I mean do they get our hobby or interest in military history?
In 20 years, I've known 3 woman flight simmers and 1 naval analyst who liked Harpoon, Sub Command, and Dangerous Waters.
Now, I grew up through the civil rights and feminist movements. Women now serve in the USA military in all roles but combat. And it could be argued from the KIA and WIA figures, they are serving in combat.
BTW, I mean this as a serious thread and not a chance for the ugly sexism that sometimes shows up in game forums. I am as serious about this as why we still don't see a greater balance of women in engineering disciplines.
Is the lack of women war gamers: nuture, genetics, hormones, male/female culture?
BTW, what started me thinking on this ...
Quote from: MarkShot on October 18, 2012, 07:35:36 PM
I think when my wife goes to sleep, I am going to slip over to the laptop and get back on patrol!
It seems the light from the display does not bother her, but my typing does. She said to me, "How can you possibly be typing so much in a game that is mouse driven?". She doesn't understand as captain I must keep a log. :)
Daughter #1 gets it.
My daughter and not my son was the one who watched Band of Brothers with me. Now that being said.....my son is a major console gamer and is hosting his first Halo Night in his new apartment soon. Strange how the genes work it out.
LB,
So, you would say "nuture"?
Because as much as I support full social equality, the science shows there are true differences between male and female brains. These differences account for better spatial awareness in males and better language and communication skills in females.
My wife will watch war movies with me as a concession to my interests, but she thinks movies with no females roles tend to be boring.
I used to think that she had no interest in military history. But recently she has been fascinated by documentaries on China, Korea, and Japan produced in the PRC. So, the reality is she is not much interested in what we call Western History ... She has hardly any of the basics of the underlying material. But she has decent grasp of 5,000 years of Chinese History. However, war game or geopolitical strategy games are of zero interest.
Quote from: MarkShot on October 18, 2012, 08:10:08 PM
LB,
So, you would say "nuture"?
Because as much as I support full social equality, the science shows there are true differences between male and female brains. These differences account for better spatial awareness in males and better language and communication skills in females.
Best I can give you is "osmosis."
I've never pushed anything on them - other than long lectures of brain dump about whatever question they happened to have asked where I had an answer.
I used to volunteer at the WWII Museum, and I have books and books (and games and games) on WWII. Somewhere about 6th grade the light went off when they were studying history in school. She connected the dots between my interest in history (particularly WWII) and the importance of the event in history and its effect on today.
I had one Japanese girlfriend who played video games but she liked Japanese console games and couldn't understand my interest in history, sims, and wargames. She'd get mad if I watched a WWII documentary and her usual refrain was "why do you keep watching this stuff over and over? You already know who won."
I had a Thai girlfriend who loved war movies and read military history but she absolutely hated video games. Fortunately, she wasn't the type who insisted I had to curtail my hobbies to accommodate her. She'd just go work out while I played games.
As for the rest, typical bitching and moaning about my hobby. I never really understood why most weren't too bothered if I read a book or watched a war movie. Most would get slightly annoyed if I watched war documentaries. Most would get really annoyed if I played PC or boardgames.
My ex-wife didn't get it at all. She wasn't the intellectual type. My girlfriend now says she likes history and maps and loves to read. I've yet to see her pick up a book or even a magazine. She does, however, play games. Console and phone. She gives me space to play mine and doesn't give me crap when I do. I'm encouraging her to try Civ with me. I'm hoping to be able to show her how and let my enthusiasm shine through without being overbearing.
Now that I think about it, she has a fighter plane game for her PS3 that she's beaten. So I stand corrected. Maybe that will gateway into other things :-)
Are our wargames just the playing at war we did as boys morphed into an adult form?
I don't recall being pushed to play at war as a boy or my sister being pushed not to. I don't think parents or family socialized us; it just seemed natural. Perhaps, TV socialized us. As a kid WWII movies were on all the time. All the role models were, of course, male soldiers.
As a kid you are quickly grouped, perhaps the very earliest grouping being boy/girl, after that I think the whole larger environment had me and my sister type cast. If I had wanted to bake or she had wanted to play football both of us would have had to be child activists.
But how is it for boys and girls today? BTW, I am not a parent.
I read recently that women are now the majority of gamers. But still games are predominantly designed and developed by men. This is part of the engineering gap I alluded to earlier.
The Wife is the 2nd smartest person I have ever met but is not interested in my hobbies in the least and that has been a bone of contention forever. MiniGus #1 definitely gets it and I think we will be gaming once she is old enough. The jury is still out on MiniGus #2.
My wife was a tomboy.
She flew helos in Calif and Hawaii. She flew hot air balloons in North America and Benelux. She attained a commercial balloon license and gave instructions. She was Roger Rabbit at Disneyland in a small helium blimp as co pilot. She drove big rigs cross country with a partner. She got to know a lot of gas balloonists but never got to fly one. She was president of the Southern California Hot Air Balloon Assoc. She invited and hosted guest speakers such as Dick Rutan, Joe Kittinger, Ed Yost.
She loves politics and history. We have watched about every documentary and miniseries about the ACW, WWII and Vietnam. More often than not, I find her watching youtubes of Pearl Harbor or Atomic bomb tests or whatever. She can tell you a lot about NASCAR too.
Gotta know how to pick em in the beginning.
Gus,
He he he ... That's a sad comment on the value of your hobbies. At least she found you charming enough to tolerate your reduced intellect.
My wife thinks I am smart, but that I waste it on games. She was very happy when I started trading, and still thinks I should pick it up again.
J2D,
Finding such a woman must have been hard to begin with! So, does her hobbies extend to games?
The Wife does like chess, I left that out. She's good at it too.
My wife appreciates history but isn't rabid about learning about it like I am. She puts up with my hobby and is never really negative about it, she just is not interested in participating. However, she does enjoy boardgaming (note this does not cover wargames) stuff like Settlers of Catan, Carcasssone etc. so one day I hope to get her accidentally to enjoy a beer and pretzels wargame. :)
I forgot to mention that we raised two good kids with her being a stay at home mom for the most part.
We played pong together, then Space Invaders until the sun came up. When 007 came out with whichever Nintendo, she kicked ass and I learned that women have better hand eye coordination. She played every version of Zelda to the end. On the Apple we had Wings of Fury, a WWII Pacific game where you took off from a carrier and shot/bombed Japanese troops, then returned to the carrier before the fuel ran out. Currently she plays all the Facebook games. She is happy that I have my games and have done some alpha/beta work.
So, are war gamers more likely to have amenable or tolerant wives? Since clearly this hobby is mainly male. So, like J2D implies his choice of spouse was no accident.
I was married before I ever played a war game or PCs existed. So, I am just lucky my wife encourages the things I like.
War games and computer tech just puts her to sleep. Although she likes having the latest tech in her hands ... Just not having to be involved making it work. You would never guess she got an MS Degree in Computer Science. But unlike myself who loves tech, she just did that to get a job. Her undergraduate degree in Chinese literature was worthless in the USA 30 years ago.
Too many times I see guys posts about the other half being nice to look at and likes to <****> like a rabbit but has no interest in every other thing in my life. You have to find a best friend first, because the other stuff will change over time.
Our daughter is not so much into history but is all over football, baseball, and somewhat hockey and basketball.
^Sounds like a pretty sweet family you've got :-)
Thanks, we have been blessed.
My wife sees it as "playing". And whilst it essentially is, I like to think of it as keeping my mind going - regardless of game genre. In my mind, it beats hands down the fictional books she reads or the TV dramas...but she doesn't see it like that - I'm just playing.
My daughters like computer games. Cathryn (11) is quite into WoW though not to a nerdy level and Megan likes FPS games. She's probably finished more than I have. But both of them look at my strategy games and don't get it. It's not all graphics - so why would I want to play it?
I just shut the doors :)
if i watch my two girls play it is obvious that they play different to boys. a lot more communication, a lot more role playing and cooperation.
it would surprise me if that would change with age. so even if they game on consoles it would surprise me to see lot's of women playing the same
games as their boyfriends.
Wife Mk I loved Civ 2, when Civ 2 was contemporary and played it to death
Wife Mk II loved all the Tomb Raiders and Professor Layton games on the DS
Undercover Junior at 5 likes her DS, and loves watching me move around the CMBN map, i will turn her eventually
Neither understood CMBO or WitP
I recall a major piece done in PCZone UK once and they spoke to a load of lady gamers and their one major conclusion was that ladies love a story, some RPG, some puzzling and some interaction, where men prefer strategy and xplodey things.
In my experience i think they have a problem with WW2 strategy specifically because its been and gone, done and concluded and we know the victor and loser - why try and recreate that?
Think whenever you talk about the whole gender differences, you can only talk generalities. There are just too many people with too many interests.
I feel that guys are more interested in war and fighting to begin with, because we have more competitiveness built into our genes. You needed hunter-gatherers/defenders of the hearth on a daily basis. Quiet, thoughtful guys were also needed so there is a mix.
Women don't so much need the competition. If they get involved, from my experience, it is much more personal. What I mean is they don't want to play the game, or beat the game system. If they get involved, they want to beat that SOB trying to blow her friends and family away.
For those who grew up in the 1950s, and most of the 60s, you wouldn't believe the amount of television on World War II. There were nights that were wall to wall military shows. Navy Log, Air Power, Combat, the Gallant Men, Citizen Soldier, the Silent Service, 12 O'Clock High, the list goes on. And the same for the movies, tons of war flicks.
This helped create an interest in World War II games that made Avalon Hill games a market to sell to.
NO girls, though. They were only depicted as nurses, heroic resistance fighters, and victims.
I think there always has been some interested women gamers, but it had to be something that interested them on a personal level.
This takes time to develop and to nurture. By the time we find the ladies, their thought processes are already set, and it is almost impossib le to change their programming.
That was my childhood TV experience ... old b/w WWII, "duck and cover", and the Mercury 7 are America's national heroes.
I hadn't seen a war game yet or a PC, but I had been totally programmed. At some point in the mid-90s, it would all click and my wife would have to drag me away from 80386 and my Lucasfilm's Spitfire so that we could go down to the corner and catch the subway to Wall Street together.
I was the "Manchurian Candidate" and didn't even know it. All you had to do was flash a photo of a 109 and gravis joystick in front of me, and you could wind me up do anything! Even now, just the mention of BOB 1940 and my left eye is beginning to twitch. ... No! No! No! The guys in the white jackets are coming ... run RUN!
OMG! Now, it's all clear my wife isn't disinterested or tolerant, she is my controller. She told me that agents of the PRC had approached her in Macau after her return from school in Taiwan. That explains why there are photos of the Dalai Lama and Richard Gere on the wall with a schedule of their public appearances.
OMG! I probably know more about guns than Jarhead, and only think I have an aversion to gun violence.
WAR GAMING GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!! LEAVE ME BE!!!
My wife is very interested in history and will go to war museums and battlefields. But they are not her preference. But I go to art museums with her which is not my preference.
She is not interested in computer games - I'm not interested in TV (outside of College sports) and she watches murder shows all the time. She does not hunt or shoot - but will sometimes pull clays for me if we go out to a nice lunch later on.
We have common interests (live sports, concerts, museums, etc......) and things only one of us is interested in. She does not mind the computer games as long as they don't take all of my time.
Marriage is a balance. If you expect your spouse to enjoy (or even refrain from commenting on) all of your interests it probably won't last in the long run.
She DOES NOT ask me to work on craft projects and I don't ask her to hunt.
^Good point. The Wife has yet to ask me to knit and we've been together for fifteen years (married ten)... think I am out of the woods there.
I'm blessed with a lovely wife that not only makes great wings but tolerates my gaming hobby. I don't think she understands it or could ever sit still long enough to play one but she is happy when I'm happy and vice versa. She thinks Skyrim is funny and is a little jealous of Lydia being my follower. Not having everything in common means you have to work some to make the relationship work and we both can appreciate that.
Quote from: MarkShot on October 18, 2012, 08:10:08 PM
... the science shows there are true differences between male and female brains. These differences account for better spatial awareness in males and better language and communication skills in females.
Sorry to go OT, but if you accept this, Markshot, then do you also accept that some people can be naturally better at some things than others, as I suggested in the thread where we talked about aptitude for, and teaching, combat flightsims?
Anyway, my wife conforms to those generalizations. She likes computer games, and we sometimes play together (indeed, the whole family has played through Ocarina of Time), but she doesn't like FPSs as she finds it difficult to get her bearings. She also has no interest in wargames per se. She'll watch war films and docs, but tends to think about them in terms of the suffering on show, rather than being interested in the action.
Quote from: MarkShot on October 18, 2012, 07:55:28 PM
I mean do they get our hobby or interest in military history?
Let's see: Wife #1 really disapproved of games
Wife #2 disproved even more than Wife #1
Wife #3 has ex-boyfriends and girlfriends who were fighter pilots or commandos or something. She claims she once saw one of them on TV and said, "So I knew something was wrong." She might have been confused about who she saw since she has relatives running things in the Pentagon and other exboyfriends who play the heavies on low-production-value TV adventure stories.
But she's not very interested in games other than words for friends, though she is backing my attempt at a history and gaming blog (which has bogged down in describing analog fire control systems -- which she is interested in it seems).
The kid: the kid loves all games except Angry Birds and Bad Piggies. More interested in cars and guns than anything military...though planes fascinate her. She tried RoF and it turns out to be a hard game for a two-year-old.
Well, my missus is used to me being a wargamer from when we first met, so thats 40 years. She enjoys the odd board game or two, and we played Magic the Gathering for a long time.
She has a general interest in Military History, and will watch war films, and really enjoyed Band of Brothers. For some reason, she got interested in the Vietnam War, and has read most of the books on the subject that I have in my modest library.
Mrs Bob has been a computer game nut ever since out first C64 back in the late 1970's, and now spends too much a lot of time on WoW where she runs a 90+ strong Guild.
On top of that, she's quite good at aircraft recognition, and can tell you when a Chinook is anywhere near even before its visible, and has a model of one and a AH64 standing by her PC.
So, all-in-all, she a pretty cool lady.
Your wife makes good chicken wings?
She is an excellent cook, I do assure you - pop over and she'll feed ya.
Father Ted,
Of course, I accept individual variations. Genes and developmental biology do account for statistical differences in the morphology and processes of our brains. But still there are wide variations and many gene sequences exist in all of us which may or may not get expressed depending on a multitude factors.
So, these comments about sex differences should be regarded as a statistical phenomena and has very little bearing on any single individual.
My wife has always been very tolerant of my gaming activities, although I'm quite sure that when I went from board wargames stretched over a table all weekend to computer games, she was much happier 8)
Bob I'm outside right now. Let me in!!
My lady is quite an avid gamer, sometimes to my detriment since we only have one PC (well, only one capable of proper gaming anyway). In line with what's been said, she mainly likes RPGs and puzzle games. She isn't impressed with anything military at all though, so while she doesn't get in the way of strategy gaming, she has no interest either.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on October 20, 2012, 03:53:33 AM
My lady is quite an avid gamer, sometimes to my detriment since we only have one PC (well, only one capable of proper gaming anyway). In line with what's been said, she mainly likes RPGs and puzzle games. She isn't impressed with anything military at all though, so while she doesn't get in the way of strategy gaming, she has no interest either.
i thought she would have moved out by now, what with you sat in your pants taking pictures of ladies in various states of armoured undress
^and even worse, not sharing the best pics with us, his mates!
You Brits have to get hip to the fact that in most of the rest of the World 'Pants' and 'Trousers' are the same thing. Your underwear jokes need an upgrade to interface properly with Accepted International Standard. ;)
Knickers! ::)
Plus Fours?
^Only in the hunting season.
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 20, 2012, 05:57:27 AM
i thought she would have moved out by now, what with you sat in your pants taking pictures of ladies in various states of armoured undress
Hey, most of the time they're fully clothed. I only occasionally attend naked dance parties in GW2. :)
Quote from: Staggerwing on October 20, 2012, 07:03:21 AM
You Brits have to get hip to the fact that in most of the rest of the World 'Pants' and 'Trousers' are the same thing. Your underwear jokes need an upgrade to interface properly with Accepted International Standard. ;)
so what name do you have for pants ie underpants?
'Shorts', 'Underwear', Drawers', 'Boxers', 'Briefs', 'Tighty-whiteys', 'Skivvies', 'Jockey Shorts', etc. 'Underpants' works well also. There's lots more depending on how 'functional' one wants the mental imagery to be. :D
Boy, when we derail a thread, there's no messin' aboot is there.
Well, I'm not proud of it, but I do leave the occasional leopard spot.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on October 20, 2012, 03:05:50 PM
Well, I'm not proud of it, but I do leave the occasional leopard spot.
That comes with age no doubt.
So you can't really describe something that is piss-poor as "pants" in America? Seems a shame...
Quote from: Father Ted on October 20, 2012, 03:57:42 PM
So you can't really describe something that is piss-poor as "pants" in America? Seems a shame...
i feel theyre definitely missing out!!!
and forgive me, did we just dip into underwear stainage there?
^Geek - don't go there, for gawds sake.
lmao, im almost sure it happened but im staying clear
Did anyone else know Henry Cecil was Batman?
Quote from: Father Ted on October 20, 2012, 03:57:42 PM
So you can't really describe something that is piss-poor as "pants" in America? Seems a shame...
We certainly don't lack for negative descriptors even if 'Pants' isn't among them. However, one of my favorite Brit-isms is saying something has gone 'Pear-shaped'. No idea where it came from but it does a good job in connoting that things have gone somewhat awry. :D
Going 'tits-up' is another one, although that may well be of a more universal nature.
I'm not sure what the origin of some of our daft sayings are; 'Sick as a parrot' is one that has always baffled me ???
Wait...leopard spots? wtf
Quote from: bob48 on October 20, 2012, 04:49:05 PM
I'm not sure what the origin of some of our daft sayings are; 'Sick as a parrot' is one that has always baffled me ???
Does it pre date Monty Python?
Quote from: Gusington on October 20, 2012, 06:03:08 PM
Wait...leopard spots? wtf
you had to ask didnt you? you wouldnt let it lie
A really odd Britishism, was calling something different, "a bit of old cheese."
Took it to mean it fails the smell test?
Quote from: besilarius on October 20, 2012, 07:53:02 PM
A really odd Britishism, was calling something different, "a bit of old cheese."
Took it to mean it fails the smell test?
I'm afraid to say I've never heard this expression. "Hard cheese" is a slightly archaic way of saying "unlucky", but "old cheese", I dunno.
@Staggerwing: my understanding of "going pear-shaped" is that it describes the "ideal" female body-shape going to seed. And thus, by extension, things going wrong. In a similar way you might say that things are "heading south" This is a description of one's body succumbing to the effects of gravity - getting saggy - and can also mean "things are going wrong
Quote from: undercovergeek on October 20, 2012, 06:29:15 PM
Quote from: Gusington on October 20, 2012, 06:03:08 PM
Wait...leopard spots? wtf
you had to ask didnt you? you wouldnt let it lie
What? Stagger started talking about undies and then Bob said something about us and no messes. I was merely ensuring that we at Grogheads could not be accused of misconstruing facts when our records are read by future generations (or during my sentencing.)
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on October 20, 2012, 10:14:23 PM
(or during my sentencing.)
You best make some room there on the Group W Bench, SDR. I reckon there'll be a whole lotta other Grogs a'sittin' right next to ye when Hizzoner bangs his gavel and pronounces his dooms on us.
Quote from: MetalDog on October 20, 2012, 06:16:36 PM
Quote from: bob48 on October 20, 2012, 04:49:05 PM
I'm not sure what the origin of some of our daft sayings are; 'Sick as a parrot' is one that has always baffled me ???
Does it pre date Monty Python?
Oh aye, well pre-python.
Unholy. SDR you must clarify.
I had been worried that this thread would evolve into sexist rants, but who could have ever imagine it would have devolved in this fashion?
You guys remind me of my 8th. Grade lunch room table! This is exactly why no girls would ever sit with us! Correspondingly, I guess we won't need to worry about any female gamers joining these forums. No, need for a female head on this boat!
MarkShot, you should be glad it took this long to de-rail. Most times, we can get the train off the track in one post or fewer ;-)
Quote from: Gusington on October 21, 2012, 08:48:03 AM
Unholy. SDR you must clarify.
The leopard spot, Gus? Well, have you ever seen a girl slather on the lipstick and kiss a napkin or something and leave a near perfect impression of her lips on it?
Think of something similar to that but in an earth tone and on fabric.
So, just to get back on track here;
Does this indicate that the ladies in our lives don't have time to plays games because they are too busy removing stains from our undergarments?
Q: Are Grog Boxers stain resistant?
Nah. Camo pattern is just really good at hiding....er.....all sorts of stuff.
That's why gamers prefer their significant others to be pictured in chain mail bikinis.
Quote from: besilarius on October 21, 2012, 11:30:59 AM
That's why gamers prefer their significant others to be pictured in chain mail bikinis.
Easier to launder?