GrogHeads Forum

I figured it was just a matter of time.  You put the Muslim Brotherhood in power and theis was bound to be the result.

Egyptian demonstrators climbed the walls of the U.S. Embassy in Cairo today and pulled down the American flag to protest a film they say is insulting to the prophet Mohammad.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/09/11/cairo-us-embassy-protesters-prophet-mohammad/70000126/1#.UE-AdkbCz8A

So how's giving Eygpt another billion bucks make you feel now, America?

Maybe if we told the Egyptian people that money was coming in from the Great Satan/America, they'd refuse it, or burn it, or something.

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This makes my blood boil.

I wouldn't mind a few Jarhead0331s hosing down those walls with their SAWs...

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QuoteWaste those motherf*ckers.

I think there comes a time (well past, imho) where we just have to say that they are never gonna love us and we push all our chips towards Israel. Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Iran and Iraq.....the very most stable situation we've had is propping up some tin-pot dictator with our cash and arms while we armed Israel and hoped the whole damn thing wouldn't go up. They don't like us. We should get over it and move on.

And now it's spread to Lybia. 

An armed mob protesting over a film they said offended Islam, attacked the US consulate in the Libyan city of Benghazi on Tuesday and set fire to the building, witnesses reported.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/9/52597/World/International/Mob-sets-fire-to-US-consulate-in-Benghazi-witness.aspx

Huh.  Go figure. 

And the developing news is not getting any better out of Lybia.

US official has been killed and others wounded in Libya as an armed mob protesting over a film they said offended Islam attacked the US consulate in Benghazi.

http://news.sky.com/story/983922/us-official-killed-in-libya-prophet-protest

It would be good if the US minimized its presence in the Middle East as a whole with the exception of Israel, and let them get on with the business of butchering each other, a la Iran/Iraq in the 1980s. That would benefit the US, Israel and the west as a whole. I have to tell you that I am totally sick of 'Muslim rage,' especially on the heels of billions of US dollars. Screw them. There's a reason why the are loathed by the rest of the world and the links and pics above give a good indication as to why. Enough already. Try rebuilding your own damned societies and countries with your own damned money.

The unfortunate effect of a US "withdrawl" I think would be catastrophic for the Isreali state.  Yes Isreal has a hell of a military, but many of the wolves at its doorstep are (or were) kepted at bay by American influence in the region.  Everything changed the moment that Egypt came under complete control of the Islamic Brotherhood and the US foreign policy embraced the change.  You went from a regime in Egypt with basically friendly relations with Isreal to one openly hostile in its rhetoric.  Dangerous times for the Isreali state these days unfortunately.

Quote from: Bison on September 11, 2012, 07:23:13 PM
And the developing news is not getting any better out of Lybia.

US official has been killed and others wounded in Libya as an armed mob protesting over a film they said offended Islam attacked the US consulate in Benghazi.

http://news.sky.com/story/983922/us-official-killed-in-libya-prophet-protest

That is not good news. Let's hope history does not start rhyming with 1979.

The saddest part is its not even front page on any of the big media news sites I checked.  For crying out loud MSNBC lead story is a bash on Bush for 9/11.

Quote from: Bison on September 11, 2012, 08:00:39 PM
The saddest part is its not even front page on any of the big media news sites I checked. 

That's neglectful IMHO, though it could be all the A-teams are asleep by now. But if this isn't a big story by morning it will be negligence.

The good news is that the mainstream media no longer has a lock on information. The truth will out.

I bet we end up apologizing for this 'film'    >:(


By the way what film are they all worked up about?

Quote from: TheCommandTent on September 11, 2012, 08:28:02 PM
I bet we end up apologizing for this 'film'    >:(

Your President and his administration has already apologized.

Quote
The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others

Nobody, and I mean nobody, grovels like this administration.  It is pathetic.

In light of that eloquent apology - presumably relations have improved? Have we reached the "I'm OK you're OK" stage now?

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the apology.  I was really hoping for us to, you know, act like we have a pair.

Honestly the apology doesn't make much sense. The whole 'freedom of speech' thing. Granted, I have not seen the film but don't filmmakers also have the right in the US to say almost anything? Come on now.

Quote from: TheCommandTent on September 11, 2012, 08:28:02 PM
I bet we end up apologizing for this 'film'    >:(


By the way what film are they all worked up about?

All the news is really mum about this "film." Like really bad journalism mum. They barely mention it and it seems pretty key to the protestors (or at least we are supposed to believe it was key for the protesters).

The CNN article has some strange reference to the film being made by the "expatriate members of Egypt's Christian minority in the United States." Huh?! And apparently they are worked up because it discusses Mohammed's sex life?

The total lack of coherent coverage of this seems to be bizarre.

But, on the other hand, I'm glad this isn't front page today. We need 9/11 remembrance on the front page. Let the hate these people are spewing hit lower pages until tomorrow.

Hmm. If I didn't know any better I'd say that Obama doesn't like whatever Netanyahu might have to say to him. Wonder what that means

QuoteThe president will chat with the "Late Show" host during a trip to New York City next week, according to the National Journal. Letterman's nightly monologues mostly spare the president from satirical ribbing, saving his most cutting remarks for the Romneys ... or even former President George W. Bush.

The news comes on the same day Obama told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu he couldn't meet with him due to a scheduling conflict.

Source: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/09/11/obama-back-letterman

Yeah I saw that LB.  Crazy.

this crap is going to get worse:

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QuoteAugust 6, 2012
IDF Chief of Staff, Lt. Gen Banny Gantz visits the scene of the terrorist attack after the terrorists from Sinai failed to carry out an attack on Israeli soil with a hijacked Egyptian tank.
Photo: Gal Ashuach, IDF Spokesperson's Unit

Quote from: TheCommandTent on September 11, 2012, 08:28:02 PM
I bet we end up apologizing for this 'film'    >:(


By the way what film are they all worked up about?

here is a 'trailer' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntgzoE7rU9A  ...looks like some strange amateurish MontyPython-without-the-fun style mockery?

so i would prefer a hard-fact BBC-style documentary about Mu.ham.mad debunked as the childmolester and warlord that he was, and how he 'monotheisted' the old Moon-God of his clan to destroy the culture of the defeated clans banning their multi-Deity-believe religion to stabilize his regional power (he was very successful with his rule-set -called Quran- to pool arabic tribes so to spread their imperialistic power...and now we have the sh(i)it ) ...and in addition how the backward interpretation ol Islam is growing and their medieval-mindset is secretly sneaking upon us in our societies today, which can be seen more and more if you take a stroll through your local mall on a hot day, see piggy-banks vanish out of preemptive PC and Pizza chain suddenly has only porkfree selections...   


   

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 11, 2012, 08:34:54 PM
Your President and his administration has already apologized.

QuoteThe Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others

Nobody, and I mean nobody, grovels like this administration.  It is pathetic.

Actually, that apology was issued by the embassy in Cairo, and was later disavowed by the Obama administration.  Now, it doesn't look good when the embassy and the administration they're supposed to work for aren't singing the same song.

At my current job, if I put out a press release that was later 'disavowed' by the Governor...that would = instant firing

Discussion on the news this morning is that there are fears that riots may erupt throughout the middle east focused on our embassies.

Our "October Surprise" may be a month early.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/us-ambassador-to-libya-and-3-embassy-staff-members-reportedly-killed-in-libya/

Please keep them and their families in your thought/prayers today.

Arab Spring gets nasty. It will be interesting to see Os response...

This is the thanks we get huh?  If we are sending them aid it should end immediately.

And what happened to the Ambassador's security.  The article made no mention of it, that I could tell.

Quote from: TheCommandTent on September 12, 2012, 08:23:36 AM
And what happened to the Ambassador's security.  The article made no mention of it, that I could tell.

Chances are we don't know yet (or have just figured it out and are digesting the details) and are trying to get a handle on it before it goes public.

Quote from: TheCommandTent on September 12, 2012, 08:23:36 AM
This is the thanks we get huh?  If we are sending them aid it should end immediately.

And what happened to the Ambassador's security.  The article made no mention of it, that I could tell.

If the attackers are connected to the Libyan regime, or if the Libyan government's response is less than harsh in prosecuting the murders, THEN the US and all democratic allies should pull-up stakes from Libya in protest.

The president is scheduled to speak about this in 30 minutes - 10:35 Eastern if anyone wants to tune in. I'll probably watch. Hopefully we'll get the strongest possible statement on this to discourage more violence.

The Arab Spring is turning into exactly what I expected it too.  God bless those who lost their lives in service to the United States.

No surprised by any of this. 

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 09:08:09 AM
No surprised by any of this.

I'm surprised at the timing. Seems suspect but what do I know?

Quote from: TheCommandTent on September 11, 2012, 08:46:52 PM
I know I shouldn't be surprised by the apology.  I was really hoping for us to, you know, act like we have a pair.

He would have to fight Michelle for them, and frankly he is to scared of her to try and get them back!!  :P

Quote from: son_of_montfort on September 11, 2012, 09:27:41 PM

Quote from: TheCommandTent on September 11, 2012, 08:28:02 PM
I bet we end up apologizing for this 'film'    >:(


By the way what film are they all worked up about?

All the news is really mum about this "film." Like really bad journalism mum. They barely mention it and it seems pretty key to the protestors (or at least we are supposed to believe it was key for the protesters).

The CNN article has some strange reference to the film being made by the "expatriate members of Egypt's Christian minority in the United States." Huh?! And apparently they are worked up because it discusses Mohammed's sex life?

The total lack of coherent coverage of this seems to be bizarre.

But, on the other hand, I'm glad this isn't front page today. We need 9/11 remembrance on the front page. Let the hate these people are spewing hit lower pages until tomorrow.

It may be because this isn't anything new.  We see this every couple of years.  Someone practices freedom of speech in their country and the radical Muslims go crazy. 

I don't know if they were coordinated in two different nations seems unlikely.  However that is something we may find out later to be the case.  I seems very likely IMO that the Egypt attack was coordinated for 9/11.  I need to find out more about this supposed film.  When was it made?  Where was it shown?  Only to find out how close it all was to the attack. 

Now you have Hamid Karzai condemning the movie and religious intolerance in Afghanistan.  Whether the attack was planned doesn't matter.  It's going to inflame anti-American rhetoric dramatically in the region.  Especially because of the "success" that I'm sure many of the extreme movements will view it as being.  Tearing down an American flag from an Ambassy and killing an Ambassador? 

I have merged these topics - it's getting intertwined and a bit difficult to follow the discussion(s).

In addition, Romney has just made a statement in between Hillary's statement and the upcoming Obama statement.

It seems pretty clear Romney is going to make this a political issue front and center.

I don't like how Obama has handled things but I'm not sure we need what may appear to be a divided voice.

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 09:31:53 AMI need to find out more about this supposed film.  When was it made?  Where was it shown?  Only to find out how close it all was to the attack. 

It was made in the US and distributed through YouTube.  As of yesterday, it had about 6000 hits.  Total.  Count has gone up significantly with all the US folks wondering what the story was.
However, the word that was spread in the MidEast was that it was some "Hollywood blockbuster" and because most of the undereducated psychoreligiofantatics that inhabit the third world sandpits of the MidEast can't envision any society in which things happen without explicit gov't approval, clearly no film could ever be made without the US gov't approving it, right?  Therefore this was US policy to insult Islam and denigrate their religion and we had to be taught a lesson. 
The knowledge of the film had been spreading across the MidEast for some time (at least 2-3 months) and the story apparently morphed into "it was being released nationwide in the US on 9/11" and thus the timing of the protests at the embassies.

I don't think that "fuck it, we're going home" is the right answer, because you can't just walk away from a discussion with someone and then expect them to suddenly somehow see your point.  We can't withdraw our diplomatic missions, but we damn sure need to protect them better.
That said, I think we absolutely can turn off the money pipes, and tell folks that until our diplomats can be protected by the host nations, we'll spend their aid money fortifying our embassies instead.  Just be prepared for the Putin kleptocracy to step in with their petro-dollars to fill the void.

I think the US need to re-evaluate it's entire policy of foreign aid.

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 09:44:17 AMI think the US need to re-evaluate it's entire policy of foreign aid.

+1

The president just spoke.

He said all the right words but somehow he seemed...almost out of touch. Maybe shocked. I don't know. Something seemed wrong there. I can't put my finger on it.

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 09:44:17 AM
I think the US need to re-evaluate it's entire policy of foreign aid.

At the very least, we need to re-think sending $$ to countries that obviously don't like us i.e., Pakistan (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/10/exclusive-jailed-doc-who-helped-nail-bin-laden-warns-us-seen-as-pakistan-worst/)

Quote from: LongBlade on September 12, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
The president just spoke.

He said all the right words but somehow he seemed...almost out of touch. Maybe shocked. I don't know. Something seemed wrong there. I can't put my finger on it.

He's probably in denial.  He can't believe that he's going to haver to deal with a major international incident while he's campaining for re-election. His whole re-election bid depends on how he handles this...

Quote from: LongBlade on September 12, 2012, 09:14:30 AM

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 09:08:09 AM
No surprised by any of this.

I'm surprised at the timing. Seems suspect but what do I know?

You think that the Mormon/Republican Illuminati is out kicking hornet's nests in Egypt and Libya to make Barry look bad?

Quote from: Centurion40 on September 12, 2012, 10:18:27 AM

Quote from: LongBlade on September 12, 2012, 09:14:30 AM

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 09:08:09 AM
No surprised by any of this.

I'm surprised at the timing. Seems suspect but what do I know?

You think that the Mormon/Republican Illuminati is out kicking hornet's nests in Egypt and Libya to make Barry look bad?

Nay, Dick Cheney did it.

At least the take away from this is simple - let Syria go, help would be potentially dangerous in the long-term if Egypt and Libya are any examples. Until Israel becomes an island in a sea of glass this shit will continue....

Quote from: MIGMaster on September 12, 2012, 10:32:05 AM
At least the take away from this is simple - let Syria go, help would be potentially dangerous in the long-term if Egypt and Libya are any examples. Until Israel becomes an island in a sea of glass this shit will continue....

Wisdom from the woods!  Agreed on all points.

Quote from: Centurion40 on September 12, 2012, 10:18:27 AM
You think that the Mormon/Republican Illuminati is out kicking hornet's nests in Egypt and Libya to make Barry look bad?

Not exactly.

My first thought was that, after being relatively quiet for so long, why now? Then I wondered why on that date?

Then I wondered if the snub of Netanyahu had anything to do with it. *That* is a conspiracy theory I might be willing to watch on TV.

the best thing would be if we can avoid war with Iran and its population will bring down its regime, sick of its mismanagement. that would be the hardest blow to islamists that i can imagine.

a limited strike on nuclear facilities may soon be necessary but it sure will get the regime some 'legimitation' back.

All of these animals must die...I do not know why the world tolerates their incorrigible existence.  Remember Somalia?  Remember Fallujah?  Maybe we will remember Benghazi too?  What is next?

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/408364_10152076367900123_207673420_n.jpg)

Quote from: Keunert on September 12, 2012, 01:34:02 PMget the regime some 'legimitation' back.

Kenny, the word you're looking for is "legitimacy"
But we knew what you meant ;)

extremely disgusting actions.



german: Legitimation - englify - small l!

I'm just waiting for the administration to apologize for Jarhead's posting of the pics here. I'm sure its coming.

And all the news can talk about is Romney, trying to paint his reaction as somehow misguided.

You know, considering the tone of the apology...which I swear to God when I read it my first thought was that it must be from The Onion...but the end of the statement, which reads "We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.".....you have to wonder, how long will it be before the Dems here try to codify "hate speech" in the same way that they have done in Canada and parts of Europe? I can only imagine a future day after some other horrific event when we are apologizing yet again even as Homeland Security sweeps up the American producers of such a film, or comic strip, or any material deemed "offensive". I try to stay off of the right wing paranoia branch occupied by Harley, but when our government talks about the offensive use of free speech which "hurts feelings", even as our personnel lie bleeding....wtf??? Who the hell are we anymore???

Oh and here is more for us to chew on......http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL5E8KCJ5X20120912 (http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL5E8KCJ5X20120912)

Seems the Egyptian President is upset....not with the protestors, but with the filmmaker who supposedly caused all this.

Quote from: Steelgrave on September 12, 2012, 03:54:42 PM
Oh and here is more for us to chew on......http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL5E8KCJ5X20120912 (http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFL5E8KCJ5X20120912)

Seems the Egyptian President is upset....not with the protestors, but with the filmmaker who supposedly caused all this.

Of course, this can probably be (at least in part) chalked up to self preservation. He can either follow the crowd or be part of the next Egyptian government toppled by it.

^Who would want to "govern" these ingrates anyway? Seems the only people who are capable of governing them are those sadistic few megalomaniacs who have absolutely no reservation about engaging in murder, torture, blackmail and threats to stay in power. 

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 12, 2012, 04:07:16 PM
^Who would want to "govern" these ingrates anyway? Seems the only people who are capable of governing them are those sadistic few megalomaniacs who have absolutely no reservation about engaging in murder, torture, blackmail and threats to stay in power.

George Bush 1 was a man who understood Gulf War 1 and the regional equilibrium aftermath, one day I hope he gets a lot more credit for it.

In an odd connection, one of the staff killed yesterday was a gamer:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/diplomat-killed-in-libya-to-fellow-gamers-assuming-dont-die-tonight/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/diplomat-killed-in-libya-to-fellow-gamers-assuming-dont-die-tonight/)

When dad was stationed at RAF Mildenhall, I went to high school at Lakenheath, that's were some of the F-111's that Reagan sent to Libya came from.  How I miss those planes. 

The more I think about it, the more pissed I get at Obama.  He should never have commented on the film, instead he should have simply reinforced that part of having freedom of speech is having people express views you totally oppose.  And it's not those opposing views that create problems, but people's reactions to them.  All he seems to have done it tell people that perhaps freedom of speech is something we shouldn't have. 

I for one have no doubt that if this was Christians or a Jews that had reacted this way, he would have no problem with defending the people that created the violent reaction and condemned those committing the violence.

Hopefully Romney will craft this a another reason to get the heck off of Middle East oil, so we quit sending them hundreds of billions a year in oil sales and aid.  Nor would we have to spend billions on keeping a military presence there.

Quote from: Steelgrave on September 12, 2012, 05:04:25 PM
In an odd connection, one of the staff killed yesterday was a gamer:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/diplomat-killed-in-libya-to-fellow-gamers-assuming-dont-die-tonight/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/diplomat-killed-in-libya-to-fellow-gamers-assuming-dont-die-tonight/)

I saw this too Steelie.  Speaks volumes about the connections and friendships that can be made in virtual communities.

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 05:13:06 PM

Quote from: Steelgrave on September 12, 2012, 05:04:25 PM
In an odd connection, one of the staff killed yesterday was a gamer:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/diplomat-killed-in-libya-to-fellow-gamers-assuming-dont-die-tonight/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/diplomat-killed-in-libya-to-fellow-gamers-assuming-dont-die-tonight/)

I saw this too Steelie.  Speaks volumes about the connections and friendships that can be made in virtual communities.

Somehow that makes it just a little bit worse.

What do you mean LB?  That the guy a feeling that something was not right just a few hours before the attack?

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 05:27:30 PM
What do you mean LB?  That the guy a feeling that something was not right just a few hours before the attack?

I think he means, it's worse because he was "one of us."  And I agree...

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 12, 2012, 05:30:21 PM

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 05:27:30 PM
What do you mean LB?  That the guy a feeling that something was not right just a few hours before the attack?

I think he means, it's worse because he was "one of us."  And I agree...

Thanks. That's it. It gives me a slight personal connection to him and makes me feel just a bit more involved than I was before.

Yeah that's true.  I cannot get over the fact that he seemed to know something was awfully wrong with local contracted security photographing inside the compound.  See R&P I linked a report to Congress expressing extreme concern over using local security as a cost cutting measure in hostile areas for diplomatic conclaves.  The report was given over 2 years ago.  While not directly addressing Lybia it direct addresses the fact that issues were seen elsewhere and basically ignored. 

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 05:39:58 PM
I cannot get over the fact that he seemed to know something was awfully wrong with local contracted security photographing inside the compound. 

I heard a report - and haven't heard it repeated - on TV today that indicated that one of the local guards apparently directed the attackers to the correct house. :/

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 12, 2012, 04:07:16 PM
^Who would want to "govern" these ingrates anyway? Seems the only people who are capable of governing them are those sadistic few megalomaniacs who have absolutely no reservation about engaging in murder, torture, blackmail and threats to stay in power. 

It was an apalling, barbarous act, but I don't think the perpetrators represent all, or even most, Libyans or Muslims. Just as the nut in Norway or the whacko in Ohio don't represent all Christians.

I'm guessing they represent more than a fringe in Libya. Remember that a large majority of fighters in Afghanistan come from Libya.

Quote from: mirth on September 12, 2012, 06:06:46 PM

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 12, 2012, 04:07:16 PM
^Who would want to "govern" these ingrates anyway? Seems the only people who are capable of governing them are those sadistic few megalomaniacs who have absolutely no reservation about engaging in murder, torture, blackmail and threats to stay in power. 

It was an apalling, barbarous act, but I don't think the perpetrators represent all, or even most, Libyans or Muslims. Just as the nut in Norway or the whacko in Ohio don't represent all Christians.

I agree....somewhat. Yet in country after country, there never seems to be a shortage of volunteers to storm an embassy, riot, or put on a bomb vest and blow up a school bus. I suspect that the number is larger than we should feel comfortable with.

I'm not too sure its an action based on fringe rhetoric either.

Dollars to Donuts, I'll bet you those mobs were salted with well trained ringers from East of Mesopotamia with a fondness for silly parade uniforms.

^I'm not taking that bet. I can't say that my momma didn't raise no fools, but it wasn't me.

Quote from: Staggerwing on September 12, 2012, 06:25:52 PM
Dollars to Donuts, I'll bet you those mobs were salted with well trained ringers from East of Mesopotamia with a fondness for silly parade uniforms.

Color me skeptical on that one. Remember there's still a Sunni/Shia divide. I'm guessing this one is all Sunni.

Quote from: LongBlade on September 12, 2012, 06:52:27 PM

Quote from: Staggerwing on September 12, 2012, 06:25:52 PM
Dollars to Donuts, I'll bet you those mobs were salted with well trained ringers from East of Mesopotamia with a fondness for silly parade uniforms.

Color me skeptical on that one. Remember there's still a Sunni/Shia divide. I'm guessing this one is all Sunni.

Remember- Those Qudsies are probably wired to play the long game. Various mullahs have stated that committing small offenses against Islam such as going undercover and consorting with 'undesirables' including those whom might consider the agent provocateurs to be schismatics are acceptable if done as part of a greater plan to uphold Allah. These guys could have been in Libya for years getting set up in place. One can't assume that all the Sleepers are in Western countries. Hard core Wahhabi gang bangers also probably take a pragmatic approach to working with Iranian Shia operatives as well. After the influence of Western groups (and their money...) has diminished then the strongest standing can commence to bashing away at each other to assume control of the remaining mess. In their eyes all that Western rebuilding money is just another impediment. It's a lot easier to recruit from the dirt poor, frightened, and ignorant than from the fed, hopeful and educated.

Quote from: Bison on September 12, 2012, 09:31:53 AMI need to find out more about this supposed film.  When was it made?  Where was it shown?  Only to find out how close it all was to the attack. 

Bison, here are some more details.  And let's just say - it weeeee-eeeerd.

From The Atlantic yesterday
The Movie the Muslim World Is Furious About Might Not Even Be a Movie (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/09/movie-muslim-world-furious-about-might-not-even-be-movie/56804/)

QuoteFirst off, no one has been able to obtain a full-length copy of the film. The only evidence of its existence is in a 13.5 minute trailer on YouTube that is riddled with red flags. As BuzzFeed's Rosie Gray noticed, "The video is a compilation of the most clumsily overdubbed moments from what is in reality an incoherent, haphazardly-edited set of scenes." Just look at the horrid way the desert backdrop is green-screened into the background. This is a film with a $5 million budget?

The Tinseltown pros over at The Hollywood Reporter quickly pounced on the claim. "Though Bacile claims he spent $5 million on the movie — a figure that would put the film's on par with the Toronto festival entrant Julianne Moore-starrer What Maisie Knew — the 13 minutes of footage available online look unprofessional," wrote Jordan Zakarin. "Furthermore, Bacile has virtually no footprint in the Hollywood community. The writer-director-producer has no agent listed on IMDBPro and no credits on any film or TV production." Piling on, the Associated Press took a deeper dive after admitting to being deceived by Bacile. "Several Hollywood and California film industry groups and permit agencies said they had no records of the project," reported Shaya Tayefe Mohajer and Stephen Braun. So there's a lack of evidence of it being a real film. So who is this guy Sam Bacile?

That's an even bigger problem. As The Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg discovered when he contacted Steve Klein, a consultant on the film, Bacile was lying about his name and identity. "He's not Israeli, no," said Klein regarding his colleague. "I can tell you this for sure, the State of Israel is not involved ... His name is a pseudonym ... I doubt he's Jewish. I would suspect this is a disinformation campaign." Digging further, the AP notes that "The name Bacile also does not appear in searches of California state licenses, including the Department of Real Estate." Maybe Israeli officials know who he is? Nope! "Officials in Israel also said there was no record of Bacile as an Israeli citizen," reports the AP.

(There's more, but this is the meat of it)

And then the follow-up today
What We've Learned from the Cast & Crew of the Anti-Islam Movie (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/09/what-weve-learned-cast-crew-who-worked-muslim-innocence/56811/)

QuoteThe Associated Press and Buzzfeed both had important, revealing interviews with people supposedly involved. The AP spoke with Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, 55, who claims to be the manager of the company who made the movie. Buzzfeed spoke to a man going by the name Jimmy Israel, who worked for a short time on the movie as a producer. Israel found the movie because a friend was supposed to direct until Bacile showed up. He stuck around for a few days to try and help with production. This is what we were able to learn from the two stories:

Nakoula and Bacile are probably the same person. A cell phone number the AP used to speak to someone claiming to be Bacile traced back to the same location they met Nakoula. According to court papers, Nakoula has a number of aliases, including, "Nicola Bacily, Erwin Salameh and others." Jimmy Israel thinks they're the same person, too. He says when he asked Bacile for a legal name for registration with the Screen Actors Guild, Bacile said the name Bacile gave him was "Abnob Nakoula Basseley." He was also around 55, the same age the AP gives Nakoula. 

If they are the same person, Nakoula's online activity likely violates a previous court order. The AP discovered Nakoula is currently not allowed to go on the internet or use a computer without approval from a parole officer:

QuoteNakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.

The movie was originally about Coptic Christians. Israel said he found the project when it was still called Desert Warriors. He was told by his friend and Bacile the movie was about, "the historical persecution of Coptic Christians." Nakoula admitted to being a Coptic Christian to the AP, too.

The budget wasn't anywhere close to $5 million. It was closer to $100,000, tops, according to Israel. "Israel suggests that, despite earlier reports that the film had millions of dollars of outside financing, the total outlay for the project couldn't have exceeded $100,000."

The movie played for at least a day in an old L.A. theater. The AP confirmed the movie did play "for a least a day, and possibly longer, several months ago," at the Vine Theater, a "faded Hollywood movie house," according to the AP. Also, this implies there's a finished, complete project somewhere.

(the italics are replaced text that was bold in the original; trying to differentiate from the headlines I posted earlier)

US Embassy in Yemen today was stormed.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/13/13840461-yemen-protesters-repelled-after-storming-us-embassy?lite&

And it continues.

Quote from: Bison on September 13, 2012, 08:32:03 AM
And it continues.

So much for looking strong on foreign policy.

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 08:55:34 AMSo much for looking strong on foreign policy.

I gotta ask, though - what is it you actually want him to do?  Start shooting people?  That's going to stop a riot?  Seriously?  I mean look, I'm not a fan of the President at all, but right now we're pretty option-constrained.  He may be responsible for some of those constraints, but (in)actions 14 months ago can't be undone now.  The key question is "what do we do now?"

We can
a} hunker down and hope for the best
b} withdraw and cut off a key line of engagement with the governments that (by and large) are friendly to us
c} hold foreign aid to be contingent on increased security from host nations and hope they don't see it as blackmail
d} beef up security with Blackwater
e} nuke 'em from orbit, just to be sure

I've heard a lot of people pissed off about what happened - and I don't disagree a bit - but no good, solid, concrete recommendations about what to do differently.  "Send in the Marines!"... to do what, exactly?  Shoot people?  Tear gas and sticky foam might help, in the short term.

But the bottom line is that we are dealing with a backwards society of savages who violently riot at the slightest provocation and show no desire to join a modern, tolerant, free-thinking and open-minded world in which a variety of viewpoints are met and engaged with reason and discussion instead of RPGs and Molotov cocktails.  Until the societies themselves want to change, these sorts of flare-ups will continue to happen, and the societies that engender them will continue to trail the rest of the world in economic, social, scientific, and intellectual development.  And it will be completely their own fault.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:07:26 AM
I gotta ask, though - what is it you actually want him to do?  Start shooting people?  That's going to stop a riot?  Seriously? 

I do not believe we have put forward a strong message. I think we have delivered the lines and gone through the motions but I don't think we have presented the image of a properly outraged nation.

I am no kool-aid drinking fan of Reagan, but compare Obama's message yesterday with how Reagan might have reacted.

Further, it's not about the immediate options. This has been building up for years. The Apology Tour started four years ago. Leading from behind compounded it.

Every talking head on TV tells me that the predominant culture in the greater middle east is impressed by messages of strength, not weakness. We are now reaping the seeds of weakness which were sewn about four years ago.

Let's shift to politics - Obama has been touting his foreign policy experience and how he is better qualified than anyone else.

How does that image look now?

Thus my comment: so much for looking strong on foreign policy.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:07:26 AM
....I gotta ask, though - what is it you actually want him to do?....

I think he could start by getting rid of Hilary Clinton.

Brant,

   I think you answered you own question.  If a sizable portion of the population of some of these countries don't want want to be part of the rest of the world, then that is fine with me.  However, we need to stop having any presence there.  ie, no diplomatic exchanges, no trade, do not allow their citizens to come the the US.  Let it be know that we will not interfere with their country or do any business with them, but if they come outside of their country to attack us or our people, where ever they may be, then they will suffer the consequences.  If they truly want to be on their own, fine, don't come crying to us for aid.  As for those that don't support the radicals and be hurt by such actions, then it's time that they stood up and took control of their own countries.

Quote from: Greybriar on September 13, 2012, 09:31:45 AMI think he could start by getting rid of Hilary Clinton.

I heartily disagree.  I think she's been the most competent SecState we've had in a while, and has been one of the few legitimate success stories in the Obama administration.  I don't know that she would've been a good President, but she's been a top-notch Secretary of State.

Quote from: OJsDad on September 13, 2012, 09:33:17 AMHowever, we need to stop having any presence there.  ie, no diplomatic exchanges, no trade, do not allow their citizens to come the the US. 

Without any sort of exchanges or interactions with them, how would you expect them to know anything about the benefits of moving their society forward a few hundred years?  Without allowing their citizens to come to the US, how do you expect them to go back home and spread the values and benefits of our way of life to their people?

Quote from: OJsDad on September 13, 2012, 09:33:17 AMdon't come crying to us for aid.

I think it depends on what kind of aid.  Again, showing off our ability and means to provide compassionate care in a crisis - like floods, earthquakes, etc - is a very positive form of engagement that can, and should, be continued.  Military aid?  Maybe not so much.

Quote from: OJsDad on September 13, 2012, 09:33:17 AMAs for those that don't support the radicals and be hurt by such actions, then it's time that they stood up and took control of their own countries.

Absolutely.  But keep in mind that you're talking about societies with a 9000-year-old tradition of "authoritarian-rule-by-strongman" and about 6 weeks of anything remotely resembling popular rule.

Well you could start with a strong condemnation of the assination of an Ambassador.  That would be something better then apologizing.  Just for starters.  Then you could start to have an honest discussion of the role that the US support of the Arab Spring played in prepping the field for days like we've had in the last few and I'm sure many more to come.  Realize it wasn't a two bit film no one ever heard of that was the root cause here.  I don't know, but its becoming apparent that this Administration to include Clinton are out of their league.

Quote from: Bison on September 13, 2012, 10:15:08 AM
I don't know, but its becoming apparent that this Administration to include Clinton are out of their league.

Up until now I haven't paid Clinton's performance much thought, so it's difficult for me to give her an evaluation. As best I can tell, she manages to find a way to be on the other side of the world when Obama does something dumb or controversial. Give her credit for that.

Tuesday, however, she and Obama had a distinctive deer-in-the-headlights look while delivering their speeches. I know I'm repeating myself, but they both looked like they had just had their world views stood upon their heads. Neither appeared strong in delivering their respective messages. They just looked there.

We have cultivated an international image of deference and submission for the last four years. I am sorry to say that I'm not surprised we're now finding it difficult to assert ourselves in a moment of crisis.

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 10:33:11 AMTuesday, however, she and Obama had a distinctive deer-in-the-headlights look while delivering their speeches. I know I'm repeating myself, but they both looked like they had just had their world views stood upon their heads. Neither appeared strong in delivering their respective messages. They just looked there.

The difference is, you could tell Hillary had been up all night.  She was tired, but knew exactly what was going on.  Obama was still trying to figure it out.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:38:52 AM

Quote from: Greybriar on September 13, 2012, 09:31:45 AMI think he could start by getting rid of Hilary Clinton.

I heartily disagree.  I think she's been the most competent SecState we've had in a while, and has been one of the few legitimate success stories in the Obama administration.  I don't know that she would've been a good President, but she's been a top-notch Secretary of State.

I have to agree with this. She has been an effective SecState. Far more so than I expected when she took the job. It pains me to acknowledge it because I have no love of Hillary Clinton.

She has been according to media reports getting more of a cold shoulder and shrug off with some of the major players lately.   China for instance.  But this isn't really about her, she still takes marching orders and follows them from the Oval Office.  If the reports are true that Panetta, Gates and Clinton forced the hand of the President to take out Osama, perhaps she needs more credit than I'm giving her.  Though her experience was pretty thin before getting the appointment as a consolation prize to unite the Clinton wing behind the last election.

It's a mistake for Romney to directly criticize the President on the handling of these events as they are unfolding. He has proxies to do that. He should back off for now.

He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

Quote from: Bison on September 13, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

I don't think he has to give them a pass. Like I said, he has proxies who can criticize for him. It was unseemly for Romney to directly offer criticism on the same day Americans died and while the details of the events were still not clearly known.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:43:21 AM

Quote from: OJsDad on September 13, 2012, 09:33:17 AMHowever, we need to stop having any presence there.  ie, no diplomatic exchanges, no trade, do not allow their citizens to come the the US. 

Without any sort of exchanges or interactions with them, how would you expect them to know anything about the benefits of moving their society forward a few hundred years?  Without allowing their citizens to come to the US, how do you expect them to go back home and spread the values and benefits of our way of life to their people?

What makes you think coming here they will either go back home, or have any desire to spread the values and benefits of our way of life.  It seems like they have a problem with accepting our values and benefits.

Quote from: bayonetbrant

Quote from: OJsDad on September 13, 2012, 09:33:17 AMdon't come crying to us for aid.

I think it depends on what kind of aid.  Again, showing off our ability and means to provide compassionate care in a crisis - like floods, earthquakes, etc - is a very positive form of engagement that can, and should, be continued.  Military aid?  Maybe not so much.

We've done this in the past with Iran.  Do you think those getting the aid knew where that aid came from.  I would be surprised if Iran didn't do their best to make sure everyone thought the aid from the Tehran.  Same with N. Korea.

Quote from: bayonetbrant

Quote from: OJsDad on September 13, 2012, 09:33:17 AMAs for those that don't support the radicals and be hurt by such actions, then it's time that they stood up and took control of their own countries.

Absolutely.  But keep in mind that you're talking about societies with a 9000-year-old tradition of "authoritarian-rule-by-strongman" and about 6 weeks of anything remotely resembling popular rule.

Doesn't that decribe most of the world until the last couple of hundred years. 

Having popular rule doens't mean that those same radicals cannot be elected to lead. 

In some ways, I agree with you.  However, at some point, we have to admit that we are just spinnnig our wheels.  If there are countries that are wanting our help and follow embrace the benefits of our way of life, then I would rather put those dollars there.  Of course, if we go bankrupt, it'll all be a mute point.

Quote from: mirth on September 13, 2012, 10:59:13 AM

Quote from: Bison on September 13, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

I don't think he has to give them a pass. Like I said, he has proxies who can criticize for him. It was unseemly for Romney to directly offer criticism on the same day Americans died and while the details of the events were still not clearly known.

He was going to be damned if did or didn't by the media.  But he said nothing in condemning the attacks and the Egyptian embassy's immediate response that is out of step with the majority of Americans.  The ones who were most "offended" were the media.

And the news keeps getting worse.   Now we find this out:

[U.S. Ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson] did not permit US Marine guards to carry live ammunition, according to USMC blogs. Thus she neutralized any US military capability that was dedicated to preserve her life and protect the US Embassy. In this respect, she did not defend US sovereign territory and betrayed her oath of office. She neutered the Marines posted to defend the embassy, trusting the Egyptians over the Marines.

Read more: http://nation.time.com/2012/09/13/whats-worse-no-marines-or-possibly-unarmed-marines/#ixzz26MtJiNsm

Good grief.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:07:26 AM

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 08:55:34 AMSo much for looking strong on foreign policy.

I gotta ask, though - what is it you actually want him to do?  Start shooting people?  That's going to stop a riot?  Seriously?  I mean look, I'm not a fan of the President at all, but right now we're pretty option-constrained.  He may be responsible for some of those constraints, but (in)actions 14 months ago can't be undone now.  The key question is "what do we do now?"

We can
a} hunker down and hope for the best
b} withdraw and cut off a key line of engagement with the governments that (by and large) are friendly to us
c} hold foreign aid to be contingent on increased security from host nations and hope they don't see it as blackmail
d} beef up security with Blackwater
e} nuke 'em from orbit, just to be sure

I've heard a lot of people pissed off about what happened - and I don't disagree a bit - but no good, solid, concrete recommendations about what to do differently.  "Send in the Marines!"... to do what, exactly?  Shoot people?  Tear gas and sticky foam might help, in the short term.

But the bottom line is that we are dealing with a backwards society of savages who violently riot at the slightest provocation and show no desire to join a modern, tolerant, free-thinking and open-minded world in which a variety of viewpoints are met and engaged with reason and discussion instead of RPGs and Molotov cocktails.  Until the societies themselves want to change, these sorts of flare-ups will continue to happen, and the societies that engender them will continue to trail the rest of the world in economic, social, scientific, and intellectual development.  And it will be completely their own fault.

That sums it up.

The problem is that reports are coming out of Lybia that the attack was planned and coordinated and not an action of a group of unorganized backward uneducated religious yokles rioting in the streets over a youtube video.  Remember back when the whole Lybia intervention happened that it was also reported that Al Queda was very involved within the rebel ranks.  We chose to ignore those reports and believe it was democracy wanting doctors, lawyers and teachers.

Wanis al-Sharef, eastern Libya's deputy interior minister, said on Thursday the attacks were suspected to have been timed to mark the 9/11 anniversary and that the militants used civilians protesting an anti-Islam film as cover for their action.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/13/consulate-attack-planned-as-2-part-militant-assault-libyan-official-says/#ixzz26N2eOVwK

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:07:26 AM

e} nuke 'em from orbit, just to be sure

The obvious answer...

As long as "we" are present in that region, "we" will have to deal with this kind of shit.

We will only disengage from that region when oil and Israel become irrelevant, and I can't see either thing happen any time soon.  We're not going to give up oil or turn our back on the only friendly, viable democracy in the region.

I restate my fondness for the concept of a re-born Ottoman Empire.  Let the Turks absorb and contain the shit.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:07:26 AM
But the bottom line is that we are dealing with a backwards society of savages who violently riot at the slightest provocation and show no desire to join a modern, tolerant, free-thinking and open-minded world in which a variety of viewpoints are met and engaged with reason and discussion instead of RPGs and Molotov cocktails. 

This for me is a salient point. Just because they access the internet and communicate through it does not mean they have moved their thinking into the 21st century. This is not meant to be racist but I watched those striking miners in South Africa and thought well they wear 21st century clothes and there are a few media devices there but are they acting any different from their tribal ancestors of the 1800's? A lot of my friends commented on this as well.
I am not saying we in the West are so superior as we have our far share of nut jobs i.e. the character who made this video causing all the grief. Our problem is that the nut job in the West knows how to enrage thousands elsewhere.

Quote from: Bison on September 13, 2012, 11:21:03 AM

Quote from: mirth on September 13, 2012, 10:59:13 AM

Quote from: Bison on September 13, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
He's done nothing that the current President didn't do in 2008 using the death of 9 service members to bash McCain and Bush.  Or Kerry in 2004.   We can respect and honor the dead.  They deserve no less.  I don't think with only 54 days to election you give the Adminstration a free pass for foreign policy decisions they've made leading up to this day and the immediate response.  Sorry.

I don't think he has to give them a pass. Like I said, he has proxies who can criticize for him. It was unseemly for Romney to directly offer criticism on the same day Americans died and while the details of the events were still not clearly known.

He was going to be damned if did or didn't by the media.  But he said nothing in condemning the attacks and the Egyptian embassy's immediate response that is out of step with the majority of Americans.  The ones who were most "offended" were the media.

He absolutely should have condemned the attacks. He could have easily done it without being critical of the current administration in the immediate aftermath.

All I'm saying is that it seems like the smart play for Romney was to rise above the immediate politics. He can still go after Obama in a few days or in a week. And he has plenty of others to step up and deliver criticism in the meantime.

Quote from: Centurion40 on September 13, 2012, 12:23:36 PM
I restate my fondness for the concept of a re-born Ottoman Empire.  Let the Turks absorb and contain the shit.

Good luck convincing the Turks to take over that pile of shit again.  :D

Quote from: The Puss on September 13, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
I am not saying we in the West are so superior as we have our far share of nut jobs i.e. the character who made this video causing all the grief.

That video wasn't out long enough for it to have had any impact in Libya. It might have sparked the riots in Egypt, or fueled them to greater heights.

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 02:22:33 PM
That video wasn't out long enough for it to have had any impact in Libya. It might have sparked the riots in Egypt, or fueled them to greater heights.

Twitter, Facebook, Youtube etc. This is my point, they have embraced 21st century tech but totally bypassed 21st century reasoning.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on September 13, 2012, 12:13:25 PM

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 13, 2012, 09:07:26 AM

e} nuke 'em from orbit, just to be sure

The obvious answer...

na, we need a highly virulent biological weapon were all ppl who have eaten a certain amount of pork in the last months are immune  ;) ... eating large portions of pork also works as a cure ;D

^ We need a Bacon Laser!

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 02:22:33 PM

Quote from: The Puss on September 13, 2012, 02:07:59 PMI am not saying we in the West are so superior as we have our far share of nut jobs i.e. the character who made this video causing all the grief.

That video wasn't out long enough for it to have had any impact in Libya. It might have sparked the riots in Egypt, or fueled them to greater heights.

That video has been out a while - at least several months

Quote from: The Puss on September 13, 2012, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 02:22:33 PM
That video wasn't out long enough for it to have had any impact in Libya. It might have sparked the riots in Egypt, or fueled them to greater heights.

Twitter, Facebook, Youtube etc. This is my point, they have embraced 21st century tech but totally bypassed 21st century reasoning.

Not sure if I've got the timeline right - I thought it was only about 15 minutes between release and attack.

All the talking heads on TV today are heavily discounting the video as anything other than a distraction. The attack was well coordinated and probably had been in the works for a long time. At least that's the message I'm hearing.

QuoteThe comments continued to contradict initial reports that the attack was a product of angry and violent protests over an anti-Islam film.

Rogers told Fox News he has "no doubt" it was a planned attack and had nothing to do with the film.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/13/consulate-attack-planned-as-2-part-militant-assault-libyan-official-says/

The good news is that some arrests have been made, though it is unclear whether they are major players in the operation or just usual suspects pulled off the street.

Quote from: Bison on September 13, 2012, 11:33:09 AM
And the news keeps getting worse.   Now we find this out:

[U.S. Ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson] did not permit US Marine guards to carry live ammunition, according to USMC blogs. Thus she neutralized any US military capability that was dedicated to preserve her life and protect the US Embassy. In this respect, she did not defend US sovereign territory and betrayed her oath of office. She neutered the Marines posted to defend the embassy, trusting the Egyptians over the Marines.

Read more: http://nation.time.com/2012/09/13/whats-worse-no-marines-or-possibly-unarmed-marines/#ixzz26MtJiNsm

Good grief.

:o

maybe they hand out at least this as a non lethal  ::)

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.tinypic.com%2F23m65xw.jpg&hash=b6498f79ea7f492023769a43ca1875252ab74800)
http://www.amazon.com/Accoutrements-12234-Bacon-Scented-Freshener/dp/B0083U1GU2/?tag=ga21-20

i would realy like to find out if this works as muslim repellent and for crowd control in 9oz spray cans

There's 2 things going on with the attacks/protests

1.  Movie was released a while ago, and the trailer is on YouTube.  The movie isn't new, but the awareness of it is.  Protests have been building in the MidEast b/c of a series of mis-informed rumors about the 'bigness' of the movie (it's not a Hollywood blockbuster), the timing of the release (not released on 9-11, but out for a while), and the 'blessing' of the government for the movie's release (which you never get/need in the US). 

2.  It appears as tho AQ-connected elements in Libya used the protests as a cover for a pretty concerted attack on the consulate.  Not only that, but apparently some of the local national security guys were killed in the attack while trying to protect the consulate, so it's not like it was some quasi-gov't-sponsored mob.

So the protests in Egypt, Libya, and Yemen all looked similar, but in Libya it looks like AQ folks took it a step further.

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 02:59:30 PM
All the talking heads on TV today are heavily discounting the video as anything other than a distraction.

Did you lot not get rather distracted over a barrel or two of tea? Now look where that has got you?
Just saying. 

According to senior diplomatic sources, the US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may be targeted, but no warnings were given for diplomats to go on high alert and "lockdown", under which movement is severely restricted.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html

This just gets worse by the hour.

Quote from: The Puss on September 13, 2012, 04:22:06 PM

Quote from: LongBlade on September 13, 2012, 02:59:30 PM
All the talking heads on TV today are heavily discounting the video as anything other than a distraction.

Did you lot not get rather distracted over a barrel or two of tea? Now look where that has got you?
Just saying.

What I've been saying is that the timing of this event indicates no influence on the attack - the attack was planned in advance and was not triggered by it.

Elsewhere in the world that isn't the case. But in Libya, the "movie" made no difference.

And here's the thing:

It's time to stand up for our values.

We, as Americans and Westerners, have learned to disagree on issues as significant as religion and as trivial as whether toast should be butter side up. We have learned to tolerate disagreement and not kill each other for it. Freedom of speech does not guarantee the right to not be offended. We can either let these crazy radicals push us around because they don't like our movies, how our women dress, what jobs they hold, or whether we eat toast butter side up.

Or we can tell them that they're going to have to live with us in a world where we disagree that showing a stupid-ass-movie should be met with violence.

One of our Founding Fathers, Patrick Henry, was debating with another man about the inclusion of the 1st Amendment (freedom of speech). The other man thought we ought not to have fully free speech.

Patrick Henry replied, "I may not agree with you, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

American values run deep. It's time we stood up for them.

Google's filtering access to the video now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/technology/google-blocks-inflammatory-video-in-egypt-and-libya.html?hp

Nice to know that murder and violence can be used to effectively censor the internet. That sends a great message.

Quote from: mirth on September 13, 2012, 09:40:22 PM
Google's filtering access to the video now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/technology/google-blocks-inflammatory-video-in-egypt-and-libya.html?hp

Nice to know that murder and violence can be used to effectively censor the internet. That sends a great message.

That's brilliant. Because nobody in the middle east has already downloaded it and might be hosting it on their own servers or anything.

 Well, I'm guessing Charles Bolden of NASA is going to be blamed for all this... (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/05/nasa-chief-frontier-better-relations-muslims/)

^I'd support it if NASA was trying to figure out how to send them all to the moon.

Well now we have an embassy burning in Tunisa and protest outside our London embassy, but nothing to see here.   Move along.  Everything is A'OK with our foreign policy.  Maybe we should bake them cookies next time to go along with our apology for being a free and open society.

I forgot to mention the Sudan, Yeman, Iraq, Isreal embassys.   Sorry slight oversight on an non-important issue we shouldn't question.

^^ blow-by-blow updates at CNN

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/14/witnesses-police-fire-on-protesters-near-u-s-embassy-in-yemen/?hpt=hp_t1

Is there anywhere in the world where it's safe? This is crazy.

Quote from: LongBlade on September 14, 2012, 10:55:55 AM
Is there anywhere in the world where it's safe? This is crazy.

well, the University of Texas is evacuating buildings b/c of a bomb threat, so... "no"

http://www.utexas.edu/emergency/
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/14/university-of-texas-evacuates-buildings-citing-threats/comment-page-1/

Quote from: LongBlade on September 14, 2012, 10:55:55 AM
Is there anywhere in the world where it's safe? This is crazy.

Yes.  My place.

Bunch of Hindu nut-bags in Toronto are planning to show the movie.  It'll be interesting to see if the gubmint will allow free speech or will prevent the showing.

And this is the BS they expect us to believe. 

CARNEY: We also need to understand that this is a fairly volatile situation and it is in response not to United States policy, and not to, obviously, the administration, or the American people, but it is in response to a video, a film that we have judged to be be reprehensible and disgusting.

http://freebeacon.com/carney-protests-not-directed-at-the-united-states/

There is the little problem of the embassy attacks being attacks on the United States itself.

Quote from: mirth on September 14, 2012, 02:06:30 PM
There is the little problem of the embassy attacks being attacks on the United States itself.

I'd like to hear the logic on this one.  Embassys are soveriegn to the nation they represent.

Quote from: Bison on September 14, 2012, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: mirth on September 14, 2012, 02:06:30 PM
There is the little problem of the embassy attacks being attacks on the United States itself.

I'd like to hear the logic on this one.  Embassys are soveriegn to the nation they represent.

Right. I'm saying that it's hard to accept that the riots and attacks aren't a response to US policy, the administration and the American people when they are tantamount to direct attacks on the US itself.

Quote from: Bison on September 14, 2012, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: mirth on September 14, 2012, 02:06:30 PM
There is the little problem of the embassy attacks being attacks on the United States itself.

I'd like to hear the logic on this one.  Embassys are soveriegn to the nation they represent.

I'd find my Picard facepalm but I've got to head out the door to get some kids from school.

I really am just nauseated by this whole thing, everything about it. Our flag being burned and replaced with Al Qaeda's...the deaths in Benghazi, the new attacks everywhere else. The official US milquetoasty response. I really do think if our generation had to fight Hitler we would lose before the fighting began. I'm willing to donate the balls on my mantle to the cause because everyone else has seemed to lost theirs.

Fuck all these people that take our aid money with one hand and punch us in the crotch with the other. FUCK THEM.

Quote from: Gusington on September 14, 2012, 07:46:14 PM
I really am just nauseated by this whole thing, everything about it. Our flag being burned and replaced with Al Qaeda's...the deaths in Benghazi, the new attacks everywhere else. The official US milquetoasty response. I really do think if our generation had to fight Hitler we would lose before the fighting began. I'm willing to donate the balls on my mantle to the cause because everyone else has seemed to lost theirs.

Fuck all these people that take our aid money with one hand and punch us in the crotch with the other. FUCK THEM.

Amen!!

Quote from: mirth on September 14, 2012, 02:59:51 PM

Quote from: Bison on September 14, 2012, 02:40:16 PM

Quote from: mirth on September 14, 2012, 02:06:30 PM
There is the little problem of the embassy attacks being attacks on the United States itself.

I'd like to hear the logic on this one.  Embassys are soveriegn to the nation they represent.

Right. I'm saying that it's hard to accept that the riots and attacks aren't a response to US policy, the administration and the American people when they are tantamount to direct attacks on the US itself.

Yeah.  I misread what you wrote.  Go figure. 

I love it when Doonesbury is pointing out the MoBro's doublespeak

Quote"Egyptians rise up to support Muhammad in front of the American Embassy."
-- Brotherhood Arabic tweet

"We're relieved none of @USEmbassyCairo staff were harmed and hope Eg relations will sustain turbulence of Tuesday's events."
-- Brotherhood English tweet

"Thanks. By the way, have you checked out your own Arabic feeds? I hope you know we read those too."
-- U.S. Embassy tweet

Also amusing from the official Embassy feed in Cairo... (http://twitter.com/USEmbassyCairo)

QuoteOf course we condemn breaches of our compound, we're the ones actually living through this.

what a weakass culture that feels the need to even talk about such a crappy movie. even more so to kill the ones that actually supported them against Ghaddaffi.

I think its pretty clear that the attack in Libya is an AQ job. They've probably been trolling youtube and internet forums for months looking for any thing to use as fodder for this. Then they started pushing this video on the 'Arab Street' and used flash-mob tactics to create a 'core' mob on the day in question they attacked the consulate to embarrass the new Libyan government with what would be one of the last things that body would want to have happen. The responsible parties over there know fully well how much they need the West, and especially the once-deep pockets of the USA, to rebuild their country.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F304315_10152086110195117_263960170_n.jpg&hash=9dc158f8d54caa175aa2b397d98694548e725b32)

oh yeah - and The Duffel Blog just had to weigh in (http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/09/following-cultural-awareness-class-marines-burn-down-own-embassy/), too y'know :)

QuoteFollowing Cultural Awareness Class, Marines Burn Down Own Embassy

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia – The anti-American protests spreading throughout the Islamic world over an anti-Muslim film took a startling turn today when the Marine Security Detachment at the U.S. Embassy in Malaysia decided to burn down their own embassy.
"Wow, that movie was really offensive," sobbed Corporal John Webb from Stockton, California, after he smashed the windows of the gatehouse he normally guards.  "We have to take a stand – a stand so loud and angry that no one will ever make something like this again!"
The detachment had recently attended a mandatory two-day culture class required for all Marines deploying to Muslim-majority countries, entitled "Islam: A Peaceably Peaceful Religion of Peace", sponsored by the Center for Advanced Operational Cultural Learning (CAOCL).
Following the class, the instructor showed the detachment the controversial movie trailer Innocence of Muslims, which has sparked massive protests and riots against US embassies and consulates in Egypt, Libya, and Yemen.
"I figured that since they now understood the basic tenets of the Islamic faith, they could appreciate the gut rage that many Muslims felt on seeing this offensive video," said CAOCL instructor George Robinson.
Instead the Marines became agitated, first attacking the projector and film screen, then refusing to return to their posts until the United States government had formally disowned the film and arrested its producer.
When US Ambassador Paul Jones came down to the classroom and explained that the best way to fight ignorance and hatred was through calm and rational discussion, after a brief moment of reflection, detachment commander Staff Sergeant Matthew Williams from Traverse City, Michigan yelled "No, fuck that!" and threw a paperweight at him.
The Marines then went on a rampage, smashing windows and overturning desks, until a mandatory evacuation of the embassy was ordered, at which point the Marines proceeded to further ransack the building and surrounding courtyard before burning the embassy to the ground.
"Thanks to my cultural training, I now totally empathize with the protesters," Sergeant Ethan Childers said, after he burned an American flag and yelled "Death to the Great Satan!"
Some members of the embassy staff initially applauded the Marines' actions as a type of clever ruse to evacuate the embassy and joined in, hurling stones and shouting anti-American slogans while blending into a crowd of onlookers gathering outside.
Not all Marines participated in the riots for cultural reasons: one sergeant said that he assumed by its production value that Innocence of Muslims was some type of pornographic film and flew into a blind rage when it ended with no sex.
Following the incident, spokesmen for CAOCL have pledged to reexamine their curriculum, the first time the organization has done so since 2005, when an instructor was caught hiring illegal Mexican immigrants to portray Iraqi insurgents.
The Marine Security Detachment has now announced that they will continue to occupy the embassy grounds until the makers of other crudely stereotypical films, such as The Hurt Locker and Battleship, have also been arrested.

Those rioting would not get that and that is part of the problem.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on September 15, 2012, 12:31:03 PM
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F304315_10152086110195117_263960170_n.jpg&hash=9dc158f8d54caa175aa2b397d98694548e725b32)

oh yeah - and The Duffel Blog just had to weigh in (http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/09/following-cultural-awareness-class-marines-burn-down-own-embassy/), too y'know :)

QuoteFollowing Cultural Awareness Class, Marines Burn Down Own Embassy

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia – The anti-American protests spreading throughout the Islamic world over an anti-Muslim film took a startling turn today when the Marine Security Detachment at the U.S. Embassy in Malaysia decided to burn down their own embassy.
"Wow, that movie was really offensive," sobbed Corporal John Webb from Stockton, California, after he smashed the windows of the gatehouse he normally guards.  "We have to take a stand – a stand so loud and angry that no one will ever make something like this again!"
The detachment had recently attended a mandatory two-day culture class required for all Marines deploying to Muslim-majority countries, entitled "Islam: A Peaceably Peaceful Religion of Peace", sponsored by the Center for Advanced Operational Cultural Learning (CAOCL).
Following the class, the instructor showed the detachment the controversial movie trailer Innocence of Muslims, which has sparked massive protests and riots against US embassies and consulates in Egypt, Libya, and Yemen.
"I figured that since they now understood the basic tenets of the Islamic faith, they could appreciate the gut rage that many Muslims felt on seeing this offensive video," said CAOCL instructor George Robinson.
Instead the Marines became agitated, first attacking the projector and film screen, then refusing to return to their posts until the United States government had formally disowned the film and arrested its producer.
When US Ambassador Paul Jones came down to the classroom and explained that the best way to fight ignorance and hatred was through calm and rational discussion, after a brief moment of reflection, detachment commander Staff Sergeant Matthew Williams from Traverse City, Michigan yelled "No, fuck that!" and threw a paperweight at him.
The Marines then went on a rampage, smashing windows and overturning desks, until a mandatory evacuation of the embassy was ordered, at which point the Marines proceeded to further ransack the building and surrounding courtyard before burning the embassy to the ground.
"Thanks to my cultural training, I now totally empathize with the protesters," Sergeant Ethan Childers said, after he burned an American flag and yelled "Death to the Great Satan!"
Some members of the embassy staff initially applauded the Marines' actions as a type of clever ruse to evacuate the embassy and joined in, hurling stones and shouting anti-American slogans while blending into a crowd of onlookers gathering outside.
Not all Marines participated in the riots for cultural reasons: one sergeant said that he assumed by its production value that Innocence of Muslims was some type of pornographic film and flew into a blind rage when it ended with no sex.
Following the incident, spokesmen for CAOCL have pledged to reexamine their curriculum, the first time the organization has done so since 2005, when an instructor was caught hiring illegal Mexican immigrants to portray Iraqi insurgents.
The Marine Security Detachment has now announced that they will continue to occupy the embassy grounds until the makers of other crudely stereotypical films, such as The Hurt Locker and Battleship, have also been arrested.

 State Dept doesn't want to be bothered with questions about the attack. (http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/14/state_department_stop_asking_us_about_the_benghazi_attack)  Maybe they'll take questions again, after the election?

Well, it is an FBI criminal investigation now. They don't want to tip off the attackers by releasing info about what they know. I'm sure there will be plenty of recriminations about security as well when the reports are released but it would be nice if they had some AQ thugs in custody (or their heads on a pole) first.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc6%2F248451_3759813995526_1432484929_n.jpg&hash=9aadf3d75fce8f51324de3745c1424929514a2cd)

And that's the short list.

Quote from: Bison on September 15, 2012, 09:47:16 PM
And that's the short list.

It is amazing how many attacks by followers of this "peace-loving" religon there have been world-wide over the years.  Here is a list just from 1968-2004 (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1993321/posts), and its probably incomplete.

It should be obvious by now that the unrest was whipped up to coincide with the aniversary of 9/11 and designed to divert the attention from the crimes of Islam. Now the leader of Hezbollah Nasralla tries to continue the ruckus to divert attention from the Syria.

Old Glory: 1     Pakistani "rally participant": 0

Quote
One of the participants of the rally, Abdullah Ismail, passed away after he was taken to Mayo Hospital. Witnesses said he had complained of feeling unwell from the smoke from US flags burnt at the rally.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/437772/ultimatum-to-us-criminalise-blasphemy-or-lose-consulate/

Quote from: steve58 on September 17, 2012, 10:38:08 AM
Old Glory: 1     Pakistani "rally participant": 0

Quote
One of the participants of the rally, Abdullah Ismail, passed away after he was taken to Mayo Hospital. Witnesses said he had complained of feeling unwell from the smoke from US flags burnt at the rally.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/437772/ultimatum-to-us-criminalise-blasphemy-or-lose-consulate/

Ha! Karma's a bitch!  8)

Quote from: steve58 on September 17, 2012, 10:38:08 AM
Old Glory: 1     Pakistani "rally participant": 0

Quote
One of the participants of the rally, Abdullah Ismail, passed away after he was taken to Mayo Hospital. Witnesses said he had complained of feeling unwell from the smoke from US flags burnt at the rally.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/437772/ultimatum-to-us-criminalise-blasphemy-or-lose-consulate/

Most of the comments below the article are rather encouraging.

Quote from: pawelj on September 17, 2012, 10:58:32 AM

Quote from: steve58 on September 17, 2012, 10:38:08 AM
Old Glory: 1     Pakistani "rally participant": 0

Quote
One of the participants of the rally, Abdullah Ismail, passed away after he was taken to Mayo Hospital. Witnesses said he had complained of feeling unwell from the smoke from US flags burnt at the rally.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/437772/ultimatum-to-us-criminalise-blasphemy-or-lose-consulate/

Most of the comments below the article are rather encouraging.

this one is good....

What does the Qur'an say about dealing with those who insult the blessed Rasool? Patience with dignity. Nowhere Allah says go and destroy properties and lives of those who insult the Messenger.

Muslims are told to hold fast to their pledges and treaties they sign. They are obligated to provide security to various Embassies. After 911, how many Embassies of Muslim countries were attacked in Europe or US?

This video was produced by a perverted individual who has the remote control in his hand. All he has to do is to press a button and the Muslims start jumping up and down. Don't give your power away!! Use this opportunity to educate others about real Islam. Islam does not allow anybody to punish Paul for the crime of Peter.

This world is a world of test for the Muslim to see if under pressure do they respond their way or Allah's Way?

Quote from: steve58 on September 17, 2012, 10:38:08 AM
Old Glory: 1     Pakistani "rally participant": 0

Quote
One of the participants of the rally, Abdullah Ismail, passed away after he was taken to Mayo Hospital. Witnesses said he had complained of feeling unwell from the smoke from US flags burnt at the rally.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/437772/ultimatum-to-us-criminalise-blasphemy-or-lose-consulate/

Heh. Thanks. Made me smile.

So Chinese manufacturing processes are good for something after all?

Ex-Navy Seals weren't part of ambassador's security detail but rose to occasion, officials now confirm (http://www.washingtonguardian.com/revising-libya-story)

Quote
The two former Navy SEALs killed in last week's attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi were not part of Ambassador Chris Stevens' official security detail but took up arms in an effort to protect the facility when it was overrun by insurgents, U.S. officials tell the Washington Guardian.

Quote
The officials provided the information to the Washington Guardian, saying they feared the Obama administration's scant description of the episode left a misimpression that the two ex-Navy SEALs might have been responsible for the ambassador's personal safety or become separated from him.

"Woods and Doherty weren't part of the detail, nor were they personally responsible for the ambassador's security, but they stepped into the breach when the attacks occurred and their actions saved others lives -- and they shouldn't be lumped in with the security detail," one senior official said, speaking only on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak publicly about the State Department.

God bless those guys. They gave the last full measure.

^Amen to that...

Does anyone know where this whole thing stands.  I'm hearing that a US General is retiring because he wanted to send in a rapid response team in, and was ready to ignore DC when he was relieved.  There's also a report floating about that there were warnings given by people in Libya of al-Qaida groupls gathering around Benghazi. 

Are these just rumors, or is there validity to these reports?  Am I correct in understanding that everthing that happened took place over an 8hr period.

Quote from: OJsDad on November 01, 2012, 07:32:40 PM
Does anyone know where this whole thing stands.  I'm hearing that a US General is retiring because he wanted to send in a rapid response team in, and was ready to ignore DC when he was relieved.  There's also a report floating about that there were warnings given by people in Libya of al-Qaida groupls gathering around Benghazi. 

Are these just rumors, or is there validity to these reports?  Am I correct in understanding that everthing that happened took place over an 8hr period.

No.

There are clear inconsistencies between reports uncovered and statements out of the administration.

However no one has been able to obtain a full disclosure of who-knew-what-when.

The good news? The truth will come out. Just don't expect it before the election next week. Take from that what you will. Both sides will read into it whatever they want.

Quote from: LongBlade on November 01, 2012, 08:06:30 PM

Quote from: OJsDad on November 01, 2012, 07:32:40 PM
Does anyone know where this whole thing stands.  I'm hearing that a US General is retiring because he wanted to send in a rapid response team in, and was ready to ignore DC when he was relieved.  There's also a report floating about that there were warnings given by people in Libya of al-Qaida groupls gathering around Benghazi. 

Are these just rumors, or is there validity to these reports?  Am I correct in understanding that everthing that happened took place over an 8hr period.

No.

There are clear inconsistencies between reports uncovered and statements out of the administration.

However no one has been able to obtain a full disclosure of who-knew-what-when.

The good news? The truth will come out. Just don't expect it before the election next week. Take from that what you will. Both sides will read into it whatever they want.

Wasn't trying to tie it into the election, just trying to see if anyone can shed some light on it.

Quote from: OJsDad on November 01, 2012, 08:22:06 PM
Wasn't trying to tie it into the election, just trying to see if anyone can shed some light on it.

The best I can tell is that news of this was at a very high level almost immediately. A decision was made not to send help. Right, wrong, indifferent - we don't know who made the call or why. It should not be difficult to determine what happened internally, but for some reason, it is.

Quote from: OJsDad on November 01, 2012, 07:32:40 PMI'm hearing that a US General is retiring because he wanted to send in a rapid response team in, and was ready to ignore DC when he was relieved. 

That one's crap - it's people who don't like the President trying to draw conclusions that don't exist.  If they were firing the guy b/c of a disagreement like that, he would be relieved, not having a successor nominated that's at least a year from Senate confirmation.

I think the real reason that Rodriguez was already nominated as Ham's replacement is that he's rotating out of Afghanistan soon and they need somewhere to put him, and no other billets are close to open.  Ham isn't one of the bright shining stars who is going anywhere else, so why not retire him a year early?

Quote from: OJsDad on November 01, 2012, 08:22:06 PM
Wasn't trying to tie it into the election, just trying to see if anyone can shed some light on it.

The latest from this evening.

Clearly *someone* knew there was a problem in Libya. The question is why no one did anything.

QuoteThe U.S. mission in Benghazi, at an "emergency meeting" less than a month before the Sept. 11 attack, drafted a contingency plan to suspend operations as security deteriorated -- and in the near-term, recommended that consulate operations be moved to the CIA annex about a mile away, according to a classified cable reviewed by Fox News.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/02/exclusive-classified-cable-shows-benghazi-consulate-considered-suspending

I am coming in on page 11 so forgive me if I missed something here.
They just had a civil war there.  The place was unstable as a chainsaw
juggler with alzheimers in a burning house of cards.  The country was
full of armed crazy people who had just killed their long term dicatator
like a dog in the street.  Long known for their cosmopolitain world view
and love of USA! USA! these people, congenitally crazy by our standards,
who are taught since birth that Israel the puppetmaster of USA! is behind
every problem, decided to have a riot.  They checked their "Reasons to Have
a Riot List" and came up with "#7632 - Rumour of Blasphemy in movie."
Then they went on a rampage surprising everyone and attacked the local
American presence. ....  I think we have been here before.
Everything else seems like icing on the crap cake.
cheers

Quote from: Longdan on November 03, 2012, 10:04:03 AM
I am coming in on page 11 so forgive me if I missed something here.
They just had a civil war there.  The place was unstable as a chainsaw
juggler with alzheimers in a burning house of cards.  The country was
full of armed crazy people who had just killed their long term dicatator
like a dog in the street.  Long known for their cosmopolitain world view
and love of USA! USA! these people, congenitally crazy by our standards,
who are taught since birth that Israel the puppetmaster of USA! is behind
every problem, decided to have a riot.  They checked their "Reasons to Have
a Riot List" and came up with "#7632 - Rumour of Blasphemy in movie."
Then they went on a rampage surprising everyone and attacked the local
American presence. ....  I think we have been here before.
Everything else seems like icing on the crap cake.
cheers

Actually, the video feeds from the Libyan consulate show definitively that there was no riot. It was a quiet night until the consulate was attacked. The last visitor to the consulate was the Turkish ambassador, who had dinner with our ambassador. The two of them then walked to the gate talking as they went.

Worse, at least one of the Libyan guards in the consulate grounds was actively taking pictures. The staff there speculated that he was casing the place for an attack. They were probably right.

Hey, LongDan. This seems to be a pretty good summary of the facts in an impartial way. Probably worth looking at if your news sources haven't been reliable.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/nov/03/benghazi-questions-fuel-fierce-partisan-debate/?breakingnews

Thanks.  I had not read all that in such a succint presentation.
But my basic point was what US facility in this part of the world
should not be considered in fairly serious danger?
Volatile countries with lots of armed persons who seek violent solutions
to bad hair days.  Emotional maturity is a concept up there with quantum physics.
Although this appears like it could have a more organised origin.
It is not as if the local gendarmes would note and report anything suspicious.

Quote from: Longdan on November 03, 2012, 05:48:40 PM
Thanks.  I had not read all that in such a succint presentation.

You're welcome. This thread actually tracks a number of the issues fairly well. I'd recommend you start on the first page and read through it. It may prove...enlightening.

QuoteBut my basic point was what US facility in this part of the world
should not be considered in fairly serious danger?

This is exactly the point we were discussint here: Ambassador Stevens had been asking in increasing frequency and alarm for *more* protection at the embassy and consulate.

He was consistently denied those requests.

In fact, in August, a spec ops team being used to protect our diplomats was withdrawn from Tripoli. The facts that are emerging are...tragic.

It's a shame most media outlets have ignored this issue. There are many inconsistencies between what the administration said, and the facts being uncovered by journalists. It's weird more outlets aren't covering this as it's a big story.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 01, 2012, 08:49:48 PM

Quote from: OJsDad on November 01, 2012, 07:32:40 PMI'm hearing that a US General is retiring because he wanted to send in a rapid response team in, and was ready to ignore DC when he was relieved. 

That one's crap - it's people who don't like the President trying to draw conclusions that don't exist.  If they were firing the guy b/c of a disagreement like that, he would be relieved, not having a successor nominated that's at least a year from Senate confirmation.

I think the real reason that Rodriguez was already nominated as Ham's replacement is that he's rotating out of Afghanistan soon and they need somewhere to put him, and no other billets are close to open.  Ham isn't one of the bright shining stars who is going anywhere else, so why not retire him a year early?

Of course, if you fired Ham, you would have to answer questions as to why. 

The "move" is pretty coincidental to say the least.

Quote from: bayonetbrant on November 01, 2012, 08:49:48 PMI think the real reason that Rodriguez was already nominated as Ham's replacement is that he's rotating out of Afghanistan soon and they need somewhere to put him, and no other billets are close to open.  Ham isn't one of the bright shining stars who is going anywhere else, so why not retire him a year early?

Quote from: OJsDad on November 01, 2012, 07:32:40 PMI'm hearing that a US General is retiring because he wanted to send in a rapid response team in, and was ready to ignore DC when he was relieved. 

Quote from: Bison on November 03, 2012, 07:33:58 PMThe "move" is pretty coincidental to say the least.

One of these days, y'all will start listening to me... 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/7/head-of-africa-command-not-forced-out/

QuoteThe real story of Gen. Ham's retirement is linked to the career of Gen. David M. Rodriguez, one of the Army's top field commanders. He now heads Army Forces Command, a non-war-fighting job that ensures the readiness of 820,000 soldiers.
Forces command is not among the most prized assignments for a war fighter. The most coveted posts sought by the four military branches, outside the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are the geographic combatant commands.
The four-star commanders fight the nation's wars. None is more prominent than the chief of the U.S. Central Command, which led the war in Iraq and is overseeing Afghanistan. That war has its own four-star, Marine CorpsGen. John R. Allen, in a post that has all the prestige of a combatant commander.
The story begins when the Obama administration decided to cut Gen. Allen's tour short and move him to Brussels next spring as the top NATO commander and the chief of U.S. European Command.
Internally, the Army top brass lobbied to replace Gen. Allen with Gen. Rodriguez. He held a senior command in Afghanistan last year and has the in-country know-how to carry out President Obama's decision to methodically withdraw U.S. forces by the end of 2014. The Pentagon has pulled out 33,000 "surge" forces this year, leaving about 68,000 troops.
To the Army's chagrin, the defense secretary and the White House opted for another Marine, Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., whom Mr. Obama installed as the assistant Marine Corps commandant in 2010.
"The Army wanted that command," the military source said. "They are putting someone in that command who has no Afghanistan experience versus Rodriguez who has considerable."
Gen. Dunford had extensive combat experience in Iraq.
In a sort of compromise, Mr. Panetta found a prestigious combatant command for Gen. Rodriguez. The one that was opening up next year was Africa Command, which has grown in importance with the emergence of al-Qaeda-like Islamic terrorist groups in North Africa.
"Joint commands have a much higher status than an in-service four-star command," the military source said. "He's a combatant commander in an operational command with the potential to go to war. Those are the most desirable positions. They are the most sought-after."
The defense secretary announced the change in mid-October amid the Washington brouhaha over Benghazi, triggering the Internet guessing about Gen. Ham. The Pentagon said Gen. Ham's retirement had nothing to do with Benghazi.
Combatant commanders typically serve two-year terms, sometimes three years, then retire or transfer. Gen. Ham's 24-months comes due in March, so he may leave a month or two early after Gen. Rodriguez is confirmed by the Senate.