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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: Compass Rose on November 16, 2012, 01:07:09 AM

Title: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Compass Rose on November 16, 2012, 01:07:09 AM
JTS just released the 15th title in their very popular Squad Battles Series and the first of its kind, titled First World War.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Fusers%2F7bb7d76195FirstWorldWar.jpg&hash=019a95ab8e44fb8bd1374108949217772bc32d69)

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Fusers%2F2c21dbaa3fFWW_1.jpg&hash=b52179a3bcd2ef46f1b19b9ffb3efd4584aaeb79)

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Fusers%2F10627be878FWW_5.jpg&hash=3dfb6fb79e56c43f85f69a193e356a2ee95fecd5)

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Fusers%2F16fe9e8067FWW_8.jpg&hash=e154d9a1bcca439b2eefbc4c7186595aa0413a80)

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblitz.org%2Fuploads%2Fusers%2Fd0f8be4f5fFWW_12.jpg&hash=dd043943608f18409f966c329243988d8cf8611b)

Campaigns & Scenarios:

Campaigns & Scenarios:

Features:

Changes:
Changes to the Squad Battles Series in this game include:

Full information about the game can be found on the JTS website here:

http://www.johntillersoftware.com/SquadBattles/FirstWorldWar.html (http://www.johntillersoftware.com/SquadBattles/FirstWorldWar.html)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 16, 2012, 06:54:18 AM
Holy Schnikey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I just got France 14 too.  Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 16, 2012, 06:58:09 AM
OK.  I'm calm.  I really am but it's not listed on the store yet.  I suspected it'll be released for sale later on this morning.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Jarhead0331 on November 16, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
Wow.  This is big news. Can anyone confirm if there is a Belleau Wood scenario?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: steve58 on November 16, 2012, 07:24:18 AM
This looks great.  I'll have to add it to my Christmas list.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 16, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
Wow.  This is big news. Can anyone confirm if there is a Belleau Wood scenario?

I'd say this screen confirms it...

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johntillersoftware.com%2FSquadBattles%2FFirstWorldWar%2FFWW_7.jpg&hash=22ebbbf46493429740ac727b1b881b8d3b3779cd)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Nefaro on November 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
You even get a .30 Chauchat to take with you, for luck.  ;D
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: jomni on November 16, 2012, 08:22:19 AM
Great news!  Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: son_of_montfort on November 16, 2012, 08:27:07 AM
It is like the 100 year anniversary of WWI two years early!  I was not big on the SB games before, I liked the idea but felt little connection to the battles. But WWI... Holy crap! Too... Many... Games...
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 16, 2012, 08:27:45 AM
This makes it official....it's an embarrassment of riches as far as WWI games. This one looks almost too good to be true!
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: LongBlade on November 16, 2012, 08:49:09 AM
OK, that's very interesting.

I can't think of another tactical wargame set during WWI. This is groundbreaking.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Zulu1966 on November 16, 2012, 08:57:30 AM
You might want to hang on a sec before ordering.

Just bought and its failed to send me the license key in the usual place - so may be they have an  issue.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Zulu1966 on November 16, 2012, 09:17:40 AM
Sorted now... the man himself sent me the key by mail ... presumably the store will / is sorted now.

Wow there is a regimental 132 turn scenario at Verdun.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: tgb on November 16, 2012, 09:31:05 AM
Can someone tell me how this compares to SC:WWI and CtGW?

<tgb runs and hides>
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Slick Wilhelm on November 16, 2012, 09:39:45 AM
Quote from: tgb on November 16, 2012, 09:31:05 AM
Can someone tell me how this compares to SC:WWI and CtGW?

<tgb runs and hides>

They're completely different. CTGW and SC:WWI are grand strategy. SB:FWW is WWI small unit tactical. There is no comparison possible. Apples vs. Oranges.

But hey, more WWI loving is a great thing. This is going to be my first John Tiller purchase!
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 16, 2012, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 16, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
Wow.  This is big news. Can anyone confirm if there is a Belleau Wood scenario?

No less than EIGHT Belleau Wood scenarios!
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Jarhead0331 on November 16, 2012, 12:49:52 PM
^Wow.  Must buy immediately once I get home tonight. 

@Steve - that screenshot almost gave me a heart attack! I'll be playing this over the weekend.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Marty Ward on November 16, 2012, 12:59:11 PM
How is the AI in this series?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 16, 2012, 01:24:19 PM
Pretty good.

I wish I'd kept a list of all those who, over the years, said WW I was no subject for a good game.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Al on November 16, 2012, 02:25:27 PM
If you go to the product information page for this game you can download the user manual, a getting started guide and the designer's notes.   The same guy that did France '14 for HPS/JTSC - Ed Williams - did a lot of the work on this game.  I never really got into the Squad Battles series - mainly because the scale wasn't my cup o' tea - but I may get this one.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Nefaro on November 16, 2012, 02:32:39 PM
Welllll kick me in the pickelhaub. When it rains, it pours!  8)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Nefaro on November 16, 2012, 02:59:42 PM
Also, can anyone tell me just how much this costs USD?  It's not listed on the info page.

Secondly, what's the specifics of the current DRM via the web store?  Does it still have internet activation required, limited installations, etc?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 16, 2012, 03:04:00 PM
It's 39.99 IIRC. I am thinking of getting this instead of Supreme Commander WWI. This would also be my first Tiller game.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Nefaro on November 16, 2012, 03:08:18 PM
Quote from: Gusington on November 16, 2012, 03:04:00 PM
It's 39.99 IIRC. I am thinking of getting this instead of Supreme Commander WWI. This would also be my first Tiller game.

I've probably enjoyed the few Squad Battles titles I've had more than many of the other JT games I own.  Not by a huge margin, but I do.  My first complaint is that, for a squad-level wargame, the scenarios start you off right at the point of initial contact so there's not much pre-battle maneuver.  That, mixed with the limiting turn times, makes it as much a combat resource management type of tactical game as fire & maneuver.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: LongBlade on November 16, 2012, 03:59:11 PM
Quote from: Gusington on November 16, 2012, 03:04:00 PM
It's 39.99 IIRC. I am thinking of getting this instead of Supreme Commander WWI. This would also be my first Tiller game.

Squad Battles can be an interesting cup of tea.

As a tactical game you're working with small unit tactics - the squad (obvious by the title).

It can be a little finicky to get used to. Stuff like crew-served equipment (mortars and MGs) don't automatically get used by a squad who walks up to them. You have to order the squad to use it through a bit of menu-driven contortions.

Also, line of sight isn't exactly intuitive. Once you get the hang of it it's a great system. But I wouldn't exactly describe the UI as easy to use. As it's your first Squad Battles game, I wanted to give you a bit of an introduction as it may challenge you a bit when you first start to come to terms with how it works.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: son_of_montfort on November 16, 2012, 06:49:13 PM
I concur with LB's discussion, and that is what is holding me from ordering it. The UI can be downright frustrating and, if we are talking about bad graphics, then SB is likely going to be the worst of the bunch. Does anyone know if this will run full screen at HD resolution?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 16, 2012, 06:59:16 PM
Yes it does SoM.  I just played around with it for a few minutes, but that is the case with all Tiller games. 

Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 16, 2012, 07:39:29 PM
Thanks LB.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Jarhead0331 on November 16, 2012, 08:12:37 PM
Holy crap! The shriek of artillery literally had me diving for cover! This is going to be bloody.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: jomni on November 16, 2012, 08:17:55 PM
Quote from: Marty Ward on November 16, 2012, 12:59:11 PM
How is the AI in this series?

AI is mediocre.  The series compensates through good scenario design.
Older titles are a bit wonky but more recent titles are good.

UI is old school but not really that hard to learn.  It's very similar to all Tiller Games (Campaign Series, Panzer Campaigns).
Though there's more to micromanage here (rally action, weapons and ammo management, stance)...
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: son_of_montfort on November 16, 2012, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: Bison on November 16, 2012, 06:59:16 PM
Yes it does SoM.  I just played around with it for a few minutes, but that is the case with all Tiller games.

I both love you and hate you right now, Bison.  ;)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 16, 2012, 09:13:23 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on November 16, 2012, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: Bison on November 16, 2012, 06:59:16 PM
Yes it does SoM.  I just played around with it for a few minutes, but that is the case with all Tiller games.

I both love you and hate you right now, Bison.  ;)

I'm feeling conflicted to say the least.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: son_of_montfort on November 16, 2012, 11:01:23 PM
I certainly don't need more games.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: LongBlade on November 17, 2012, 12:19:59 AM
Tiller's UI always drives me crazy in these games but he generally picks subject matter I enjoy and I usually end up liking the game in spite of the UI.

Jarhead's comment about diving for cover almost set the hook.

I've got too much on my dang plate right now, but I'm hearing the siren's song.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 17, 2012, 01:00:55 AM
Psst...it's WWI...WWI!!!
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Grim.Reaper on November 17, 2012, 07:43:31 AM
I would love to see a detailed AAR for this game or one like it in the series.  I believe I tried one of the games in the series, but did not hold my attention for some reason but yet this should be the type of game I love.  Maybe with an AAR something will click with me and make this a must buy for me:)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Jarhead0331 on November 17, 2012, 07:53:31 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 17, 2012, 07:43:31 AM
I would love to see a detailed AAR for this game or one like it in the series.  I believe I tried one of the games in the series, but did not hold my attention for some reason but yet this should be the type of game I love.  Maybe with an AAR something will click with me and make this a must buy for me:)

I could do that.  But not sure when I'll get around to it.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: jomni on November 17, 2012, 07:55:53 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on November 17, 2012, 07:43:31 AM
I would love to see a detailed AAR for this game or one like it in the series.  I believe I tried one of the games in the series, but did not hold my attention for some reason but yet this should be the type of game I love.  Maybe with an AAR something will click with me and make this a must buy for me:)

Here you go. 

I wrote 3 AARs in The Blitz
http://www.theblitz.org/aars/Squad-Battles/action=aars&lid=10

And here's one in my Blog
http://jomnisgames.blogspot.sg/2011/01/squad-battles-modern-war-operation.html

These are not about the First World War.  :(
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Grim.Reaper on November 17, 2012, 08:28:13 AM
Thanks Jomni, I will give them a read.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 17, 2012, 12:49:35 PM
I'll throw together an AAR.

I played the first few turns of a scenario today.  Good schiznit.  It'll take some time to learn how to effectively use the new chemical rules and accept the high number of casualties. 
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: son_of_montfort on November 17, 2012, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: Bison on November 17, 2012, 12:49:35 PM
I'll throw together an AAR.

I played the first few turns of a scenario today.  Good schiznit.  It'll take some time to learn how to effectively use the new chemical rules and accept the high number of casualties.

New... chemical... rules...

*head explodes*
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Staggerwing on November 17, 2012, 01:32:43 PM
Can you actually see the chlorine and mustard gas on map?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 17, 2012, 01:48:25 PM
Yes.  It's like the smoke effect only green.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: son_of_montfort on November 17, 2012, 02:31:40 PM
Quote from: Bison on November 17, 2012, 01:48:25 PM
Yes.  It's like the smoke effect only green.

Could you PM me your Credit Card number, Bison?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 17, 2012, 02:33:36 PM
Get the hell outta here...you can actually see the chemicals??
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 17, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: Gusington on November 17, 2012, 02:33:36 PM
Get the hell outta here...you can actually see the chemicals??

Yeah but they may have too many BARs.

EDIT: Iwas right; the BAR didn't see much service in WW I. They were produced but not widely distributed.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: LongBlade on November 17, 2012, 03:21:31 PM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 17, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: Gusington on November 17, 2012, 02:33:36 PM
Get the hell outta here...you can actually see the chemicals??

Yeah but they may have too many BARs.

EDIT: Iwas right; the BAR didn't see much service in WW I. They were produced but not widely distributed.

How granular is it? Are you seeing trench hand-to-hand with brass knuckles and all that?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 17, 2012, 07:22:00 PM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 17, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: Gusington on November 17, 2012, 02:33:36 PM
Get the hell outta here...you can actually see the chemicals??

Yeah but they may have too many BARs.

EDIT: Iwas right; the BAR didn't see much service in WW I. They were produced but not widely distributed.

I noticed a few BAR but honestly didn't give it much mind.  You raise a good point.  I'll need to look at the weapons data more.  Maybe a place holder from another game?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 17, 2012, 07:23:35 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on November 17, 2012, 03:21:31 PM
How granular is it? Are you seeing trench hand-to-hand with brass knuckles and all that?

Brass knuckles is not a carried weapon but you can assault into the enemies positions.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: W8taminute on November 17, 2012, 07:56:39 PM
Too many great or good games coming out too fast in such a short period of time.  Is the apocalypse near or something? 
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Staggerwing on November 17, 2012, 08:01:03 PM
Probably the 'or something'. If the Apocalypse was truly near then all of Shrapnel's games would be at least 30% off.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: rahamy on November 17, 2012, 08:34:19 PM
Quote from: Gusington on November 17, 2012, 02:33:36 PM
Get the hell outta here...you can actually see the chemicals??

Yes, and they have a PDT controlled chance of spreading or dissapating as well. Rather significant effects on troops hit with them too.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 17, 2012, 10:22:39 PM
Well if I could get photobucket to work this evening I'd post some images.  The tactics in this game are not a walk in the park.  I've only got 3 turns left in my current game but the hand writting is on the wall.  I'm not breaching the trenches this game.  1/3 of the map is a gas field.  2/3 of the map is lined left to right with pinned American forces right at the edge of the German trench.  It's was a slog to just cross the 5 hexes from my trench to the edge of theirs. 

Very well done game.  Once I get photobucket to cooperate I'll post some images and work on an AAR.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 18, 2012, 12:02:47 AM
^Awesome, can't wait to see some shots.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 18, 2012, 12:04:03 AM
I'm not sure if this works or not.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 18, 2012, 12:05:22 AM
I'm not doing an AAR that way though.  It breaks my concentration.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 18, 2012, 12:06:05 AM
Yeah the pic works.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 18, 2012, 12:08:51 AM
Well it's a crappy low quality image but you can see the green chemical clouds covering the left hand side of the map and all of the craters from the rolling artillery barrages.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 18, 2012, 12:09:40 AM
Yeah, well done. Eerie.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 18, 2012, 12:11:17 AM
Honestly I had some mental reservations about using chemical warfare even if it is only a consim.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Gusington on November 18, 2012, 12:22:45 AM
I would too. Mustard and chlorine gas don't generate a mental warm/fuzzy.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 18, 2012, 12:32:45 AM
What was freaky was watching the cloud spread.  It started off as 4 hexes and built into what you see here.  The otherside the gas dispursed rather than spread as rampantly.  It seemed to be drifting toward my lines and really limited what I could do with about 1/3 of my troops.  It disrupts your troops in it and also has some pretty significant reductions to movement, firing, ralleying and such.  It's unpredictable in how it will or won't drift so it's not a tool to be used without some thought as to the so what of it's effects.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: rahamy on November 18, 2012, 06:24:29 AM
On a further play Bison you need to target the bunkers along the lines with your gas attacks - those machine guns are "setup", meaning they have their field of fire fully scoped out and are significantly more accurate than a MG that just plops down and starts blasting away. Read over the "Getting Started" document.   :o
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Double Deuce on November 18, 2012, 06:33:49 AM
That "Son of a  . . ." I was trying to save money for Christmas stuff for the kids. Oh well, they have too much stuff already, a man can never have too man wargames.   ;D
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: rahamy on November 18, 2012, 06:58:22 AM
Posted by Volcano Man over at the Blitz, a way to get a free game.  8)

http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=63153
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 18, 2012, 09:19:40 AM
Quote from: rahamy on November 18, 2012, 06:24:29 AM
On a further play Bison you need to target the bunkers along the lines with your gas attacks - those machine guns are "setup", meaning they have their field of fire fully scoped out and are significantly more accurate than a MG that just plops down and starts blasting away. Read over the "Getting Started" document.   :o

Yeah the sad part is I actually did target the bunkers but I only got 1 out of 8 direct hits.  It was the far right one.  On the left, that's all chemical drift.  This game was not going to go my way from the very beginning.  I didn't even mention that I lost a tank to my own rolling artillery barrage.  I think I lost a second one that way too but I had the AI on fast process after the second turn so I cannot confirm that one.  :(
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on November 20, 2012, 03:31:16 PM
Nice website and forum here.  :)

Quote from: Bismarck on November 17, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
Yeah but they may have too many BARs.

EDIT: Iwas right; the BAR didn't see much service in WW I. They were produced but not widely distributed.

Yes and no.

Saying that the BAR didn't see much service in WWI and/or wasn't widely distributed is quite subjective. It was employed with only two months left in the war (so yes, it didn't see much service), and it was given to at least two full divisions and an unknown number of battalions and regiments within other divisions (so no, it actually was widely distributed by that time, just not uniformly so). So, it was certainly used in numbers, but it only happened at the very end of the war when it didn't matter much anyway.

That was the brief answer.  More specifically speaking, the BAR began to see widespread use in some units in September of 1918 (hence the date in that scenario being in September). According to my research on the subject, the 77th Infantry Division received them first, and then the 36th Infantry Division and this is also why you can see a BAR equipped Order of Battle template in the game called "US Inf Bn-BAR(36&77 ID) 1918.09". Also, IIRC, the BAR was used quite extensively in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive -- I believe a battalion or regiment of the 1st Infantry Division is mentioned to have had them as well, so the exact details of who had the BAR below division level is sketchy at best, so in the Getting Started scenario the 1-59th Infantry Battalion (being neither in the 77th or 36th ID) could of had them in September for all anyone knows. ;)  Besides, we are talking about the Getting Started scenario after all, where some liberties were taken in the first place for the sake of "fun" and showing off new toys.  Also, again IIRC, I don't believe the BAR actually shows up in any other scenario other than the Getting Stated scenario anyway.

Speaking of order of battles, there is also a 1918.09 Marine template with BARs as some battalions where known to receive them by then as well, but on a less widespread level than the Army I believe. Either way, that order of battle is present mainly for hypothetical scenarios, feel free to design scenarios with it or by continuing to use the US Marine Bn 1918.01 to 1918.08 until the end of the war.

I hope that clears up the BAR issue. Enjoy the game!

Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: LongBlade on November 20, 2012, 03:39:07 PM
Quote from: Volcano on November 20, 2012, 03:31:16 PM
Nice website and forum here.  :)

Quote from: Bismarck on November 17, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
Yeah but they may have too many BARs.

EDIT: Iwas right; the BAR didn't see much service in WW I. They were produced but not widely distributed.

Yes and no.

Saying that the BAR didn't see much service in WWI and/or wasn't widely distributed is quite subjective. It was employed with only two months left in the war (so yes, it didn't see much service), and it was given to at least two full divisions and an unknown number of battalions and regiments within other divisions (so no, it actually was widely distributed by that time, just not uniformly so). So, it was certainly used in numbers, but it only happened at the very end of the war when it didn't matter much anyway.

That was the brief answer.  More specifically speaking, the BAR began to see widespread use in some units in September of 1918 (hence the date in that scenario being in September). According to my research on the subject, the 77th Infantry Division received them first, and then the 36th Infantry Division and this is also why you can see a BAR equipped Order of Battle template in the game called "US Inf Bn-BAR(36&77 ID) 1918.09". Also, IIRC, the BAR was used quite extensively in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive -- I believe a battalion or regiment of the 1st Infantry Division is mentioned to have had them as well, so the exact details of who had the BAR below division level is sketchy at best, so the 1-59th Infantry Battalion (being neither in the 77th or 36th ID) could of had them in September for all anyone knows. ;)  Besides, we are talking about the Getting Started scenario where some liberties were taken in the first place for the sake of "fun".  Also, again IIRC, I don't believe the BAR actually shows up in any other scenario other than the Getting Stated scenario anyway.

Speaking of order of battles, there is also a 1918.09 Marine template with BARs as some battalions where known to receive them by then as well, but on a less widespread level than the Army I believe. Either way, that order of battle is present mainly for hypothetical scenarios, feel free to design scenarios with it or by continuing to use the US Marine Bn 1918.01 to 1918.08 until the end of the war.

I hope that clears up the BAR issue. Enjoy the game!

Hi Volcano! Welcome!

And thanks for that post. Very informative :)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bison on November 20, 2012, 04:36:47 PM
Well yes it does.  Welcome Volcano.  You designed an excellent game.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: son_of_montfort on November 20, 2012, 05:33:14 PM
Forgive me, but I was under the impression that BAR in a WWI trench context meant "Big A$$ Rat." As in rats as big as dogs.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on November 20, 2012, 05:57:13 PM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on November 20, 2012, 05:33:14 PM
Forgive me, but I was under the impression that BAR in a WWI trench context meant "Big A$$ Rat." As in rats as big as dogs.

Well, I am sure there were plenty of those too starting in 1915.  :o
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 20, 2012, 06:00:19 PM
@ Volcano

Good stuff, What are your sources?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Boggit on November 20, 2012, 06:41:08 PM
Quote from: Nefaro on November 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
You even get a .30 Chauchat to take with you, for luck.  ;D
For luck? You'd need it with the Chauchat.
Apparently, the open magazine left it very prone to jamming. Fine when the gun was clean, but in the field and ammo based on a black powder round ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qea0CVIQRE
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on November 20, 2012, 09:14:42 PM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 20, 2012, 06:00:19 PM
@ Volcano

Good stuff, What are your sources?

You mean besides the sources mentioned in the notes document in the Bibliography section?  ;)  Those are the sources I used most, and I am quoting those from memory, so I could have gotten something incorrect in the post above.

But other than that, I think what you are looking for is:

Chinn, George M., The Machine Gun, Volume I: History, Evolution, and Development of Manual, Automatic, and Airborne Repeating Weapons. Bureau of Ordnance, Department of the Navy, 1951.

It is sort of a rare book now, but it has some specifics about the BAR in it.  I just skimmed over it and on page 181 it states:

"...The combined daily production by all companies was 706 and a total of approximately 52,000 rifles was delivered by all sources." 

So, there is a useful bit of information on the subject: it seems that 52,000 BARs were delivered to units by the end of the war, which is quite a number. "Delivered by all sources" is referring to the Marlin-Rockwell Corp., Hopkins and Allen Co., Winchester Co., and Colt's Patent Fire Arms Co. (listed on the same page previous to that sentence).

Unfortunately though, I believe I was wrong with my OOB template: "US Inf Bn-BAR(36&77 ID) 1918.09".  Just skimming the book again and it seems that it was the 79th and 80th division that received the BAR first, not the 36th and 77th.  Then again, I could have gotten 36th and 77th ID from the other sources listed in the Bibliography, ugh, it is difficult to remember all of that now.  :o  Certainly this is a topic just begging for some dull book to be specifically written about!

edited: clarifications






Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Jarhead0331 on November 20, 2012, 09:41:21 PM
BAR schmarrr, who cares...the real question is: VOLCANO, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BEGIN MODDING WWI!?!?!

Seriously man, welcome.  Its great to see you posting.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: LongBlade on November 20, 2012, 10:27:35 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 20, 2012, 09:41:21 PM
BAR schmarrr, who cares...the real question is: VOLCANO, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BEGIN MODDING WWI!?!?!

Just ignore Jarhead. He's still unhappy nobody is willing to fudge the date on the Ma Deuce by a year so he can use one in his WWI games.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 20, 2012, 10:36:28 PM
I appreciate Volcano's response but will still dig deeper.

@JH
You, sir, don't have to write or defend reviews. If I snipe at the number of BARs or if some slime ball sporting a legal degree - redundancy admitted -  says I should have, I need documentation.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on November 21, 2012, 10:25:45 AM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 20, 2012, 10:36:28 PM
I appreciate Volcano's response but will still dig deeper.

@JH
You, sir, don't have to write or defend reviews. If I snipe at the number of BARs or if some slime ball sporting a legal degree - redundancy admitted -  says I should have, I need documentation.

Well, if someone is going to complain/snipe about the presence of BARs in the one Getting Started scenario, especially since it is a topic which is very difficult to find concrete data on the subject either way, then I would tell them to get a life. ;) Seriously though, it must be difficult for this hypothetical person to enjoy any wargame they lay their hands on if they are that susceptible to losing sight of the forest through the trees, and I do not imagine that any sort of explanation will dissuade their nit picking anyway. *Sigh*

In any case, I guess to be safe (because I don't want to keep having to look up the information I researched at the time), I will either replace them with the Chauchat or, better yet, just mention in the scenario briefing "consider them a hypothetical what-if every unit in the US Army was equipped with BARs by late 1918". No big deal.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 20, 2012, 09:41:21 PM
BAR schmarrr, who cares...the real question is: VOLCANO, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BEGIN MODDING WWI!?!?!

All in due time (I hope anyway). I just have a few more games in development to finish first... ;)

edited: typos
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Al on November 21, 2012, 11:24:10 AM
Quote from: Volcano on November 21, 2012, 10:25:45 AM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 20, 2012, 10:36:28 PM
I appreciate Volcano's response but will still dig deeper.

@JH
You, sir, don't have to write or defend reviews. If I snipe at the number of BARs or if some slime ball sporting a legal degree - redundancy admitted -  says I should have, I need documentation.

Well, if someone is going to complain/snipe about the presence of BARs in the one Getting Started scenario, especially since it is a topic which is very difficult to find concrete data on the subject either way, then I would tell them to get a life. ;) Seriously though, it must be difficult for this hypothetical person to enjoy any wargame they lay their hands on if they are that susceptible to losing sight of the forest through the trees, and I do not imagine that any sort of explanation will dissuade their nit picking anyway. *Sigh*

In any case, I guess to be safe (because I don't want to keep having to look up the information I researched at the time), I will either replace them with the Chauchat or, better yet, just mention in the scenario briefing "consider them a hypothetical what-if every unit in the US Army was equipped with BARs by late 1918". No big deal.


FWIW, I hope you keep things "as is".

This seemed to be a decent source that says the BAR was used operationally in WW1.  Several other sources on the net agreed.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_browning_automatic_rifle.html
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 21, 2012, 11:28:10 AM
Quote from: Volcano on November 21, 2012, 10:25:45 AM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 20, 2012, 10:36:28 PM
I appreciate Volcano's response but will still dig deeper.

@JH
You, sir, don't have to write or defend reviews. If I snipe at the number of BARs or if some slime ball sporting a legal degree - redundancy admitted -  says I should have, I need documentation.

Well, if someone is going to complain/snipe about the presence of BARs in the one Getting Started scenario, especially since it is a topic which is very difficult to find concrete data on the subject either way, then I would tell them to get a life. ;) Seriously though, it must be difficult for this hypothetical person to enjoy any wargame they lay their hands on if they are that susceptible to losing sight of the forest through the trees, and I do not imagine that any sort of explanation will dissuade their nit picking anyway. *Sigh*

In any case, I guess to be safe (because I don't want to keep having to look up the information I researched at the time), I will either replace them with the Chauchat or, better yet, just mention in the scenario briefing "consider them a hypothetical what-if every unit in the US Army was equipped with BARs by late 1918". No big deal.

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 20, 2012, 09:41:21 PM
BAR schmarrr, who cares...the real question is: VOLCANO, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BEGIN MODDING WWI!?!?!

All in due time (I hope anyway). I just have a few more games in development to finish first... ;)

edited: typos

Good ideas. I wish these people were hypothetical!
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 21, 2012, 11:31:10 AM
"FWIW, I hope you keep things "as is".

This seemed to be a decent source that says the BAR was used operationally in WW1.  Several other sources on the net agreed.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_browning_automatic_rifle.html"

A, nice find.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on November 21, 2012, 01:04:07 PM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 21, 2012, 11:28:10 AM
Good ideas. I wish these people were hypothetical!

Yeah, no kidding, but we all know better.  :'(
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Pinetree on November 21, 2012, 02:44:45 PM
Is there a list of scenarios available somewhere? I'm particularly interested in the Gallipoli ones.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Philippe on November 21, 2012, 02:51:17 PM
Read the designer notes, which are posted over at the JTS website.  A few pages into it you'll find a list of stand-alone (as opposed to campaign-driven) scenarios.


http://www.johntillersoftware.com/SquadBattles/FirstWorldWar/notes.pdf





Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Pinetree on November 23, 2012, 02:56:56 AM
Oops, I meant if are there any descriptions of the scenarios. I have seen that list before but thanks anyway :)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on November 23, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
Well, judging by your name, you want to know if any scenarios have to do with Lone Pine?  8)

If so, then yes, they all deal with the ANZAC. Here are the titles of the scenarios, hopefully that will help you (to post the descriptions would take a lot of time that I don't have at the moment)...

The Landing at Ari Burnu
The Advance to Gabe Tepe
The Struggle Begins
Only the Dead Hold This Plateau
Removing the Thorn
The Great Turkish Attack at Pope's Hill
Ordered to Die
Demonstrating Death
Lone Pine: Under the Top!
Lone Pine: "For God's Sake Send Bombs!"
Lone Pine: Where the Victoria Crosses Grow



Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Pinetree on November 23, 2012, 10:27:04 PM
Quote from: Volcano on November 23, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
Well, judging by your name, you want to know if any scenarios have to do with Lone Pine?  8)

Close  ;D I'm the other side of the ditch, My name comes from the nickname of a legendary All Black...

Quote
If so, then yes, they all deal with the ANZAC. Here are the titles of the scenarios, hopefully that will help you (to post the descriptions would take a lot of time that I don't have at the moment)...

The Landing at Ari Burnu
The Advance to Gabe Tepe
The Struggle Begins
Only the Dead Hold This Plateau
Removing the Thorn
The Great Turkish Attack at Pope's Hill
Ordered to Die
Demonstrating Death
Lone Pine: Under the Top!
Lone Pine: "For God's Sake Send Bombs!"
Lone Pine: Where the Victoria Crosses Grow

Awesome! Thank you! I'm guessing Ordered to Die deals with  the Light Horse at the Nek? Any Chunuk Bair scenarios? (I'll try not to bother you with too many more questions.. ;))
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Sgt_Rock on November 24, 2012, 12:05:05 PM
Congrats, Ed, on another fine title! Looking forward to more WW1 Campaigns games from you. Tannenberg?  ;)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on November 25, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Quote from: Pinetree on November 23, 2012, 10:27:04 PM
Awesome! Thank you! I'm guessing Ordered to Die deals with  the Light Horse at the Nek? Any Chunuk Bair scenarios? (I'll try not to bother you with too many more questions.. ;))

Apologies, I missed your question until now.

Actually Ordered to Die was a title I put onto a scenario that takes place on 400 Plateau, which is just representing a generic (and unfortunately typical) massed infantry attack along the front.  I was going to use it for the title of the more fitting Turkish attack on Pope's Hill (by Ottoman IR#57) but I figured calling that scenario by name would be better (ie. Pope's Hill in the title). The "Ordered to Die" phrase is of course from the famous saying by Mustafa Kemal to his troops.

As for the attack on Chunuk Bair, I wanted to make that scenario but I believe the reason I wasn't able to was because the map doesn't cover the area. If someone doesn't mind using different parts of the current Gallipoli map and just replace the labels then they could represent small parts of that battle, but I avoided doing that because I figured someone would have complained.  :o

Quote from: Sgt_Rock on November 24, 2012, 12:05:05 PM
Congrats, Ed, on another fine title! Looking forward to more WW1 Campaigns games from you. Tannenberg?  ;)

Thanks for the compliment. Hmm... Tannenberg?  Hmm, maybe, maybe not.   :P
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Pinetree on November 27, 2012, 02:11:56 AM
Quote from: Volcano on November 25, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
Apologies, I missed your question until now.
No worries  :)
QuoteActually Ordered to Die was a title I put onto a scenario that takes place on 400 Plateau, which is just representing a generic (and unfortunately typical) massed infantry attack along the front.  I was going to use it for the title of the more fitting Turkish attack on Pope's Hill (by Ottoman IR#57) but I figured calling that scenario by name would be better (ie. Pope's Hill in the title). The "Ordered to Die" phrase is of course from the famous saying by Mustafa Kemal to his troops.
Oh yeah, I'd totally forgotten about Kemal's order.
QuoteAs for the attack on Chunuk Bair, I wanted to make that scenario but I believe the reason I wasn't able to was because the map doesn't cover the area. If someone doesn't mind using different parts of the current Gallipoli map and just replace the labels then they could represent small parts of that battle, but I avoided doing that because I figured someone would have complained.  :o
Ha! probably ;D. How big is the Gallipoli map?Does it cover the Outposts for example? The NZ Mounted Brigade had some interesting fights there.

P.S. sorry for all the questions, the battle at Anzac is a particular passion of mine, and one of the few battlefields I've actually visited. Plus I'm currently broke, otherwise I'd get it in an instant and find the answers myself ;D
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: jomni on November 27, 2012, 03:22:43 AM
I've seen HMG being able to do indirect fire.  What's the historical background?
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Bismarck on November 27, 2012, 11:40:26 AM
Very historical.  Elevate the MG and the bullets go over small obstacles and get range.  The Canadian army was still using it in the '70s.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: jomni on November 27, 2012, 05:39:26 PM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 27, 2012, 11:40:26 AM
Very historical.  Elevate the MG and the bullets go over small obstacles and get range.  The Canadian army was still using it in the '70s.

Yeah I know that but now they act like mortars in the game.   ;)
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on December 02, 2012, 03:53:09 PM
Quote from: jomni on November 27, 2012, 05:39:26 PM
Quote from: Bismarck on November 27, 2012, 11:40:26 AM
Very historical.  Elevate the MG and the bullets go over small obstacles and get range.  The Canadian army was still using it in the '70s.

Yeah I know that but now they act like mortars in the game.   ;)

Well, take your pick -- there would be complaining either way (someone already cried on my shoulder that you cannot execute plunging fire in FWW, but little did they know it just is not something you can do in 1914 and 1915, by design). So yes there is the plunging fire capability later in the war, and the British can do it first, followed by the Germans later on, and in regards to how it works: I simply had to do the lesser of two evils within the limitations of the game's engine. :(

Anyway, plunging fire at the tactical level could pretty much fire where you need it. In FWW, it is really intended as something used only if the MG can see the target but friendly troops obstruct their line of fire.  In that case you can still fire over your troops and hit the target.  In regards to not seeing the target at all, and dropping it in like mortars as you say, well, good luck hitting anything like that. I mean, sure, in FWW you could spray an entire forest but after three turns of dong that, and probably not hitting anything, you would have wasted all your ammo and will need to rest the gun for quite a while for no gain. I think the lesser of two evils is to allow that to occur, because like I said, the terrain elevation differences at the 50m per hex level and map sizes just aren't extreme enough to really make it seem like you are firing over hills like mortars in my view.

edited: clarifications
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Volcano on December 02, 2012, 04:02:46 PM
Quote from: Pinetree on November 27, 2012, 02:11:56 AM
Ha! probably ;D. How big is the Gallipoli map?Does it cover the Outposts for example? The NZ Mounted Brigade had some interesting fights there.

Unfortunately the map only spans from Baby 700 to Pine Ridge in the ANZAC sector. There were lots of fighting in that area though. However, someone really could create Gallipoli scenarios on the generic (and unused) "Palestine Front-1" map and probably parts of the unused Beersheba map too, as long as they don't require a large ridge (in which case they could reuse parts of the existing Gallipoli map I suppose).  I hope that doesn't hinder anyone from making their own Gallipoli scenarios and campaigns.

Quote
P.S. sorry for all the questions, the battle at Anzac is a particular passion of mine, and one of the few battlefields I've actually visited. Plus I'm currently broke, otherwise I'd get it in an instant and find the answers myself ;D

No problem, I don't mind criticism or questions, I will try to cruise through here occasionally and read. FWW certainly isn't perfect, but I try to make things that scratch that itch that goes unscratched.  ;D
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: Longdan on December 02, 2012, 06:40:59 PM
I remember being told about using machine guns like this
just as Bismark says in the Canadian Army in the 1973-75 period.
Just like H&I artillery fire not so much to inflict casualties
(although that is kinda desirable) but to interdict the area
and restrict movement.  Even in WWI peeps were reluctant to wander
around in areas being randomly showered with MG bullets.
The gunfire will provide a beaten zone sighted or not.  Given the
physics and trajectories and the handling practices of heavier machine
guns it isn't practical to use them like mortars at all but you can fire
over low obstacles and beyond LOS.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: jomni on December 02, 2012, 10:31:21 PM
Thanks for the historical feedback.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: ArizonaTank on December 10, 2012, 01:00:46 PM
So this is my first JTS game (at least since they have been away from HPS). 

Is there a technical support forum somewhere?  I can't find one on the site.  My 3D zoom in view is all screwed.
Title: Re: Squad Battles: First World War Released
Post by: rahamy on December 10, 2012, 01:10:42 PM
Drop me a line at  Support  at  johntillersoftware.com