OK. So I'm browsing some different sites GMT, MMP to check out some hex and counter games from different eras and scales. No problem. Now I freely admit I'm not the most informed board game shopper. I only own a few, but I'm becoming more interested as a way to get away from looking at computer screens all day and night and still enjoy my gaming hobby. Anyway I pop over to the MMP site to browse the civil war games and start to look at the Civil War Brigade Series. Looks interesting, I like the brigade scale and the variety of battles. However now for the annoying part of looking at games on sites.
They never list the games of the series in order. They never list all the games. I can get past the order part if they make mention of it in the description, but why make it hard on perspective customers to figure out where the hell the series starts? Then I realize they aren't even listing all the games in the series. WTF? I wouldn't have known this until I pop over to NWS to check out prices and I look at one game that has 4 smaller scenarios and 2 larger ones. Great! Wrong! 2 of the 6 scenarios are not playable with the map boards that come with the game. It's the 8th or 9th in the series, but you need the maps from the 2nd game in the series to play the scenarios. Again. WTF? Worse it's not listed at MMP as out of stock or out of print in fact its not listed at all. It was in the fine print of the NWS site thankfully. I'd have been pissed if I ordered the game only to find out 1/3 of the scenarios are not playable. Seriously this is poor marketing.
It's not limited to MMP. I've noticed it at other sites too. Why would they market this way? Its really a turn off.
I don't know that they've even thought about it being a problem, but I could totally see how frustrating it would be. FWIW, PanzerGrenadier is just as frustrating.
Never even hear of PanzerGrenadier before today. It does look like a lot of material.
I find MMP's site one of the most difficult to navigate and find what I'm looking for. I agree though that most of the publisher site's are often not user friendly. I always cross-check with Board Game Geek and NWS before making a purchase. BGG has some of the best info about potential purchases.
Quote from: mirth on October 25, 2012, 07:17:21 AM
I find MMP's site one of the most difficult to navigate and find what I'm looking for. I agree though that most of the publisher site's are often not user friendly. I always cross-check with Board Game Geek and NWS before making a purchase. BGG has some of the best info about potential purchases.
Yeah, the series thing is pretty messy. I've gotten out of a lot of series and I think never quite knowing what was part of what was one of the reasons. I've quit playing Avalanch games at all since they all are mixed up in some series or other. I quit most of MMP's lines and Critical Hit stuff. BUT there are some series that I like (since they are mostly all self-contained so far): Flying colors, Battle from the Age of Reason and Grand Tactical. I'm trying to like Great Battles (at least for Cataphracts and such), but it looks like Men of Iron is a better system covering the same kinds of things (armored cavalry, archers and such). I like the approach that each game is self-contained mostly, but uses the same system. GMT and Clash of Arms seem to stick to that for the most part.
Quote from: mirth on October 25, 2012, 07:17:21 AM
I find MMP's site one of the most difficult to navigate and find what I'm looking for. I agree though that most of the publisher site's are often not user friendly. I always cross-check with Board Game Geek and NWS before making a purchase. BGG has some of the best info about potential purchases.
Thats what I do whenever there is a question. BGG usually has their stuff put together well.
I had trouble navigating the LnL website the first couple of times I visited so I can understand the frustration Bison.
MMP has one of the worse laid-out and downright un-friendly websites in the hobby - its a real chore to find what you want and get decent game info. They need to do some serious work on it.
Bison, this has been an issue for so long, that probably most game companies accept it.
I first noticed this issue with Drang nach Osten by Games Designer's Workshop back around 1975.
DNO only covered the first year or two on the eastern front. If you wanted to play a later campaign, or do all of the eastern front from beginning to end, you had to buy the follow on Unentshcieden game.
However, since GDW was a really struggling, small firm, they offered Unentshieden with or without maps. Given a choice to keep the price manageable, a lot of folks bought it and used the maps from DNO.
This was the first time I had run into this, but I think a lot of other companies saw this as an answer to keeping their costs under control.
Quote from: Bison on October 25, 2012, 06:36:47 AM
Never even hear of PanzerGrenadier before today. It does look like a lot of material.
The game system often gets a split decision. Some folks love it. Others, not so much. It does, however, get lots of attention and is worth a look as there are a fair number of games out there for it.
Bison: The CWBS is a very fun series of games. Check out VASSAL - I created several modules for some of those games of that series. Look at the new "Line of Battle" series as well, it updates the CWBS.
As for the websites - yes, that is frustrating. In this day and age where products are entered into a database that can have relational properties, it should be easy enough to configure the website to display all linked products with full descriptions and requirements for ownership of other games/modules needed to complete a series of games. I know, I create websites for small-medium businesses. The Geek uses a very robust set of databases obviously and it has this information within some of the "geeklists". It's a shame that you have to do some detective work in order to find this information outside of the manufacturers own website.
Quote from: GJK on October 25, 2012, 09:33:26 PM
Bison: The CWBS is a very fun series of games. Check out VASSAL - I created several modules for some of those games of that series. Look at the new "Line of Battle" series as well, it updates the CWBS.
I was looking at None But Heroes pretty seriously.
Quote from: LongBlade on October 25, 2012, 08:31:42 PM
Quote from: Bison on October 25, 2012, 06:36:47 AM
Never even hear of PanzerGrenadier before today. It does look like a lot of material.
The game system often gets a split decision. Some folks love it. Others, not so much. It does, however, get lots of attention and is worth a look as there are a fair number of games out there for it.
I've been considering diving in to it. I'm almost more scared that I will end up liking it, simply because there is so damn much of it available...
Quote from: Bison on October 25, 2012, 09:36:39 PM
I was looking at None But Heroes pretty seriously.
I picked up a copy and have applied matte finish to the countersheets. Still haven't punched or clipped them yet. We're waiting to get into a Civil War mood before we put it on the table (my son and I). That might be coming soon however; I'm fascinated by the battle of Antietam and the sub-battles that were fought there. I liked the CWBS coverage of the game but this should be even better. The orders system is very unique- you're not quite sure if/when/how your subordinates will follow the orders that you generate for them. Fun stuff.
Quote from: GJK on October 26, 2012, 07:10:16 AM
Quote from: Bison on October 25, 2012, 09:36:39 PM
I was looking at None But Heroes pretty seriously.
I picked up a copy and have applied matte finish to the countersheets. Still haven't punched or clipped them yet. We're waiting to get into a Civil War mood before we put it on the table (my son and I). That might be coming soon however; I'm fascinated by the battle of Antietam and the sub-battles that were fought there. I liked the CWBS coverage of the game but this should be even better. The orders system is very unique- you're not quite sure if/when/how your subordinates will follow the orders that you generate for them. Fun stuff.
The game's great, very playable - had me hooked the first time one of my units routed back though my line & created a tumbling cloud of fail.
Gettysburg's in the works AFAIK. I've got the brigade game (crossroads) but the added granularity of 3 Days of Gettysburg (also a great game), but with this system, that would be something.
Regards (again in a different forum!), Mike
Quote from: bayonetbrant on October 25, 2012, 06:12:58 AM
I don't know that they've even thought about it being a problem, but I could totally see how frustrating it would be. FWIW, PanzerGrenadier is just as frustrating.
While the inter-game requirements can get a bit silly at times, PG is readily available both new and used so at least meeting the pre-reqs is never difficult (unlike ASL, at times).
We have Panzer Grenadier series well-covered over at Panzer Grenadier Headquarters (http://www.pg-hq.com). The series is not for everyone, as LongBlade pointed out.
Btw, hello to all my old friends from the WG forums. :)
Great points about how publishers can make their series products more friendly to players. Thank you!
Quote from: Bison on October 24, 2012, 08:05:05 PM2 of the 6 scenarios are not playable with the map boards that come with the game. It's the 8th or 9th in the series, but you need the maps from the 2nd game in the series to play the scenarios. Again. WTF? Worse it's not listed at MMP as out of stock or out of print in fact its not listed at all. It was in the fine print of the NWS site thankfully. I'd have been pissed if I ordered the game only to find out 1/3 of the scenarios are not playable. Seriously this is poor marketing.
It's not limited to MMP. I've noticed it at other sites too. Why would they market this way? Its really a turn off.
This is something that LNLP has made it a point to change with their relaunch of LNL-Tactical. All the games are now complete in the box, with no dependencies.