I recently read an interesting article about this prelude to WWI, in terms of tactics, weaponry and staggering casualties. Was wondering if there are any games that simulate it. Anything anyone can recommend?
Stormeagle Studios has a game. ATM their site is loading v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y.
I thought Totem Games covered that era, but it appears that they may stop just shy of the conflict: http://www.totemgames.ru/
HPS also has one:
http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/NavCamp/Tsushima/tsushima.html
Navy-wise, there is War Plan Orange http://www.matrixgames.com/products/326/details/War.Plan.Orange:.Dreadnoughts.in.the.Pacific.1922.-.1930 (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/326/details/War.Plan.Orange:.Dreadnoughts.in.the.Pacific.1922.-.1930)
MMP Have a board game on the whole conflict
http://www.multimanpublishing.com/tabid/58/CategoryID/1/ProductID/78/PageIndex/5/Default.aspx
Quote from: Steelgrave on November 29, 2012, 10:55:54 AM
Navy-wise, there is War Plan Orange http://www.matrixgames.com/products/326/details/War.Plan.Orange:.Dreadnoughts.in.the.Pacific.1922.-.1930 (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/326/details/War.Plan.Orange:.Dreadnoughts.in.the.Pacific.1922.-.1930)
Thanks. This one seems to fall outside of the scope of the Russo-Japanese war though. WPO begins in 1922. The R-J War took place in 1904-1905.
Quote from: steve58 on November 29, 2012, 10:51:54 AM
HPS also has one:
http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Products/NavCamp/Tsushima/tsushima.html
I guess I'm not overly surprised that this war is sparsely covered, and when it is, its only the Naval side of the conflict. Heck, until recently, our WWI options were rather limited. I'm mostly interested in the land combat aspect of the R-J war...specifically, how a smaller force attacked a numerically superior force which held higher, very defensible ground, and won.
FWIW, Pride of Nations has a scenario about it.
I think you can get some scenarios from TOAW for it.
There may be some mods for Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai. If you are looking for some reading try Rising Sun, Tumbling Bear.
I own one book on the topic.
Believe it or not, I bought it at a furniture store 20 years ago.
It's copyrighted 1905. I have it in front of me and will start leafing through it tonight. Will let you know what I find.
I have fairly thin book about the 1904-05 war published by Osprey. Quite informative and with some good pictures. I think I got interested in the subject after playing the Storm Eagles demo, although the game itself did not tempt me into buying it.
MMP's 'Tide at Sunrise' game look decent, although I gather that it deals primarily with the the battle for Port Arthur, and much of the naval side is abstracted.
I believe Norm at SES mentioned that his engine might include a land aspect at some point, but that was a long time ago.
I think the voting on Steam & Iron was favoring RJW next, but of course that's naval only.
Totem made comment that they thought RJW wouldn't appeal to their audience, but again naval.
Quote from: Zulu1966 on November 29, 2012, 11:06:23 AM
MMP Have a board game on the whole conflict
http://www.multimanpublishing.com/tabid/58/CategoryID/1/ProductID/78/PageIndex/5/Default.aspx (http://www.multimanpublishing.com/tabid/58/CategoryID/1/ProductID/78/PageIndex/5/Default.aspx)
The MMP game is very good. I've played it a couple times and had a blast. It's very easy to learn.
Quote from: Hentzau on November 29, 2012, 04:14:21 PM
I believe Norm at SES mentioned that his engine might include a land aspect at some point, but that was a long time ago.
I think the voting on Steam & Iron was favoring RJW next, but of course that's naval only.
Totem made comment that they thought RJW wouldn't appeal to their audience, but again naval.
Surprising - given what some of their games ended up covering - that the RJW was considered
too esoteric a subject is funny...
Quote from: Zulu1966 on November 29, 2012, 04:26:23 PM
Surprising - given what some of their games ended up covering - that the RJW was considered too esoteric a subject is funny...
Maybe the lack of appeal has more to do with who won the conflict.
Computer wise it is very limited but with board wargames you have a good choice of naval,land and the entire conflict. Check Boardgamegeeks.
" Rising Sun and Tumbling Bear" is a good book fairly new, but I prefer " The sun at rising tide? " it's a book that was published in the erly 1970s.
Quote from: magnus on November 29, 2012, 04:55:57 PM
Computer wise it is very limited but with board wargames you have a good choice of naval,land and the entire conflict. Check Boardgamegeeks.
" Rising Sun and Tumbling Bear" is a good book fairly new, but I prefer " The sun at rising tide? " it's a book that was published in the erly 1970s.
+1 many good boardgames on the conflict. I recommend GDW's Port Arthur.... Long out of print, so difficult to find.
JH, in regards to the land war, it basically came down to the organizational, and leadership issues that were endemic to Czarist Russia in the early 20th century.
Being on the end of the terribly inefficient Trans-Siberian RailRoad, only emphasized Russias problems.
Tacitcally, I'm not sure either side had a clear advantage, but the Russian artillery doctrine was outmoded. They followed Napoleonic concepts of close support. This allowed the Japanese to quickly establish a superiority over the Russian artillery, and they pushed that very hard.
IIRC Since the Japanese Army was virtually rebuilding itself into a 'modern' military force they borrowed quite heavily from Prussian, and later German, military doctrine in conducting land war.
Yes, pretty much what you have on the Russian side is a blueprint for their WWI failures, with many of the same cast.
As was mentioned the Japanese artillery had a field day with the Rusian guns. Many times the Russians even when they had dugout positions refused to use them for the guns. Then when they attempted to dig in the their trenches etc. they were visible for miles in the Manchurian earth.
On the other hand you have the second Japanes sneak attack with no declaration of war. For this reason I always doubted that the failure to deliver a DOC before Pearl harbor should be blamed on the typist.
The war saw the first mass uses of barbwire, searchlights and machine guns, along with many others.
For Japanese Navy perspective
Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics, and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1887-1941, Chapter 4
http://books.google.com/books?id=M-5feKonuNkC&pg=PA94&lpg=PP1
PON is the only one with the land war portrayed, but since it uses the massive world-wide PON scale and map as a basis, it's obviously a little one.
A TW Fall of the Samurai mod could be interesting (if there's one at all) but as with all TW games it won't be very representative of the real situation.
I have been eyeing that Kaigun book forever but its always pricey. Anyone read it?
FWIW, TOAWIII does have a R-J War scenario called Double Eagle-Rising Sun 1904-1905. This seems to combine naval action and land combat elements. However, a quick glance at the map shows the Korean peninsula only. I didn't see any part of the Chinese geography.
Quote from: Gusington on November 29, 2012, 10:00:36 PM
I have been eyeing that Kaigun book forever but its always pricey. Anyone read it?
Seems like only $22 at amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Kaigun-Strategy-Technology-Imperial-1887-1941/dp/159114244X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354245010&sr=8-1&keywords=kaigun
It's on my Xmas list. I already have the one on the airpower and it was great.
I wish I had been faster to pick it up when it was reasonably priced in hardback, as I'm sure it's a keeper.
(in reply re: Kaigun).
Sorry, JH, no input to your original question. I was going to suggest TOAW3 also, but it seems that's been covered.
I like to buy hardcovers when I can, the hardcover is a little more. What is the book on airpower called Toonces?
Gus-
Check here:
http://www.amazon.com/Sunburst-Japanese-Naval-Power-1909-1941/dp/159114664X/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354246279&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=sunburst+zero
The book is good. I got it in softcover, but I see it's not too bad in hardcover used (and in fact, neither is Kaigun depending on how nice you want it). I really wanted Kaigun in hardcover...I might have to figure something out.
Anyway, Sunburst is really good and I highly recommend it if you're interested in the full story of the Japanese development of their navy. If you haven't read Shattered Sword, then of the three books that is by far the one I would recommend most highly. I've read Shattered Sword three times and will probably read it again this summer. It never gets old. Just a great, great piece of work.
We're way off topic now.
Edit: Just realized that Dull's Battle History is the buy three books list. I can't recommend Dull's book. Although it has a lot of very good reviews, I have repeatedly fallen asleep reading it and have yet to get past halfway. It's a really good-looking book for the shelf, but reading-wise it is boring as hell. The Rising Sun by Toland is much better.
I found a reprint of my copy on Amazon. Tyler was a war correspondent. Written in a style that is very true to the period, but it looks like it's packed full of info since he was there when it happened.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935501054/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1935501054&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
One of the things I found interesting is that the author even as far back as 1905 he understood that Japan's victory put it on a headlong conflict with the US for domination of the Pacific.
Thanks Toonces, checking it out now...
Quote from: magnus on November 29, 2012, 04:55:57 PM
but I prefer " The sun at rising tide? " it's a book that was published in the erly 1970s.
I think you mean "The Tide at Sunrise". Indeed, an excellent book! I found a copy in a used bookstore a few years back, and it makes for very interesting reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Tide-Sunrise-History-Japanese-1904-1905/dp/B0045PGBMM/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354308913&sr=1-2&keywords=the+tide+at+sunrise
Quote from: Slick Wilhelm on November 30, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
Quote from: magnus on November 29, 2012, 04:55:57 PM
but I prefer " The sun at rising tide? " it's a book that was published in the erly 1970s.
I think you mean "The Tide at Sunrise". Indeed, an excellent book! I found a copy in a used bookstore a few years back, and it makes for very interesting reading.
http://www.amazon.com/Tide-Sunrise-History-Japanese-1904-1905/dp/B0045PGBMM/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354308913&sr=1-2&keywords=the+tide+at+sunrise
+1 I used this book in one of my game reviews.
If you are looking for insights into Japanese Society in this period, Clouds above the Hill, may be worth a look.
http://www.amazon.com/Clouds-above-Hill-historical-Russo-Japanese/dp/0415508762/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354385399&sr=1-2&keywords=clouds+on+the+hill
It is more in line with books on the American Civil War like North and South. Focusing on a few individuals, and what they saw and experienced throughout the conflict.
Clouds is only concerned with the Japanese experience, and while it does not glorify Japan's military or it's success, the book is clearly aimed at a new generation of Japanese who do not know their history. In this way, it can be very informative to outsiders trying to fathom how the Japanese nation did it.
The military details are way too few, and the style of writing is very elliptical at times. Probably a cultural way of viewing the nation's history.
Would not highly recommend this book, but if you want to get a deeper understanding of the Meiji restoration, and the transformation of the country and society, then it can be worthwhile
Hey, JH. The book I've been reading, Sydney Tyler's The Japan-Russia War seems to be paydirt. He was an experienced war correspondent who was at the front as the war unfolded.
I have skipped ahead through two-thirds of the book to get to the meat of the siege of Port Arthur.
First, the Russian fleet had been driven back form the port.
Second, There were a number of hills around the port with fortifications, but the most important of these was Hill 203, which was the highest hill in the area and commanded a view of the entire area. The Japanese attempted several times to take the hill, and finally managed in late November. I think that spells the beginning of the end.
Russia was attempting to bring its Baltic Fleet from the east to help relieve the pressure it was facing in the west, but I don't think it makes it.
I'm still reading will keep you posted, but I highly recommend this book if you're seeking a first-hand account: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0008BJDSG/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0008BJDSG&linkCode=as2&tag=grogheads-20
Taking 203 Meter Hill was a months-long struggle. Heavy artillery was used to pound the defenders, followed by infantry charges that saw heavy casualties.
Engineers then created parallel trenches allowing the infantry to move higher up the hill under cover. Eventually the Japanese won the hill, pulled their guns up, and unleashed them on everything below.
Taking that hill appears to be the decisive moment in battle.
If you need more LMK.
The remnants of the Russian fleet had been sheltering in Port Arthur's harbor. Once 203 Meter Hill was taken the Japanese could easily bombard them and quickly rendered five of the seven remaining ships unseaworthy or sunk.
Using mines the Japanese sapped the walls of Port Arthur, blowing holes in the fort.
I can give a blow-by-blow if you'd like but I think it's clear that taking 203 Meter Hill was the decisive moment in the campaign.
Its pretty incredible that the Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron sailed 18,000 miles, with no bases, purchasing all its supplies along the way, although Germany did provide some coal supplies. The squadron consisted of some 50 ships and required half a million tonnes of coal for the trip which took 7.1/2 months.
After all that, it was decimated in the battle of Tsushima.
There are a few books just on Tsushima itself that I don't think were mentioned above:
The Tsar's Last Armada:
http://www.amazon.com/Tsars-Last-Armada-Voyage-Tsushima/dp/0465057926/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354459699&sr=1-1&keywords=tsushima
Russo-Japanese Naval War:
http://www.amazon.com/Russo-Japanese-Naval-1905-Vol-Maritime/dp/8389450488/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354459699&sr=1-2&keywords=tsushima
I thought there was a book simply titled 'Tsushima' also but I can't find it.
Think this book has been mentioned before, but if you're looking for a really good overview of the Nineteenth century warfare, The Art of War: Waterloo to Mons, by William McElwee, is really good.
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Waterloo-Mons-William-Mcelwee/dp/025331075X
McElwee was a lecturer at Sandhurst Military Academy, and I think the book is the class he taught to the students there. Very readable, lots of unusual insights and stories that I've never heard of elsewhere. His section on what the European militaries learned from the American Civil War is very good.
A good, informative book that is available from Amazon.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 29, 2012, 10:09:43 AM
I recently read an interesting article about this prelude to WWI, in terms of tactics, weaponry and staggering casualties. Was wondering if there are any games that simulate it. Anything anyone can recommend?
Perhaps it has already been said but...
Regarding boardgames on the topic, try "The Tide at Sunrise" from MMP. It is simple and easy to play and some fun can be had there (solitaire works too). I always like wargaming the lesser known conflicts.
At some point I would like to work on a PC game on the topic, maybe based on the FWWC series engine and perhaps Tsushima, externally, plays a role on the outcome of the campaign but... so much to do... :o
+1 The Art of War: Waterloo to Mons, by William McElwee
Excellent book I have it around here somewhere.
Quote from: LongBlade on December 01, 2012, 06:53:00 PM
The remnants of the Russian fleet had been sheltering in Port Arthur's harbor. Once 203 Meter Hill was taken the Japanese could easily bombard them and quickly rendered five of the seven remaining ships unseaworthy or sunk.
Using mines the Japanese sapped the walls of Port Arthur, blowing holes in the fort.
I can give a blow-by-blow if you'd like but I think it's clear that taking 203 Meter Hill was the decisive moment in the campaign.
Another fatal blow was the loss of Admiral Makarov, on his flagship, to a mine.
He seemed to be about the only capable Russian leader in the theater. He whipped up the Pacific squadron, that had been hiding in Port Arthur for a long time, into shape and then sent the Japanese blockade forces running when he sortied. Unfortunately for the Russians, his flagship struck the aforementioned mine on the way back in to port and he was killed along with many others aboard.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 29, 2012, 10:03:45 PM
FWIW, TOAWIII does have a R-J War scenario called Double Eagle-Rising Sun 1904-1905. This seems to combine naval action and land combat elements. However, a quick glance at the map shows the Korean peninsula only. I didn't see any part of the Chinese geography.
Jarhead :)
Have another look at it - you might need to move the screen map around a bit, but IIRC it covers the Manchuria, Port Arthur area etc. If you want to go "golden oldie", try Age of Rifles which covers a number of battles - I think also as a campaign? (I'm a bit hazy hear since it's been years since I played it).