 1-8000 men a battle iirc and it strips the detail down to sprite level when you zoom even a little anyway. Notwithstanding the total war maps are tiny.
My next challenge is to see if I can see how big the map is. The minimap certainly makes it look large, but often the scale is misleading on maps. The icons drawn smaller than they should be. If the map is not large enough a lot of tactical moves will be precluded as they are with tabletop edges.
The other thing I will say is that the devs mentioned that it was a lot of effort for them to get this far and that they don't have the energy to do the huge hours they used to while having full time jobs. This seems to be more of a retirement hobby for them now, a last hurrah. They will fix the game for modern systems, have opened the files to modders and will continue to do small bug fix patches after that would be my guess.
P.S. To all you civil war fans out their. They started with Waterloo because it was their latest and therefore most up to date engine. So I lucked out but would think that the devs would still consider civil war as their first love.
Quote from: Destraex on July 13, 2024, 11:56:09 PMI have to ask all of you civil war fans in this thread. Have you seen the blu ray version of waterloo?
What gets me about Napoleonic vs Civil War is the rock paper scissors, chess like balance of infantry, cavalry, artillery. In civil war battles it's infantry supported by artillery with cavalry more in a mounted infantry role.
Napoleonic to me is also much more colourful as a spectacle. Napoleonic also offers much more diversity of Nations and theirfore tactics. Which equates to more armies with differing doctrines and tactics and even types of weapons. Something I have heard USA folks argue is just as diverse for the ACW.
The reason I am stating all of this is that I think a lot of ACW fans that do not like Napoleonic are really missing out.
For myself, I love the ACW for wargaming but I think Napoleonic is a lot more interesting. Both are good. But why are ACW fans so much less happy to go with napoleonic? They are not mutually exclusive. I mean if we could get more USA based software devs behind the napoleonic period it would be amazing. As it is Napoleonic games seem to mostly come from the east and in far inferior numbers of games than from the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_(1970_film)
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 14, 2024, 12:46:09 PMI actually own Bonderchunk's Waterloo (and just recently finished showing Mom a version of his War and Peace that I edited down to only 5 hours. {g})
There is a special tragedy to a civil war that always colors ACW games, brothers vs brothers. Also while in one sense the warfare seems to have regressed concerning the cavalry, the artillery and other factors advanced almost to the point of WW1 during that fearsome crucible; which games like Forge of Freedom (for example) sometimes are able to emulate (also Ultimate General:CW in somewhat different ways). That's part of why despite my admiration for Napoleonic warfare in its World War Zero ways, I have always had trouble getting into the much larger and more expansive Nappy version of the same engine as FoF: it just seems more primitive. (Also the game engine was a little more primitive, even in its Emperor's edition, despite being naturally much more expanded than FoF ever was or topically could have been.)
As someone who has lived in Tennessee all his life (mostly and currently central West TN) the past reality and present effects of the ACW are still very much alive for us. The Napoleon wars were/are something that happened all-around-over there somewhere, so have their own esoteric (exoteric?) attraction -- but they aren't the home fires. My Mom's ancestors (on either side of her parents) helped settle this area; and I have extra-great-grand-cousins who fought on each side of the war, Union and Confederate. I can drive ten minutes north to a graveyard where a civil war memorial tomb shows the graves of my ancestors who fought in that war; some to defend their homes from invasion and murder, the others to free people from the hell of slavery (granting their best motives either way).
Many people in the United States can't really care about the ACW, and I understand that. But those of us with roots in the countrysides of the states who fought: we know those people when we see them portrayed in games and films and TV shows and books, for better and for worse.
For better and for worse, those are our people; our heroes, our villains, our families, not someone else's. Not other people's people (for better and for worse), but ours -- who should have been brothers.
The Napoleonic Wars have a massive number of worthwhile stories in their histories, but those stories are about other people fighting people who, mostly, weren't 'their' people, even though all sides at least nominally granted that all people everywhere are fellow children together under God. The ACW is about our people who really knew we were and should be 'our' people, wherever we originally came from, and the cutting tragedies (and sometimes chivalry) of knowing that. Thus explaining the wonder of the world that such bitter foes should become such good friends, at least among their fighting men, soon thereafter, against governmental forces mostly dedicated to exploiting our war against each other. But Abraham Lincoln, and some of those who fought (like Grant), knew better. Thank God.
Apply to some recent American news, understandably not to be mentioned directly, as appropriate.
Nicely written. I have always been much more into the ACW games than the Napoleon games for the same reasons. Being from Alabama I feel this. You grow up with the past and present all around you. There are still confederate flags everywhere. The histories and monuments and cemeteries are everywhere. You grow up hearing the stories and about the relatives. About the battles and the generals. You visit the battlefields. Chattanooga, Chickamauga, Stone Mountain, Nashville, Atlanta, Savannah, Charleston, Richmond...you see and visit these places hands on growing up. You feel and touch these places vs the Napoleon battlefields so far away. The cultural differences and the aversion to the north is still prevalent. My Dad still calls them Yankees haha. Things have come a long way since then and the sixties though...but yes the removal of Confederate names and monuments is of course very controversial in these places...
Quote from: Tanaka on July 20, 2024, 02:12:24 PMQuote from: Destraex on July 13, 2024, 11:56:09 PM...
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 14, 2024, 12:46:09 PM...
Nicely written. I have always been much more into the ACW games than the Napoleon games for the same reasons. Being from Alabama I feel this. You grow up with the past and present all around you. There are still confederate flags everywhere. The histories and monuments and cemeteries are everywhere. You grow up hearing the stories and about the relatives. About the battles and the generals. You visit the battlefields. Chattanooga, Chickamauga, Stone Mountain, Nashville, Atlanta, Savannah, Charleston, Richmond...you see and visit these places hands on growing up. You feel and touch these places vs the Napoleon battlefields so far away. The cultural differences and the aversion to the north is still prevalent. My Dad still calls them Yankees haha. Things have come a long way since then and the sixties though...but yes the removal of Confederate names and monuments is of course very controversial in these places...
My hypothesis is that for those Grogheads who live in the South, you have a much more personal feel to the USCW, as the battlefields, both big and small, are near where you live. Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and the Carolinas have major battlefields within 30 minutes drive of any major population center. Minor battlefields are everywhere throughout the South. Heck, half the housing developments have roads named after people who fought in the USCW, and until recently every school district had at least one school named after a Civil War personality. In the North, it isn't quite as common. Aside from Antietam, Gettysburg, Harper's Ferry and Monocacy, there aren't any battlefields to remind us Yankees of our heritage. Thus, for many of us, it is a more faint echo than for those from the south. I'm probably a bit different, as my family is originally from Adams County, PA (in fact, the opening shot of Gettysburg probably embedded itself somewhere on the family farm but that's another story....). North of the Mason-Dixon line, there aren't as many monuments to the USCW in what remains of our small towns, so the memory of that was is somewhat dimmer. Additionally, much of the immigration that took place after the Civil War went to northern cities. These immigrants didn't have ties at all to the USCW, so naturally it doesn't have the same pull to them, or to their descendants as it does to those living in the south.
Quote from: Tripoli on July 20, 2024, 05:40:15 PMQuote from: Tanaka on July 20, 2024, 02:12:24 PMQuote from: Destraex on July 13, 2024, 11:56:09 PM...
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 14, 2024, 12:46:09 PM...
Nicely written. I have always been much more into the ACW games than the Napoleon games for the same reasons. Being from Alabama I feel this. You grow up with the past and present all around you. There are still confederate flags everywhere. The histories and monuments and cemeteries are everywhere. You grow up hearing the stories and about the relatives. About the battles and the generals. You visit the battlefields. Chattanooga, Chickamauga, Stone Mountain, Nashville, Atlanta, Savannah, Charleston, Richmond...you see and visit these places hands on growing up. You feel and touch these places vs the Napoleon battlefields so far away. The cultural differences and the aversion to the north is still prevalent. My Dad still calls them Yankees haha. Things have come a long way since then and the sixties though...but yes the removal of Confederate names and monuments is of course very controversial in these places...
My hypothesis is that for those Grogheads who live in the South, you have a much more personal feel to the USCW, as the battlefields, both big and small, are near where you live. Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and the Carolinas have major battlefields within 30 minutes drive of any major population center. Minor battlefields are everywhere throughout the South. Heck, half the housing developments have roads named after people who fought in the USCW, and until recently every school district had at least one school named after a Civil War personality. In the North, it isn't quite as common. Aside from Antietam, Gettysburg, Harper's Ferry and Monocacy, there aren't any battlefields to remind us Yankees of our heritage. Thus, for many of us, it is a more faint echo than for those from the south. I'm probably a bit different, as my family is originally from Adams County, PA (in fact, the opening shot of Gettysburg probably embedded itself somewhere on the family farm but that's another story....). North of the Mason-Dixon line, there aren't as many monuments to the USCW in what remains of our small towns, so the memory of that was is somewhat dimmer. Additionally, much of the immigration that took place after the Civil War went to northern cities. These immigrants didn't have ties at all to the USCW, so naturally it doesn't have the same pull to them, or to their descendants as it does to those living in the south.
Yes that makes sense. And yes there are a ton of schools in Alabama named after confederate generals among other things although they are changing the names or have changed them. I'm trying to remember any Union monuments or histories I have seen in my travels in the north. In Maine I saw signs about Joshua Chamberlain and the college he taught at. Can anyone else describe some others around? I have seen some things in DC of course. Never been to Antietam or Gettysburg that is a goal one day!
^If you get the chance visit West Point, US Military Academy, and your thirst will be slaked :cool:
Quote from: Gusington on July 20, 2024, 06:50:18 PM^If you get the chance visit West Point, US Military Academy, and your thirst will be slaked :cool:
Aha yes of course!
"The cultural differences and the aversion to the north is still prevalent. My Dad still calls them Yankees haha. Things have come a long way since then and the sixties though...but yes the removal of Confederate names and monuments is of course very controversial in these places..."
Probably one reason I have an aversion to the South to this day. In my humble opinion the victorious North should have pounded the South to dust and forbade any use of symbols, flags and/or memorials to the traitorous southerners. Similar to how Nazi Germany and Nazi symbology was and is banned in Germany. The leadership in the North following the Civil War (and up to about 1900) was poor. I won't get into the mistakes of the Reconstruction Era.
As far as visits are concerned I'd throw in Springfield, Illinois (Lincoln), Galena, Illinois (Grant) and I'll throw in Arlington National Cemetery.
I really hope they get on with the remastering of the Civil War titles. There's really nothing else like them.
Quote from: Old TImer on July 21, 2024, 05:13:44 PMProbably one reason I have an aversion to the South to this day. In my humble opinion the victorious North should have pounded the South to dust and forbade any use of symbols, flags and/or memorials to the traitorous southerners. Similar to how Nazi Germany and Nazi symbology was and is banned in Germany. The leadership in the North following the Civil War (and up to about 1900) was poor. I won't get into the mistakes of the Reconstruction Era.
This is entirely unnecessary and I think it is ridiculous to make a comparison between the antebellum South and Nazi Germany. The north did "pound the South into dust", which is exactly why people in the South have such long memories. Regardless, we have members here who are from and/or who presently live in the South and there is no reason to make comments that are likely to inflame or cause a debate over a very complex issue.
Thank you.
Quote from: Old TImer on July 21, 2024, 05:13:44 PM"The cultural differences and the aversion to the north is still prevalent. My Dad still calls them Yankees haha. Things have come a long way since then and the sixties though...but yes the removal of Confederate names and monuments is of course very controversial in these places..."
Probably one reason I have an aversion to the South to this day. In my humble opinion the victorious North should have pounded the South to dust and forbade any use of symbols, flags and/or memorials to the traitorous southerners. Similar to how Nazi Germany and Nazi symbology was and is banned in Germany. The leadership in the North following the Civil War (and up to about 1900) was poor. I won't get into the mistakes of the Reconstruction Era.
As far as visits are concerned I'd throw in Springfield, Illinois (Lincoln), Galena, Illinois (Grant) and I'll throw in Arlington National Cemetery.
I really hope they get on with the remastering of the Civil War titles. There's really nothing else like them.
Oh I certainly understand why many do. And many southerners do as well. Don't put all southerners in one basket. It has been an inner fight long going on. You can find lots of books on the subject. Culture is like religion it is something you are born and raised into and something you have to decide for yourself if you question one thing or another. As for myself I love the south and I hate the south. Have always been a questioner. It is my home but I see the cracks in the walls all over. I could go into modern day politics but that is a pandoras box to never open.
https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Lee-Me-Southerners-Reckoning/dp/1250239265
"In a forceful but humane narrative, former soldier and head of the West Point history department Ty Seidule's Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the myths and lies of the Confederate legacy―and explores why some of this country's oldest wounds have never healed.
Ty Seidule grew up revering Robert E. Lee. From his southern childhood to his service in the U.S. Army, every part of his life reinforced the Lost Cause myth: that Lee was the greatest man who ever lived, and that the Confederates were underdogs who lost the Civil War with honor. Now, as a retired brigadier general and Professor Emeritus of History at West Point, his view has radically changed. From a soldier, a scholar, and a southerner, Ty Seidule believes that American history demands a reckoning.
In a unique blend of history and reflection, Seidule deconstructs the truth about the Confederacy―that its undisputed primary goal was the subjugation and enslavement of Black Americans―and directly challenges the idea of honoring those who labored to preserve that system and committed treason in their failed attempt to achieve it. Through the arc of Seidule's own life, as well as the culture that formed him, he seeks a path to understanding why the facts of the Civil War have remained buried beneath layers of myth and even outright lies―and how they embody a cultural gulf that separates millions of Americans to this day.
Part history lecture, part meditation on the Civil War and its fallout, and part memoir, Robert E. Lee and Me challenges the deeply-held legends and myths of the Confederacy―and provides a surprising interpretation of essential truths that our country still has a difficult time articulating and accepting."
Nice suggestions yes I loved my visit to Arlington. Of course Robert E. Lee's house is there as well...
Apologies for a stupid thoughtless post. Caught me in a bad mood. Sorry to all I offended.
Quote from: Old TImer on July 21, 2024, 07:03:16 PMApologies for a stupid thoughtless post. Caught me in a bad mood. Sorry to all I offended.
No worries, Old Timer.
Thanks!
I remember a few years ago I had to go to a conference outside of Norfolk, Virginia, and my hotel was on Stonewall Jackson Parkway. I thought that was pretty cool.
I totally understand comparing the Old South to Nazi Germany: despite lots of big and important differences, it's certainly true that slavery was a hellish reality that the eventual consolidated government broke the Union to try to keep for themselves.
Mom and I just watched Gone with the Wind, me for the first time (aside from snatches here and there), Mom for the first time since she was a teenager -- that's a really much more complex film than "Yankees bad" (though we still call northerners Yankees down here, affectionately usually), which is the modern rap it tends to get. The streaming service where we watched it, even had to feature a snowflake disclaimer about how the film -- not the topical setting mind you, which would be understandable, but the film itself -- is supposedly a terribly racist and deplorable product of its time! When its Academy Award winner was a black actress who has maybe ten minutes total screentime! It's a fine role and performance, no doubt, but really, what?
Its story and presentation (at least on film, I've never read the book) is actually super-critical of the various cultural levels that led the South to secede in order to keep its slave state from even naturally falling apart a while longer. At a superficial level, sure, the film can be watched as propaganda for slaves having a great life, partly because all people are people and people can love and respect one another across the worst possible class differences -- but the nightmare isn't far below the surface. (Unlike in, to give a groggy example, Gods and Generals, where the love and respect is on rare display but the nightmare isn't to even the same small proportion.)
Of course as grogs we know on one hand that we can play wars and battles as good sports without agreeing with the hideous realities behind the wars, thus without necessarily having to acknowledge those realities while in the game -- because the game is the goal in itself. Thus I look forward to playing the South in the ACW asap on the updated SoW engine! Because reality is more complicated than a friendly game, we can study all aspects of conflict on one hand while enjoying some of those aspects on the other.
The North did absolutely shatter the South: that's why Sherman burned King Kong's gate on his march to the sea! :cool: (I pointed that out to Mom while the buggy was passing by it.) But some leaders in the North realized that a true union could not be reforged without the people of the states becoming friends again, instead of the South being reduced to an iron curtain ghetto under the dominion of carpetbagging opportunists. Those leaders prevailed historically, and the whole planet had better be glad that that included allowing honor to fallen enemies -- because that union of wary but real friendship between former foes who slew one another more grievously than anyone else has ever slain them, before or since, has helped save the world from something worse than the Old South several times in several ways.
The supervillains of the world today (whomever different people will regard them to be, and wherever they may be) will not be unhappy at all if the friendship of the people of the United States shatters to pieces once again. It is no exaggeration in today's world to say that the future existence of humanity, as such, depends not entirely but still crucially on the cooperative respect of people, both socially and militarily in honor of each other, in and around fallen Atlanta, for people in and around victorious New York City -- or Lancaster, Ohio for that matter.
........so, in conclusion, Grogheads must be one of the twelve pillars on which the world still stands, the end, good night! :ThumbsUp: :ymca:
Did you watch the Disney version? If so I think that one did have some scenes removed?
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 23, 2024, 11:22:47 PMI totally understand comparing the Old South to Nazi Germany: despite lots of big and important differences, it's certainly true that slavery was a hellish reality that the eventual consolidated government broke the Union to try to keep for themselves.
Mom and I just watched Gone with the Wind, me for the first time (aside from snatches here and there), Mom for the first time since she was a teenager -- that's a really much more complex film than "Yankees bad" (though we still call northerners Yankees down here, affectionately usually), which is the modern rap it tends to get. The streaming service where we watched it, even had to feature a snowflake disclaimer about how the film -- not the topical setting mind you, which would be understandable, but the film itself -- is supposedly a terribly racist and deplorable product of its time! When its Academy Award winner was a black actress who has maybe ten minutes total screentime! It's a fine role and performance, no doubt, but really, what?
Its story and presentation (at least on film, I've never read the book) is actually super-critical of the various cultural levels that led the South to secede in order to keep its slave state from even naturally falling apart a while longer. At a superficial level, sure, the film can be watched as propaganda for slaves having a great life, partly because all people are people and people can love and respect one another across the worst possible class differences -- but the nightmare isn't far below the surface. (Unlike in, to give a groggy example, Gods and Generals, where the love and respect is on rare display but the nightmare isn't to even the same small proportion.)
Of course as grogs we know on one hand that we can play wars and battles as good sports without agreeing with the hideous realities behind the wars, thus without necessarily having to acknowledge those realities while in the game -- because the game is the goal in itself. Thus I look forward to playing the South in the ACW asap on the updated SoW engine! Because reality is more complicated than a friendly game, we can study all aspects of conflict on one hand while enjoying some of those aspects on the other.
The North did absolutely shatter the South: that's why Sherman burned King Kong's gate on his march to the sea! :cool: (I pointed that out to Mom while the buggy was passing by it.) But some leaders in the North realized that a true union could not be reforged without the people of the states becoming friends again, instead of the South being reduced to an iron curtain ghetto under the dominion of carpetbagging opportunists. Those leaders prevailed historically, and the whole planet had better be glad that that included allowing honor to fallen enemies -- because that union of wary but real friendship between former foes who slew one another more grievously than anyone else has ever slain them, before or since, has helped save the world from something worse than the Old South several times in several ways.
The supervillains of the world today (whomever different people will regard them to be, and wherever they may be) will not be unhappy at all if the friendship of the people of the United States shatters to pieces once again. It is no exaggeration in today's world to say that the future existence of humanity, as such, depends not entirely but still crucially on the cooperative respect of people, both socially and militarily in honor of each other, in and around fallen Atlanta, for people in and around victorious New York City -- or Lancaster, Ohio for that matter.
........so, in conclusion, Grogheads must be one of the twelve pillars on which the world still stands, the end, good night! :ThumbsUp: :ymca:
Jason-Excellent post.
Important to remember R.E. Lee was personally opposed to slavery believing it was destructive to the Southern Middle Class. Thomas Jackson violated Virginia state law to teach black slaves and freed men to read and write so they could read and preach the Bible among themselves. And every anti-slavery organization in the nation was based in the South prior to John Brown's Raid, all of them connected to southern churches. History is not one shade of either black or white.
Well I stopped by to see the SOW thread and it took a turn, but good comments made by all, still made it worth the read.
George Thomas, a southerner (Virginia), seems to encapsulate the war for me.
Like Lee, he was offered a command in Virginia's army. But instead, he stayed in the Union Army and took a command under Sherman.
After Chatanooga, a chaplain asked Thomas if the dead should be buried by state as had been done at Gettysburg.
Thomas' reply sums up the war for me in a small way. "No, no, mix them up, mix them up" He said. "I'm tired of state's rights."
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/catching-up-with-old-slow-trot-148045684/ (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/catching-up-with-old-slow-trot-148045684/)
Quote from: Destraex on July 24, 2024, 03:31:55 AMDid you watch the Disney version? If so I think that one did have some scenes removed?
Definitely not Disney, I don't have that service. I'm pretty sure it was Prime but I haven't checked recently... okay, figured how to check at Amazon, and confirmed it was rented from Prime.
Guys...can we please return the discussion in this thread to one about the actual game. :headscratch:
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 24, 2024, 09:04:02 PMQuote from: Destraex on July 24, 2024, 03:31:55 AMDid you watch the Disney version? If so I think that one did have some scenes removed?
Definitely not Disney, I don't have that service. I'm pretty sure it was Prime but I haven't checked recently... okay, figured how to check at Amazon, and confirmed it was rented from Prime.
Prime would have the disney version as well. I just wondered if you saw the unedited older version (I had only heard and not verified that disney changed it after acquiring the rights) your thoughts may or may not be different.
I will leave it at that though as Jar wants us back on topic. I just felt I needed to explain what I meant.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 24, 2024, 09:32:38 PMGuys...can we please return the discussion in this thread to one about the actual game. :headscratch:
This is a thread about a game?
Well, going back up a while, I had meant to ask Des: could you show some before/after shots for comparison? I think I know what you meant by the gfx difference, but just to be sure...
Also, what do the smoke effects look like during a fight? :magnify: Especially with 1:1 troops on the map. I recall that the original game engine toned down the smoke to make things easier to 'play', which mods beefed back up again. Having 1:1 men on the map would also check how much the smoke calcs depend on physical representation of the sprites on the map. I'm sure the underlying manpower makes a difference, as well as the physical shape of a unit to some degree -- a regiment throwing volleys in Nappy's fighting column will have an obviously different smoke-print than a battle-line of battalions, regardless of the visual unit ratio, though come to think of it I've never tried to fight anyone while a line was scattered out in dispersion (in trees for example) to avoid concentrated incoming fire effects.
......I mean, I could be slightly less lazy and actually play the game for myself, and see; :Nerd: but then I'd have to be the one to post demonstration pix and I'm not totally sure how to get my image links back up and running on my new rig, sigh.
Well it seems that waterloo may be doomed to obscurity after the dev seems to have become more ambitious over doing a new engine for gettysburg as a separate game? Just when I thought Napoleonic wargaming had finally got a win.
Basically it sounds like the dev is trying to figure the fastest way to get gettysburg out which would be the fan favourite. I think this would possibly result in waterloo being a poor cousin that would potentially miss out on any advancements that gettysburgs concentrated development time would get.
This kinda feels like that time company of heroes announced it was going to release on xbox.
In reality the dev is probably worrying about combining code for two different games where the older gettysburg code needs to be inserted into the newer waterloo code. But the result would probably be the same. Less time on waterloo. This probably would have been the case anyway.
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2205330/view/4357879827216785902?l=english
Jason just saw your posts. I will see about some before and after
Shots.
Not going to lie, excited they will fast track Civil War titles as much prefer them...but certainly understand others don't feel that way. Either way, they are probably still aways off based on how long it took for the initial release, but who knows.
I saw the same post from the dev. I'm fine with him putting in SoW:WL, and its expansions (not technically released yet), before going to GB, even though personally I'd appreciate GB more. The truly salient question is whether it's worth making GB (and its expansions) a DLC for SoW:WL, or making it a standalone game -- he says at the same pricepoint either way. The hurdles for upgrading the GB engine to WL seem very problematic, although I don't know why the map(s) and gfx assets (and mere data assets) couldn't be ported over. Fans have been doing something like that already for years, whether backfilling GB with Take Command missions, or front-filling those engines with later battles -- and either way setting up new ACW battles.
Of course if the hurdles can be hurded (.....I declare "hurded" to be a real word...), that would make future patches and upgrades to the basic engine a unitary matter, saving time and energy in the long run.
This statement really says it all. Waterloo work seems to have slowed or ceased even before it's out of early access because the dev is more passionate about getting gettysburg out probably as a separate development project?
" Now that's what I'm talking about. I got the x64 build working and just going around those maps is AWESOME! Maybe because I'm an American, maybe because of all the time I spent walking those battlefields, maybe the team meetings in GB with those no longer with us, but it gives me chills. I love GB and I want to do it justice.
In my mind this is just a step along the way. It's breaking down the problem. I can slowly move GB to Remastered, while giving those waiting what they want. I'd be doing most of the same work in the end as to shove GB into RM would end up having the wrong type of AI. So I have to break it down.
It's running, need to add some async, then test MP. Gotta get the artwork and trailer for the store too. But I'm moving as fast as I can. Biondo is my right hand these days. So give him a huge shout out when you see him."
My dreams of waterloo being concentrated on seemingly are dashed.
Can't wait for Gettysburg and glad they are making progress on it.
I was actually sort of looking forward to them being under the same engine/launcher. It's a bummer that it looks like he is going back to two separate products.
Quote from: JasonPratt on July 31, 2024, 01:31:00 PMOf course if the hurdles can be hurded (.....I declare "hurded" to be a real word...)
Pretty sure hurdles are hurdled
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on August 02, 2024, 06:38:29 AMCan't wait for Gettysburg and glad they are making progress on it.
Not wven a teeny bit of empathy?
Grim indeed ;)
Quote from: Destraex on August 02, 2024, 06:02:35 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on August 02, 2024, 06:38:29 AMCan't wait for Gettysburg and glad they are making progress on it.
Not wven a teeny bit of empathy?
Grim indeed ;)
Likewise for us people who want gb? Gb has never even been released on steam, which some people would prefer even if available prior on matrix system. Waterloo has already received the basic remaster so I see nothing wrong with them trying to satisfy a likely big group of people who want gb. Also don't think I read norb indicating complete doom for Waterloo so we'll have to see what they do there.
We all have different tastes for what we like and nothing wrong with being glad they are working on a subject matter that I personally like a lot better.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on August 02, 2024, 08:18:59 PMQuote from: Destraex on August 02, 2024, 06:02:35 PMQuote from: Grim.Reaper on August 02, 2024, 06:38:29 AMCan't wait for Gettysburg and glad they are making progress on it.
Not wven a teeny bit of empathy?
Grim indeed ;)
Likewise for us people who want gb? Gb has never even been released on steam, which some people would prefer even if available prior on matrix system. Waterloo has already received the basic remaster so I see nothing wrong with them trying to satisfy a likely big group of people who want gb. Also don't think I read norb indicating complete doom for Waterloo so we'll have to see what they do there.
We all have different tastes for what we like and nothing wrong with being glad they are working on a subject matter that I personally like a lot better.
I don't think it's complete doom for waterloo either. But it's certainly not finishing one item before moving to the next swiftly. I still think Waterloo will be left the poor cousin. I did not realise GB has never been on steam, that will be a big plus for you. Probably what I missed in this whole scenario.
Again, I would be fine with seeing WL finished out to the pin and in the hole first, but it looks like Norb saw a financially overwhelming desire to finish porting GB to Steam, and then realized he was going to have insurmountable trouble doing that while also finishing up the WL remaster, so has pivoted to the larger fanbase request -- whom he has now polled about whether to release under its own separately developed and improved prior engine, or converted to the WL engine for further parallel polishing.
This reminds me again to check in with our buddy Asid over at Dogs of War to see what they're making of all this -- he and his crew had some excellent UI and presentation mods for the original games.
So it seems a decision has been made. One that I find satisfactory.
What "I think" they are doing is putting SOW: Gettysburg on steam with minimal changes just to get it into the hands of fans hankering to play it over waterloo.
Then they are completing waterloo's remaster
Then it seems they are going over to gettysburg and remastering that game.
Apparently this was the announcement.
"The store page for GB has just gotten approved this morning and it's now live. This is the original GB offered again on Steam with the performance enhancements and Steam integration as Remastered. Our goal is to eventually have only one engine driving the gameplay for all of our games. It's a big project, so we wanted to get GB out there in the mean time. We've had a ton of requests because GB has never been on Steam. One thing we do promise is that our games for a battle will cost the same as the DLC for the battle. So whether you buy GB as a game, or wait and buy it as a DLC for remastered, you'll pay the same price and get the same great features.
The Scourge Of War series has enjoyed an awesome community on Steam and the entire team is very excited to bring more great new features. Steam has been excellent for development and we hope to integrate everything that makes sense.
NorbSoftDev is an indie game company that has been creating wargames for over 20 years. The team is from all around the world and none are full time game developers. They are wargamers from all walks of life and just share a love for the type of warfare from another time. Scourge Of War is a game engine specifically created for regimental based warfare and completely moddable and unlimited as to what you can create by only your imagination"
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2205330/view/4357881096239177823?l=english
Didn't see them specifically say they were completing the Waterloo remaster after posting Gettysburg on steam, but maybe I missed the post where that was discussed. Even if not stated, I certainly expect them to continue enhancing Waterloo and Gettysburg regardless. They do mention still working towards a combined engine so maybe that is what was meant.
Sounds like Gettysburg should be available in about two weeks as steam requires a store page to be up for two weeks prior to release. Also looks like they did release the Quatre Bras DLC for Waterloo, although from what I can tell if you own the prior version, will still work although you have to make sure placed in correct folders and such. I'll probably re-purchase to have everything part of the normal steam install, plus support the developers a bit. It is $8.99 right now.
Do you think owners of SOW:GB on Matrix will get a Steam key?
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on August 10, 2024, 04:23:26 AMDidn't see them specifically say they were completing the Waterloo remaster after posting Gettysburg on steam, but maybe I missed the post where that was discussed. Even if not stated, I certainly expect them to continue enhancing Waterloo and Gettysburg regardless. They do mention still working towards a combined engine so maybe that is what was meant.
Sounds like Gettysburg should be available in about two weeks as steam requires a store page to be up for two weeks prior to release. Also looks like they did release the Quatre Bras DLC for Waterloo, although from what I can tell if you own the prior version, will still work although you have to make sure placed in correct folders and such. I'll probably re-purchase to have everything part of the normal steam install, plus support the developers a bit. It is $8.99 right now.
I got that from steam from a guy I know is a pretty big fan and keeps up to date. Perhaps he has it wrong as he is not a dev.
"Captain rex 17 hours ago
this is the original version with some performance enhancements and steam integration
when they have the version on the Waterloo engine working they will update this to that version
they are putting this here now so that people (like me) who don't want to wait to experience the civil war can experience it"
https://steamcommunity.com/app/3142400/discussions/0/4509877684745134574/
Quote from: Rayfer on August 10, 2024, 07:15:55 AMDo you think owners of SOW:GB on Matrix will get a Steam key?
I very much doubt it after all these years.
Quote from: Rayfer on August 10, 2024, 07:15:55 AMDo you think owners of SOW:GB on Matrix will get a Steam key?
No, pretty sure has been officially stated that all the remaster stuff requires a new purchase. However, the remastered game and content has been priced decent for me so I don't mind, especially if it keeps enhancements coming.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on August 10, 2024, 04:23:26 AM... I'll probably re-purchase to have everything part of the normal steam install, plus support the developers a bit. It is $8.99 right now.
I will repurchase, for the exact same reason. My experience with BoC has shown me that working on a game takes
enormous amounts of effort. For indie companies, it really is a labor of love, so to buy the game (or DLC) again is a small sacrifice, and helps to ensure that the indie designs are around to help ensure that future generations of gamers have the same opportunity to mis-spend their youth that I have had. :laugh:
The square. Deployed many times during the Napoleonic wars.
(https://i.imgur.com/Cmb72c1.png)
I just saw this on the Steam page. Looks like they may be issuing Gettysburg by the end of the month (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2205330/Scourge_Of_War__Remastered/):
Last year we made some promises to our players. We said that there would be a big sale on the price of GB. We said that the same engine would run GB and WL. We said that even if you bought WL first, you'd be able to buy GB as DLC.
I wish I could take all that back, but I can't so we did it. It would have been much easier to just have the two separate games, or just one game. But I have a big mouth and we all like to do what ever we can to say thanks to everyone for supporting Scourge Of War.
We initially moved to Steam to take advantage of their MP and Lobby system. We did that. We also got both games out fairly quickly. This last step of completely moving GB to the new engine has been tough.
We will be releasing it all towards the end of the month and it will be greatly discounted, as we promised.
We only hope we don't miss too many issues. There will still be some tweaking involved in completely porting the AI.
They are still nowhere near finishing waterloo I don't think, which seemed to be abandoned for gettysburg for now. You can only use the new graphics in sandbox mode through an i game mod tool.
Scourge of War Gettysburg released today:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3136610/Scourge_of_War_Remastered__Gettysburg/
40% discount until May 5. With the Discount, it is $26 USD. I just purchased, because it is a great game.
Looks like the Gettysburg DLC didn't work out, and will be pulled from Steam Page, with purchasers getting a refund. Its a little complex, but it sounds like the idea of Gettysburg and Waterloo will have to be different games, and not a DLC off of the Waterloo game engine. I assume that the developer will continue to work on Gettysburg as a remastered title (with hopefully the Chancellorsville and Antietam DLCs) to follow shortly thereafter. The developer's note on this situation is reproduced in full below:
The Gettysburg DLC did not go as planned. Our testing, our planning ignored one major area that is a no go. Can Steam support what we are trying to do. It cannot. I'm not blaming it on anyone but me and our team. We should have caught this and known before we released.
Our plan was to put GB as DLC for WL and WL as DLC for GB. So no matter which path you choose, you can get what you want. We tried to be everything to everyone and it failed miserably. Soon after launch players pointed out these issues and research showed that there was no good solution.
In our testing we were just trying to get everything working. We mostly tested the DLC, as the stand alone game would be the same engine. We got everything working at the last hour. But just did not spend enough time integration testing. Even with all that there are still bugs we missed and it sucks. But all we can do is own up to them and fix them. We cannot move forward until we have the solid base.
Two apps cannot share the same workshop, so all mods would have to be copied and supported in two areas. The same issue comes into play in the game lobby. Although there may be a hack for it, it could get shut down in the future. So GB DLC could not MP against GB stand alone and that's not acceptable.
The only solution that solves these issues is to discontinue the GB DLC, give everyone a refund. I've already requested this from Steam and am waiting to hear back. I cannot shut down the store right now or change it.
We apologize that this happened and we are trying to make it right as quickly as possible. Thank you to everyone who jumped on this and found these issues very quickly.
Can't say I did not see this coming. The whole project does seem fairly add hoc in it's approach.
The workshop is probably the best thing about the remaster steam integration. If you peruse the workshop for Waterloo, you'll find all the kriegspiel content that turns the game into a whole new game. You can play scenarios from 1812 campaign in Russia.
I think the workshop is part of the reason Gettysburg dlc didn't work. Tbh Gettysburg as a separate game with its own work shop will be Better in the long run. But the mod possibilities with Gettysburg and the steam workshop will make it worth it.
I still hope they pull it off. But I also think it is a shame that a newer engine with better presentation for the ground textures especially was not used. I like the nee terrain graphics but the game still looks very old and the interface is still very clunky.
The whole thing is still very much a work in progress.
Yeah, I was kind of meh on the remaster graphics wise....looks the same. I waited for a major discounted sale, like now to get it. Definatly worth it onsale with the ease of steam integration and mod workshop.
Quote from: Skoop on May 02, 2025, 03:34:42 PMYeah, I was kind of meh on the remaster graphics wise....looks the same. I waited for a major discounted sale, like now to get it. Definatly worth it onsale with the ease of steam integration and mod workshop.
You can only use the new terrain by:
A) going to the mod menu in game and enabling the new terrain.
B) playing a game from the sandbox menu of the waterloo battle.
Otherwise you will not see anything but old graphics. That is how poor this implementation is, you literally have to have inside knowledge to get the remaster working properly. When you do, you find it works through a kind of back door like modders rather than the devs wrote it.
OK. So the devs have improved this a little in the steam BETA build.
Here are some shots of how the game looks now that trees are less of a hard coded thing and the game allows you to draw more in.
The top shot is the steam community picture... this is what I wanted. But you only get it with a mod on a map that is out of scale and has problems iirc, but comes pre-installed as a choice from the mod menu and is not usable in the default scenarios but rather only as a sandbox.
(https://i.imgur.com/ebvYTQu.png)
This is what I got and I am settled with for now. Happy enough. These shots are from the current BETA build.
The difference is that I can now see enough of the trees and terrain that I can orient myself with the battlefield. Before terrain was so sparse I had a hard time orienting things, terrain looked like a moonscape with a few shrubs. The terrain would change and draw in all over the place like a chamelion every time you moved the camera a small distance.
(https://i.imgur.com/aJuiN2w.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yvR6F4U.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/b1uW7YH.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/b1uW7YH.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wvyKgDL.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WV8P0G8.jpeg)
Looks like a major update that includes a tonne of performance and graphical updates is coming on october 1st.
I will definitely be having a look.
Post processing and bump mapping for terrain as well as multi core tree rendering that took things from 10 to 60fps on the worst performing tree tests sounds great.