This isn't a good idea - Turkey is a member of NATO.
QuoteTurkey has contacted the UN and Nato after Syrian shells killed five people in a Turkish town near the border between the two countries.
The shells exploded after being fired into Akcakale from Tall al-Abyad in Syria, where forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad are trying to put down an 18-month-old insurgency.
The dead are said to include a woman and her three children.
Later, reports said Turkey had struck back at Syrian targets.
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19822253
Perhaps a bloody punch from the Turks would teach Syrian artillery to be a bit more accurate. Looks like there is (at the narrowest point) a 200 meter strip of nothing between Syrian and Turkish residences at Akcakale. Surely Syrian Army bombardiers could be accurate within 200 meters.
Are they really spoiling for a fight with outside powers that bad?
Wow, first I'm hearing of this today. This is kind of serious and I'll be interested in seeing if any clashes escalate between these two countries.
Quote from: TheCommandTent on October 03, 2012, 03:06:10 PM
Are they really spoiling for a fight with outside powers that bad?
The report I heard on TV indicated nobody (yet) knows whether this was some goofball going rogue or whether it was some kind of more formal attack.
My guess is that the last thing Syrian government wants is a war with NATO. Which means is was probably some group trying to bait the Turks into expanding their role. Sad that innocents had to be brought into it.
^I agree...it was probably a rebel group trying to get the Turks to help them out inadverdently. I am curious what the Turkish response was.
They retaliated against the mortar emplacement that fired in the first place.
How? Firing their own mortars/artillery?
The Turks have enough tanks to flatten Syria. A coupla incidents like that and Turkey may go in an establish a permanent buffer zone. They appear to be pretty handy with arty too! If anything was to happen I'm sure Turkey would have it handled before NATO could get mobilized to help them.
Back in the Cold War the Turks were really top notch. Could be kind of scary because they acted so linear. Most issues were seen as black and white, with little gray areas.
Now that the new government is in control, and apparently taking the military leadership down a peg, anyone know if they are still as potent?
Attaturk made sure the military was secular and wanted it to be apolitical, but to safeguard his revolution.
The present government is not secular and seems to want to roll back much of Attaturks changes.
Turkey has enough problems with the Kurds. Doubt they would want anything to do with the Syrian quagmire.
However if there was a shooting war between Syria and Turkey, I'd bet the Assad regime would lose.
Recall the Turkish invasion of Cyprus back in 1974. Naval engagements, air combat, large scale paratrooper drops, helicopter airmobile strikes, even a sea invasion with tanks and infantry.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_296.shtml
I knew a guy who was a part of a UN detachment in Cyprus in the 70s. He said that the Turkish Army scared the shit out of him.
Turkey shoves back, for the 2nd day.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/04/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Quote
Istanbul (CNN) -- Turkey shelled a Syrian military position for a second day and authorized its military forces to venture beyond its borders on Thursday.
Quote from: LongBlade on October 03, 2012, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: TheCommandTent on October 03, 2012, 03:06:10 PM
Are they really spoiling for a fight with outside powers that bad?
The report I heard on TV indicated nobody (yet) knows whether this was some goofball going rogue or whether it was some kind of more formal attack.
My guess is that the last thing Syrian government wants is a war with NATO. Which means is was probably some group trying to bait the Turks into expanding their role. Sad that innocents had to be brought into it.
Spot on.
To eyebiter's point I would bet that this recent mess is related to the Kurds trying to take advantage of the situation.
Syria apologized and confirmed that it was a mistake by it's army. what is the reasoning behind this? Assad shooting down a turkish warplane, killing two pilots and now this? does he want to have even more trouble?
Turkey has risen to be a regional power the last ten years. they would be able to crush Assad fast. But they don't want to see Syria breaking into a complete mess at their doors. that's what newspapers report here.
Quote from: Keunert on October 05, 2012, 08:10:14 AM
Syria apologized and confirmed that it was a mistake by it's army. what is the reasoning behind this? Assad shooting down a turkish warplane, killing two pilots and now this? does he want to have even more trouble?
Turkey has risen to be a regional power the last ten years. they would be able to crush Assad fast. But they don't want to see Syria breaking into a complete mess at their doors. that's what newspapers report here.
If Assad is behind it, it's probably in the hope of drawing in the Turks against the Kurds.
Remember: the US had some serious contact with the Kurds in the north of Iraq. Who knows what lessons might have been learned?
Quote from: Keunert on October 05, 2012, 08:10:14 AM
Syria apologized and confirmed that it was a mistake by it's army. what is the reasoning behind this? Assad shooting down a turkish warplane, killing two pilots and now this? does he want to have even more trouble?
Turkey has risen to be a regional power the last ten years. they would be able to crush Assad fast. But they don't want to see Syria breaking into a complete mess at their doors. that's what newspapers report here.
My (vain) hope here, is that this is the first step of a new Ottoman Empire. Pax Turkiana. The Turks roll 100 km into Syria to set-up a buffer. Then they have to roll into all Syria proper to bring order (possibly even Lebanon). This upsets Iran who agitate the Turkish Kurds and Syrian & Turkish Shi'ites. Green lit by President Romney, the Turkish Army rolls into Iraqi Kurd territory, and eventually invades Iranian Kurdish territory with the full backing of the US and Israel (secretly). If the Iranians use WMDs, then all bets are off and no-holds are barred. NATO joins the fray in an all-out war against the Islamic Republic of Iran.
When the dust settles, Pax Turkiana is established.
Interesting scenario development - throw a Turkish air strike (backed by intelligence from the US) to decaptitate the Syrian leadership.
Quote from: Centurion40 on October 05, 2012, 08:40:25 AM
Quote from: Keunert on October 05, 2012, 08:10:14 AM
Syria apologized and confirmed that it was a mistake by it's army. what is the reasoning behind this? Assad shooting down a turkish warplane, killing two pilots and now this? does he want to have even more trouble?
Turkey has risen to be a regional power the last ten years. they would be able to crush Assad fast. But they don't want to see Syria breaking into a complete mess at their doors. that's what newspapers report here.
My (vain) hope here, is that this is the first step of a new Ottoman Empire. Pax Turkiana. The Turks roll 100 km into Syria to set-up a buffer. Then they have to roll into all Syria proper to bring order (possibly even Lebanon). This upsets Iran who agitate the Turkish Kurds and Syrian & Turkish Shi'ites. Green lit by President Romney, the Turkish Army rolls into Iraqi Kurd territory, and eventually invades Iranian Kurdish territory with the full backing of the US and Israel (secretly). If the Iranians use WMDs, then all bets are off and no-holds are barred. NATO joins the fray in an all-out war against the Islamic Republic of Iran.
When the dust settles, Pax Turkiana is established.
I like your idea, but one thought keeps haunting me:
After the Ruskies left Afghanistan, the US chose to let a Pax Pakistania fill in the void with help from Saudi Arabia.
It all sounds good on paper, but just sayin'...
Ain't nuthin' perfect.
Quote from: MIGMaster on October 05, 2012, 08:49:10 AM
Interesting scenario development - throw a Turkish air strike (backed by intelligence from the US) to decaptitate the Syrian leadership.
Maybe even the Iranian leadership, a few months later.
Quote from: Centurion40 on October 05, 2012, 08:40:25 AM
Quote from: Keunert on October 05, 2012, 08:10:14 AM
Syria apologized and confirmed that it was a mistake by it's army. what is the reasoning behind this? Assad shooting down a turkish warplane, killing two pilots and now this? does he want to have even more trouble?
Turkey has risen to be a regional power the last ten years. they would be able to crush Assad fast. But they don't want to see Syria breaking into a complete mess at their doors. that's what newspapers report here.
My (vain) hope here, is that this is the first step of a new Ottoman Empire. Pax Turkiana. The Turks roll 100 km into Syria to set-up a buffer. Then they have to roll into all Syria proper to bring order (possibly even Lebanon). This upsets Iran who agitate the Turkish Kurds and Syrian & Turkish Shi'ites. Green lit by President Romney, the Turkish Army rolls into Iraqi Kurd territory, and eventually invades Iranian Kurdish territory with the full backing of the US and Israel (secretly). If the Iranians use WMDs, then all bets are off and no-holds are barred. NATO joins the fray in an all-out war against the Islamic Republic of Iran.
When the dust settles, Pan Turanism is established.
Fixed that for you 40. Trust me, you don't want Turkey becoming another Ottoman Empire.
Pan Turanism, eh?
Thanks W8, I learned something new today!
The Kurds deserve and need their own nation. It would create without question another free, democratic nation in the middleeast.
Quote from: Bison on October 05, 2012, 02:05:13 PM
The Kurds deserve and need their own nation. It would create without question another free, democratic nation in the middleeast.
I agree.
A Ruskie heavy weapons shipment to Syria was intercepted by Turkey today.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/10/turkey-reportedly-intercepts-syrian-plane/
QuoteWhen the dust settles, Pax Turkiana is established.
Im pretty sure its called the Ottoman Empire.
though how they established an empire based on casual seating still escapes me.
the idea of being conquered by rooms to go micro fiber is simply horrid!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsRuurcTTSk
even better because its Tiny Toons!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulsloBRDFzA&feature=related
A bit of a tweak in the tension.
QuoteTurkey's foreign minister says the country has barred its air space to Syrian civilian flights.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/10/14/turkey-blocks-syrian-civilian-flights/
Three Syrian tanks have rolled into the Golan DMZ.
QuoteThree Syrian tanks entered the demilitarized zone in the Golan Heights on Saturday, Israel said, raising concerns violence from Syria's civil war could heat up a long-quiet frontier that has not seen such an incursion in nearly 40 years.
Source: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-11-03/activists-rebels-fight-syrian-troops-over-airbase
It might be an attempt to cause an Israeli response which would distract from the internal situation: "Hey, look! Israel is starting shit in the Golan! Time to band together guys!"
^ That was my first thought as well, but then I wondered if it isn't too obvious. I doubt their civilians are that gullible (some, yes, but surely not all).
Well, it's not like the Regime and it's Hezbollah allies have much to lose at this point. By now they should be ready to try just about anything including blackmailing Turkey and Jordan with threats of 'Accidental' CBW attacks.
Good point.
Get a load of this delusion:
http://rt.com/news/assad-interview-exclusive-syria-265/
QuoteI was not the target; I was not the problem anyway. The West creates enemies; in the past it was the communism then it became Islam, and then it became Saddam Hussein for a different reason. Now, they want to create a new enemy represented by Bashar. That's why they say that the problem is the president so he has to leave. That is why we have to focus of the real problem, not to waste our time listening to what they say.
Quote
Let's be precise once again. The problem is not between me and the people; I do not have a problem with the people because the United States is against me and the West is against me and many other Arab countries, including Turkey which is not Arab of course, are against me. If the Syrian people are against me, how can I be here?!
If the whole world, or let us say a big part of the world, including your people, are against you, are you a superman?! You are just a human being. So, this is not logical. It is not about reconciling with the people and it is not about reconciliation between the Syrians and the Syrians; we do not have a civil war. It is about terrorism and the support coming from abroad to terrorists to destabilize Syria. This is our war.
Quote... when they are going to stop smuggling foreign fighters from different parts of the world especially the Middle East and the Islamic world, and when they are going to stop sending armaments to those terrorists. If they stop, this is when I can answer you; I can tell that in weeks we can finish everything. This is not a big problem. But as long as you have continuous supply in terrorists, armaments, logistics and everything else, it is going to be a long-term war. Turkey supports more than any other country the smuggling of terrorists and armaments.
QuoteErdogan thinks that if Muslim Brotherhood takes over in the region and especially in Syria, he can guarantee his political future, this is one reason. The other reason, he personally thinks that he is the new sultan of the Ottoman and he can control the region as it was during the Ottoman Empire under a new umbrella. In his heart he thinks he is a caliph. These are the main two reasons for him to shift his policy from zero problems to zero friends.
Quote... we had good relations with Iran since 1979 till today, and it is getting better every day, but at the same time we are moving towards peace. We had peace process and we had peace negotiations. Iran was not a factor against peace. So, this is misinformation they try to promote in the West that if we need peace, we do not have to have good relation with Iran. There is no relation; it is two completely different subjects. Iran supported Syria, supported our cause, the cause of the occupied land and we have to support them in their cause. This is very simple. Iran is a very important country in the region. If we are looking for stability, we need good relations with Iran. You cannot talk about stability while you have bad relations with Iran, Turkey and your neighbors and so on. This is it.
The only thing that I do not consider delusional is the 4th quote down from the top. Erdogan does indeed style himself the leader of a revived Ottoman Empire.