I'm playing sea power, I'm kind of dabbling with CMO, I'm reading big Toms book
Is there an operational or strategic game that deals with the whole scenario air/land/sea - I know there's harpoon and cmo and sea power but I'm suffering a disconnect between the sea ops with there been land ops
Just seeing if there's a Western Europe, Baltic, Iceland, uk all encompassing game
I'm very hard pressed to think of any game that will include the platforms across the full spectrum of operations better than CMO.
I'm not sure I follow you on the "disconnect". Do you mean that the sea operations are more featured than those on land?
Sometimes what I do in those situations is play totally different games. Like I may run sea and air operations in Sea Power or CMO and then switch to WDS Modern Campaigns when I want to focus on the ground campaigns and sort of just role play the continuity. I know that is not the answer you're looking for, so I'll continue to brainstorm.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 15, 2025, 08:48:44 AMI'm not sure I follow you on the "disconnect". Do you mean that the sea operations are more featured than those on land?
Sometimes what I do in those situations is play totally different games. Like I may run sea and air operations in Sea Power or CMO and then switch to WDS Modern Campaigns when I want to focus on the ground campaigns and sort of just role play the continuity. I know that is not the answer you're looking for, so I'll continue to brainstorm.
That's exactly it - I might find a scenario that has me defending or attacking Keflavik with sea power and cmo but without a switch to the marines and airborne taking the airfield and bases after it, it seems a little disjointed
Like you say it might be better to role play the thing across multiple games
Is the complexity of the ground operations matching those of the sea and air elements necessary to your enjoyment of the simulation, or are you comfortable with what CMO presently offers and just have not found the right scenario that offers the best mix?
While ground operations in CMO are certainly not the focus of the simulation, I find the databases are pretty complete and the core fundamentals, such as terrain and its affect on movement speed, visibility, and the impact of weapons are modeled. I believe damage calculations and ballistics are modeled too, but definitely less so and not as granular as with air and sea combat. While the ground elements have certainly been a focus of improvement over the years, they are obviously present in the game to facilitate and support the real stars of the show, who cruise in the air and on sea.
Organizationally, I'm not aware of any scenario in CMO that would model corps or divisional scale ground units and combat, and so this might be the biggest hurdle to seeing a realistic conventional ground war between NATO and Pact forces in CMO. Even if these units could be built within a scenario, I'm not sure the tools or UI would be there to make it practical in a gaming sense. I love CMO, but I'm really a neophyte when it comes to the more complex scenarios and I tend to avoid them. I prefer smaller action that doesn't get me stressed out.
DCS
lol I slay myself
It's not exactly what you're asking for, but MicroProse's Red Storm Rising game is amazing, and that's what I thought we were gonna discuss in here. ;)
https://www.mobygames.com/game/1655/red-storm-rising/
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 15, 2025, 09:24:16 AMIs the complexity of the ground operations matching those of the sea and air elements necessary to your enjoyment of the simulation, or are you comfortable with what CMO presently offers and just have not found the right scenario that offers the best mix?
While ground operations in CMO are certainly not the focus of the simulation, I find the databases are pretty complete and the core fundamentals, such as terrain and its affect on movement speed, visibility, and the impact of weapons are modeled. I believe damage calculations and ballistics are modeled too, but definitely less so and not as granular as with air and sea combat. While the ground elements have certainly been a focus of improvement over the years, they are obviously present in the game to facilitate and support the real stars of the show, who cruise in the air and on sea.
Organizationally, I'm not aware of any scenario in CMO that would model corps or divisional scale ground units and combat, and so this might be the biggest hurdle to seeing a realistic conventional ground war between NATO and Pact forces in CMO. Even if these units could be built within a scenario, I'm not sure the tools or UI would be there to make it practical in a gaming sense. I love CMO, but I'm really a neophyte when it comes to the more complex scenarios and I tend to avoid them. I prefer smaller action that doesn't get me stressed out.
Wait wait wtf!!!
There's ground ops in CMO?
Holy crap - 2 years for me and I did not know this
I was only looking for some abstract your forces have landed successfully you have won - just something connecting the air/sea to a land victory
I'm going back in!!
Quote from: undercovergeek on July 15, 2025, 11:29:31 AMQuote from: Jarhead0331 on July 15, 2025, 09:24:16 AMIs the complexity of the ground operations matching those of the sea and air elements necessary to your enjoyment of the simulation, or are you comfortable with what CMO presently offers and just have not found the right scenario that offers the best mix?
While ground operations in CMO are certainly not the focus of the simulation, I find the databases are pretty complete and the core fundamentals, such as terrain and its affect on movement speed, visibility, and the impact of weapons are modeled. I believe damage calculations and ballistics are modeled too, but definitely less so and not as granular as with air and sea combat. While the ground elements have certainly been a focus of improvement over the years, they are obviously present in the game to facilitate and support the real stars of the show, who cruise in the air and on sea.
Organizationally, I'm not aware of any scenario in CMO that would model corps or divisional scale ground units and combat, and so this might be the biggest hurdle to seeing a realistic conventional ground war between NATO and Pact forces in CMO. Even if these units could be built within a scenario, I'm not sure the tools or UI would be there to make it practical in a gaming sense. I love CMO, but I'm really a neophyte when it comes to the more complex scenarios and I tend to avoid them. I prefer smaller action that doesn't get me stressed out.
Wait wait wtf!!!
There's ground ops in CMO?
Holy crap - 2 years for me and I did not know this
I was only looking for some abstract your forces have landed successfully you have won - just something connecting the air/sea to a land victory
I'm going back in!!
Dude...that is totally a thing in CMO. There are tons of missions where you land ground forces for a whole host of reasons. SAR, elimination of HVTs, assaults, etc.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 15, 2025, 11:57:43 AMQuote from: undercovergeek on July 15, 2025, 11:29:31 AMQuote from: Jarhead0331 on July 15, 2025, 09:24:16 AMIs the complexity of the ground operations matching those of the sea and air elements necessary to your enjoyment of the simulation, or are you comfortable with what CMO presently offers and just have not found the right scenario that offers the best mix?
While ground operations in CMO are certainly not the focus of the simulation, I find the databases are pretty complete and the core fundamentals, such as terrain and its affect on movement speed, visibility, and the impact of weapons are modeled. I believe damage calculations and ballistics are modeled too, but definitely less so and not as granular as with air and sea combat. While the ground elements have certainly been a focus of improvement over the years, they are obviously present in the game to facilitate and support the real stars of the show, who cruise in the air and on sea.
Organizationally, I'm not aware of any scenario in CMO that would model corps or divisional scale ground units and combat, and so this might be the biggest hurdle to seeing a realistic conventional ground war between NATO and Pact forces in CMO. Even if these units could be built within a scenario, I'm not sure the tools or UI would be there to make it practical in a gaming sense. I love CMO, but I'm really a neophyte when it comes to the more complex scenarios and I tend to avoid them. I prefer smaller action that doesn't get me stressed out.
Wait wait wtf!!!
There's ground ops in CMO?
Holy crap - 2 years for me and I did not know this
I was only looking for some abstract your forces have landed successfully you have won - just something connecting the air/sea to a land victory
I'm going back in!!
Dude...that is totally a thing in CMO. There are tons of missions where you land ground forces for a whole host of reasons. SAR, elimination of HVTs, assaults, etc.
I'm ashamed 😳
You errr don't have some links to those do you
Quote from: undercovergeek on July 15, 2025, 12:53:39 PMI'm ashamed 😳
You errr don't have some links to those do you
Many of them actually come with the game and are in the scenario database. I'm not sure what DLCs you have, but check out some of the stand alone scenarios, for instance. You'll find some ops like Raid on Kismayo, 2013. The Blue player commands the Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group conducting a covert operation in Somalia to observe an al-Qaeda courier and once acquired, to launch a direct action mission to capture him. Raven 21, 1976 is another good one. A Navy EKA-3b is downed and the player is tasked with sending a force of SEALs and Marines from USS Tarawa to locate and secure the crash site.
There is a bunch of cool crap like this in the mission database. Have fun!
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on July 15, 2025, 01:09:19 PMQuote from: undercovergeek on July 15, 2025, 12:53:39 PMI'm ashamed 😳
You errr don't have some links to those do you
Many of them actually come with the game and are in the scenario database. I'm not sure what DLCs you have, but check out some of the stand alone scenarios, for instance. You'll find some ops like Raid on Kismayo, 2013. The Blue player commands the Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group conducting a covert operation in Somalia to observe an al-Qaeda courier and once acquired, to launch a direct action mission to capture him. Raven 21, 1976 is another good one. A Navy EKA-3b is downed and the player is tasked with sending a force of SEALs and Marines from USS Tarawa to locate and secure the crash site.
There is a bunch of cool crap like this in the mission database. Have fun!
Thanks buddy
Hey UCG.
You're looking for an operational game. I think CMO will give you the tactical flavor - like one battle for Iceland. But what I was looking for (and I think you are) is where that long SLOC between the US and Europe has an impact on the land battle.
CMO (IMO, and unless I'm wrong) won't provide that experience. CMO is definitely at the tactical level. You need a simulation with say a month to months in which to see the effects of SLOC attrition. RSR is like a 3-month or something conflict; it's been a while since I read the book. Regardless, CMO doesn't give that experience.
I don't think what you're looking for exists. There was this guy, a very, very long time ago, with whom I chatted that was trying to tie Harpoon and Operational Art of War together to do exactly what you are talking about. It never came to fruition that I know of. What I think is the best simulation of this, now, is War in the Pacific or maybe the Warplan games. These are operational level which is where we want to be. I don't want to figure out my country's diplomatic nonsense, I just want to fight a 3 month campaign. I don't know of any game that does that, but it would be my grail. There was a means to link the manual boardgames of RSR and Hunt for Red October together - why somebody like gameleaper doesn't take that and make a computer game I don't know because it will absolutely kill.
If you find something that satisfies your itch be sure to post up, because I've been looking for this game for a very long time, too.
Quote from: SpaceGameJunkie on July 15, 2025, 10:59:21 AMIt's not exactly what you're asking for, but MicroProse's Red Storm Rising game is amazing, and that's what I thought we were gonna discuss in here. ;)
https://www.mobygames.com/game/1655/red-storm-rising/
That's what drew me to the thread, too. Does that game still work on Windows 10 or 11? It's pretty awesome.
Quote from: glen55 on July 16, 2025, 11:48:51 AMThat's what drew me to the thread, too. Does that game still work on Windows 10 or 11? It's pretty awesome.
It's a DOS game, so it works wonderfully with DOSBox. I play it with Magic DOSBox on my tablet.
Quote from: glen55 on July 16, 2025, 11:48:51 AMQuote from: SpaceGameJunkie on July 15, 2025, 10:59:21 AMIt's not exactly what you're asking for, but MicroProse's Red Storm Rising game is amazing, and that's what I thought we were gonna discuss in here. ;)
https://www.mobygames.com/game/1655/red-storm-rising/
That's what drew me to the thread, too. Does that game still work on Windows 10 or 11? It's pretty awesome.
Changed the thread title to avoid anymore confusion
SGS NATO's Nightmare is mostly land and air operations in north central Europe during 1985 Cold War gone hot. There is some naval action in the Baltic Sea, but not much more beyond that region.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1849360/SGS_NATOs_Nightmare/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1849360/SGS_NATOs_Nightmare/)
Quote from: Lowenstaat on July 17, 2025, 07:23:20 PMSGS NATO's Nightmare is mostly land and air operations in north central Europe during 1985 Cold War gone hot. There is some naval action in the Baltic Sea, but not much more beyond that region.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1849360/SGS_NATOs_Nightmare/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1849360/SGS_NATOs_Nightmare/)
I have it - played hours and hours via pbem
I have no idea what's going on in the game
I've watched let's plays, like I said I've played at least 5 pbems against people I know
I even thought I was winning in one of them
Such a terrible system 😂😫